Comments on the US Rape Scandal from Other Forums

[Onyango Oloo]

From Kenya Online James Sang Comments:

From: Sang <sang2000@...>
Date: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: HON NGAITHE SENT PACKING

Bob,

During my lunch break yesterday, (Friday), I was chewing on a burger when a friend called me and asked if I had heard a rumour sweeping across the Kenyan grapevine in Washington DC. I said I hadn't, even though someone had confirmed it to me a little earlier. The reason I denied it, I guess, was because I had gone into denial mode. I did not want to believe anything of the sort had happened.

But later on at the watering joints, there was no other story but the latest embarrasment emanating from Kenya House. Even some Kenyan MPs at the bar had caught on with the story. It was then that I realized how deep this rape thing is in our psyche. That a person with the stature of Ngaithe has been accused of rape spoke volumes about the Kenyan men. This has truly become a disease.

Only last week, MP Njoki Ndung'u was hosted by the same ambassador, and among her paperwork, was the bill she intends to introduce in parliament on sexual offences. You could tell the seriousness some in the audience took her bill, by asking how it would protect men from the prostitutes of Koinange Street.

As crimes go, I think rape needs to be put in the same category as robbery with violence, punishable by hanging. If you can be hanged by violently stealing someone's wallet, why not when you violently rape a woman? Especially young children I hope the Kenyan parliament will pass Njoki Ndung'u's bill without any further ado.

Sang.
====

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "s_maina" <s_maina@...>
Date: Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:45 am
Subject: SHOCKED BUT NOT SURPRISED!!! ZERO TOLERANCE!! Re: Things Us Men Do!

Wenzangu,

Is it a WONDER that Kenya has not been able to deal with matters ofgender equality, sexual assault, sexual offenses and the CONTROL the spread of HIV/AIDS? Even DIPLOMATS fail to understand what "CONSENTING ADULT" stands for! The sheer disrepect for thewoman involved is NAUSEATING!! I am so HAPPY she had the courage to call the POLICE and let the chips FALL where they WILL! I am so happy HE Emilio was in-country! What an "opportune" time for someone to BREAK the law at a UN conference!! Can you imagine what goes on in the offices!! The woman has my UNFALTERING SUPPORT!!

[Onyango Oloo]

From: Ngunjiri <ngunjiri@...>
Date: Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:14 pm
Subject: Re: [KOL] SHOCKED BUT NOT SURPRISED!!! ZERO TOLERANCE!! Re: Things Us Men Do!

Dada Maina,

It looks like sex deprivation is contagious having jumped from Kenyatta, to Moi and most recently Kibaki's cabinet. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Unfortunately, this Ngaithe character will not face the full wrath of the law because like all his counterparts, the system will now close ranks as GOK's damage control machinery is put into overdrive.

[Onyango Oloo]

From: samuel ndungu <ndungusn@...>
Date: Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: [KOL] Re: Things Us Men Do!/Top Kenyan diplomat in sex scandal in US

ndungu Awurblaise,

Kenyan law says:-

Innocent untill proven guilty so we hope the Kenya law will take it course when proven guilty we hope the recomedation we<KCA members> made on this issue
will effectively be implemented.
Sam

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "awuorblaise" <awuorblaise@...>
Date: Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:32 pm
Subject: [KOL] Re: Things Us Men Do!/Top Kenyan diplomat in sex scandal in US

Ndungu,

"innocent until proven guilty"?

Indeed.

But why is the "very innocent until proven guilty Ambassador Ngaithe" being thrown out of his job, office and US base?

If he is innocent, why doesn't he just remove his 'diplomatic vest' and avail himself full investigation and fair trial in the USA?

That's what an innocent man would do!

He is guilty as charged hence wont subject himself to fair trial in the USA ... he much prefers to head home, where at least the Judiciary can be corrupted in his favour and against the best interests of justice?

Hope that you, wise old <KCA members> considered that too!

Blessings!


+Fr Awr
=========

[Onyango Oloo]

From: Mkawasi Mcharo <mkawasi@y...>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [kca-info] Kenyan Leaders and Sexual Offences: A Stop Campaign Press Release

September 19, 2005

To the President of Kenya, Hon. Mwai Kibaki:

RE: Kenyan Leaders and Sexual Offences

From the STOP Campaign Against Rape and Child Molestation: A KCA (Kenyan Community Abroad) Initiative



Mr. President, it has come to our attention that the Kenyan ambassador to the US, Mr. Leonard Ngaithe, has been recalled to facilitate an investigation where he is accused of sexual assault against his junior.

We, the STOP Campaign against rape and child molestation, find it appropriate to raise our voice immediately and resolutely in absolute and total condemnation of sexual offences especially those committed by persons in leadership. Our stand is not a declaration of guilt or innocence on any party, but a vigilante watch that the investigations be fair and truthful.

We also firmly caution that no party shall receive hush money to thwart the course of justice, or be made to
suffer undue victimization through loss of employment or any manner of threats.


While investigations have only just begun, we nonetheless deem it fit to write directly and openly to you because this scandal touches on a rising social injustice that cannot be ignored. We realize that in the past, offences of this nature committed by well-placed leaders who got away with the crime have with time become laughable legends while the victims continue to suffer.

Silence, complacency, and victim intimidation have bred more sex offenders. Some of the accused even acquire a perverted badge of honour for their "manly triumphs."
Why, Hon. Nicholas Biwott earned the title "Bull of Auckland" after he was charged with sexual assault in 1995. It is a reflection of a sick society that turns crime into honour.

Our leaders must set the example of integrity at all times no matter what the circumstances, failure to which they must face prosecution to the fullest extent of the law if their indiscretion becomes a criminal act. Rape is one of the most despicable crimes against a person, and by extension, a family. It is also a crime that can be successfully addressed through zero-tolerance campaigns, empowerment of the most vulnerable in our society, and a no-compromise enforcement of the law against offenders. Mr. President, we trust that you will join Kenyans of goodwill in nipping this cancer in the bud before we become a nation dotted with sex offenders from border to border. Their victims, who number in the thousands, continue to grow under your watch.


This scandal must also remind us Kenyans abroad to stand with the most vulnerable of us back home when local authority continuously fails them. Police officers and Chiefs are getting away with rape charges at every turn. Only this year, Mr. President, a ten year old girl gave
birth. She had been raped by a certain "Askari Sammy", a police officer who lured her to her fate. We call on Kenya's good leaders to ensure that our country does not become a backyard of fear and insecurity veiled behind a facade of economic growth. Social justice must be intertwined with economic growth and political goodwill.

We realize, sadly, that it takes a long time for our leaders to get horrified by social injustices happening right in their backyard, crimes they themselves perpetrate. It is reported that a recent Kenyan delegation to Rwanda was horrified and humbled by what they saw that had been the result of hate crimes and tribal vitriol. It is a shame
it took them this long to understand this. We hope that it does not take them that long to get horrified by the staggering statistics of thousands of children who get raped and molested daily in Kenya, with hospitals now unable to bear the burden of tending to them freely.
Part of the problem of "deaf" and "blind" leaders, Mr. President, is that they are cultivated through recycling thugs into government. This is embarrassing, unacceptable, and does not augur well for an anti-rape campaign that has everything to do with fighting against
those who assert power through violent means. For that is what rape is.

Finally, we Kenyans abroad know that we must actively be part of a sober and long-term solution. We therefore challenge the government to open doors of engagement with us towards establishing these solutions especially in the schools. The children of Kenya need empowerment,
enlightenment, and protection when it comes to dealing with sexual offences. The STOP campaign is composed of dedicated men and women who are ready to make this happen, for the sake of every child that deserves to become tomorrow's goodwill ambassador.

Sincerely,


Mkawasi Mcharo: Vice President, KCA

For: The STOP Campaign, a KCA initiative.

www.kenyansabroad.org, [e-mail]

[Onyango Oloo]

From: Mundia Kamau <mzima_springs@...>
Date: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:26 am
Subject: THE BULL OF NEW YORK

Michael Mundia
Kamau
P.O. Box 58972
00200 City Square
Nairobi
Kenya

18th September 2005

THE BULL OF NEW YORK

Ten years after the disgraceful “Bull of Auckland”
episode involving a high ranking Kenyan Government
official at the Commonwealth Heads of Government
summit in New Zealand, the pitiful baton has been
passed on to yet another high ranking Kenyan
Government official, the “Bull of New York”, following
the bizarre attempted rape incident that took place
during the just concluded 60th anniversary
celebrations of the United Nations. Eleven years after
former Nairobi Mayor John Kingori dramatically led 45
councillors in ousting then Nairobi Mayor Steve Mwangi
by way of what Mayor Kingori referred to as “Club 45”,
the 94 member Kenyan delegation to the said 60th
anniversary celebrations of the United Nations, has
taken over Mayor Kingori’s mantle through the newly
constituted “Club 94”.

Two incidents during one momentous occasion, define
the real Kenya. It is extremely difficult to take
President Kibaki and the entire Kenyan leadership,
seriously anymore.
For instance, the said 94 member Kenyan delegation to
the just concluded New York event, partly comprised
Gem MP Hon. Jakoyo Midiwo, a staunch critic of the
Kibaki Government, Hon. (Prof.) Ruth Oniango, another
staunch critic of the Kibaki administration, and
Zipporah Kittony, Chairlady of giant Maendeleo ya
Wanawake, and key operative in the previous regime.
Indeed Zipporah Kittony was one of two key operatives
then, who shed tears on the lawns of State House
Nairobi, on the day that Daniel arap Moi handed over
power on 30th December 2002. Others were a retinue of
obscure State functionaries whose role at the
occasion, is difficult to place.

The entire cost of the wasteful trip is estimated at
US $ 200,000, at a time when civil servants, teachers,
nurses, and University lecturers are being denied
salary increments, because of lack of funds, at a time
when many in this country are faced with famine
prompting an international appeal by the government,
and at a time when the country is faced with a
shortage of several key drugs, and other healthcare
facilities. Moreover oil prices have hit record highs
both worldwide and in Kenya, yet no plan of action is
forthcoming from the entire Kenyan leadership. The
Electricity Regulatory Board has indicated that power
tariffs will soon go up as a result of increased
petroleum prices, and it is just a matter of time
before similar multiplier effects begin being felt all
over the economy.

The situation begs for critical action and fore
planning, but in their place we instead have
government functionaries incapable of controlling
their loins both at home and abroad, a Kenyan
contingent of 94 that has just wasted US $ 200,000,
and opposing political camps back home who are
breaking the law with impunity, by directly
contravening a Kenya Gazette notice that states that
campaigns for the November 21st 2005 referendum, are
to commence on 21st October 2005.

We should stop lying to ourselves, and accept that
this country has become unmanageable and ungovernable.
Jungle law, cartels, anarchy, disorder, indiscipline
and abuse prevail, as the country goes to rot. This
indeed is one of the things that greatly troubled
former President Daniel arap Moi for many years.

It is extremely difficult to take the entire Kenyan
leadership seriously anymore. But then again, it is
extremely difficult to take ourselves seriously
anymore. When the late Hon. Tony Ndilinge was accused
of being the “Bull of Auckland” back in 1995, he
quickly came to his defence by declaring that he was
the “Bull of Machakos”, and not the “Bull of Auckland”
as stated. Hon. Ndilinge strongly protested the
misrepresentation, and not the representation per se.
How many high profile male Kenyans have passed away in
the recent past, occasioning the emergence of a
retinue of women credibly claiming to be either
co-wives or concubines of the deceased, and making
valid claims to the Estate? How many less prominent
Kenyans face this exact indignity on a daily basis,
following their demise? It pours scorn on both our
morals, and women’s empowerment in Kenya. Why did
parliamentarians attempt to callously sneak in a
clause into their medical covers, that catered for as
many spouses as possible, up to and including
concubines? Why did the Kenya Pipeline Corporation
streamline it’s staff medical scheme to cater for
cover of strictly one spouse for male employees,
following massive abuse? How many of us currently have
more than one wife, and a retinue of several other
girlfriends? We are just a nation of “Kenyan Bulls”,
and on this one count, the recalled Kenyan ambassador
to the US can be spared harsh criticism.

A nation with loose morals and loose loin control, is
a nation with no principles, and a nation where a 94
member government delegation can squander US $ 200,000
with impunity.



Michael Mundia Kamau

[kabonyo]

Is it true that the victim has also been recalled?

[Onyango Oloo]

Here is one newspaper report:

www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=29078

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "irene_ng25" <irene_ng25@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:25 am
Subject: [KOL] Re: How I take the Case/Top Kenyan diplomat in sex scandal in US

Fr Awour,

I see you are still preaching on the holy mountain:)
Mostly we agree on issues but this is the one time I don't agree with you Holy Father. You might have heard of a delegation that went to Inda from SA last year and among them was a prominent Judge as well as a 25-year-old human rights activist.

In short, the young woman plotted with the husband that she would go to his room, have consensual sex, then cry rape. It later turns out that the Judge was presiding in a case which involved the husband of the 25 year old and did not rule in his favour. In fact would you believe she even produced a condom for safe sex? She later dropped
the charges but the damage had already been done.

How did the two end up in one room )? Whose room was it?

I hope you also remember that Sir. Alex Furgurson(sp) was also set up and the girl became rich by selling the story to the tabloids.

I would say you never could tell just by hearing one side of the story.

IN

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "mrbob_k" <mrbob_k@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:20 am
Subject: [KOL] Re: How I take the Case/Top Kenyan diplomat in sex scandal in US

This what took place In the Rape allegation
From: Reliable source from Queens NY - Sun, Sep 18, 8:41 PM

Ngaithe and the alleged raped woman have been having an affair and this woman wanted more than just sex. she wanted something like material benefit or marriage. That woman, being single, is known for enjoying the booz and being reckless whenever she is drunk. She is single and only came to New York last february.

On that very day, she had an arrangement with Ngaithe to meet and have some few heineken. This woman lives in 27th street Nothern Boulevard Flushing queens.The drinking went on smoothly and consentual sex took place. During the whole hanky panky, the woman came up with the issue of marriage, Ngaithe said "it is not possible" because he has a wife in england. This is went the deal
went sour and a scuffle ensued and that is when she called 911. She claimed that she had been infected with AIds by the ambassador. The police took her to the hospital for some test, but they could not arrest Ngaithe because he has diplomatic immunity.

Now who is to blame here? is it the woman for enviting the man to her house? is it the man for having sex out of wedlock? And now that the case is going to be tried in kenya, will there be a fair trial for both parties?

kenya.rcbowen.com/talk/index.cgi?action=Article&article=10029

[Onyango Oloo]

From: Sang <sang2000@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:13 am
Subject: Re: How I take the Case/Irene

--- In [e-mail], "irene_ng25" <irene_ng25@y...> wrote:

> I would say you never could tell just by hearing one side of the story.

Irene,

I think you miss the point. First, if the ambassador is guilty as charged, then he should face the consequences to the fullest extend of the law. But the criminal part is only one side of the equation. While the rape issue is the most serious, there is another dimension in the whole saga - the ETHICS and the MORAL issues.

As a public servant, and above all, the representative of the Kenyan people in the USA, Mexico, and a slew of other countries in the Americas, Hon Ngaithe's conduct should be above reproach. Also, as a married man, he has a duty to be faithful to his family.

I need not belabor the fact that there is always two sides of a story, and only a court of law can determine wether any law has been broken. For a senior public servant, however, the question is, how did he get to this point? The fact that he got himself into such a situation means he has ethics and moral issues. It is therefore safe to conclude that Amb. Ngaithe is not fit to be our senior diplomat in the US or in any other country.



Sang.

=====

[Onyango Oloo]

From: sarar1987@...
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:34 am
Subject: Re: [KOL] Re: How I take the Case/Irene


Sang,

This is what the Republicans were saying of Bill Clinton ... they were saying that he had ethical problems (was not faithful to his family and so forth) ... and was not fit to lead this country.

If the ambassador raped or attempted to rape this woman then yes ... he does deserve to be punished. If it was not rape (as Irene suggested COULD be a possibility ... no one really knows at this point) and if it was consensual sex and then the issue is a superior vs. a junior and the issue of a married man having an affair ... is this uncommon? Of course, if it is a common practice (seniors taking advantage of their position and/or men having "side dishes?) it may not make the practice(s) right ...

Sara

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "Onyango Oloo" <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:01 pm
Subject: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?

i was ogling at my hour glass, calibrating how much sand would descend to the bottom half before i started reading the expected backlash/cruise control/ spin doctoring from those who believe that somehow it was, once again, the woman's fault. i am not even surprised to see other women in the forefront of participating in the cyberape
of yet another kenyan rape victim. remember the njeeri wa ngugi case and how she was trashed following her rape ordeal?

so now we have a conniving kenyan woman who was out to "get" the ambassador right?

and the usual sexist questions:

"what was she wearing?"

"what was she doing out there at night?"

"how did she end up in the same room with him?"

that is all BALONEY.

even IF she had gone in there to have consensual sex; even if she had taken off her clothes and opened her legs and he had put on a condom and started penetrating her- AND THEN SHE SAID NO, I DO NOT WANT TO DO THIS- and HE WENT AHEAD AND DID IT- that is RAPE right there,
Irene. Because RAPE is about ignoring the "No" the "SITAKI KUFANYA" "I SAY WACHA KUFANYA HIVYO" "NANI TUFANYE SOME OTHER DAY".

Trying to justify sexual assault on the basis of a man and a woman ending up in the same room is, to put it mildly, very insulting to victims of sexual assault. If, for the purposes of argument it is true that they did end up in the same room, what were the power dynamics between the two parties? Did she go there voluntary or was she coerced?

In any case, we are all trying this case here on the internet.

What should happen is that the man should be arrested, if there are credible grounds to charge him with rape; he should be presumed innocent and accorded the right to a defence counsel of his own choice; the case should be tried before a competent magistrate/judge where all the rules of due process and natural justice are observed.
in the meantime, we should stop trying the woman who may be dealing with some very traumatic aftershocks as we speak.

As a man, I have never had the misfortune to be raped by anyone- but MANY of my women friends are rape survivors and they have told me that often the most
difficult thing to deal with is when their fellow women disbelieve them or try to imply that somehow the rape victims "asked for it".

Onyango Oloo
Toronto

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "s_maina" <s_maina@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:21 pm
Subject: ALA!!!!!!! How PREDICTABLE! [KOL] Re: How I take the Case/

Bob-K,
I had a FEELING that a STORY like this would SURFACE--whereby someone or something would indicate that the woman was to BLAME in a way or the OTHER for a HIGH and MIGHTY DIPLOMATS ACTIONS and/or that THE
WOMAN is of QUESTIONABLE MORALS!!

Lakini, that does NOT matter--"No means NO" even if people have had sex several times that very DAY or whether you are dealing with a sex worker!!!

Besides, if the story of the affair is TRUE, the woman "ofquestionanable TABIAs" was GOOD ENOUGH for the Kenyan Ambassador to the United States to SEDUCE, PURSUE, WINE, DINE,and DESIRE enough to
JEOPARDIZE his CAREER for, what does that say about HIM???

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "mrbob_k" <mrbob_k@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:34 pm
Subject: Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?

Wuod Gem

You are right on the mark on this one. I can see some people who will defend a husband who rapes his wife. That fact that a woman is married does mean her husband can rape her because they share the
same bed.

Bob-K
In support of rape victims

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "s_maina" <s_maina@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:28 pm
Subject: OO wa Montreal Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?

OO wetu,

The assumption that a woman asked for it crosses many "men's" and women's minds in such cases. That is why we cannot go far with matters of sexual offenses in our communities! This story of a SCORNED woman is so so predictable--dont you think?
NSMC

[aeichener]

The comments by Irene and MrBob were quite expectable, alas, if we are honest.

No woman "deserves" to be raped. None. A sex worker is as much a victim of rape as a virgin schoolgirl.

But some women and men - and yes, that means you, Irene and Bob - would indeed profit from being raped, for some much needed attitude adjustment. They WILL quack differently afterwards.

Alexander

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "otwomad" <Otwomad@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?

Bob-K,

Of course OO was right on the mark. However, in a polygamous arrangement (usually the women agree in advance where and with who the man will sleep) such a situation is very unlikely to occur i.e.

> and started penetrating her- AND THEN SHE SAID NO, I DO NOT WANT

Most of the time is ´Karibu sana tena na tena na tena....´ until I communication with Sir G is established. That is why I still think that only a woman can be god. Or only through her does man access Sir G.

David

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "Onyango Oloo" <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:11 pm
Subject: OO wa Montreal Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?

To a certain extent, it is a refusal to admit that ANY MAN is capable of rape. As wanaume, we grow up with so much unchallenged male privilege, including assumptions about our "right of access" to women and their private spaces. And I am not talking about genitals here. How many of us men will reach out and clutch a woman to our bosom in a very intimate way, even though we do not have any intimacy with them?

So many women have told me that they wince when they prepare to give or accept a hug from men because some men will automatically rub their mmborros against these women in a very suggestive manner! Some of us men will paw women we do not know; attempt to smooch and fondle a woman who has graciously agreed to join us on the dance floor for a slow "brues" number and translate the fact that they have given us a phone number
or email address as an excuse to start sexual proposals often of a very crude nature. One of my friends here in Toronto was telling me how she has become estranged from a man she otherwise admires for his intellect because of this violation of personal space. Back in the days when I used to do underground work, many of my female comrades were scared of this "bearded Marxist" who was part of the leadership of a certain clandestine movement because he would harass female comrades who tried to find him accomodation whenever he jetted into the country for a visit; another one of my female comrades told me how shocked she was, when on arriving in a certain East African town for yet another hush hush session this other "comrade" insisted that they should register as "man and wife" for security reasons- but this was just an excuse to try and get into her pants.

My point is that the question of rape, sexual assault and coercion is a systemic problem in Kenyan society where we men are implicated regardless of age, ideology, ethnicity, class, race, religion or what have you.

I have expounded on this theme in one of my longer digital essays:

demokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2004/08/what-can-kenyan-men-do-to-stop-rape.html

Onyango Oloo
Toronto

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "otwomad" <Otwomad@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:30 pm
Subject: OO wa Montreal Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?

OO,

> How many of us men will reach out and clutch a woman to our bosom in a very intimate way, even though we do not have any intimacy with..

Kwenda zako. Every time I am in Kenya and that has made me only frequent Kenyan owned bars in Vienna, London and many towns in Germany where that (kushika madiaba) is allowed, especially na ´bar maids´. Its part of the treat and what makes us stay long, sometimes buy them beers and in rare cases collect them at the end of their shift.

> willpaw women we do not know; attempt to smooch and fondle woman who has graciously agreed to join us on the dance floor for a slow "brues"

Kwenda kabisa. Kwani if she does not want to be pawed she will stay on dancing with me! I do love fondling, especially if she is soft like a feather pillow. Additional joy being the warmth from flowing blood.

> a systemic problem in Kenyan society where we men are implicated

Hapo nakubaliana na wewe. Actually world wide, not only Kenyan men.

Otwoma

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "Onyango Oloo" <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:47 pm
Subject: Siendi Popote Otwoma wa Vienna

was that tongue in cheek or were you actually justifying the shika shika syndrome?

oo
to

[aeichener]

One of your best essays ever, by the way.

[Onyango Oloo]

From: sarar1987@...
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:52 pm
Subject: Re: Bob-A-isnt a man an adult male? ALA!!!!!!! How PREDICTABLE! [KOL]

Bob,

Sue has a point (in theory) that if the wife was with the husband then perhaps he wouldn't go looking outside. However, isn't it true that having the spouse nearby has not stopped men from seeking side dishes? I can't explain why men feel they need to have their full course meal at home and a side dish nearby when the full course meal should more than satisfy. My point here is that if the man is going to look outside his marriage then he is going to do that whether the wife is there or not ... it is just easier (in that he doesn't have to make up lies) for him when the wife is somewhere else.

[aeichener]

admin said:

From: "otwomad" <Otwomad@...>

Every time I am in Kenya and that has made me only frequent Kenyan owned bars in Vienna, London and many towns in Germany where that (kushika madiaba) is allowed, especially na ´bar maids´. Its part of the treat and what makes us stay long, sometimes buy them beers and in rare cases collect them at the end of their shift.

Well, one of my friends works as a Bedienung in a German bar; she is Kenyan (a daughter of the lake).

I can assure you, if you tried this on her, she would give you a long seductive glance, lick her lips sensually, then she would gently grip your most precious parts tenderly with her free hand...
...
and then, she would squeeze and pull them very hard and very long; she would crush them a bit more with the help of the other hand, and would drag you out of the bar by this convenient handle.

Like each and every of her colleagues would do.

Of course, if you only frequent brothel "bars", the customs there might differ.

Alexander