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Post by adongo12345 on Sept 22, 2006 23:42:53 GMT 3
By Adongo Ogony If there is one really shameful thing about the Kibaki government, it is their relentless efforts to take Kenyans for fools and idiots to be toyed with at will. It is unimaginable that after four years in office, after spending close to Kshs 400 million on a useless commission, after we have paid more than KShs 80 million in salaries to Justice Ringera alone, all we get from Martha in the name of fighting corruption is a miserable list of suspects. How pathetic can these people be? Did this list just arrive on Ms Karua’s desk a few days ago? Is this all that our myriad anti-corruption warriors and institutions has managed to put together? We elected Kibaki and his team specifically to fight corruption. At least that is what they promised us to get elected. We knew already that the previous government was corrupt and was not fit to be in office. That is not news to Kenyans. We elected Kibaki to clean the mess and set the country on a different footing. And what do they have to show for it? A list of suspects, which includes the Vice President of the Republic of Kenya? Of course Martha added the VP has been cleared after he “explained” himself, so we shouldn’t worry about him. Yeah, then why bother with the list at all? Why not just ask the other suspects also to explain themselves? Lets try to unravel this latest soap opera from Kibaki and company coming to us through the good efforts of Ms Karua. Why the list and why now? Why is the government sneaking this useless list to muddy the waters? The reason is that their guru in the fake anti-corruption industry Justice Aaron Ringera is in big trouble. Justice Ringera has been in the headlines lately for all the bad reasons. John Githongo, the old Kibaki nemesis with his good friend Prof. Makau Mutua told Kenyans Justice Ringera who went to London some six months ago ostensibly to get info from Githongo on corruption actually tried to intimidate the duo and warned them not to try going back to Kenya. Basically Githongo and Mutua were confirming what most Kenyans suspected all along, namely that Justice Aaron Ringera has been part of the cover up to protect corrupt people who are big names in the Kibaki government. Our grand warrior seems to be a big part of the problem and not part of the solution. As I said a long time ago putting Ringera to be in charge of the “war” against corruption was the equivalent of sending the fox to guard the hen house. That is a dumb thing to do and is very harmful to the poor animals. As soon as the Ringera expose hit the headlines the Kibaki insiders went ballistics. Ringera himself resorted to the tried and tested method of mudslinging, calling Githongo “a habitual liar.” Isn’t that the same thing Murungaru said when Githongo raised issues during his tenure in the OP. The often calm and reserved Ringera came out fuming and talking almost as if he is the modern day Jesus Christ being persecuted by sinners. “In the discharge of his duty, the Director liveth between the hammer of his friends and the anvil of his opponents. He persevereth on the strength of his conscience and his unshakeable fidelity to the law and the constitution of Kenya”. That was the sermon from Saint Ringera delivered at his press conference. Good Lord have mercy. Anyhow after the key figures in the Kibaki government realized the man they pay 2 million bucks a month to protect them had been busted, something had to be done immediately to get poor Aaron out of the news headlines. And it was Madame Martha to the rescue. She quickly dusted up some old list that must have been gathering dust in the cabinet and made grand promises of exposing those behind the Anglo Leasing. All of a sudden the media attention shifted to Martha who took a whole two days to prepare the nation for the big announcement. We waited with baited breath to finally see the names of the bad guys. What a disappointment it turned out to be to see the same old garbage being peddled as news and then Ms Karua tells the nation she did all these so that Kenyans can know that ODM leaders are also suspects. Well Martha, we knew that already and we elected you to put the thieves in jail and recover our money. If Ruto is a thief, lock him up and get our money back, we don’t care which political party or group he belongs to. You are the one in government today not Ruto, not Mudavadi, not Chris Okemo.The ODM does not run the government. If they are thieves lock them up, please. This nonsense of telling Kenyans that the Anglo thieves also include people in the opposition is not helping us. Kenyans expect their government to apprehend people robbing the nation and all we are being told is that corruption is an equal opportunity venture where new thieves have joined old thieves. A few days ago Martha Karua was telling Kenyans that her colleagues like Kiraitu Murungi and others named in the Anglo Fleecing saga are innocent and were being sacrificed, even though the same Martha endorsed the PAC report that recommended investigation and prosecution of the same people. If the investigation has been completed and some people found innocent why isn’t Ringera, at least in between defending his own integrity, tell the country. If the investigations are not complete, how then does Martha know who is innocent and who is not? Apparently very satisfied with her little gimmicks, Ms Karua was reported the other day telling Kenyans it is now time for those who have been named in the list to prove their innocence. How silly is that? Why the heck are we spending millions every month paying Ringera and his team if all that the government needs to fight corruption is to put out recycled lists and ask people to prove their innocence. What happens if they don’t? Should we just go and lynch them? I thought the administration of justice involves arresting suspects and proving their guilt in a court of law. Why are we turning things upside down? Is it because the government has no interest in fighting corruption as most of us suspect? I think it is becoming pretty clear that Kenyans made a big mistake electing Kibaki and his team in 2002 after they lied to us about everything; the constitution, fighting corruption, fighting poverty, 500,000 jobs a year, yada yada. We have learnt our mistake and now we are approaching the polls again. Karua and company are in a panic mode about ODM Kenya and a big part of their agenda is to convince Kenyans that even though there is corruption in the Kibaki government, the alternative is just as bad. I don’t think that is going to work, I doubt you can sell someone rotten eggs simply by telling them the other shopkeeper also sells rotten eggs. There is one big problem for Kibaki’s re-election plan. The two things the Kibaki team cannot win on are the failed constitutional agenda and equally failed war on corruption. Somehow the often confused Kibaki think tank had calculated that these two issues would be in the back burner come election time and Kenyans would all be rolling on the good times with the alleged economic boom. In fact some of the dubious opinion polls were already indicating Kenyans don’t care about the constitution anymore and all they want is development. We might want to revisit those polls again. The Kibaki agenda for the election year was to keep yapping on “development” and engage in high profile gimmicks of appearing to be addressing the problems of Kenyans. That is why the president had to personally hand over title deeds and be seen to be busy while others were engaged in “useless politics” and visiting foreign countries. And then as fate would have it, the constitutional debate came back to the limelight with a bang when the ODM put forward their agenda for minimum reforms which caught fire all across the country. Kibaki and his people at first tried their bellicose approach telling Kenyans to forget about minimum reforms. Soon they realized they may face a complete rebellion if they push people too much and had enough sense to start negotiations which they are trying to manipulate as we speak. In the midst of all this Barack Obama comes to visit his father’s country of birth and is given a heroes welcome. And what does Obama do? He speaks to the heart of the nation in one of the most inspiring speeches ever delivered on Kenyan soil. To make matters worse Obama’s speech is actually broadcasted live from the historic Taifa Hall to a captivated nation. Obama’s theme focused on the two enduring evils that continues to ruin the lives of millions of Kenyans, namely corruption in high places and the toxic culture of official tribalism that defines our statehood. Feeling the heat from the Obama speech, the Kibaki heavyweights went into an attack mode that actually backfired badly. First Dr. Alfred Mutua looked like a fool trying to belittle Obama claiming he is ignorant and is being used as a puppet by the opposition. Between Obama and Mutua Kenyans would know who really is an ignorant puppet so the whole nonsense was bound to backfire. Then the just appointed High Commissioner to the US, Rateng’ Oginga Ogego, a great friend of mine and a true patriot who has done a lot for his country, was dragged into the debate and probably asked to write a letter condemning Obama. Rateng’ did his job and came out looking pretty bad. First he had not even handed in his papers to George Bush. Secondly he tries accusing Obama of seeking “cheap publicity” when the whole world knows Obama had more publicity than the Kenyan head of state right from the day he set foot in Kenya. The whole thing has actually led to a disastrous start of Rateng’s mission in the Mecca of world politics. Hopefully Rateng’ will recover and be as effective as he was here in Canada. Before things could cool down, Githongo was back in the picture taking the battle straight to the doors of President Kibaki and that is how we ended up with the Martha Karua soap opera. The end result is that the constitution and corruption have become the major items in the battle for State House and for the hearts and minds of Kenyans as we approach the big day of 2007 General Elections. Add the desire by Kenyans to put an end to tribalism in State House and we have a situation where it will take a miracle for President Kibaki to get re-elected. Those who conned their way into the government with false pretenses in 2002 should know their time is up. If I were Kibaki I would just call it a day come 2007 and go take a rest because all that awaits him is a humiliating defeat. It is coming big time. [ Those coming in after the Kibaki debacle, should know the same fate awaits them if they screw us up the same way Kibaki and his people have been doing since we put them in power. It is time for Wanjiku to speak once again and we can almost feel the wanasiasa tetemekaring with anxiety. Yap, Wembe ni ule ule and the wananchi are going to show no mercy. Those who have been abusing the masses as “pumbavu” and “mafi ya kuku” now have to come down from their high towers and talk to Kenyans. We are eagerly waiting for that discussion. It is going to be fun, isn't it? The writer is a human rights activist.
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Post by mossad on Sept 23, 2006 23:35:01 GMT 3
Iam not even sure why Martha is blaming the ODM for a scandal that happened under the Kibaki administration. If we can go back to what Githongo reported, he clearly stated that anglo leasing was a kibaki affair and blamimg others who were never in the position to determind the Anlgo leasing deals is just purely stupid. I think their(Kibaki) strategy of wnning elections has run out and now they'd love to go down with everybody else. This too will fail and i hope the next govt will prosecute those involved as the scandal is still fresh in our minds.
Mossad.
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Post by kamalet on Sept 24, 2006 15:28:13 GMT 3
Let us try a bit of honesty here.
Martha has not said anything new in the list she read out as the projects have repeatedly appeared in the media. All she has done is proceed in exactly the same manner the ODM-ers have been going. If you are a minister in the NARC government and your ministry was responsible for the signature of ony of these contracts, then you should step aside.
Martha has gone through the list and using the argument above, has named all those responsible for the authorisation of the contracts, i.e. the ministers and their permanent secretaries. Now, a sword cuts both ways, and it was predictable that the ODM-ers would attribute a political motive by Karua in linking their leading lights' names to some of the contracts.
What is important is that merely naming a minister or permanent secretary is not a conclusion of guilt. But should anyone mentioned not step aside from public office whether in government or opposition? Kenyans made these demands on Kibaki to shed such ministers and they have left bar the VP and Nyachae! If Kibaki can find a way of getting rid of these two, then he can claim that he now has a clean cabinet!!
So why are these ODM-ers finding it difficult to step aside from their presidential aspirations until they can get cleared in one form or other? Or should we go by the comment by LDP secretary Kamotho that KANU (from which all these ODM dreamers came from!!!) had never declared that it was anti-corruption, thus the problem should die with Kibaki's thieves being herded out of office?
The fact that we refuse to see thieves in Ruto, Mudavadi, Raila, Okemo and Kalonzo is the truest form of political denial. Will Kenyans be fooled?
I do not think so!
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 25, 2006 8:42:31 GMT 3
Kamale, Your arguments are as pedestrian as they are uneducated. Why do you defend the undefensible? You see, that is the difference between you NARKies and Baknistas and the rest of US. WE HAVE A SENSE OF INTROSPECTION! Kama ni mbaya we say so, if our Kin ametukoseya we say so!. You? NEVER !
You want THE ODMers to stand aside and put their presidential ambitions aside until cleared? Cleared by who? KACC? Wako? Arent these the guys with the "evidence"? As AO put it, it is wakina Karua who call the shots! Its been 2-4yrs, and who have they prosecuted? NADA!
Why should anyone volunteer to be prosecuted? Doesnt our consititution defective as it may be say that the onus of proof lies with the acusing body i.e the GOVT?
You are arguing for the sake of generating smoke where there is none, instead of looking at who is responsible for prosecuting alleged thieves.
BTW, Kenyans wont be fooled. Your guys tried it in the referendum and failed miserably. And there is something going on in the people's conscience I tell you!.
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Post by aeichener on Sept 25, 2006 11:58:47 GMT 3
Adongo:
I have no doubt that the "non-recorded" tapes did not happen due to Murphy's Law or by a curious happenstance coupled with incompetence.
I have also no doubt that Ringera himself was honest in his press release (you *have* read the original, all 7 pages, haven't you? they are available via the KACC website...) when he stated that there was no foul play by him, and that he was startled himself.
Lastly, I think you can guess the reason for the presumed / alleged foul play within KACC. If not, just think of Gideon Were's sacking, and the *real* reasons for it.
Alexander
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Post by kamalet on Sept 25, 2006 14:05:19 GMT 3
Kamale, Your arguments are as pedestrian as they are uneducated. Why do you defend the undefensible? You see, that is the difference between you NARKies and Baknistas and the rest of US. WE HAVE A SENSE OF INTROSPECTION! Kama ni mbaya we say so, if our Kin ametukoseya we say so!. You? NEVER ! You want THE ODMers to stand aside and put their presidential ambitions aside until cleared? Cleared by who? KACC? Wako? Arent these the guys with the "evidence"? As AO put it, it is wakina Karua who call the shots! Its been 2-4yrs, and who have they prosecuted? NADA! Why should anyone volunteer to be prosecuted? Doesnt our consititution defective as it may be say that the onus of proof lies with the acusing body i.e the GOVT? You are arguing for the sake of generating smoke where there is none, instead of looking at who is responsible for prosecuting alleged thieves. BTW, Kenyans wont be fooled. Your guys tried it in the referendum and failed miserably. And there is something going on in the people's conscience I tell you!. Pmaniac, Then your reading must be as pedestrian as my arguments!!! You certainly did not read what I wrote....tuliza boli and re-read what I said! No one is being prosecuted just yet, but surely shouldn't the ODM-ers lead the way by stepping aside from their political ambitions as a sign that they can take political responsibility for the actions of their ministries? To you, it is okay for Ruto to be having presidential ambitions even with a criminal case hanging over his head for corruption - and he actually talks about corrupt people in this government? In your view, there are two standards here. It is okay for Kiraitu to resign his position for once his name was mentioned by Githongo but it is not okay for say Ruto to remove himself from political office ambition when he has a case in court for corruption or even Mudavadi to step aside from his ambitions for his role in some of the scandals - even if not criminal? This is what YOU demanded of Murungaru or even Awori when they had not signed any contracts though these passed through their ministries. Does the demand change now that some of those you support are being called to account? You must stay consistent to be taken seriously!!!!! My view is that once you are mentioned in a scandal, you step aside. We are not talking about criminal culpability but political responsibility! As a commentator said yesterday, Karua may have political motives for the naming of ODM-ers as well as her own colleagues - but that does not take away the fact that each one of these leaders have a responsibility to Kenyans to show they are clean and can provide such leadership! I think your problem is that you are thinking like a politician seeking survival hence the double speak! If you want ODM to give Kenyans any hope, then you must start some form of internal cleansing then we can take ODM seriously - otherwise it will only fortify my view that just like NARC, ODM is a case of same monkeys but different trees!
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Post by roughrider on Sept 25, 2006 18:15:28 GMT 3
Kamale you are DEAD wrong.
To say that someone should not vie for an ELECTIVE office because he or she is allegedly a thief is to LAUGH at democracy in the face and to INSULT voters. For the essence of voting is to show confidence or lack of it in leaders. Voters should vote against alleged thieves, if they are convinced those claims are true…
But people who are already in office and feel their confidence is ebbing, perhaps due to scandals dogging their office or even the loss of a referendum; in a democracy, should resign and SEEK THAT FRESH MANDATE… we cannot stop Kiraitu Murungi from running for ELECTIVE public office, because voters might show that, in spite of his wrong-doing they still have confidence in him. However, if already in public office we would require those of questionable character to step aside and re-confirm that confidence by submitting to fresh elections.
Ever heard of governments resigning in the face of scandal, difficulty or failure, and getting re-elected with clear mandates? – only recently Juniichiro Koizumi pulled that one off with the LDP in Japan.
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Post by roughrider on Sept 25, 2006 18:19:30 GMT 3
Adongo – your arguments are interesting.
I’d like to say that, if in fact there is reason for mere lists to be made public then we ought to be given a more comprehensive list stretching all the way back to 1963 showing who signed what quetionable project in government. Corruption - as you all know - did not begin the other day with Anglo Leasing or Goldenberg. From the 60’s and 70's we had some spectacular cases and these need to be listed as well....
The list on land related transgressions needs to be updated to show the Maasai and other land grievances in Laikipia, Central, Rift Valley, Coast right from when the land troubles began.
I can tell you for free that Karua may not be seeing what lies beneath the Pandoras Box she has just opened... but when it hits the fan, i dont wanna be there.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 25, 2006 18:38:09 GMT 3
Kamale Your arguments defy logic. Its painful to read a piece like this purportedly written by a thoughtful person. It borders on the absurd, if not outright stupid ( I hate using this word esp with reference to you as I believe you are a honorable man, but I cant find a substitute).
Still why should the ODMers stand aside? What have they done? Who has proved it? Has Karua determined that they are guilty of something? or has KACC done? And if we extend your argument shouldnt the sloth and his henchmen stand aside too?
See below what some of NARKies are saying in so far as reignations are concerned.
Minister tells V-P, Nyachae to quit over scandal By Benard Onyari Immigration Assistant minister Annaniah Mwaboza has called for the resignation of Vice-President Moody Awori and Roads and Public Works minister Simon Nyachae to pave way for investigations of their role in Anglo leasing scandal.
Mwaboza said it was in order for the two to step aside to save the image of the government and their own. He said in a democratic country, such a step to resign was in order after individuals were adversely named in a corruption scam of that magnitude for probe to be conducted freely.
He said the Government image would be tainted if those named by the Justice and Constitutional minister Martha Karua insist on clinging to public offices.
“It is only good for those named in the Karua list of shame to step a side so that investigations could be curried out. It would be wrong for them to hold public offices while the investigations were on,” said Mawaboza.
The assistant minister further averred that if those mentioned would be found guilt they should be banned from holding any other public office in the country. Mwaboza, who is Kisauni legislator said if the ministers named in the Karua list are found innocent upon the completion of investigation by the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission then they should be reinstated.
Ms Karua last week released names of those she claimed were in office when the Anglo Leasing contracts were signed. While revealing the list, which touched both the government side and the opposition, Ms Karua said the individuals either signed the contracts or were in the office while the deal was being hatched.
The assistant minister, who made the remarks while presiding over a free medical service in his constituency yesterday, said there was no collective responsibility in the government when it comes to corruption.
He said the government would not protect any individual found guilty of corruption and asked those named to carry their own cross.
He was, however, quick to add that he was not condemning other government officers, adding that if they would be found not guilty after investigations he would be ready to work with them. Mwabodza is the first minister in the so-called government of the national unity to demand for the resignation of the minister implicated in Karua list.
Early this month in our sister publication, the Sunday Times reported a rift between the old guards in government who are said to be against the prosecution of the culprits of the corruption cases. It pointed out that the fight against graft was being pushed forward, by young turks in the government, led by Ms Karua and Danson Mungatana.
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Post by adongo12345 on Sept 25, 2006 22:55:15 GMT 3
Just a few more things bugging me. One is this story here on www.nationmedia.com/dailynation/nmgcontententry.asp?category_id=1&newsid=82101Like everybody else my concern is that the stupid list, which soon will be followed by a republishing of the Ndung'u report for the umpteenth time and may be another call to re-investigate the Molasses plant in Kisumu was to cover Ringera's behind which is beginning to stink the whole joint. I find this story telling for two things. One is that like Alex said, the missing tapes may not be an accident. I mean it is nuts to think that serious investigators conducting a critical interview would record staff for two days running without bothering to check their equipment. Even kids in my beloved Bondo village, when recording those hideous tapes with more noise than music would at least test their tools before they store the tapes away. Rule number one in recording anything of substance is ----Testing Testing. For Ringera to tell Kenyans he lost what is turning out to be very useful material adds to the increasing list of acts of dereliction of duty on his part. Besides, can Ringera at least remember what was said at this meeting? What actions, if any has he taken with whatever data he gathered? Seems he can't even remember, or rather is denying what he himself said? The second significant thing in that story is that a third person, one of the senior most investigators in the team, Mr. Were (who has since been fired) has come out to corroborate what both Githongo and Mutua have said. Ringera had argued he wouldn't have been naive enough to threaten Githongo and Mutua in a meeting with other people. What does he have to say about what Mr. Were is saying. Who sounds more credible - Ringera or the three others? The bottom line here is that Ringera has a lot to explain and actually should quit. By the way while I think the ODM call for Ringera to be fired is fine I think their approach is too bellicose and could backfire on them. I hate that Matiba kind of politics. Remember when Matiba would give Moi a few days and sometimes weeks to quit State House or he would go and evict him? It is part of the folklore that made Matiba everybody's laughing stock. The ODM can do better than that. The President cannot just fire Ringera. There has to be a tribunal to do that. Ringera is already dead meat politically, don't waste too much political capital on him. The more he sits there the more exposure on him we will get. He is a useless piece of used rag by Kibaki. The real battle is to figure out who is he protecting. My sense is that this Anglo thing goes right to Kibaki. With all the possible damage this thing could do to the opposition, Kibaki would have been very eager to take action. Now he knows he must cut his nose to spite his face. I am glad I am not in his position. The bottom line is that with the emergence of lists of people whom even the government says are probably innocent, we can say quite authoritatively that the Kibaki team is finally waving the surrender flag on the "war" against corruption. The war against corruption is now officially dead and buried. Of course the anti-corruption gravy train is raking in more money than ever. Who needs the corrupt when those pretending to fight corruption can bring cash by the sacks. Good for them, but their days are numbered. Will the ODM fight corruption? May be and then again may be not. No, my friends, it is the people of Kenya who will and must fight corruption. We start that war by making sure we do not elect corrupt people. Easier said than done, yes, but that is where the war starts. The reason the Kibaki ship is going down faster than the titanic is because they not only failed to fight corruption as promised, but they have made it worse. The mere fact that Kenyans have warmed up to old Kanu hands like Ruto, Kalonzo, Uhuru etc says more about the absolute failure of the Kibaki regime than the gullibility of Kenyans as some suggest. The ODM has a big challenge on this one. Assuming they form the next government, which is very likely, they could have even a shorter honeymoon with Kenyans unless they get their act right on the corruption battle. My suspicion is that they will attempt to mesmerize the population with the new constitution and hope that everything else would be swept aside. How can the ODM fight corruption when so many of its leadership have been entangled in the corruption industry? I think they can, if they are genuine and are ready to make a break with their own past histories. If the Kibaki people did not start stealing our money soon after they took office and instead put in place genuine structures to end all corruption Kenyans would have embraced them even when we knew there were a lot of past thieves in their government. If the ODM comes in clean and clear and make an attempt not to rob one more penny from the public coffers Kenyans will embrace them like we have never seen before, because that will be the first time our country would be blessed with such a government after some forty odd years of independence. That is the opportunity we gave Kibaki and he pooed rather badly on it. The ODM's problem would what to do with past crimes, but honestly that is the problem for the whole country and with a honest government we will find a solution. Other countries have done it. My idea has been to go the Truth Justice and Reconciliation route while avoiding what South African veteran activist, and now Justice of the Constitutional Court of South Africa, Albie Sachs said below about the South African TJRC. "The real problems with reconciliation is that when the killers left the proceedings, they drove off to their fancy houses with swimming pools, while the victims went off to their shacks" I am sure other Kenyans have different ideas. My point is that if the ODM can learn from kIbaki's many blunders and give Kenyans a clean and honest government they will be just fine. If they come in and start their own Anglo fleecing and try to defend themselves by saying the Kibaki people were also robbers, they will be doomed just as Kibaki is right now. Adongo. One more thing. Can someone ask Ms Karua, now that she is in the mood of providing names to tell Kenyans the name of the person or persons who wired back billions of shillings to the government after the Anglo scam was exposed. At least we know for a fact that is a person we would want to take to court. Now you see why I say the whole thing is a sham. They keep the name of the sure criminal and give us names of politicians who may or may not be guilty.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 25, 2006 23:22:53 GMT 3
AO If ODM forms the next GOVT they have to do a better job against corruption. Full stop. Retroactive investigations will be the nightmare as it will be faced with a dilemma of dealing with innuendo mixed with facts, in so far as the present ODM line up is concerned and their past dealings.
Something needs to be done to recover the monies lost. Either these theives give it up and they are forgiven, or they face aggresive prosecution.
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Post by aeichener on Sept 26, 2006 2:21:57 GMT 3
The second significant thing in that story is that a third person, one of the senior most investigators in the team, Mr. Were (who has since been fired) has come out to corroborate what both Githongo and Mutua have said. Oops. Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaareful. Didn't you get my hint? Was I not clear enough already?! Alexander P.S. (*sigh*): There were no tapes. None. Thus, no possible tape tests, as you guessed. KACC used a CD burner to capture - or rather, not to capture - the interview.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 26, 2006 4:17:51 GMT 3
Aeichner I have the impression ( did i read it somewhere?) that Githongo had his own surreptitious recorder? Am I right?
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Post by kamalet on Sept 26, 2006 8:35:54 GMT 3
Kamale Your arguments defy logic. Its painful to read a piece like this purportedly written by a thoughtful person. It borders on the absurd, if not outright stupid ( I hate using this word esp with reference to you as I believe you are a honorable man, but I cant find a substitute). Still why should the ODMers stand aside? What have they done? Who has proved it? Has Karua determined that they are guilty of something? or has KACC done? And if we extend your argument shouldnt the sloth and his henchmen stand aside too? Pmaniac, The ODM-ers have done nothing eh? Let us look at two instances and perhaps it might just make sense: Sunkuli was minister when the Forensic Labs deal was done by his PS Bw. ZK Cheruiyot. Sunkuli did not sign the deal as his PS did so. Do you think we should hold Sunkuli responsible for the deal in as much as we are holding his PS? Awori was minister when the Passports deal was signed by his PS. Awori did not sign the deal but was minister responsible at that time. Do you think we should hold Awori responsible for the deal as much as we are holding his PS? As you can see, there two sides to this argument which I am sure with a little effort you can keep civil without degenerating to being derogatory! Ideally when should a person step aside? Is it when guilt has been confirmed or is it when fingers have been pointed? Should we wait until a case is framed against a person so that we can demand his or her resgination? On one standard, you could claim that there is the bit about responsibility that the crime was committed under one's watch whilst on another you could claim not everything done in a ministry is know by the minister, so it might not be right to demand responsibility of the minister. What we all fail to realise is that whilst Kenyans go out to vote for their leaders, they perhaps never bother to look at the quality of leaders they elect. With a poor law where it is these same useless fellows a president has to select ministers from, one should not really be surprised at the extent of corruption undertaken by professional civil servants. That is why I would not imagine criminal or even political responsibility lying with Njenga Karume for any dodgy deals at the Department of Defence!!!! Back to the debate. ODM leaders demanded the resignation of Awori and Nyachae after they were named by Karua. They were named alongside some ODM leading lights who apart from showing leadership can only see politics as the agenda from Karua. YES it is politics, but that still does not take away the fact they are as responsible as their counterparts in NARC-K! Finally, no one is talking about your folks being prosecuted or even assigning guilt to them......they are only being asked to take responsibility for the deals consumated under their watch! Is that too much to ask?
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Post by bkichwa on Sept 26, 2006 12:15:07 GMT 3
Adongo,
There are a lot of "ifs" in relation to the mention of ODM in your above post. You seem to put a lot of hopeful premium on a political grouping that you are perhaps not subconsciously confident about(?)...pls correct me if I may be wrong in this thought.
I think that we set ourselves up for a huge disappointment by imagining that erstwhile politicians who knew nothing else but corruption, can be the saviours in our country, of the same.
That said, I would concur with your assertion, Adongo, about the masses being the catalysts for continous positive transformation in the country - this through a constant politically unapathetic stance. I however see such a transformation as slow and piecemeal over several years, because I just don't see how folks who have never known what it is to govern under the rule of law (read, potential govt-in-waiting aka ODM-K), can all of sudden begin to do so with flying colors.
Interesting discussions all around. Have a good day.
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Post by adongo12345 on Sept 26, 2006 20:33:05 GMT 3
B Kichwa
You raise some important question about the ability or lack thereof for the ODM Kenya to run a corruption free government. I was telling a fellow compatriot the other day that Raila is probably the luckiest politician around. I was of the view that had Raila found himself in the same position as Kibaki, say by way of being an Executive PM, he would be just as entangled in corruption as Kibaki is. My point is that the current generation of political elites do not know any other way to run a government except by cutting deals and surrounding themselves with money baggers.
The good fortune is that Raila and his ODM crew has now seen a government fall to pieces in just three or so years, because one, corruption can no longer be hidden from the public (sharp media and whistle blowers galore) and second the public is alert and unforgiving until they put you on the sidelines (ala Murungaru, Murungi, Mwiraria). The worst damage you can do to a politician is put them on the sidelines, locking them up is a bonus. Most of the guys we are tossing off haven't even got that much cash, except may be for Murungaru whom I think got something to chew on. The other guys are biting the bullet for protecting these scammers.
What I am trying to say is that nobody coming into government is going to enjoy any impunity from public scrutiny. Infact the intensity of that scrutiny is going to go higher with each incoming regime. In the case of ODM we should remember they have a lot of enemies in the media. Kibaki was the darling of the media coming in until the arrogance of Murungi and Murungaru and a few morons around him turned everybody off. Mainstream media loath someone like Raila. Almost every columnist in mainstream media has made a career warning Kenyans about Raila, "the violent revolutionary", "the party breaker", "the power maniac" yada yada. They are going to be going through his trash bins and washroom toiletries to catch him. That is good for the country because Raila and his team are coming with all guns pointed their direction.
I have read a lot about accusations that the ODM has no ideology, that all they want is power etc. Good for them. Get the d*amn power and do something with it for the Kenyan people. Those who want a party with ideology, whatever ideology they want should go ahead and form their party and hopefully also compete for power.
I have very limited expectation for the ODM. I think they have a simple and straightforward mission. That mission is captured in their very name. The ODM will usher in the new constitution Kenyans have fought and died for for more than two decades. Once they accomplish that mission anything else they achieve for the country will be a bonus.
The new constitution we are headed for, which I suspect will be closer to Bomas Draft than to the Wako Mongrel will change the country forever and will take a generation to fully implement.
The idea that ODM will eliminate poverty yada yada is a stretch. That is another battle for which new movements and political groupings will emerge with time. There will be a time for Kenya to have their Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales. I am sure many Kenyans are working on that project as we speak. The beauty of revolutionary politics, is that everything we do is always part of the big picture. The constitution we are fighting for today will help us with the battles against poverty, exploitation and marginalization of communities and the great peoples of our land.
Aluta continua
Adongo.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 26, 2006 21:30:29 GMT 3
AO Your retort above is eloquence at its simplest. I dont know why some good meaning Kenyans simply dont get it. If you ask any Kenyan now "do you want EVERYONE to prosper, have food on the table, money for school fees and bills etc, do you want a responsive executive that listens and governs from the front, a resposible legislature, and a honest judiciary?" 99.9% will say yes. A few sadists will say NO, only our tribesmen should enjoy these benefits after all sisi ndiyo tulipigania Uhuru! So why is there such a divide politically if most of us want the same thing? We differ in the mode of getting to our nirvana thats what. While some see the current constitution and the office holders as the way forward, MOST of the people want them out! And the reason(s) are simple. 1.) Non delivery of the bedrock of governance the constitution,esp devolution of power and the institution of checks and balances between the arms of the 3 structures of GOVT. 2) Non delivery in the fight against draft, a top most issue in OUR collective minds as this wasted monies could be used for various projects etc.
As you wrote above, point No. 1, overhaul of the constitution is the KEY! I think ODM will lead from the front in this issue as they know, fully well, that what WE want.
@kamale Yes its politics, but the GOVT has all the tools in its disposal as far as the fight against graft is concerned. Why is it rehashing nonsense instead of going ahead and charging these fellows? They should start with their own wakina Awori etc, and at the same time throw the book at ODM luminaries. What happened to Ruto's case? where did it end? Will it end like Saitoti's? Bieng exonorated because he was not "responsible" yet GB happened under his watch? So who is culpable? Koinange? Who? Moi? You are engaged in a game of smoke and mirrors Kamale. The BUCK STOPS WITH YOUR PRESIDENT (not mine)! Kama hawezi kazi si ajiuzulu?.!
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Post by bkichwa on Sept 26, 2006 22:39:20 GMT 3
I hear ya Adongo. Evolution into a transformed Kenya is the more likely hopeful scenario, in turn considering that majority political players and leaders across the board seem not genuinely up to playing the big game that Kenyans so desire.
Pmaniac - I concur with you that even though the common wananchi are on different sides of the political divide, they inherently desire a similar common good. The negative tribal inclinations in our society I think unfortunately blind us from the latter.
I wanted to share this quote (posted at the end) that I came across last year - I found it simple, yet profound. Are many of us a victim of this? Perhaps the way out is to be that alternative, and genuine leadership, rather than continously bicker, yearn and pray for it. Thoughts, comments?
Here goes:
''Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber."
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Post by aeichener on Sept 27, 2006 1:08:00 GMT 3
ODM ? Piffle ! Kenyans and their usual messianism... Gado is more astute and more accurate here:
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Post by adongo12345 on Sept 27, 2006 18:24:40 GMT 3
aeichenerGado forgot two things. The man in the middle is even more corrupt working hard to protect the monster to his right hand who feeds him. How about corruption in the Judiciary (that is supposed to fight both corruptions?) But I always love Gado. He is brilliant. The other thing the cartoon doesn't tell you is that we elected the present government precisely because we were fed up with corruption in the previous government and they convinced us they will eliminate corruption. We did not elect Kibaki and his team to compete on who is more corrupt between them and the previous government. But of course the genius of cartoons is in their simplicity. Adongo.
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Post by aeichener on Sept 27, 2006 23:39:09 GMT 3
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 28, 2006 3:19:43 GMT 3
I wanted to share this quote (posted at the end) that I came across last year - I found it simple, yet profound. Are many of us a victim of this? Perhaps the way out is to be that alternative, and genuine leadership, rather than continously bicker, yearn and pray for it. Thoughts, comments? Here goes: ''Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber." I love this quote, thanks! YOUR president is a smart man I think. He is just disinterested in politics and governance. He is just a plain lazy slob, full stop. His aim was to just to enter the record books as a President. He never has or didnt have a true calling for service. What a pathetic sorry fellow he is, and what a waste of an opportunity! The quote is more applicable to GWB of the US. Apparently its not only me who thinks so. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15034597/
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Post by denno on Sept 28, 2006 17:26:30 GMT 3
@ Adongo
Adongo you write very eloquently and having read some of your peices I would assume that ODM k would be the party of your choice. I also would like to see ODM triumph over Kibaki's corrupt regime, however my heart is heavy. When I look at the composition of the ODM leaders I feel like I'm looking at the mirror image of Kibaki's govt.
Politics is all about attaining and keeping power. My question is what should be done to address the ODM leaders who were involved in corrupt activities in previous govt? Once they get in power won't they also fight to ensure that their past misdeeds stay under the rug?
You keep writing that Kenyans will not be fooled again. Sir, I beg to differ Kenyans will be fooled again and again untill they raise up and make their wishes known in strong terms. Replacing a devil with a former devil or an aspiring devil is certainly not the answer.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 28, 2006 18:38:03 GMT 3
@ Kamale
As far as the Sunkuli and Awori assertations you made, I believe that the MINISTERS should be held accountable. Awori DID sign and approve the documents AFTER the PS went through and recommended that he does so! Those mega contracts cannot be signed at PS level and the deal consumated.
The same thing happened to that dwarf midget mwiraria! He said he signed documents prepared by HIS octogenenerian PS!
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Post by mossad on Sept 28, 2006 21:56:20 GMT 3
Denno
I've been mourning about the same issue of corruption involving the ODMers who are now preaching to us on how Kibaki has messed up. I am actually worried that we wont go far as far as we keep replacing devils with each others each and everytime. I for once, i've given up on kenyans to ever make a right decision and get their acts together. At the same time, there was a lot of hope after Kibaki was elected as a new president and many of us expected a lot of positive changes. Today, we have a shell of a president who seem to be soo empty to even focus on the same important issues affecting the society. Iam not sure what a President Raila, Musyoka or Mudavadi will do that Kibaki has not done already including playing a fool.
Mossad.
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