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Post by job on Jun 9, 2011 21:32:24 GMT 3
Folks,From Abdikadir's explanation (video clip above), he insinuates that the committee (CIOC) can only make one collective YES or NO recommendation for all three names {Mutunga, Baraza, Tobiko} tied together...in other words, no consideration of the individual nominees seperately. Yet a vote was conducted on each nominee with Mutunga getting 21 for, 2 against; Baraza all 23 for; Tobiko 11 for, 11 against.I'm not an expert on Parliamentary standing orders and committee proceedures, but surely could one of us research and establish the veracity of that statement. Secondly, is it possible for the Speaker to interprete and make a ruling on whether a committee vote tie (11 for, 11 against, 1 abstention) can muster the threshold to qualify as endorsement?How could this committee consider a tie vote on Tobiko as an approval? I think an MP should bring up this question seeking the Speaker's intervention as soon as this matter comes to the House floor.Thirdly, it would be beneficial if Abdikadir (in the spirit of openness and transparency) issues a breakdown of the vote - how each member of the 23 present voted: PNU :
Abdikadir Mohammed - Chairman Beth Mugo Chirau Ali Mwakwere Kilemi Mwiria Cecily Mbarire Wavinya Ndeti Phillip Kaloki Amina Abdullah Martha Karua Ekwe Ethuro Charles Kilonzo David Ngugi and Wilfred Ombui.
ODM:
Budalangi MP Ababu Namwamba Assistant Ministers Alfred Khangati Mohamed Maalim Elizabeth Ongoro Joseph Nkaiserry Joyce Laboso Danson Mwazo Benedict Gunda Charles Onyancha Julius Murgor John Mbadi Millie Odhiambo Rachael Shebesh and Lucas Chepkitony Who was the absention? That is in itself suspicious - maybe a sign of a struggle between conscience vs induced reward. Which 11 members voted for, and which 11 voted against? Fourth, in view of the fact that Kibaki (via the Atwoli-led panel he remote-controlled) made the Tobiko nomination having the ICC calendar in mind {- on his admissibility challenge (currently in appeal), the government (Kibaki) promised the ICC Judges that Kenya would have a CJ, DCJ, and DPP by the end of June}, does the possible rejection of Tobiko's appointment in Parliament further jeopardize Kibaki's grand strategy to save the Ocampo suspects at the ICC? Like we have observed earlier, I think this Tobiko appointment by Kibaki is the staging of a Trojan horse for many lingering issues ranging from the PEV cases, grand corruption cases, drug-dealing cases, land grabbing cases, etc. Having read Kibaki strategists minds' during their submission to ICC Judges at the admissibility challenge, it is obvious Kibaki was planning a mock-investigation of PEV ( though he lied that they already started). This was to be coordinated by the DPP - should the (in)admissibility challenge succeed. In the unlikely event that occurs, Tobiko could be used to basically coordinate a political witch-hunt fiasco targeting Kibaki's rivals, while exonerrating allies. Whenever you see someone like Kibaki who's normally inclined to pick his tribesmates for such crucial position like the DPP, going instead for a minority tribe (like Tobiko's Maasai), then don't rule out possibility of a sinister plot to later use him (Tobiko) to light some big fires upon rivals. The Waki Commission report listed many PEV suspects ( a lot in the Rift Valley including Franklin Bett, Elizabeth Ongoro, Sally Kosgei, et al.), some who were even sitting in that CIOC that grilled Tobiko. It is possible some CIOC members voted for Tobiko as advance inducement of sympathy while others doing the exact opposite; voting against him in fear of future prosecution & witch hunt directed to political rivals. Whichever way you look at it; considering the sensitive and imminently potential cases (PEV, land, corruption, drugs), Keriako Tobiko is not the right person for the job. He is completely pliable and subservient to the government of the day, he is arguably corrupt, spineless, and deeply entrenched in the old rot. This position needs someone of Mutunga and Baraza's calibre - incorruptible, apolitical (publicly), independent-minded, unable to be used as a robot (for witch hunt), credible and filled with integrity. Otherwise we shall be walking into a minefield. Crime, corruption, land grabbing, will continue unabated because Tobiko will send no single case to Mutunga and Baraza. If at all he does, it would be via witch hunt or because a suspect refused to pay up bribes (as in PS Kirui's case). We shall be stuck in status quo. This Tobiko appointment needs to be stopped on its tracks - its not late! Lets get to work.
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Post by kamalet on Jun 9, 2011 21:52:09 GMT 3
...why is it that we can only conclude that 'money was poured' for anyone to vote in favour of Tobiko?
Abdelkadir people did not vote along party lines which means that there are those in the ODM group who actually voted for Tobiko as there were those in the 'PNU' group that voted against him.
For instance, General Nkaissery would have definitely voted for Tobiko (one of ours) whilst it is possible that Cecily Mbarire or Martha Karua voted against him being on the PNU side.
End of day, all three have a one more hurdle before parliament to get clearance and I would not even be surprised that in its madness, parliament can reject the CJ and DCJ and approve the DPP and frankly there is nothing we can do about it. The law would have been followed to the letter and poor Kibaki would have to go back to the drawing board!
We opted for bad institutions guys!!!
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Post by escale on Jun 9, 2011 22:31:00 GMT 3
How about using this samne argument with regard to Mutunga. We allege he is gay...he denies We allege he has no family morals....he denies He worked with Kibaki in NAK and only declined to chair NAK...was he a a hireling for Kibaki? We provide zero proof...but still made the allegations! Is this enough to condemn Mutunga? I do not think so!!! So why a different standard for Tobiko?? We elected to have a bad recruitment system....so let us suck it up and move on! I think this is dishonest. The best they had against Mutunga are as you say 'allegations' which even IF true do not cast doubt on his ability to perform his job. What we have heard about Bw. Keriako is a different matter: Is he independent or would he make a compromised DPP? Has he taken bribes before? Why has he never successfully prosecuted any person worth mentioning out of the numerous well known scandals/corrupt deals minted in Kenya almost daily during his lacklustre stint in a role no different from the one he is now angling for? Dragging Mutunga's name in a defence against Tobiko is to me a red herring and an attempt at obfuscating the grave issues raised about Tobiko's suitability for the DPP role. It is not a different standard that is being applied to Tobiko but being able to realise which allegations should be taken seriously and which ones treated with contempt. Nor does it help to condemn the system wholesale. Pray, how would you have had us identify the most suitable persons for these offices? But I am not holding my breath for an answer ...
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Post by b6k on Jun 9, 2011 22:32:45 GMT 3
Kamale how can you blame the institutions that haven't been overhauled yet. It's the players, from all sides, who are rotten to the core.
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Post by kamalet on Jun 9, 2011 22:42:14 GMT 3
Kamale how can you blame the institutions that haven't been overhauled yet. It's the players, from all sides, who are rotten to the core. I would rather not be as selective as you are! If say the committee had rejected Tobiko, all I would be hearing here is the power of the new constitution! A sword cuts both ways. We shall have what some think is good whilst others will be aghast and blame the system! So if we have a system that allows what you do not like or believe is wrong, then that system cannot be deemed good in your eyes....can it?
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Post by kamalet on Jun 9, 2011 22:45:24 GMT 3
I think this is dishonest. The best they had against Mutunga are as you say 'allegations' which even IF true do not cast doubt on his ability to perform his job. What we have heard about Bw. Keriako is a different matter: Is he independent or would he make a compromised DPP? Has he taken bribes before? Why has he never successfully prosecuted any person worth mentioning out of the numerous well known scandals/corrupt deals minted in Kenya almost daily during his lacklustre stint in a role no different from the one he is now angling for? Dragging Mutunga's name in a defence against Tobiko is to me a red herring and an attempt at obfuscating the grave issues raised about Tobiko's suitability for the DPP role. It is not a different standard that is being applied to Tobiko but being able to realise which allegations should be taken seriously and which ones treated with contempt. Nor does it help to condemn the system wholesale. Pray, how would you have had us identify the most suitable persons for these offices? But I am not holding my breath for an answer ... What do you mean dishonest....? What are the facts that were presented against Tobiko apart from allegations?
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Post by shifta on Jun 9, 2011 22:55:12 GMT 3
Kamalet, at times you are so predictable it is pathetic. Aren't you the same kamalet who started the "odjinga" thread castigating the PM for relenting to Tobiko? Or do you have an alter ego with the same "name"? Can you first settle the argument between yourself, and I assume voices in your head. Which side are you on? Tobiko's or not?
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Post by einstein on Jun 9, 2011 22:56:35 GMT 3
Just trying to catch up with the news.
My immediate reaction is that I have not lost hope yet in parliament to do the right thing when the matter is brought before the whole house.
As for Tobiko, even if he gets the nod from parliament, he now knows that it will not be business as usual with him as the DPP. He is already under a microscope being observed by the whole nation. He is a watched man. I wouldn't envy his position.
I think Kenyans still have a chance to challenge his integrity for the position in a court of law. I do not buy the reasoning that those allegations levelled against him were just mere allegations. If they were, then the people behind them played a very high risk game e.g. libel suits by those offended. Alfred Gitonga already threatened to sue Kirui (if the hearings were not accorded parliamentary privileges).
Just my hasty immediate thoughts.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jun 9, 2011 23:21:17 GMT 3
First, Adongo you are right, a vetting committeee is not a court that requires proof beyond resonable doubt. I am not sure why mwalimumkuu keeps bringing that up and totally disregards among othet factors Tobiko's pathetic record. No one can objectively look at his record and point at accomplishments - where is his list of prosecutions and conviction record... zero, hakuna. ----------- How about using this samne argument with regard to Mutunga. We allege he is gay...he denies We allege he has no family morals....he denies He worked with Kibaki in NAK and only declined to chair NAK...was he a a hireling for Kibaki? We provide zero proof...but still made the allegations! Is this enough to condemn Mutunga? I do not think so!!! So why a different standard for Tobiko?? We elected to have a bad recruitment system....so let us suck it up and move on! Folks, First of all let me respond to Kamale's ridiculous moral equivalency compass. Mutunga was alleged to be gay and he said he is not. Has it ever occured to people like Kamale that being gay is not a criminal offense in Kenya. One has to be operating in a completely convoluted mind space to equate accusation of abuse of office and corruption with direct impact on the work of the DPP with the nonsense of a person's sexuality. And then we have the idiotic "no family morals" issue. What the heck is that? Who defines family morals? Is it the same church leaders whose priests rape boys and destroys their lives and get scott free? Are those the people who will define family morals? What has family morals defined in these offensive terms have to do with the CJ's work. Zero. For goodness sakes, let's not come up with absurd excuses to defend Tobiko. But I think einstein got it right. Under the new constitution, any Kenyan or group of Kenyans have a right to go to court and challenge the appointment of Tobiko on the grounds that he has zero integrity for the job. Then the court will listen to all the evidence challenging his integrity and make a ruling. This Tobiko man is headed for a lot trouble. I will check with the crew to see what is cooking. Remember all this started when the civil society folks decided they will take the fight to Tobiko and it soon became an avallanche. Na bado. Our work never ends.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jun 10, 2011 2:40:45 GMT 3
Interesting stuff. The Standard report has broken down a few things. First of all now we know the two M.Ps who disappeared and did not show up for the most important day of the CIOC vetting process. Sadly they were both ODM M.Ps. The other two ODM M.Ps abroad are serving their country in official duties I suppose, so that is not an issue. But for CIOC members in Nairobi to disappear and never show up for a crucial meeting to vote for key judicial nominees is a national scandal scandal, particularly where one vote would have made the difference one way or the other. This is a big blow to the credibility of the CIOC in any capacity in the constitutional implementation process. If any of us never shows up at work and never calls to say where they are, they will be fired unless they were comatose in a hospital. You cannot abanodn your duties in a job and still keep your job. CIOC members have a duty to make decisons by voting and there are three options. Vote Yes. Vote NO. Abstain. Disappearence is NOT one of the options. These two "disappeared" members of the CIOC owe the CIOC members and the country an explanation or they should quit the CIOC which already is in a lot of trouble with the Kenyan public all across the country. They should look at the comments Kenyans are making about their goof with Tobiko in every news outlet. The CIOC is pissing in the face of Kenyans who watched the vetting live on TV and think Tobiko should look for another job instead of the one he has messed up in the last five years. I am not sure if that is a good move by the CIOC. We will see. Patience is the catch word here. It looks pretty obvious that the impunity forces seeing Tobiko drowning in his own filth decided it was time to go to work. They combed the list of members of the CIOC and identified the vulnerable ones. Chances are many others were called. Once the two williing members were identified they were given the usual treatment. Make them disappear the way the witnesses against Ruto in the land theft case disappeared. To do that you lock them in a hotel room, take all their cell phones and tell them the money will be paid after the vote is done (Tobiko did this himself during CKRC days). It is incredible that members would melt into nowhere in the most important day of their work at the CIOC, without as much as an explanation. If this is the way the CIOC is going to do its work then they are headed the Legal Affairs Committee route. They will lose the confidence of Kenyans and that will terribly undermine their work. Remember that the real job of the CIOC is to oversee the constitutional implementation in which they have done absolutely nothing. This was not supposed to be their work. It fell on their lap because the Legal Affairs Committee had become a national disgrace. For the most part the CIOC did a good job, then they blew it up by telling Kenyans, OK we have a stinking mess called Keriako Tobiko as your DPP but we are going to give him to you anyway because we have to obey our political masters. The CIOC is digging their own grave if they start to work in these dubious ways. They are going to hear from Kenyans in the next couple of days. It will be a vote of no confidence which will put them very much at par with the disgraced Legal Affairs Committee. They have chosen their bed and they will have to snore in it. That is their problem. Here is what I am talking about. www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000036880&cid=4&ttl=DPP:%20Why%20team%20wants%20Tobiko%20probed%20further
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Post by job on Jun 10, 2011 7:36:09 GMT 3
ODM has 14 MPs in the committee while PNU, to which the chairman belongs, has 13. Two MPs, Charles Onyancha (Bonchari, ODM) and Joseph Nkaissery (Kajiado Central, ODM) did not vote because they abroad. Julius Murgor (Kapenguria, ODM) and Benedict Gunda Fondo (Bahari, ODM) did not show up. 1) There were more PNU MPs who opposed Tobiko than ODM MPs.
2) ODM MPs were therefore the weakest link that let Tobiko IN.
3) ODM must cast more light into Julius Murgor (Kapenguria) and Benedict Gunda Fondo (Bahari) - they were around but didn't show up for the vote.
ODM MPs in this CIOC committee, not PNU MPs, are therefore to blame squarely for not blocking Tobiko....end of story!!!!!!!!!!!!![/color]
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emali
Full Member
Posts: 219
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Post by emali on Jun 10, 2011 9:03:22 GMT 3
A great step for Kenya this vetting process was...Tobiko looks like he will get in through the back door but I think it was inevitable,we cannot perfect the system on our first go around.The reality is that if every public senior official went through this process maybe less than 5% would come out unscathed,I mean look at PLO giving his reservations about Tobiko when our very own Odongo here who knows him personally has raised questions about his past not to mention his inept record at KACC....we have to be patient it will take time...
We can only hope that the Tobikos of this world have a POSITIVE 'Wako trait'...in the sense that just like Chameleons they would change to suit their enviroment...its not exactly an easy thing to defy the Kenyattas/Mois of this world or even the first term oblivious Kibaki...It takes more than just looking the other way for a guy like Wako to survive for over 20 years...its obvious he doesnt lack intelligence nor qualifications and MIGHT have actually been a competent AG given an independent functional system and a President with limited powers...ahem!...
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Post by kamalet on Jun 10, 2011 9:25:41 GMT 3
Kamalet, at times you are so predictable it is pathetic. Aren't you the same kamalet who started the "odjinga" thread castigating the PM for relenting to Tobiko? Or do you have an alter ego with the same "name"? Can you first settle the argument between yourself, and I assume voices in your head. Which side are you on? Tobiko's or not? I am not even sure you know what you are talking about!!! This debate is not a referendum on Tobiko so asking me what side I am on is foolish. We are debating a process.....the individuals went past us a long time ago!
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Post by commes on Jun 10, 2011 9:33:53 GMT 3
But I think einstein got it right. Under the new constitution, any Kenyan or group of Kenyans have a right to go to court and challenge the appointment of Tobiko on the grounds that he has zero integrity for the job. Then the court will listen to all the evidence challenging his integrity and make a ruling.
This Tobiko man is headed for a lot trouble. I will check with the crew to see what is cooking. Remember all this started when the civil society folks decided they will take the fight to Tobiko and it soon became an avallanche. Na bado. Our work never ends. “Our work never ends”. Powerful statement indeed. It still baffles how a deadlocked committee 11:11 that failed to reach a decisive outcome passes a YES vote. Is it that the Chair has some special veto powers? It is also misleading for the chair to state that all the nominees have to be approved as a lumpsum. “Why did they vote then, someone asked here?” Very disappointing indeed! This goes to demonstrate a governments lack of sensitivity Those who believe in keeping the dream for a new dawn alive must not resign to this fate nor give up. The work never ends…. Should Parliament fail the Courts are another option to catch this bad apple
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Post by kamalet on Jun 10, 2011 9:37:24 GMT 3
How about using this samne argument with regard to Mutunga. We allege he is gay...he denies We allege he has no family morals....he denies He worked with Kibaki in NAK and only declined to chair NAK...was he a a hireling for Kibaki? We provide zero proof...but still made the allegations! Is this enough to condemn Mutunga? I do not think so!!! So why a different standard for Tobiko?? We elected to have a bad recruitment system....so let us suck it up and move on! Folks, First of all let me respond to Kamale's ridiculous moral equivalency compass. Mutunga was alleged to be gay and he said he is not. Has it ever occured to people like Kamale that being gay is not a criminal offense in Kenya. One has to be operating in a completely convoluted mind space to equate accusation of abuse of office and corruption with direct impact on the work of the DPP with the nonsense of a person's sexuality. And then we have the idiotic "no family morals" issue. What the heck is that? Who defines family morals? Is it the same church leaders whose priests rape boys and destroys their lives and get scott free? Are those the people who will define family morals? What has family morals defined in these offensive terms have to do with the CJ's work. Zero. For goodness sakes, let's not come up with absurd excuses to defend Tobiko. But I think einstein got it right. Under the new constitution, any Kenyan or group of Kenyans have a right to go to court and challenge the appointment of Tobiko on the grounds that he has zero integrity for the job. Then the court will listen to all the evidence challenging his integrity and make a ruling. This Tobiko man is headed for a lot trouble. I will check with the crew to see what is cooking. Remember all this started when the civil society folks decided they will take the fight to Tobiko and it soon became an avallanche. Na bado. Our work never ends. Adongo, There is nothing you are responding to me on...I did not accuse Mutunga of anything!!! I said he had been accused and had denied all the charges against him. I said no proof had been presented to back up the allegations. I said that on that basis alone it was not enough to condemn Mutunga! So what moral equivalence are you talking about?? My point is very simple. Allegations of corruption, incompetence etc were laid against Tobiko all of which he DENIED and in no instance was any evidence laid before the CIOC. I then asked....what is the difference between his situation and that of Mutunga? Both were victims of perceptions, all denied and no proof provided! As for the interpretation of the constitution that because Tobiko has no integrity in the eyes of civil society, they can go to court and contest his appointment! This argument cannot even stand seriously. When the shortlist was done, this was made public and the Atwoli committee invited public views. As someone says, the Atwoli committee went further and gave the principals the option to chose from a shortlist of three. CIOC recommends to the house to approve the nominations.....none of this process was illegal. The public presentations at the CIOC did not convince the committee and the name is before parliament! I said before, all three have to cross this last hurdle...after that it will be impossible to undo anything for the Catholics as well as the civil society!
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Post by mzee on Jun 10, 2011 10:03:22 GMT 3
Jukwaa I’m afraid that this is the end of the story as far as Tobikos nomination is concerned. Let the man go to work and do nothing for the next 8 years. Our MPs have never been upto any good in matters of principle save for the house speaker Marende. I don’t expect them to reject his nomination. Besides the issue will take ethnic lines and the story will end there.
Already some have started jumping on the table “supporting our pastoral community brother”. This is the kind of politics Kenyans MPs are best known for. Unless we find a way of removing the new DPP after the parliament has approved him we are stuck.
That Kenyans will rise up against Tobiko is a wishful thinking. That they will scrutinize him more than they have done is the past is out. For Tobiko business will be as usual. If the parliament approves him in spite of his short comings, then I don’t think he will see the reason why he has to change. It’s a shame but it’s also a reality which we have to accept. The Kenyan parliament is still too immature for this kind of vetting.
Blaming ODM as a party for not doing the right thing is wrong. For even if the two ODM MPs who disappeared were present, there is nothing to say that they would have voted against Tobiko. I mostly likely believe they would have voted for him. I don’t know if they were paid to do the disappearing act, if so shame. Lets close our eyes and hope for the best but I will not hold my breath.
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Post by tnk on Jun 10, 2011 10:26:49 GMT 3
the reality here is that we are charting new waters so to speak
in the past there was no opportunity to either question or vet public appointments
in the new dispensation there are processes to assist in public appointments
the job of these committees is not necessarily to vet, but conduct background investigations etc and then make recommendations to parliament and it is parliament to vet the nominees
the CIOC has done their part and hopefully made their honest and fair recommendations.
its now upto parliament to approve or reject the nominees
there would have been as much disappointment or heat if the CIOC decided to filter the selections, i believe their task was to conduct background checks and make recommendations to parliament. am not even sure that they needed to vote/endorse the nominees
let parliament i.e 220 MPs or thereabouts discuss the recommendations and then select or vote the nominees.
if in the process, parliament as representative of the public make wrong decisions, then we would need to either re-evaluate the process of selection or else we re-evaluate our choices of representatives (MPs) or both.
we should not expect to get it right the first (few) time(s)
what we need to do is plan for the future e.g a poor selection of DPP and/or future processes, ways to ensure super qualified rogues do not get a shot at these public posts.
e.g considering the "astute business acumen" of pattni (literally creating money out of thin air) it may very well be that he posses the relevant skills to be CEO of a strategic corporation, how would we ensure that he does not make the shortlist without infringing on his rights.
that is what we have to grapple with.
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Post by commes on Jun 10, 2011 10:45:46 GMT 3
tnk/mzee
I share your views. What is evident however under these developments is that the political will to end this vicious circle of impunity does not exist. Yes we may have a “credible” nominee for CJ and Deputy CJ.
However a crucial piece in the puzzle is this doubtful DPP and most probably the next nominee for AG may be lame duck too.
One of the major shortcomings witnessed in the vetting process and by extension the fight against impunity is the challenge to obtain sufficient evidence for alleged citations of corruption and integrity issues.
My concern is that in the next few weeks the process of identifying a nominee for the AG position will kick off. Repressions of allegations of corruption and intergrity will most likely dominate the next process as a means to perpetuating the past ills, power and to defeat justice.
The question is, for how much longer?
Are they delaying the AG process so as to rush it through? The current AG should be out by August which is only one month away!
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Post by mzee on Jun 10, 2011 12:15:32 GMT 3
Tnk, I think that the process used has been tested world over and approved as the best. If we in Kenya cannot apply it then God save us for I don’t know what process we will use. Perhaps we should just cast a die.
All in all we as Kenyan voters ought to blame ourselves for we deserve the leaders we elected. We have some MPs e.g. Benedict Gunda Fonda who is yet to make a maiden speech in parliament but who has perfected the art of disappearing into thin air. Then we have the likes of Sonko and Kuttuny who don’t understand why they are in parliament. My point is that as long as we have these dunderheads nothing of substance will come out of the legico.
I have never pinned my hope our 222 MPs save for the speaker. Majority of these amigos vote with their pockets. Sadly only 10000 shillings is enough to buy an MP. But give them ridiculous laws such as those of forbidding vernacular language in work place and rush to pass it. Vernacular is not the problem, the problem is tribalism. Eg having 90% in a given workplace from a particular ethnic group. Thats what should be forbidden.
We might just need a process and methodology from heaven for our corrupt brothers to vet their corrupt counterparts.
Commes You have your fingers on the right button. Yes, we might have a credible CJ and his deputy but with a rotten AG and DPP the whole equation of fighting impunity cancels itself out. Besides we have the police who are now being vetted in camera (I don’t know why). A long as we have the Iteere like characters, please forget about the fight against impunity for it will not happen.
As you also mentioned, the committee in its hurry did not pursue the matter to its logical conclusion. It would not have hurt to wait for a couple of more days or even weeks to further investigate the allegations against Tobiko. We cannot expect the parliament to do this. We must, perhaps, define the process of vetting better.
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Post by mzalendo on Jun 10, 2011 12:16:47 GMT 3
Karieko Tobiko has been cleared. This is no news to me when i said here sometime back that we slept on our job to let the atwoli group do things the old style, i knew then that neither CIOC nor the parliament and even the two principles would be counted apon to change that anomality. I took a back seat and time has come to prove that, so my good friend Adongo et al. this case is as well closed, if you remember vividly in our engagements how you showed alot of confidence and i even told u how i admire your optimism, i made that comment on the premise of knowing and experiencing first hand how kenya's political dynamics work. Infact i highly doubt if even this decision by the CIOC is challenged at the courts will bear any fruits.It is still rotten until the fresh blood is injected. The only good thing about this exercise is the pressure it has put on the Tobiko fellow to live up to kenyans expectation and like i said before and i repeat now.
ONE GUY WILL NOT HOLD KENYA HOSTAGE
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Post by abdulmote on Jun 10, 2011 12:21:20 GMT 3
Interesting debate folks and here is my take.
First off: On Abdikadir’s announcement; I understood him to state that the Committee had ‘DECIDED TO’ recommend all the three names...” and NOT that the Committee ‘HAD TO’ do the same. Note the You Tube clip from 0.52 “the first recommendation of the Committee is that all names be approved for appointment.”[/b] In other words, it was the Committee’s final decision to ‘recommend’ all the three, without leaving Tobiko out. It certainly could not have made sense to stop recommending the other two if one of the three was not to be forwarded (recommended to Parliament).
Secondly, in my opinion the Chairman laid sufficient emphasis on Tobiko’s controversial ‘recommendation’: Abdikadir stated from 1.50: “we will include in our report, very extensively as you shall see, on all of the key issues...and especially on the DPP...” in order to assist the Parliament to deliberate further on the three from an informed position.
As to the Committee’s controversial decision to forward Tobiko’s name despite the fifty-fifty outcome, I can comfortably assume that the Committee had no other better choice but to do the same; Tobiko had not been sufficiently rejected so as not to be recommended further for Pariament’s scrutiny. On balance and due to the voting outcome, it would only have been fair for the applicant, despite how we may feel about it and in particular those who are against Tobiko, to give the same the critical benefit of doubt and simply pass the final decision to be determined by the Parliament, which is to be arrived at after inclusively and extensivlely considering the Committee’s findings as stated plus any other issues that may latter arise.
I have no problem with that. Let us all wait and see but I am inclined to think Tobiko won’t pass!
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Post by mangai on Jun 10, 2011 12:53:30 GMT 3
ODM has 14 MPs in the committee while PNU, to which the chairman belongs, has 13. Two MPs, Charles Onyancha (Bonchari, ODM) and Joseph Nkaissery (Kajiado Central, ODM) did not vote because they abroad. Julius Murgor (Kapenguria, ODM) and Benedict Gunda Fondo (Bahari, ODM) did not show up. 1) There were more PNU MPs who opposed Tobiko than ODM MPs.
2) ODM MPs were therefore the weakest link that let Tobiko IN.
3) ODM must cast more light into Julius Murgor (Kapenguria) and Benedict Gunda Fondo (Bahari) - they were around but didn't show up for the vote.
ODM MPs in this CIOC committee, not PNU MPs, are therefore to blame squarely for not blocking Tobiko....end of story!!!!!!!!!!!!![/color] [/quote] Why is it that ODM supported Tobiko? My hypothesis, political considerations might have out weighed meritocracy. ODM might have been keen to support one of 'their own'. The Maasai, from where Tobiko ails have been stead fast in ODM when their Kalenjin counterparts were drifting away. Appearing to oppose their kinsman would have portrayed ODM in bad light amongst the Maasai. Who knows, the ODM guys might have also reasoned that Tobiko could easily be manipulated to toe Govt line in the event that ODM took over next year! There is also talk that PNU was having change of mind about Tobiko. Could this have pushed ODM to adopt an opposing view? Is the tone in this discussion likely to change now that it is the ODM that proved to be the weakest link? Again, what options did Kibaki and Raila have? We were told amongst the nominees presented to the two principals, Tobiko was ranked first, then a Mrs Oduor and Patrick Kiage in that order. I doubt whether the latter two inspire any confidence either.
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Post by mzalendo on Jun 10, 2011 13:59:50 GMT 3
Mangai i dont agree with that line of thought could be ODM has more rebel Mps than they think. but realistically if we are going to let political considerations take center stage in determining matters important to the nation, then that is indeed a very sorry state of affairs More so with such flimsy excuses as the masaai vote if that could have been the scenario.
The masaai votes can not be more important to the ODM than the kalenjin votes presumed to be for Ruto for the take. so ODM playing politics with this because of Tobiko according to me is far fetched. The likely commonsensical scenario could be that there are still elements within ODM just like in PNU who are either watermelons or are corruptible.
It is worth noting that the CIOC went along with this thing in an open manner until the voting stage.What was so embarrassing about open voting. What did they want to hide from the public.This are fundemental questions which we should not let escape our curiosity. kenyans need ladies and gentlemen who are firm in belief of what they are expected of.
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Post by mzee on Jun 10, 2011 16:03:47 GMT 3
Abdulmote, You are right that we should now leave the issue to the parliament. That’s ok with me after all we do not have any other choice. The only issue I have is that parliament is the wrong place for one to expect any objective outcome. There are MPs who will just want to oppose or support because so and so is opposing or supporting Tobiko. In other words, Tobiko is in a very good place at the moment. If I were him I would start celebrating because the job is mine for the taking.
There is something the MPs call “horse trading” (let my guy through and I do the same with yours) or better still “facilitation” (taking bribes in the lavatories) that will take the center stage. I believe that we have to learn to live with Tobiko in spite of what we might think about him. It’s a really bad start for our new constitution, but here we are, we have no choice. It’s what democracy is all about.
What we should hope for is a strong and credible AG. This is the only way we can neutralize our own home grown crook Tobiko and his backers.
Otherwise, as I said before we must, in future, clearly define the vetting process and not just leave it to the whims of the chairman of the vetting committee.
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Post by b6k on Jun 10, 2011 17:17:37 GMT 3
Mzee, to trust that the den of thieves that refers to itself as the august house will do the right thing is to expect too much. This was probably the purpose of having an 11-11 tie so that it could be brought before the house & all the MP's would get a piece of the action at the trough. Tobiko being the president's man will have his lobbyists dishing out money to the honourable crooks. I wouldn't put it past the church leaders to pour whatever little is left of those funds that poured into their coffers to support the No vote during the constitutional referendum to oppose Mutunga & Baraza. In short, the MPigs will be liquid for a short time whilst the rest of us will be stuck with Tobiko until 2019.
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