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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2007 22:35:16 GMT 3
DEAR ANGUS and NGURU ,
Greetings babe and howz you?
Well there was a leaders meeting last saturday for ishtar and kavi which is usually done monthly to be updated with the vaccine.
Apparently the watchman colluded with MUNGIKI of kangemi and they were locked from out side while the meeting was going on.Mungiki men were armed with stick and stones ready to ambush this guys.
it was only deo who was hurt in this commotion and investigation are being carried pliz get in touch with pits and deo they are so traumatised and Katrina was again in the midist.
Got an email from prof and she says that meeting have been schedule pliz be involved in this process am ready to fly to kenya is the situation will not improved.
hope to hear from you soonest and nguru pliz call me i sent you my numbers.
Am disturbed ,
Auntie ivy.
Dear Kamau and others,
very sorry but not surprised to learn of this attack.
Interestingly enough shortly after the WSF in Kenya ended, a member of the LGBTI community in Kenya, and I had an informal discussion with Onyango Oloo at his residence in Nairobi. For those who don't know, Onyango Oloo was the coordinator of the Kenya Social Forum that organised the last World Social Forum meeting. We engaged in a discussion on how things were unfolding in Nairobi given the prominence of the LGBTI presence at the forum and the fall out and backlash from organised religion beginning with the Kenya Catholic Church. Oloo cautioned us that all sorts of backlash would emerge but that backlash in the form of violence would most likely come from Mungiki. It was Mungiki that he cautioned that folks from the LGBTI community should be most careful about. Sadly, his words have come to pass.
in solidarity
Kathure Kebaara
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Post by aeichener on Apr 18, 2007 0:30:53 GMT 3
Mungiki are being blown up to a larger-than-life scarecrow by many interested parties. But your sad report shows that they are indeed being scary.
Alexander
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Post by adongo12345 on Apr 18, 2007 3:15:01 GMT 3
Alex, I think the Mungiki criminal activities are more than just a scarecrow. Mungiki started as a social movement, albeit with some dangerous criminal (sexist, misogynistic, chauvinistic and homophobic) undercurrents. Today, it would appear, at least to me, that those criminal undercurrents have taken over the character and operations of Mungiki. My guess is that even some of the chauvanist politicians who have been funding them are getting nervous and even scared. Good for them. It looks to me, the Mungiki outfits we know of publicly, are just robbers using different methods to get cash, same as their political counterparts in parliament and elsewhere. From Mt. Elgon to Tharaka to Kiambu, not to forget Mazingira House, we, Kenyans are living in a world of "kill and live". Scary? www.nationmedia.com/dailynation/nmgcontententry.asp?category_id=1&newsid=96121www.nationmedia.com/dailynation/nmgcontententry.asp?category_id=1&newsid=96186At any rate I think what is at stake on this thread is the attack on the LGBTI communities in Kenya by Mungiki. The lesson for us is that groups like Mungiki and many others, including religious organizations, often think they can attack Kenyan Gays and Lesbians with impunity because these are supposed to be "disposable" persons and communities. Our job is to tell them No, these people are very much part of the Kenyan social fabric. They are our sisters, our brothers, our cousins and ourselves. They are us. Their rights to organize as groups, to carry out their activities and simply to live and lead in Kenya is as important as the rights of every Kenyan. That is my take on this. An injury to one is an injury to all. Yes. Adongo
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Post by roughrider on Apr 19, 2007 18:31:02 GMT 3
In some ways there is no difference between this LGwhatever and Mungiki. They are both illegal groups that represent social aberration. Mungiki is a notorious criminal gang that the government is soft-peddling on because of its roots in insidious Kikuyu culture and due to political considerations. The Mungiki would like society to accept them as the way to run our social and economic affairs.
The LGwhatever group is a small cluster of sexual weirdoes who want society to change the rules and accept their practices as normal. It appears this is an organisation where 'anything goes'. They have no moral right to resist Mungiki thugs when they thrive on the same precepts– turning the moral fabric of society on its head.
They are both abhorrent and intolerable. But this is no excuse for being violent or denying them their basic rights; when they engage in such covert violence, the government must intervene to protect lives.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Apr 19, 2007 20:08:44 GMT 3
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Post by adongo12345 on Apr 20, 2007 3:15:00 GMT 3
In some ways there is no difference between this LGwhatever and Mungiki. They are both illegal groups that represent social aberration. Mungiki is a notorious criminal gang that the government is soft-peddling on because of its roots in insidious Kikuyu culture and due to political considerations. The Mungiki would like society to accept them as the way to run our social and economic affairs. The LGwhatever group is a small cluster of sexual weirdoes who want society to change the rules and accept their practices as normal. It appears this is an organisation where 'anything goes'. They have no moral right to resist Mungiki thugs when they thrive on the same precepts– turning the moral fabric of society on its head. They are both abhorrent and intolerable. But this is no excuse for being violent or denying them their basic rights; when they engage in such covert violence, the government must intervene to protect lives. This is the most hateful piece I have come across from your otherwise very timely interventions and pieces. First of all it is not "LGwhatever" it is " LGBTI" which is a Kenyan organization of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgendered communities in Kenya. These are Kenyans who face incredible hostility from the general society and are just beginning to be able to organize publicly in Kenya, their country, to fight for their rights as human beings. What is wrong with that? I find it odd that people who are fighting for human rights and good governance in Kenya are vandalizing the rights of the LGBTI communities to live and prosper in Kenya. Discrimination against our compatriots and fellow Kenyans on the basis of their sexual orientation is wrong and should be denounced by anybody who wants to speak for human rights. I think Sadik's reference speaks volumes about the frightening levels of homophobia in some of the most dominant institutions in our continent. I refuse to be part of it and so should you, actually all of us. But we welcome the debate once again. I refuse the argument that we have more important things like poverty, land etc to talk about and that talking about LGBT communities and the supression of their rights is a waste of time. If we cannot defend the rights of the most marginalized sectors of our communities, we have no business talking about human rights at all. An Injury to one is an injury to all.Adongo The morality police mentality is dangerous. |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 20, 2007 10:44:29 GMT 3
In some ways there is no difference between this LGwhatever and Mungiki. They are both illegal groups that represent social aberration. Mungiki is a notorious criminal gang that the government is soft-peddling on because of its roots in insidious Kikuyu culture and due to political considerations. The Mungiki would like society to accept them as the way to run our social and economic affairs.
The LGwhatever group is a small cluster of sexual weirdoes who want society to change the rules and accept their practices as normal. It appears this is an organisation where 'anything goes'. They have no moral right to resist Mungiki thugs when they thrive on the same precepts– turning the moral fabric of society on its head.
They are both abhorrent and intolerable. But this is no excuse for being violent or denying them their basic rights; when they engage in such covert violence, the government must intervene to protect lives. Roughrider: I make reference to your posting above. It is a homophobic rant. Please note that JUKWAA has a zero tolerance policy on issues like homophobia, racism, sexism and the like. Consider this a PUBLIC WARNING. Recurrence of the same/similar diatribes may result in the termination of your account. Sincerely, Onyango Oloo JUKWAA Administrator |
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Post by miguna on Apr 20, 2007 17:23:23 GMT 3
[ Roughrider: I make reference to your posting above. It is a homophobic rant. Please note that JUKWAA has a zero tolerance policy on issues like homophobia, racism, sexism and the like. Consider this a PUBLIC WARNING. Recurrence of the same/similar diatribes may result in the termination of your account. Sincerely, Onyango Oloo JUKWAA Administrator Oloo, Mine is not to offer any kind of support to RR on the statement you have quoted for he doesn't deserve any on that statement, however, I wish to underline your copious SILENCE when KENYANS were publicly called N**ers here. To appear to be acting fairly and with integrity, you must perform your adminidstrative functions without DISCRIMINATION. In fact, calling us N**ers is HATE PROPAGANDA, which is both a criminal offence and a human rights violation! Be consistent. [unedited] MM ============================================== |
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Post by job on Apr 20, 2007 22:13:20 GMT 3
RR,
This is shocking.
Quoting you - "In some ways there is no difference between this LGwhatever and Mungiki".....
Well, also
In some ways there is no difference between you and Mungiki.
I honestly see that with regard to intolerance towards people of different sexual orientation, there's NO DIFFERENCE between MUNGIKI's ideology and your beliefs. Your choice of words exposes feelings of total intolerance towards people whose sexual orientation is not necessarily similar to yours.
Quoting you again-
"The LGwhatever group is a small cluster of sexual weirdoes who want society to change the rules and accept their practices as normal...they are both abhorrent and intolerable" -
1) NO, you are the one attempting to change society rules. Man, you are harbouring some very scary views indeed. I honestly think you are taking this thing (hate) to another level.
Diversity comes in multiple dimensions and everyone doesn't have to be like you to EXIST around you. It is only civil and right for society to accept diversity in it's multi-dimentional morphologies, at least to the level of acknowledging the right of existence of different peoples
So don't try to change the society rules of acceptance of diversity and tolerance towards people who may be different. Are you rallying society to cheer Mungiki on hatred towards the LGBTI?
It's also disingenuous to equate Mungiki to LGBTI citing SOCIAL ABERRATION grounds. Even in social spheres, the two organizations are distinctly as different as night and day. How can you equate an aggressive and violent terrorist group responsible for the violent deaths of hundreds of Kenyan children, women and men- MUNGIKI, to a peaceful rights lobby -LGBTI?
2) You are also DIVERTING ATTENTION from the all-important subject of Mungiki's current wave of violence on innocent citizens in an election year,........ in particular this very incident against the LGBTI. We are now instead debating a different topic. Let's talk about the sad state of criminal impunity being exhibited by Mungiki (at least in this thread).
By the way,.....Why didn't you DEFEND Mungiki when they committed other cases of violence towards the rest of their social targets : uncircumcised women, women wearing trousers, poor and vulnerable slum dwellers, matatu owners, drivers and touts etc.
We must refuse to be part of this mob-lynching and intolerance towards people who are "different". Whether different in skin color, ethnicity or sexual orientation.
Job
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Post by kamalet on Apr 21, 2007 12:13:06 GMT 3
[ Roughrider: I make reference to your posting above. It is a homophobic rant. Please note that JUKWAA has a zero tolerance policy on issues like homophobia, racism, sexism and the like. Consider this a PUBLIC WARNING. Recurrence of the same/similar diatribes may result in the termination of your account. Sincerely, Onyango Oloo JUKWAA Administrator Oloo, Mine is not to offer any kind of support to RR on the statement you have quoted for he doesn't deserve any on that statement, however, I wish to underline your copious SILENCE when KENYANS were publicly called N**ers here. To appear to be acting fairly and with integrity, you must perform your adminidstrative functions without DISCRIMINATION. In fact, calling us N**ers is HATE PROPAGANDA, which is both a criminal offence and a human rights violation! Be consistent. [unedited] MM ============================================== Either Miguna does not know how to read or cannot understand what is written. Alex fully justified the use of the N word with respect to the references made of 'dorobos' etc. His use of the N word is not any different to your constant reference to certain people in this forum as 'Attack Dogs' - I am still not sure you can understand this! |
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Post by roughrider on Apr 21, 2007 13:49:27 GMT 3
RR, This is shocking. Quoting you - "In some ways there is no difference between this LGwhatever and Mungiki"..... Well, also In some ways there is no difference between you and Mungiki. I honestly see that with regard to intolerance towards people of different sexual orientation, there's NO DIFFERENCE between MUNGIKI's ideology and your beliefs. Your choice of words exposes feelings of total intolerance towards people whose sexual orientation is not necessarily similar to yours. Quoting you again- "The LGwhatever group is a small cluster of sexual weirdoes who want society to change the rules and accept their practices as normal...they are both abhorrent and intolerable" - 1) NO, you are the one attempting to change society rules. Man, you are harbouring some very scary views indeed. I honestly think you are taking this thing (hate) to another level. Diversity comes in multiple dimensions and everyone doesn't have to be like you to EXIST around you. It is only civil and right for society to accept diversity in it's multi-dimentional morphologies, at least to the level of acknowledging the right of existence of different peoples So don't try to change the society rules of acceptance of diversity and tolerance towards people who may be different. Are you rallying society to cheer Mungiki on hatred towards the LGBTI? It's also disingenuous to equate Mungiki to LGBTI citing SOCIAL ABERRATION grounds. Even in social spheres, the two organizations are distinctly as different as night and day. How can you equate an aggressive and violent terrorist group responsible for the violent deaths of hundreds of Kenyan children, women and men- MUNGIKI, to a peaceful rights lobby -LGBTI? 2) You are also DIVERTING ATTENTION from the all-important subject of Mungiki's current wave of violence on innocent citizens in an election year,........ in particular this very incident against the LGBTI. We are now instead debating a different topic. Let's talk about the sad state of criminal impunity being exhibited by Mungiki (at least in this thread). By the way,.....Why didn't you DEFEND Mungiki when they committed other cases of violence towards the rest of their social targets : uncircumcised women, women wearing trousers, poor and vulnerable slum dwellers, matatu owners, drivers and touts etc. We must refuse to be part of this mob-lynching and intolerance towards people who are "different". Whether different in skin color, ethnicity or sexual orientation. Job Job, I have not and will not defend Mungiki. There is no such thing as diverting debate in this case because implied in the post and in subsequent responses is the assumption that while Mungiki is unacceptable; the LGBTI is acceptable. Methinks not and I reserve the right to question this assumption. I do not recall the point in time when Kenyans in general accepted this. I find that it is mostly Kenyans who have had lengthy stints abroad who find our inability to come to terms with gay culture 'scary'. I have yet to be part of this 'brave new world' where 'anything goes'. If you question my methodology; i.e. drawing parallels between Mungiki and LGBTI as groups that engender social transformation then it is up to you, as an intellectual, to grapple with. Is there a level of similarity (this is contrary to sameness)? |
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Post by roughrider on Apr 21, 2007 13:58:22 GMT 3
I would like to quickly address myself to two or three things:
I do not believe Jukwaa is a forum for mass condemnation, mass hysteria, sycophancy or political correctness. Here we must ruthlessly interrogate positions and assumptions. Here we must not come with preconceived notions and here we must give the devil his due.
Every Tom, Dick and Harry knows that it is NOT a settled issue or fact that lesbianism, gay, transsexuals, the whole kit and caboodle, are acceptable forms of sexual behavior in Africa or in Kenya today. They remain vexed problems of society today and the debate on them is ongoing at different levels; moral, social, philosophical and legal.
To come to Jukwaa and make ex cathedra declarations under the guise of ‘moderating’ is supposed to make us think that the ‘moderator has monopoly of knowledge. To come to Jukwaa and demand that everybody conforms to one’s beliefs is utter, utter nonsense. To come to Jukwaa and apportion meaningless tags such as ‘homophobia’ is even worse. For even the very concept of ‘homophobia’ is debatable. Indeed we can and will continue to challenge it. It is kosher to probe and question these things that some people call rights.
I am well aware of the lessons of history from the Christian inquisition to McCarthyism in America; clampdown on dialogue and debate has been a key ingredient of the breakdown in organized society. It is dictatorial intolerance to suppress opinions that are contrary to what we believe. This purported ‘public warning to ROUGHRIDER’ smacks of gross inflexibility, hypocrisy and intolerance. I will resist the urge to make refrences to 'diatribes' against 'organised religion'; the 'Catholic church' and their 'rightwing sponsors' among other essays that are on this very board.
We, who are conscientious objectors, do not express our disapproval of homosexuality out of rabid fear or hate. We do so out of a genuine belief that it hurts African sensibilities, ethics, culture and in most cases, law. This is why I was gracious enough to say that as much as we think that these habits are bad, we cannot begrudge them of basic rights – to things as security of life.
I may not be right but sure as hell I have a right to express myself.
And it is false argument to say that rational opposition to behavior that we consider immoral is ‘not in keeping with the fight for good governance’ or that it is ‘hateful’. For democratic governance, by its very essence, pre-supposes that we can accept the right to hold opinions, however unpopular. I suppose the Adongos and Oloos of this world, just like its Roughriders, must keep rising to a higher level of democratic consciousness.
Finally, I find the reference to the article in the Economist sad. Journalists embedded in Africa who report back to their mother countries describing Africa in such condescending tones – much like we were some strange species or biological specimen that intrigues them. The article is racist.
Although we have been independent for 50 years, the same practices; of a curious explorer reporting to King Leopold on the native wealth and barbarism of the Congo still continues unabated, albeit with greater sophistication. What is disappointing is that supposedly knowledgeable Africans cannot see through these things for what they are.
Jukwaa is a smorgasbord. Some of us who debate here have hardly spent a week abroad to appreciate positive delights of this exotic culture. We need to be argued with and convinced. Not threatened, vilified and condemned.
I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions. Lillian Hellman.
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Post by aeichener on Apr 21, 2007 14:30:19 GMT 3
the assumption that while Mungiki is unacceptable; the LGBTI is acceptable. This assumption is indeed correct for this forum and within its frame, as OO has pointed out. Insofar, this forum should be considered safe space. I have no doubt that outside this forum, you'll be able without too much difficulty to find right-wing loonies, haters, religious extremists and so on, who will feel that being LGBTI is inacceptable, intolerable, and ground for attack and discrimination. You are of course free to seek out such venues, and to foster your prejudices there. But not here. Alexander |
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Post by miguna on Apr 21, 2007 18:05:46 GMT 3
[ Either Miguna does not know how to read or cannot understand what is written. Alex fully justified the use of the N word with respect to the references made of 'dorobos' etc. His use of the N word is not any different to your constant reference to certain people in this forum as 'Attack Dogs' - I am still not sure you can understand this! Kamau, The one you call Alex is a RACIST. Oh, yes, I OVERSTAND that very well. I am an expert on racists.His attempt at a J USTIFICATION does not bother me. The fact that you or Oloo do not care about his OPEN RACISM, which is displayed on almost each and every stupid quip, does not bother me. I am displeased by the hypocrisy, particularly of Job and Oloo. Adongo stands out as the only one who openly challenged this vile racist to his twisted ways. You, Kamau, showed your ENDORESEMENT of racism, by your silence on this forum. All I am calling for is CONSISTENCY, FAIRNESS AND NON-DISCIMINATION.Your sidekick is not an expert of RACISM; HE IS A RACIST. And please do not even begin to compare our "outing" of the JUKWAA RACIST to the fiendish manners of the Government of President Kibaki! Don't worry about the other sideshows; they lead you nowhere. [unedited] MM ====================================== |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 22, 2007 21:15:58 GMT 3
This is another message to Roughrider. It may apply to others as well.
JUKWAA is a forum with rules. It declares what is and is not acceptable up front.
Anyone joining JUKWAA is conscious and aware of this.
If you persist in flouting these rules- which have helped make JUKWAA the serious, respected and vibrant forum that it is, then you will only have yourself to blame.
Those who hold that Oloo is a "hypocrite" who effectively condones racists- despite copious evidence to the contrary- are entitled to their views. I do not see any need to prove otherwise.
Public warnings will be followed by very concrete actions.
Those who think that this is a bluff should watch this space.
Onyango Oloo
JUKWAA Administrator
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Post by job on Apr 23, 2007 0:50:47 GMT 3
Miguna,
To quote you,.........
"I am displeased by the hypocrisy, particularly of Job and Oloo. Adongo stands out as the only one who openly challenged this vile racist to his twisted ways. You, Kamau, showed your ENDORESEMENT of racism, by your silence on this forum.".......end of quote
Let me clarify with all due respect that I don't have any contractual duties or obligations at Jukwaa.
I think it's been quite some years now since I last engaged Alex in debate. The fact that I do not read or respond to anything he writes does not mean I concurr or disagree with his postings. That was just a conscious choice I made a long time back. I never even read or noticed that "N!gger" posting in the first place.
Unlike the Administrator, I am not obliged to scoure through all postings for acceptable or unacceptable rules and standards and as such it's possible (as indeed was the case) that I'll fail to even notice a racist statement by one Alex. So I fail to see just where I am being hypocritical because I can't respond to what I didn't even see in the first place (by choice).
On the contrary I will tell you that I rarely miss reading any postings by RR, yourself, Sadik, Adongo, & several others (many of which are objective, stimulative and creative). That's just another choice I made. I don't think RR himself took offense at my challenge with a different point of view. In any case he still argues his point, which I still consistently differ with.
The onus remains solely with the Administrator to maintain consistency, fairness and non-discrimination at Jukwaa.
Job.
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Post by roughrider on Apr 23, 2007 8:18:00 GMT 3
the assumption that while Mungiki is unacceptable; the LGBTI is acceptable. This assumption is indeed correct for this forum and within its frame, as OO has pointed out. Insofar, this forum should be considered safe space. I have no doubt that outside this forum, you'll be able without too much difficulty to find right-wing loonies, haters, religious extremists and so on, who will feel that being LGBTI is inacceptable, intolerable, and ground for attack and discrimination. You are of course free to seek out such venues, and to foster your prejudices there. But not here. Alexander And I suppose your racist attitudes are acceptable and can be fostered without much trouble here, huh? Unlike you, I have utmost confidence that over 95% of Kenyans share in my 'prejudices' and they are certainly niot to be found lurking in the internet, they are mostly walking the streets. Do you really think your liberal use of the 'N' word amuses anyone? |
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Post by roughrider on Apr 23, 2007 8:31:12 GMT 3
A final response to Oloo.
I rest my case right here - and it was not a case against homosexuality as such, but a case for allowing discussion on any topic, however emotive it is to us - and will not make any further responses on this matter. But perhaps as 'administrator' you need to be reminded of one or two things as well.
Jukwaa rules are your rules (for Jukwaa is your personal fiefdom, isin't it?) but they do not include a demand for anyone to change their opinions - for it is in diversity of opinion that debate flourishes.
I have no intention of changing my views, unless convinced by reasoned arguments. I repeat - ex cathedra declarations and threats will not do.
You can rest assured that as long as Roughrider is still registered here he will continue to express himself freely, without any inhibitions whatsoever and insofar as those expressions are logical and add value to debate and dialogue.
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Post by aeichener on Apr 23, 2007 8:47:42 GMT 3
RR: there are certainly Kenyans who share your hateful ideas. That is one of the reasons why a board like Jukwaa is a necessity, and why it should remain a safe space. Being a safe space can entail
- that racist language (like that one used by a certain journalist) gets the fitting heavy smack over the head é.g. by me - to pathos mathei, right?!,
- and that homophobe language (like that one used by you) gets the fitting heavy kick in the ass, e.g. by the administrator.
There are mungiki of the panga, and we dislike them in the real world. And there are mungiki of the pen (or keyboard), and we dislike them in cyberspace. The hatespeech of the latter is what fosters the former. Your attack on gay, lesbian, bi, transsexual, intersexed people, is illicit and will not be tolerated, just like the mungiki attack which Kathure had reported.
And be not so ridiculously pompous, please; you are not running for a parliament seat, are you?
Alexander
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Post by kamalet on Apr 23, 2007 8:52:03 GMT 3
[ Kamau, The one you call Alex is a RACIST. Oh, yes, I OVERSTAND that very well. I am an expert on racists.His attempt at a J USTIFICATION does not bother me. The fact that you or Oloo do not care about his OPEN RACISM, which is displayed on almost each and every stupid quip, does not bother me. I am displeased by the hypocrisy, particularly of Job and Oloo. Adongo stands out as the only one who openly challenged this vile racist to his twisted ways. You, Kamau, showed your ENDORESEMENT of racism, by your silence on this forum. All I am calling for is CONSISTENCY, FAIRNESS AND NON-DISCIMINATION.Your sidekick is not an expert of RACISM; HE IS A RACIST. And please do not even begin to compare our "outing" of the JUKWAA RACIST to the fiendish manners of the Government of President Kibaki! Don't worry about the other sideshows; they lead you nowhere. [unedited] MM ====================================== Miguna, You may not be bothered about "Justification", that is your right as it your right to bury your head in the sand. The simple point is that if you had read the "justification" it would have helped you understand that the N word is not always racist depending on the context you want to take it. After all, some of today's rappers seem to use the N word rather liberally and only react when the word is used by a white man. That to me is the hypocrisy you wish to bring to Jukwaa. You did not see the problem of one Kenyan referring to a section of Kenyans as 'dorobos', but you have a problem with another Kenyan referring to this person labeling Kenyans as 'dorobos' as fitting the N word. By the way how is it possible for a black kenyan to be racist against another black Kenyan? Why did I think race issues were colour coded? Miguna, I appreciate I am creating rather high expectations that you will understand what I just said. |
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Post by fanyamambo on Apr 23, 2007 11:05:39 GMT 3
Is Alexander a black Kenyan? I find it extremely difficult to find any justification for the use of the word black person. But that's just me.
Anyway pity things have gone the way they have on this thread. I do think there may be double standards on the part of all of us (I stress this) concerning hate speech and what one can or cannot say here.
I do like this forum and although I don't post much I read it it quite religiously. There is a fair amount of personal attack and name calling that quite frankly takes much needed attention away from the issuesat hand. This is followed by a lot of posturing etc. that I'm sure we can all do without. Perhaps this will eventually be overcome.
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Post by aeichener on Apr 23, 2007 13:11:28 GMT 3
I find it extremely difficult to find any justification for the use of the word black person. But that's just me. It's just Fanyamambo. A recently published good article in KenyaImagine on the US quibbles about the sexist and racist remarks of a certain radio talk show host (Don Imus) can help her to tackle these difficulties. I can assert that it is a good article because I wrote it ;D. Apart from the article itself, the insightful comments of Nekessa are worth a special look: www.kenyaimagine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=458&Itemid=32Alexander |
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Post by fanyamambo on Apr 23, 2007 13:59:33 GMT 3
I wondered why it said black person, yet I wrote the n word! Of course the censoring does not allow the n word. But this raises an even more serious issue. Does the n word now mean black person?? Am I missing something? Goodness gracious.
Alexander, I will read the artice when I have a minute.
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Post by adongo12345 on Apr 23, 2007 14:21:35 GMT 3
Obviously we have serious problems with homophobia and racism in Jukwaa. What else is new?
We have people who think Kenyan gays and lesbians should be skinned alive and then we have resident racists. May be that is why we need to talk and dialogue.
Adongo
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Apr 23, 2007 16:34:40 GMT 3
It is not good enough to use the n-word because some ignorant rappers did. The truth of the matter is that the n-word never had anything but a negative connotation. That it’s one of the tools white supremacists use to exert control over black people. Language is power. In the dark days when the n-word had currency, the highest placed black person in business, government, or education can be taken down in the eyes of others with just one label, the n-word. It follows that the n–word, born from hate and ignorance must be taken and put in a archives with other relics as a historical testament. I believe one can write about it, talk about it, learn about it, but not use it. Indeed, not at each other, not for each other, not in camaraderie or in anger. That is if one really understands history and can intelligible relate to it.
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