|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 26, 2012 14:40:08 GMT 3
|
|
|
|
Post by nalinali on Apr 26, 2012 14:52:38 GMT 3
True but the way you frame it makes you a spoilsport. The numeric reference to [ "one" killer is down] has a trigonometric function of curving to another point(angle) other than Taylor's. I wonder why you should do this? This is how hate speech begins, unless you intend to acquaint us with the requirements of a deliberate surreptitious vexation targeting a farmiliar cast! I wonder what would have happened if charges brought against him had included his atrocities in Liberia itself right from the days of master sergeant Samuel Doe, his mentor? |
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 26, 2012 15:03:27 GMT 3
True but the way you frame it makes you a spoilsport. The numerical reference of "one" killer is down has a trigonometric function of curving to another point(angle) other than Taylor's. I wonder why you should do this? This is how hate speech begins! Hate speech? What is the paranoia about? Africa is loaded with murderers and killers in high offices. Look at Sudan and Bashir. This international fugitive is bombing people as we speak. Why should we be afraid of these people. There is no need to bembereza killers for fear of making them mad. Let them get mad and madder even the ones in Kenya. The people they killed never had even a chance to get mad. They were dead in a second. The killers instead have their whole lives ahead of them. In jail. What is wrong with that? If calling a thief by their name and aquired title of thief is hate speech then we need to abandon the English language and all languages so we can try mimicking. |
|
|
|
Post by nalinali on Apr 26, 2012 15:10:34 GMT 3
True but the way you frame it makes you a spoilsport. The numerical reference of "one" killer is down has a trigonometric function of curving to another point(angle) other than Taylor's. I wonder why you should do this? This is how hate speech begins! Hate speech? What is the paranoia about? Africa is loaded with murderers and killers in high offices. Look at Sudan and Bashir. This international fugitive is bombing people as we speak. Why should we be afraid of these people. There is no need to bembereza killers for fear of making them mad. Let them get mad and madder. The people they killed never had even a chance to get mad. They were dead in a second. The killers instead have their whole lives ahead of them. In jail. What is wrong with that? Adongo I have since modified my post to anticipate your rejoinder. But here is the deal. Kenya as a geo-polity is devoid of such monsters as Taylor and we are at the point of realizing maximum level of cohesion and unity. Against this backdrop, references to Taylor as a killer are bound to re-ignite the fissures we have long buried away as we embrace and sing "Kumbaya". Surely you must be seeing this. |
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 26, 2012 15:18:01 GMT 3
Hate speech? What is the paranoia about? Africa is loaded with murderers and killers in high offices. Look at Sudan and Bashir. This international fugitive is bombing people as we speak. Why should we be afraid of these people. There is no need to bembereza killers for fear of making them mad. Let them get mad and madder. The people they killed never had even a chance to get mad. They were dead in a second. The killers instead have their whole lives ahead of them. In jail. What is wrong with that? Adongo I have since modified my post to anticipate your rejoinder. But here is the deal. Kenya as a geo-polity is devoid of such monsters as Taylor and we are at the point of realizing maximum level of cohesion and unity. Against this backdrop, references to Taylor as a killer are bound to re-ignite the fissures we have long buried away as we embrace and sing "Kumbaya". Surely you must be seeing this. Are you suggesting that to realize this "maximum level of cohesion and unity" we should lie to ourselves that we do not have terrible killers in our midst? I would suggest the opposite is the case. Living in denial is the worst crime we can commit if we really want to build a nation at peace with itself. I don't think we need to live in mortal fear of annoying the bad guys and thinking if we make them happy everything will be OK. People have to be held accouantable for what they do here on earth. That is all there is to it. I am not sure if we have killers of Taylor's calibre in Kenya, but the ones we have are just as nasty. You cannot measure the degree of death. Once you are dead you are dead. |
|
|
|
Post by nalinali on Apr 26, 2012 15:26:51 GMT 3
Adongo I have since modified my post to anticipate your rejoinder. But here is the deal. Kenya as a geo-polity is devoid of such monsters as Taylor and we are at the point of realizing maximum level of cohesion and unity. Against this backdrop, references to Taylor as a killer are bound to re-ignite the fissures we have long buried away as we embrace and sing "Kumbaya". Surely you must be seeing this. Are you suggesting that to realize this "maximum level of cohesion and unity" we should lie to ourselves that we do not have terrible killers in our midst? I would suggest the opposite is the case. Living in denial is the worst crime we can commit if we really want to build a nation at peace with itself. I don't think we need to live in mortal fear of annoying the bad guys and thinking if we make them happy everything will be OK. People have to be held accouantable for what they do here on earth. That is all there is to it. I am not sure if we have killers of Taylor's calibre in Kenya, but the ones we have are just as nasty. You cannot measure the degree of death. Once you are dead you are dead. How on earth can Adongo claim with a straight face that we have nasty killers in Kenya? This is an outrage. History confirms that Nairobi would have gone up in flames like Alexander's Moscow, had it not been for the Leonidas-like stand of some brave Kenyan, who drew the line on the sand near Longonot during the 07/08 PEV. And is it not true that without the call for protest by some (un)nationalist Kenyans, all that would have been unnecessary. By the way Adongo. I thought that repartee (or attempts at it) was part of discourse? It would be nice to stop now and look at the implications of the details of Taylor's verdict. |
|
|
|
Post by destiny on Apr 26, 2012 16:25:53 GMT 3
|
|
|
|
Post by destiny on Apr 26, 2012 16:29:51 GMT 3
UNFIT FOR PURPOSE!... ROT IN JAIL SON!  |
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 26, 2012 16:46:02 GMT 3
Folks,
The one thing I find interesting in this verdict is that the court ruled that "the prosecution had failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Taylor was part of a joint criminal enterprise" and yet still found him guilty of aiding and abetting the killings. That right there has a lot of significance with the Kenyan cases even though Taylor was tried the Special Court for Sierra Leone and not the ICC proper. The statutes have a lot of similarity, all crafted by the UN to deal with the same type of crimes.
I will wait and see the full verdict but I am sure the lawyers for the indicted Kenyans are combing this verdict with a lot of trepidation. It is not good news for them at all.
|
|
|
|
Post by mongobeti on Apr 26, 2012 16:54:40 GMT 3
This is a chilling message to the merchants of death. The wheels of justice may be slow but they surely turn. Yes, Africa is better off with one more killer behind bars, and enjoying a life term "diet of beans''. There are still many out there -in Sudan, Zimbabwe, Kenya and elsewhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by OtishOtish on Apr 26, 2012 17:01:14 GMT 3
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 18:07:21 GMT 3
A Liberian told me that today is Taylor's birthday. Ah well, hope he is having a fabulous one!  |
|
|
|
Post by job on Apr 26, 2012 19:04:43 GMT 3
What these Judges tell us is that (like Taylor) one can actually be found NOT individually criminally responsible for the crimes (by not proving they exercised command and control over the actual killers) yet still end up in jail. Again like Taylor, one can even be found NOT responsible as a co-perpetrator to a common plan under a joint criminal enterprise but still end up in jail. You don't have to be the mastermind (perpetrator) or co-perpetrator to end up in jail. These judges nailed Taylor under the Responsibility under Article 6(1) for Aiding and Abetting the crimes. They found evidence beyond reasonable doubt that Taylor aided and abetted the planning of the crimes by providing practical assistance, encouragement, and moral support to the killers on the ground. You may have no direct control over the killers, but so long as you provide them practical things like cash, arms, transport, or even moral support, you are already aiding and abetting the commission of the crimes. This is what should worry Uhuru Kenyatta, Francis Muthaura, William Ruto and Joshua Sang; the Responsibility under Article 6(1) for aiding and abetting the crimes. Taylor was found to have given cash ($ 10,000 - $ 20,000) besides ‘safekeeping’ diamond gifts to known surrogates for commission of the crimes. Judges didn’t believe Taylor’s denial of not knowing those surrogates. On top, the Judges found that Taylor’s verbal encouragement and moral support to the killers (conveyed through surrogates) had a substantial effect on the commission of crimes in Sierra Leone. These are things to be noted by Kenya’s Ocampo-4. Taylor was found to have been involved in remote PLANNING of the violence from afar yet neither involved in ORDERING nor INSTIGATING the violence. Despite not being the actual mastermind, or a co-perpetrator, he is still in deep trouble for his peripheral role. Is this also Raila Odinga's and United Kingdom's engineering? Judges sorted out the charges and nailed Taylor only for aiding, abetting, and planning the commission of the crimes; but not for ordering, instigating, or directing the commission of the crimes. I’m sure like our Ocampo-4, he probably didn’t see it coming. Of note is also how the Prosecution argued the nexus between Taylor and the atrocious crimes. Judges had no problem ruling there was proof beyond reasonable doubt that serious crimes occurred. Their only difficult task was linking them to Taylor. The crucial clincher was hard evidence in the form of intercepted radio communications and satellite phone conversations. However, not Taylor’s voice was in any of them; but those of his Mungiki-like surrogates. Insider witnesses were key here - confessions of former surrogates and their allies. The Prosecution was able to successfully link Taylor to those surrogates. Taylor’s defense vigorously denied he even knew them. Judges agreed with Prosecution. These Judges creatively used a convoluted but logical process, unearthing the nexus between: Taylor’s interest in diamond mines in Sierra Leone; his offer of personnel, cash, and arms to Sierra Leone rebels; use of his subordinates to communicate with those rebels; intercepted radio communications and satellite phone conversations; evidence of supply of arms from Liberia to Sierra Leone etc. Another significant issue that should not escape our interrogation when discussing war, human rights violations and coups in Africa, is the role of the late Moummar Gadhaffi. In the 1980s, Gadhaffi brought in many African revolutionaries and trained them in Libya. East Africa’s most prominent warlord, Yoweri Museveni, was one of his graduates. In West Africa, he trained warlords like Liberia’s Charles Taylor, Sierra Leone’s Ali Kabbah and Foday Sankoh, Gambia’s Kukoi Samba Sanyang and others. It is instructive that all masterminds of the war crimes in this particular case (whether Liberian, Sierra Leonean, or Gambian) first met in Libya. While there, they must have learnt unconventional methods of: launching wars from neighbouring countries; setting up secret training camps; recruiting child soldiers; and other non-traditional war strategies. Are we ready to comprehensively evaluate the outcomes of those pilgrimages to Libya? In more cases, did they bring democracy or suffering to populations of hapless citizens? It is clear that graduates of these Libya trips each came back with different plans, skills and knowledge. Some probably used them well, others terribly. African scholars need to delve into researching the cost-benefit analysis of these revolutionary pilgrimages to Libya (that were sponsored by Gadhaffi).
|
|
|
|
Post by OtishOtish on Apr 26, 2012 19:49:29 GMT 3
Job, a clarification that may be useful for Jukwaa readers: The legal statute referred to is not the Rome Statute but the Statute of The Special Court for Sierra Leone. Neverthless, the Rome Statute has similarities, e.g. in Article 25:
In accordance with this Statute, a person shall be criminally responsible and liable for punishment for a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court if that person:
(a) Commits such a crime, whether as an individual, jointly with another or through another person, regardless of whether that other person is criminally responsible;
(b) Orders, solicits or induces the commission of such a crime which in fact occurs or is attempted;
(c) For the purpose of facilitating the commission of such a crime, aids, abets or otherwise assists in its commission or its attempted commission, including providing the means for its commission;
(d) In any other way contributes to the commission or attempted commission of such a crime by a group of persons acting with a common purpose. Such contribution shall be intentional and shall either:
(i) Be made with the aim of furthering the criminal activity or criminal purpose of the group, where such activity or purpose involves the commission of a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court; or
(ii) Be made in the knowledge of the intention of the group to commit the crime;
For "group" read "Mungiki" or the "warriors".
|
|
|
|
Post by mzee on Apr 26, 2012 19:59:41 GMT 3
killer down a few more to go The world is becoming a better place.
|
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 26, 2012 20:14:17 GMT 3
job and otishotish,You folks are right that the UN-SCSL and its statutes under which Taylor was tried are a mirror image of the ICC and the Rome statutes. The aiding and abetting thing is pretty loaded. In Uhuru's case for example even his own buddy Nguyai was singing in court how they were raising money in different venues eti to assist the displaced persons. When he was asked if he knew how the money was spent he admitted he didn't know. All he knew was that Uhuru and his friends were raising money and there were raging demands that money be provided for "revenge" operations. There is very little doubt that Uhuru and his buddies were aiding and abetting the Naivasha Nakuru operations. Their hope was that if they could jump the hoop that Uhuru was not part of the Mungiki entity (even that they couldn't pull off) then the whole case falls apart. That is the criminal enterprise argument. This ruling tells us things are way more complicated than that. Some people are shitting bricks out there as we speak. But here is another look at the implications of the Taylor historic ruling in dealing with international criminal prosecution and jurispudence. Here we go: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17854039
|
|
|
|
Post by mzee on Apr 26, 2012 20:39:55 GMT 3
adongo23456,
Uhuru and his buddies wanted to show that they were the good guys trying to stop the violence. Remember the car ride that they took with Nguyayi, talking to the youth about peace. You saw a video played in court about the same? Well this is what the judge said about Taylor
"the accused was publicly promoting peace, while privately providing arms to the RUF," adding that "There was a constant flow ... of diamonds from Sierra Leone to the accused, often in exchange for arms and ammunition."
In other words, the judges will see through the Uhuru tactics.
|
|
|
|
Post by justfacts on Apr 26, 2012 20:58:48 GMT 3
The pics by DESTINY are chilling.
Do the crime....do the time.
Its sad that African courts rarely see it that way with the elite....
|
|
|
|
Post by Titchaz on Apr 26, 2012 21:15:08 GMT 3
Liberia's former President Charles Taylor has been found guilty of aiding and abetting war crimes in Sierra Leone's civil war by a UN-backed court in The Hague. Taylor first came to prominence in 1989 when he started a rebellion against Liberia's then President Samuel Doe. Pictured is a rebel loyal to Taylor next to the skull of one of Mr Doe's soldiers. Liberia, Africa's oldest republic, was relatively calm until 1980 when William Tolbert was overthrown by Sergeant Doe after food price riots. President Tolbert and 13 of his aides were publicly executed. A People's Redemption Council headed by Doe (with walkie-talkie) suspended the constitution and assumed full powers. By the late 1980s, arbitrary rule and economic collapse culminated in civil war when Charles Taylor's National Patriotic Front of Liberia (NPFL) militia overran much of the countryside. Mr Taylor, pictured, continued his march on to the capital, Monrovia to oust President Doe. Despite the Economic Community of West African States (Ecowas) sending a peacekeeping force, Doe was publicly tortured and executed by a splinter group of the NPFL. Fighting intensified as the rebels fell out and battled each other, the Liberian army and the peacekeepers. In 1995 a peace agreement was signed, leading to the election of Mr Taylor as president. Taylor was elected in 1997 and international observers declared the poll free and fair - leading to hopes of an end to the years of bloodshed. |
|
|
|
Post by Titchaz on Apr 26, 2012 21:23:57 GMT 3
However, the civil war in neighbouring Sierra Leone continued with former army corporal Foday Sankoh and his Revolutionary United Front (RUF) waging a campaign of amputation and rape, and also capturing towns on the border with Liberia West African peacekeepers, known as Ecomog, were also sent to Sierra Leone. Here they are protecting a man accused of collaborating with the rebels from a lynch mob Ghana, Nigeria and others accused Liberia of backing the RUF rebels who mutilated thousands - their trademark was to chop off the hands or legs of civilians. The respite in Liberia was brief, with anti-government fighting breaking out in the north in 1999. Mr Taylor accused Guinea of supporting a rebellion By 1999, Sierra Leone's RUF rebels seized parts of Freetown from Ecomog. After weeks of bitter fighting they were driven out, leaving behind 5,000 dead and a devastated city |
|
|
|
Post by Titchaz on Apr 26, 2012 21:31:49 GMT 3
Stability remained elusive in Liberia. By 2001 the UN Security Council reimposed an arms embargo to punish Mr Taylor for trading weapons for diamonds from rebels in Sierra Leone In 2000 rebels once more closed in on Freetown; 800 British paratroopers were sent to evacuate British citizens and to help secure the airport for UN peacekeepers; rebel leader Foday Sankoh was captured - he later died in custody In 2001 UN troops for the first time began to deploy peacefully in Sierra Leone's rebel-held territory. Disarmament of rebels began, and the British-trained Sierra Leone army also started to move across the country In January 2002 the war in Sierra Leone was declared over. The UN mission said the disarmament of 45,000 fighters was complete. The government and the UN agreed to set up war crimes court By 2003, fighting between Liberia's government and rebel troops spread and many were forced to flee to camps. Talks in Ghana aimed at ending the rebellion were overshadowed by an indictment accusing President Taylor of war crimes over his backing of rebels in Sierra Leone In August 2003, Mr Taylor left Liberia and handed power to his deputy Moses Blah. US troops arrived and an interim government led by Gyude Bryant took control By the end of 2003, US forces were replaced by the UN, which sent thousands of peacekeepers. In 2006, Mr Taylor tried to flee his exile in Nigeria but was caught. He was eventually transferred to The Hague, as it was feared that holding his trial in West Africa could jeopardise the new-found peace in Liberia and Sierra Leone |
|
|
|
Post by job on Apr 26, 2012 21:38:50 GMT 3
Job, a clarification that may be useful for Jukwaa readers: The legal statute referred to is not the Rome Statute but the Statute of The Special Court for Sierra Leone. Neverthless, the Rome Statute has similarities, e.g. in Article 25: In accordance with this Statute, a person shall be criminally responsible and liable for punishment for a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court if that person:
(a) Commits such a crime, whether as an individual, jointly with another or through another person, regardless of whether that other person is criminally responsible;
(b) Orders, solicits or induces the commission of such a crime which in fact occurs or is attempted;
(c) For the purpose of facilitating the commission of such a crime, aids, abets or otherwise assists in its commission or its attempted commission, including providing the means for its commission;
(d) In any other way contributes to the commission or attempted commission of such a crime by a group of persons acting with a common purpose. Such contribution shall be intentional and shall either:
(i) Be made with the aim of furthering the criminal activity or criminal purpose of the group, where such activity or purpose involves the commission of a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court; or
(ii) Be made in the knowledge of the intention of the group to commit the crime;For "group" read "Mungiki" or the "warriors". Thanks for clarifying my omission. You're correct in stating that Statutes of these Special Courts and Tribunals (eg the Sierra Leone one) are modeled around the Rome Statutes which apply to international crimes eg war crimes or crimes against humanity. That explains the similarities. |
|
|
|
Post by patriotism101 on Apr 26, 2012 21:42:45 GMT 3
Folks,The one thing I find interesting in this verdict is that the court ruled that "the prosecution had failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Taylor was part of a joint criminal enterprise" and yet still found him guilty of aiding and abetting the killings. That right there has a lot of significance with the Kenyan cases even though Taylor was tried the Special Court for Sierra Leone and not the ICC proper. The statutes have a lot of similarity, all crafted by the UN to deal with the same type of crimes. I will wait and see the full verdict but I am sure the lawyers for the indicted Kenyans are combing this verdict with a lot of trepidation. It is not good news for them at all. Adongo, My thoughts exactly. It is very interesting that even though the judges determined that Taylor had no control of the rebels (read the network) they still found him guilty of aiding and abetting. As OO would say, tonight some people will experience Jasho nyembamba. Ocampo certainly did his h/work and I think the strategy of "over" charging Uhuruto will ensure some mud sticks on them. Senti 5. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 22:04:57 GMT 3
titchaz
thanks for bringing us the pictures. However, they have messed up the settings on the board. Anything you can do about that?
|
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 26, 2012 22:11:46 GMT 3
GADO brings it home: Hehehehehehehehehe: |
|
