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Post by politicalmaniac on May 22, 2007 0:54:10 GMT 3
www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=1143968915Just logged on to EA Standard And what did I see? Consensus it is! Nothing new really Lets see the rats and vinyagarikas jump ship after R is nominated. Ruto is still making delegates noise and sublocational delegates at that. How does he propose choosing them at sublocational level and them transporting and housing them in a central venue. Why sublocational level? B/cos RV has a disproportionate numbers of them Hehehe Politics indeed. Extract everything to your advantage. I wont begrugde him. In built excuse for defeat it seems
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Post by adongo12345 on May 22, 2007 2:37:24 GMT 3
PM & OthersMy take is that this thing will end up with delegates voting to choose the candidate. I think the consensus route is going to be insurmountable. Objectively Raila would be the strongest candidate at he moment, but that is based more on conjecture than anything else. What would be the basis of determining who has the best chance? Steadman polls? Kenyans wouldn't trust that? How about if another Steadman polls comes out today? Do we switch to the new results? The only way the ODM can pick their presidential candidate by consensus is if the leaders, particularly those with some credible following unanimously agreed to rally behind one candidate. That way there is no need for the delegate system. That will not happen for two reasons. One, is that there are more than one person who are convinced they can beat Kibaki. Certainly both Kalonzo and Raila think they can win. Nobody between the two is going to back down and support the other until and unless they loose fair and square. Actually I think Ruto's position is the most sensible. There is no need to drag the party through another torturous month of building the consensus through endless press conferences where people take pot shots at the Consensus Committee and their rivals, only to finally come to the conclusion that the delegates will choose the candidate. Why not just go straight to the inevitable? The second reason the ODM will not have a consensus candidate is because there are one or two candidates who need an excuse to bolt to Narc K through some "coalition" under the argument "coalition building is the future" of the country. It is now public knowledge that Uhuru Kenyatta and his strategists, kina rafiki yangu, David Murathe are looking for ways to get out. This could lead to Kanu being divided into three. Ruto's Kanu which will stay with ODM K., Biwott's Kanu which will go to bed with Kibaki through the panya route (revival of a fake Narc if they can smother or pumper Ngilu to give up) and Uhuru's Kanu which will go the same route or simply try to be independent at the constituency level but still support Kibaki, ala Muite style. We shouldn't blame them. Uhuru's people want to go to parliament. They stand little chance with ODM. The problem for Uhuru here is that Narc K has many streams of candidates waiting to contest for M.P seats. No way they will give room to kina Murathe. The only route left for Uhuru here is to keep some figment of Kanu alive, use it to contest seats at the local level and support Kibaki. It will ruin his chances of ever making it to the big House, but for now everybody needs to keep their seats and Uhuru is not going to be Mother Teresa for ODM K. Also in my view, even though everybody thinks Kalonzo will be the first one to bolt, I think people will be surprised. Kalonzo will stay in ODM K. Let's not forget that in 2002 before Mudavadi bolted from the Rainbow team, many people thought Kalonzo would be the first one to go. He stayed and he was under extreme pressure. Kalonzo has nothing to gain from Narc K. I am not even going to talk about the Ngilu factor. My sense is that it is more likely for Ngilu to join Kalonzo in ODM and bring her Narc to the party, than for Kalonzo to join Ngilu in Narc/Narc K? It would appear to me that based on the present circumstances, Kibaki's hopes of receiving truckloads of ODM defectors lies with Uhuru. That would leave the ODM pretty much intact, but of course events are still unfolding and one month is a long time in politics. Uhuru's dilemma is that if he bolts before the nomination process is complete, he will be exposed as an opportunist afraid of fair competition. If he waits for the process and the process is deemed fair he has the same problem. That is politics. The good news for the ODM leaders is that they had their "stormy" meeting and everybody was there. There are no hidden behind the scene hands in ODM like Narc K where those who meet to discuss party affairs are not the ones who make decisions. In ODM at least in this case everybody brought their A game to the table. That is a good thing. I also liked the seriousness. The body language isn't that bad either. The bad news for the ODM is we are going to have another couple of weeks where ODM candidates call press conferences to announce, I don't know to who, that they are not returning their nomination papers. Another couple of weeks when we will here more about wrangles and quarrels within the leadership as opposed to what ODM will offer Kenyans should they replace the Kibaki government. I guess it is an irritation we have to live with for a while. It is quite taxing to the membership, but if it is the price to pay for to get a candidate the party is comfortable with, may be it will be worth the hustles. At the end of the day it is the members, just like the Rainbow in 2002, who will hold the party together. Already they have made the leadership understand very well that they have the final whip. That is good news for everybody. Nobody is going to be a King in ODM, the leadership has no choice but to work as a team. Nobody can pull another Kibaki in Kenya. The era of kings is gone in Kenya. We are having the last one. I am sure Raila, Ruto, Kalonzo, Mudavadi and kina Balala na wengineo understand that. Also don't forget this is what the media is telling us. As we know it may not even be half the story. Adongo.
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Post by politicalmaniac on May 22, 2007 3:06:33 GMT 3
I see it a little diffrent
Its obvious R is the strongest candidate and if choice by acclamation (consenseus) R has a solid base to start with and although he will not win round one outright those who fall out will cast his lot wiht him and this will leave him with 50% plus one.
The delegate route will be conducted at the local constituency level and then results tabulated.
Who has the resources, charisma, ground game, notoriety and name recognition to sway delegates NOT from his/her base?
Who has this tract record of delivering votes from one corner to the other?
Either way its R.
If jomo jnr bolts to his home party that wont swing votes either way. If KM bolts same thing, an R led ODM can still survive.
Ruto will cause a lot of damage if he bolts but this may be mitigated in the Kosgeys, Ntimimas, and Koneses of this world remain in ODM.
And where will Ruto go and still wield influence in a winning outfit?
I dont see Ruto bolting.
I dont know or care what jomo jnr does.
KM concerns me but his leaving will result in momentary tectonic shifts with no reccurent after shocks of significance.
Interesting is it not?
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Post by kamalet on May 22, 2007 8:27:57 GMT 3
Raila is probably the strongest ODM candidate on paper, but each of the proposed methods is filled with danger.
Note that 5 of the candidates have refused to submit their papers whilst 4 have submitted theirs - is this indicative of who if for Raila and against him? Of the 4 that have submitted their papers, 3 of them are in the race to secure parliamentary seats through their fake presidential aspirations rather than have a slither of hope of ever becoming president.
In the other group only Nazlin seems handicapped to get a parliamentary seat as the other 4 can comfortably get themselves seats.
So, if we were to take the consensus route and assuming this is consensus amongst the 9 candidates, then the Kalonzo/Uhuru axis could turn the tables on Railas group with higher numbers in the consensus talks. The reason for this is that recently Sally Kosgei - constantly rumoured to be Raila's proposed running mate - has been undermining Ruto's candidature claiming that Ruto cannot be elected president of Kenya and she has a better chance of becoming vice president. This is part of the reason she was booed at Aldao last week.
Uhuru believes that if the delegates system was used, then he probably has a better chance than most as the Kanu grassroot presence is better rooted than that of LDP, hence he could emerge the front runner with a majority of the votes. As the vote numbers without checks for provincial support is what counts this still gives the Uhuru/Kalonzo axis a better number than the Raila group.
Perhaps honour amongst thieves is what can salvage a Raila candidacy - but that would have to mean forcing Kalonzo/Uhuru axis out of ODM which I think is Raila's preferred modus.
It also gives him and perhaps Kalonzo a good escape route out of ODM by claiming rigging and lack of democracy should the vote turn against him.
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Post by adongo12345 on May 22, 2007 14:46:49 GMT 3
Kamalet
You forget a few things:
Returning nomination papers really has little to do with strategy. Everybody have their own reasons. I suspect some just don't want to throw in Kshs 1 million when they know they have no chance.
Secondly, the so-called grand plan of Uhuru/Ruto and Kalonzo is more of the hopes for ther Narc K vultures waiting and salivating to feast on the waste products from ODM K, than a reality on the ground.
The way it looks to me is that all these guys have their own individual "what to do crisis". Ruto from what he has been saying publicly is solidly in ODM. In fact if Ruto was to bolt from ODM it will elevate Sally Kosgei. Ruto is a founder member of ODM, he is not going to leave it for the unknown, least of all to join the Narc K mess where he will be some desperate add on. Kalonzo has the same dilemma. He is a founder member of ODM. Why would he leave it and probably open the door for Ngilu to come in and remember Ngilu has her Narc which Narc K is hoping to wrestle from her. As you can see, things are more complicated than the one plus one test.
Uhuru may need a different game plan because his people want to get to parliament. Can Narc K take them. I don't think so. The House of Narc is overcrowded.
If Ruto, Kalonzo and Uhuru could break out of ODM and form their own alliance with a solid following, that would be another story. But what be the alliance for, to join Narc K, or to fight ODM to what end. Things like the Rainbow alliance of 2002 did not just emerge from thin air. They were products of historical realities.
My point here is that the long awaited grand march of Ruto, Kalonzo, Uhuru ( do you guys want Nazlin too?) out of ODM (to God knows where) is as unlikely today as it was two-three months ago. And this is really the moment your guys have been waiting for and still nothing concrete. What is remarkable for ODM is that even with all the heat, people are talking, they are challenging one another and one gets a sense that most of the key ODM leaders understand the huge following the movement has among Kenyans and nobody wants to abandon that and open the door for a whole knew team.
At any rate for people like you who have been hoping and praying hard to see ODM become and Odinga and by extension a so-called "Luo party" are beginning to get worried that there are so many people out there willing to step in should some ODM leaders bolt because they are not the flag-bearer.
I am not going to tie myself into knots with scenarios of who the delegates could elect due to this or that manipulation. We should start from the assumption that all the candidates have a chance. I kind of tend to trust the ODM membership to choose a person they think can win the presidency. Let's wait and see who that person is.
Adongo.
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Post by 50cents on May 22, 2007 15:50:55 GMT 3
The High Powered Board
ODM Kenya constitutes a nine member election board
BY LABAN WANAMBISI
NAIROBI, May 22 - ODM-K finally constituted a nine member National Elections Board on Monday which would oversee the presidential, parliamentary and civic nominations.
Speaking after chairing the party’s National Executive Committee meeting, Interim Chairman Henry Kosgey said the board included representatives from all the eight provinces.
The members are Retired Justice Otieno Kwach (Nyanza), Dr Wilberforce Wanyanga (Western), Josephine Kuluo and Joseph Biwott (Rift Valley), Janet Masya (Eastern), S.K. Thande (Nairobi), Nassir Maalim Arte (North Eastern), Dr Peter Gachohi (Central) and Zahra Shee (Coast).
“They start work immediately. We are going to call them today and they will have their first meeting tomorrow,” Kosgey told reporters at Orange House.
Kosgey also announced the extension of the deadline for presidential candidates to hand in their completed nomination forms to Friday the 25th of May.
The party resolved on Monday to pick its presidential flag bearer by consensus by the 30th of June.
The interim chairman shrugged off fears that there could be a power struggle between the Council of Elders and NEB saying the two boards have clearly defined functions.
Kosgey said: “The role of Council of Elders is to see if they can achieve a consensus; the Elections Board is not part of the consensus system.”
Najib Balala, Raila Odinga, Musalia Mudavadi and Joseph Nyagah are the only presidential aspirants who have returned their nomination papers.
Four other hopefuls have declined to hand in their nomination papers to the party secretariat, demanding a properly constituted elections board.
They are Uhuru Kenyatta, William Ruto, Kalonzo Musyoka and Dr Julia Ojiambo.
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Post by kamalet on May 22, 2007 16:36:12 GMT 3
Adongo,
What I say may be what NARC would wish for, but then I do not hold fort for them, but that does not mean it cannot be a reality.
As I said, Raila would prefer that those that wish to bolt do so now rather than later as he has stated clearly (and not in the media stories we all read!) that he is not moving and will be the ODM candidate come December.
If that be the case, we must look at the political ambitions of the likes of Kalonzo, Uhuru and Ruto. Any assumption that their being in ODM and expressing their wish for presidency is premised on their love for Kenya and not their unbriddled quest for power is wrong. If I want to be president, then I must present myself to the electorate come what may - and the come what may is quite appropriate for the likes of Kalonzo and Uhuru.
You are definitely wrong to assume that returning nomination papers or not is not part of strategy. Anyone returning the papers binds himself to back the other which we cannot easily assume is correct. Remember that most of the people chasing the presidency today are those that got into the band wagon on the lie that Kibaki had promised to be a one term president hence could wait out the 5 years. All these fellows know whoever gets the president's seat other than Kibaki will be gunning for 10 years, so really the question is can they wait it out that long by saying XYZ tosha?
If any of them was thinking otherwise, then we have a very sorry lot of politicians.
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Post by adongo12345 on May 22, 2007 17:55:43 GMT 3
Yap:
Now we have the NEB. It looks very representative in a regional sense, I am hoping it is also representative in the political sense. You remember Kibaki's idea of regional representation when he was picking ECK members? Kibaki's idea was to pick his friends from different parts of the country. I don't think the ODM can afford such nonsense.
Now the count down is for those who have not returned their nomination papers to bring them in. That is a positive development. No more press conferences about nomination papers.
The one good thing about the way the ODM does their business is that they take their members seriously. People were getting pretty mad and they let the leadership know they have no time for games. The leadership has responded by holding, probably their most serious discussions about taking the movement to the next step. We had the same crisis when some people wanted to create a Kanu/LDP tag of war and the members read the riot act to the leadership to get their act together. They did and turned ODM K into a structured political movement and an election machine.
There will be more challenges ahead, but if the ODM remains responsive to the cries of Kenyans who see the ODM as their only hope away from Kibaki's tribal bulldozers, we will be just a fine.
I like the fact that we can disagree and even confront ODM leaders and still be taken seriously. The ODM has to continue expanding the tent for even more critical voices. Most of those voices are not looking for seats anywhere, so you can't appease them by creating ten posts of Secretary For Crop Development etc. The ODM is entering one of the most critical stages of its development as a national movement capable of taking out the Kibaki regime. Let's see what the leadership has in store for us. They already know what we have in store for them. Kenyans will insist on taking full ownership of their movement.
Adongo
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Post by politicalmaniac on May 22, 2007 19:03:45 GMT 3
Raila is probably the strongest ODM candidate on paper, but each of the proposed methods is filled with danger.. Not only is R the strongest on paper he has a proven tract record that he can deliver nationally at crunch time. Think 02' when the the inept sleepy guy was in London recuperating and it was R who held the Anti Moi campaign together. Even kikiyus grugdingly respect the fella and called him "dume shujaa" when he went to central with 'leader' afterwards. Also it was R who started the "NO" Orange movement that crushed and stunned the MKM led Banana movement. R has the balls to campaign anywhere. Note that 5 of the candidates have refused to submit their papers whilst 4 have submitted theirs - is this indicative of who if for Raila and against him? Of the 4 that have submitted their papers, 3 of them are in the race to secure parliamentary seats through their fake presidential aspirations rather than have a slither of hope of ever becoming president.. KM has NO base outside of Kitui central. Rutos base though large is very local. Seriously do you think Ruto is of now Presidential material? Does he have the gravitas? Even in RValley, Ruto is not the absolute rain maker! Ruto is only strong if combined with R, he knows this I know this and you know this! In the other group only Nazlin seems handicapped to get a parliamentary seat as the other 4 can comfortably get themselves seats. So, if we were to take the consensus route and assuming this is consensus amongst the 9 candidates, then the Kalonzo/Uhuru axis could turn the tables on Railas group with higher numbers in the consensus talks. As I said, Raila would prefer that those that wish to bolt do so now rather than later as he has stated clearly (and not in the media stories we all read!) that he is not moving and will be the ODM candidate come December. Why should R be the one move? He Started LDP, Rainbow, and ODM He and Balala were the only Prez candidates who were in the cabinet who voted for the Bomas draft. KM was hiding in a toilet somewhere quaking in his boots. And R has said that "birds will fly" should they loose. And the fact that KM hasnt returned his papers just makes me suspicious. Is he looking for a graceful exit? All these fellows know whoever gets the president's seat other than Kibaki will be gunning for 10 years, so really the question is can they wait it out that long by saying XYZ tosha. We can only have one Commander in Chief. Others will have to just have to chill and grind teeth. Perhaps these unnecessary new positions (mulitiple VPs and dep PMs) are meant to assuage egos something I definately oppose. |
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Post by adongo12345 on May 23, 2007 6:24:02 GMT 3
Pmaniac
There is only one thing I would like to remind you about, regardless of how passionate you are about a possible election of Raila Odinga as the president of the Republic of Kenya. There will never be another "King" in Kenya residing at State House after Kibaki. He is the last.
Kenyans are determined to end that era. The nation made a few steps, actually big steps when we took Moi and his machinations out in December 2002. But we made a big mistake and we know what that mistake was. It started with the DP doctrine which took over after the 2002 elections. That doctrine was based on the concept of Kibaki the "King" who new everything "hallowed be thy name" yada yada. Mzee was supposed to have no equals to talk to, not even his comrades who helped him to get elected.
Predictably there were no shortages of back door operators and moneybags who always get the full attention of Mtukufu Rais. So at the same time the president is too big to talk to his peers he is ready fodder for back door operatives, conmen, tribal cartels and everybody else who thinks they own Kenya. That has always been the beginning of our ruin as a nation. Never again, we must say now.
Not even Raila can pull the Kibaki trick on Kenyans at this time, and to his credit he has indicated he prefers leadership by team work, devoid of tribalism. He asked the Kenyan people to hold him accountable to that principle. That is exactly what you and me should do.
I can confidently say that, whoever gets the ODM ticket will have to demonstrate to Kenyans that they are team builders not "lone rangers", and I don't care if they are the "Commander-In-Chief".
Just give the nation some security, peace and a sense of collective belonging to a land we all love so much. In other words, "give us our daily bread", through equitable resource distribution and equity in the utilization of national resources as well as commerce and industry. We are much better off building roads in our communities with our scarce resources than building potholes. Those are bare minimum demands for building our diverse country.
I think the more we start talking about the country called Kenya and the less about Raila, a national leader alright, the better for our country. Our history and struggles has and will always produce leaders to help advance the interests of our people, but it has never produced saviours or "messiahs" because we have no need for them. Our future can only be safe in our hands as a people. And it securely is.
Adongo
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Post by aeichener on May 23, 2007 10:05:00 GMT 3
There will never be another "King" in Kenya residing at State House after Kibaki. He is the last. Wrong. The frolicking Raila disciples hail their messiah exactly because they are so tired with a perceived weak old man, who has done more than any other since 1963 to demystify the presidency (as Kamale very perceptively once observed), and because they so yearn for a return of bigmanism. That includes former progressives such as Adongo. Alexander |
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Post by adongo12345 on May 23, 2007 14:53:45 GMT 3
Alex
I am beginning to wonder what your interest in Kenya and the Kenyan struggle really is. I told you it might be difficult putting me in your cute little pigeon holes. I am getting tired of your habit of talking about Adongo this and Adongo that. There is nothing in this thread really about Adongo. This is about the tenth time I have to tell you to quit the sideshows of trying to turn threads about general issues into discussions about Adongo or Miguna. If you want that discussion, just start a thread and if I am interested, I will participate. As an individual I am neglible in terms of what happens to Kenya tomorrow.
If you want to tell us why you think Raila fits what I have referred to as Kenyan "kings"(often with clay feet) please go ahead instead of hiding behind what Adongo was and what Adongo is. I have seen this habit in many fora where every threads quickly turn into discussing personalities who are really not that important in the general scheme of things. I was hoping we could avoid that with your help. Is that too much to ask?
Adongo
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Post by aeichener on May 23, 2007 16:02:17 GMT 3
I am getting tired of your habit of talking about Adongo this and Adongo that. There is nothing in this thread really about Adongo. Except for his copious contributions, indeed. And I am not talking about an absent here, but am criticizing your own postings and the attitude underlying them; an attitude (reckless bigmanism, devout discipleship instead of critical analysis etc.) which alas is shared by many Kenyans though, and thus is far more important than just a personal or private failure. The question what it is in an EXALTED LEADER that Kenyan two-legged sheep of all persuasions await so miraculously when they bleat in chorus for anointed liidaah-sheep, and the question why the concept of service (for a politician in a democracy is a servant of the people, not their Führer) is not understood even with liberals and lefts, this question is not a "sideshow", Adongo. It is at the very centre of political develoment and progress, much more than the brainless personalized bickering against all rivals of one's guru, and the endless politicking about which one of the competing crooks will score points against which other one. Sincerely, Alexander |
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Post by adongo12345 on May 23, 2007 17:21:05 GMT 3
I am getting tired of your habit of talking about Adongo this and Adongo that. There is nothing in this thread really about Adongo. Except for his copious contributions, indeed. And I am not talking about an absent here, but am criticizing your own postings and the attitude underlying them; an attitude (reckless bigmanism, devout discipleship instead of critical analysis etc.) which alas is shared by many Kenyans though, and thus is far more important than just a personal or private failure. The question what it is in an EXALTED LEADER that Kenyan two-legged sheep of all persuasions await so miraculously when they bleat in chorus for anointed liidaah-sheep, and the question why the concept of service (for a politician in a democracy is a servant of the people, not their Führer) is not understood even with liberals and lefts, this question is not a "sideshow", Adongo. It is at the very centre of political develoment and progress, much more than the brainless personalized bickering against all rivals of one's guru, and the endless politicking about which one of the competing crooks will score points against which other one. Sincerely, Alexander Actually I am not interested in the drama. You can try something else. Thank you very much. Let's here about your "centre of political development and progress". Slogans alone wont do. Adongo. |
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Post by maina on May 23, 2007 22:00:37 GMT 3
Adongo,
You are very wrong on this one, my good friend.
Alex is indeed very right here. If there is anything that is at all very authentic with you Raila worshippers, it is the very fact that you hanker for austere "BIGMANISM". That is the true denotation manifested by you (Raila-worhsipers) as you recklessly hail the lousy "Raila Tosah", "R is winning", et cetera. But you are not to blame because that is exactly what your overlord stands for. Even his extremely perspicacious boosters seem to lack reason while uncontrollably bellowing these lousy slogans; a confirmation of BIGMANISM!
But whatever....................
You are right in that this thread is not about you. Neither is it about Raila Odinga although for some aberrant cause, you chose to think so!
Maina
P.S.
R is not winning, unless of course you have rigged the elections beforehand, or you ultimately envision it through necromancy!
-unedited-
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Post by adongo12345 on May 23, 2007 23:15:02 GMT 3
Maina
I can see you have joined the new religion of sloganeering about "Bigmanism" whetever that means. How is "Smallmanism" doing? Not good it seems. What else is new.
I often have little faith and hardly any respect for copycats who parrot stuff they demonstratively have no idea about.
I don't know when you folks are holding your next congregation, but obviously I am not invited.
Next time you want to post something or respond to an issue try being a little original and persuasive. It seems to me you have some standard slogans that you just move from one thread to another. I can swear I show this same rubbish you posted above, word for word, on another thread here on Jukwaa and when I challenged you to show us what you were talking about, you melted only to show up on this thread to throw the same load at us. This is pathetic to put it kindly.
You are welcome to Jukwaa though. Tell us what you think of Kenya, its politics and its people. Where do you think the country is heading in the next ten years or so. Don't worry too much about Raila. Like I said somewhere else it frightens me that those opposed to Raila seem even more obsessed with him. Can you try to at least make one sentence without the name Raila appearing in that sentence. That would be a good start.
Good luck, my friend.
Adongo
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Post by adongo12345 on May 24, 2007 1:00:15 GMT 3
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Post by 50cents on May 24, 2007 17:25:57 GMT 3
Finally
Kalonzo presents his nomination papers, reiterating his election plegdes
Written By:Lilian Mwendo , Posted: Thu, May 24, 2007
Caption: ODM-K presidential aspirant, Kalonzo Musyoka
ODM-K presidential aspirant Kalonzo Musyoka on Thursday presented his nomination papers just a day after the party's election board was sworn in.
Kalonzo had earlier declined to submit his papers until an independent election board was put in place.
Speaking at the party headquarters, Kalonzo reiterated his pledge to provide free secondary education, waive tax for low salaried Kenyans and have 50 per cent women representation in Parliament.
The election board, fresh from Wednesday's swearing in had the first duty of receiving Kalonzo's papers as he rushed to beat Friday May 25, 2007 deadline.
He also presented the mandatory one million shillings nomination fee. He was escorted to the ceremony by several MPs supporting his presidential bid together with his supporters from different parts of the country.
He urged Kenyans to shun tribalism come the elections at the end of the year.
The party resolved during the recently held plenary that it will pick its flag bearer through consensus method by end of next month, though it would explore the delegates system if consensus proves untenable.
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Post by aeichener on May 24, 2007 19:26:06 GMT 3
*YAWN*
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Post by johns on May 24, 2007 20:53:28 GMT 3
Alex,
It is unfortunate that you can afford to yawn while your brothers are busy mutilating and chopping body parts of innocent kenyans. Did you say that Kibaki has done alot? Could not have agreed with you more; looking at the insecurity and the tribal matrix he has introduced into the country, there is no other who has ever done more damage to the country than this man who apparently does not understand what governance entail.
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Post by maina on May 24, 2007 22:47:21 GMT 3
Adongo,
Firstly, you need to restrict your critical analyses to the context of this thread, as conspicuously illustrated by the title herein.
Secondly, I will continue (and prudently, mind you) to express "my standard slogans" to you until you begin to demonstrate a discernible understanding of the signification of your atrocious support for the "BIGMANISM" you surreptiously stand for. In other words, for anyone to boost "Railaism" today, when the ODM has not even officially declared Raila Odinga as its presidential candidate, and while notwithstanding the very fact that elections are yet to be held is just downright ridiculous, if you ask me. But then of course, you are entitled to your opinion(s) in the same way I reserve the right to lambaste you whenever you express these dogmatic opinions.
Thirdly, I have lucidly expressed my vision for our country Kenya in other threads right here in Jukwaa. It seems you did not care to check that before you began to recklessly shred my post above. But anyhow, my main contention with the gist of your post is that ever since your overlord unleashed his big ideas for Kenya a number of days ago, there has been a blind and careless colossal preponderance of worshippers and boosters such as yourself, who have arrogated themselves the role of sealing Kenya's leadership as solely "belonging" to one Raila Odinga. You may deny it, but it is true!
You see I believe that the next best thing to being really inside Kenya's politics (read Kibaki-politics) is to be really outside it. And a particular point of it is that the popular critics of Kenya's politics (the Raila Odingas; and by extension therefore, the Adongos, et alia) are not really outside it. They are on a debatable ground, in every sense of the term. They are doubtful in their very doubts. Their criticism has taken on a curious tone; as of a random and illiterate heckling. Thus they make current and "pro-change" cant as a sort of small-talk. They will complain of parsons dressing like parsons; as if we should be any more free if all the police who shadowed or collared us were plain clothes detectives. Or they will complain that a speech by Kibaki cannot be interrupted, and call his dais a coward's castle; though they do not call an editor's office (at the East African Standard, for example), or even this very Juwaa forum, a coward's castle. It would be unjust both to journalists and Kibaki; but it would be much truer of journalist. Kibaki appears in person and could easily be kicked as he came down the dais; the journalist conceals even his name so that nobody can kick him.
They write wild and pointless articles and letters in the press about why other politicians' arenas are empty, without even going there to find out if they are empty, or which of them are empty. Their suggestions are more vapid and vacant than the most insipid curate in a three-act farce, and move us to comfort him after the manner of the curate in the Bab Ballads; 'Your mind is not so blank as that of Hopley Porter.' So we may truly say to the very feeblest politico: 'Your mind is not so blank as that of Indignant layman or plain politician or man in the Street, or any of their critics in the newspapers; for they have not the most shadowy notion of what they want themselves. Let alone of what you ought to give them.'
They will suddenly turn round and revile the Kibaki administration for not having prevented the tribal clashes, which they themselves did not want to prevent; and which nobody had ever professed to be able to prevent, except some of that very school of progressive and cosmopolitan sceptics who are the chief proponents for change.
Adongo, a "progressive"/"centre-lefter" may be indignant; a "progressive"/"centre-lefter" may be justly indignant; but a "progressive"/"centre-lefter" is not impartial. And it is stark hypocrisy to pretend that the vast majority of Raila worshippers and boosters are in the least impartial. Why should they be impartial, what is being impartial, when the whole of Kenya is at odds about whether the one is their liberator, enthraller, or even their betrayer? I do not pretend to be impartial in the sense that the final act of voting fixes a man's mind because it satisfies his mind, therby justifying his actions and choice. But I do profess to be a great deal more impartial than you are; in the sense that I can tell the Kenyan story fairly, with some sort of imaginative justice to all sides; and you cannot. I do profess to be impartial in the sense that I should be ashamed to talk such nonsense about the Fidel of Cuba as you do about Kibaki or Kalonzo or Uhuru, or to have as little sympathy with Hugo Chavez as you have with the anything anti-Raila.
Adongo, your types are not impartial; you never by any chance hold the historical scales even; and above all you are never impartial upon this point of "change" and transition. You suggest everywhere the grey gradations of twilight, because you believe it is the twilight of the spirit of "change". I propose to maintain that whether or not it is the twilight of the spirit of "change", it is not the daylight of Kenyans.
Now, please stick to the gist of this thread. Alternatively, you may wish to start a new thread about your wild pro-Raila and ""progressive" ideas.
Maina
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Post by adongo12345 on May 24, 2007 23:37:39 GMT 3
Ndugu Maina
I am baffled. Honestly. Actually I am in the process of engaging the services of an interpreter to help me undestand what the heck you are talking about. Wish me luck.
Till then I am your good friend.
Adongo
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Post by mossad on May 25, 2007 0:07:55 GMT 3
Maina
Iam not going to go deep in details of what you said there. but from what i see, you are one pissed off Kibaki suppoter who doesnt know where to go after kabaki losses the election later this year. For once, iam a Uhuru Suppoeter and i have backed him everywhere i've met kenyans who are willing to discuss the ODM affairs. And at the same time, i dont find no offense with Adongo or anybody else who are willing to go all the way and back Raila. I've met quite a lot of Musyoka backers and they too have an interesting point of view.
So get over all the anger and hating coz just like the young black americans like putting it. HATE THE GAME NOT THE PLAYER....
Adios...
Mossad.
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Post by aeichener on May 25, 2007 1:35:08 GMT 3
Maina from what i see, you are one pissed off Kibaki supporter who doesnt know where to go after kabaki loses the election later this year. For once, i am a Uhuru supporter and i have backed him everywhere i've met kenyans who are willing to discuss the ODM affairs. And at the same time, i dont find no offense with Adongo or anybody else who are willing to go all the way and back Raila. I've met quite a lot of Musyoka backers and they too Aha. I see you know a lot of names. So the only thing you do not know is what issue-based politics is. As opposed to bleating mindlessly after any chosen big man. Primitives. Alexander |
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Post by adongo12345 on May 25, 2007 2:48:00 GMT 3
Maina from what i see, you are one pissed off Kibaki supporter who doesnt know where to go after kabaki loses the election later this year. For once, i am a Uhuru supporter and i have backed him everywhere i've met kenyans who are willing to discuss the ODM affairs. And at the same time, i dont find no offense with Adongo or anybody else who are willing to go all the way and back Raila. I've met quite a lot of Musyoka backers and they too Aha. I see you know a lot of names. So the only thing you do not know is what issue-based politics is. As opposed to bleating mindlessly after any chosen big man. Primitives. Alexander I respect your right to freedom of expression. As a matter of fact I think your contributions here in Jukwaa and elsewhere are very positive and very welcome. We disagree often which is what dialogue and debate is all about. If we agreed on everything, there would be no need for discussions. But as a white person, considering the history of colonialism, if I were you I would refrain from using words like "primitives" in reference to Kenyans trying to shape the destiny of their country. Just a thought. Adongo |
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