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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 28, 2005 3:02:44 GMT 3
From: "asego2002" <asego2002@...>
Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:00 pm
Subject: Re: the fear mongering is rather cheap - correction!
> Asego, there is something called plateauing: as in peaking and having no more momentum to rise farther and where the only place to go is down! One party in this debate will end up extremely disappointed when results come in November.
its called the S�ttigungspunkt in german (saturation/absorption point).
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 28, 2005 3:04:12 GMT 3
From: "nmatunda" <matunda@...>
Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:31 pm
Subject: Re: the fear mongering is rather cheap - correction!
It is also a fact that being first of your mark, doesn't mean you will be first at the finish line!
The campaign is going to be a marathon rather than a sprint to the finish line and in due course we will see plunders; many of them I predict by some who today remain too *y for their own good.
It reminds me of the 1992 and 1997 elections in which the opposition started off the gate with confidence that Moi's president was history. They were confounded on both occasions and I can bet you that had Moi been running in 2002, he would have given the Narc campain a run for
their money!
Incumbency has its advantages, some of which are ingrained in our psyches! And for us, especially Africans, going against the grain is not an easy matter! And there is more: 70%+ of Kenyans live in rural areas and what we are seeing in the papers is largely an urban phenomenon. And there is more: few in urban centres, especially the
elite, turn out to vote!
I am watching from my perch, annoyed that I cannot vote!
Matunda Nyanchama
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Post by kamalet on Sept 28, 2005 10:49:11 GMT 3
From: "Odingo Odak" <odak@...>
Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:20 am
Subject: the fear mongering is rather cheap - correction! Ndugu Felix Nyatete, While you are seeing things the same way Ndugu Matunda Nyanchama is seeing, consider the following: The Orange No leading lights are: Raila Odinga, Uhuru Kenyatta, Kalonzo Musyoka, Najib Balala, Ochillo Ayacko, Anyang’ Nyong’o, Musalia Mudavadi, Omingo Magara, Bonaya Godana, Julius Sunkuli, William Rutto et al. In that group I don’t see a Luo-Kalenjin (Nilo-Hamite Alliance) you and your fellow destructors want to see. I see in that group a Rainbow Alliance representing Kenyans from Coast to Ukambani to Kikuyu-land to Western Province to NEP to both Luo and Abagusii Nyanza. The only people supporting the YES campaign are the few Mount Kenya Mafia and Nyachae loyalists from Abagusii Nyanza. It’s a wishful thinking that you see “the YES team romping to victory” come November 21, 2005. The Orange Revolution is a Kenyan affair. There is no way you will reduce it to tribe groups. OO Oloo, It is interesting that you say this. Whilst it is true that those names seem to give the No campaign a national outlook, it may not be as clear cut as you think and the No camp do have their own concerns. Last evening, I had a drink with one of the No camp MPs and as would be expected politics got into the debate. The MP for record purposes is from Rift Valley and the discussion was very insightful. Actually, they are very concerned that their campaign is being looked at as tribal, and they were hoping that the presence of Uhuru and Mwenje would render the ligitimacy they were looking for in their group. He actually had come from a meeting to address that same thing, to ensure that their campaign does not pick up that tribal tag. Their concern is that the campaign should not be seen to narrow down to a luo/kalenjin campaign!! At the moment, the problem is how they slot Kalonzo back to the campaign especially after the announcement of ODM, as well as his continued stay (I hear in Canada!) is causing concern to the Kamba component in the campaign! |
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Post by roughrider on Sept 28, 2005 11:40:31 GMT 3
How about the YES group. Are they faced by the same tribal arithmetic problems that are being discussed here? I am insulted by supposedly knowledgeable Kenyans always seeing things in tribal terms. Kalonzo was in Kisumu for the launch of the ODM and his speech was most refreshing... Uhuru is quite impressive nowadays. In retrospect, I regret not having voted for him in 2002. This is a referendum not a politicalk or tribal supremacy contest. For instance, KNUT and COTU have said NO - are they part of a Luo-Kalenjin alliance?  |
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Post by kamalet on Sept 28, 2005 12:01:44 GMT 3
RR,
This is not a competition because that would be childish. If you cared to read what I wrote, I was referring to a conversation I had with an MP in the NO campaign who alluded to tribal tagging concerns of the NO campaign!
Finally, if you do not see the politics being played out by the actors, then you are in denial!
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 28, 2005 17:31:42 GMT 3
[/quote]
Oloo,
It is interesting that you say this. Whilst it is true that those names seem to give the No campaign a national outlook, it may not be as clear cut as you think and the No camp do have their own concerns.
Last evening, I had a drink with one of the No camp MPs and as would be expected politics got into the debate. The MP for record purposes is from Rift Valley and the discussion was very insightful.
Actually, they are very concerned that their campaign is being looked at as tribal, and they were hoping that the presence of Uhuru and Mwenje would render the ligitimacy they were looking for in their group. He actually had come from a meeting to address that same thing, to ensure that their campaign does not pick up that tribal tag. Their concern is that the campaign should not be seen to narrow down to a luo/kalenjin campaign!! At the moment, the problem is how they slot Kalonzo back to the campaign especially after the announcement of ODM, as well as his continued stay (I hear in Canada!) is causing concern to the Kamba component in the campaign!
[/quote]
Kamale:
Not all "OOs" are Onyango Oloos. If you took three seconds to scan the subject line, you would have noticed that it was another "OO"- Odingo Odak who was responding to Nyatete.
OO (as in Onyango Oloo)
Toronto
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 28, 2005 17:35:10 GMT 3
From: "Odingo Odak" <odak@...>
Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:39 am
Subject: the fear mongering is rather cheap - correction!
Matunda,
It’s interesting how you want to hide under “intellectual argument”, “logic” and “Freudian slip” stuff to exonerate yourself.
You developed a hypothesis which was supported by Felix Nyatete.
You reduced the Orange NO team in the forthcoming referendum to a group of Nilo-Hermites (Luo’s & Kalenjins).
I protested that you are erroneously ethno-lizing the debate.
I responded by giving the names of Orange NO leading lights who are neither Luo’s not Kalenjins – that list includes Najib Balala, Kalonzo Musyoka, Uhuru Kenyatta, Bonaya Godana, Musalia Mudavadi, Julius Sunkuli, Chris Okemo et al.
From that list I see a Kikuyu, Luhyia, Coast rep, Maasai, NEP rep, and Kamba.
I thrust myself into the sea of speculation as to why you insist that the Wako Draft is good for Kenyans.
Up to now, you have only generalized.
You claim you have read the document, you are silent on the executive powers, devolution, Christian courts, process of impeachment of an errant president, land reallocation, eradication of provincial administration …
I was just wondering out loud – could it be that you find the Wako Draft edible and delicious because your “uncle” Simion Nyachae is now heading the PSC?
From your recent postings I also saw a Raila-phobia as a possible reason why you may be uncomfortable with the NO team.
I am not an expert on constitutional law, but like Wanjiku I am going for NO because I hate to see an imperial presidency that can never be impeached. I hate a document that allows a “senile 99- year old” to run for president. I hate a constitution that sets up Christian and other religious courts on earth. I hate a document that deviates from the people’s choice (read Bomas Draft) to suit a selected few at the expense of 30 million Kenyans.
When the NO team run out of ammunition (read selling skills), they resort to attacking Orange NO luminaries.
I saw President Kibaki calling his own ministers (the mighty five) “children” and “foolish” simply because they do not agree with him on the Wako Draft.
You are in that category.
You could sell yourself better if after reading the Wako Draft, you could articulate to us why you think Kenyans need it (1) for itself; (2) as opposed to the Bomas Draft; (3) as opposed to the current constitution.
Then read the position of experts like Wachira Maina and Ababu Namwamba and present alternative solutions.
All the YES team is talking about is “executive powers” – which according to the Wako Draft, is the bedrock of imperial presidency. They have chosen to go blind or “misinterpret” the draft to suit their interests.
If you succeed in arguing for the Wako Draft and responding to the above constitutional experts without resorting to attacking personalities and being general then you may have more Felix Nyatete’s and Kioko’s to join your bandwagon headed for November 21.
I hope you have emergency breaks.
Odak
unedited
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 28, 2005 17:38:12 GMT 3
From: "nmatunda" <matunda@...>
Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:20 am
Subject: Re: the fear mongering is rather cheap - correction!
Odak,
You are free to see things where you choose to see them, even when they don't exist. It is your choice as indeed it is for everyone.
You lack of grasp of my argument and an equal lack of depth in making your point is baffling! It is NOT surprising coming from YOU.
Have a good day.
Matunda Nyanchama
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 28, 2005 21:29:12 GMT 3
From: "Nicholas Mireri" <jagwassi@...>
Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:59 pm
Subject: RE: [africa-oped] Re: the fear mongering is rather cheap - Matunda
Ndugu Matunda,
For a long time,I have known you as a very very sobber writer & thinker, till Banana & Orange politics came.
The only, reason to me,why Kisiis had divergent voting pattern is beacuse we had no "Omogusii" that the Community looked upto who went for the Presidential ballot box,all those your claims were proved otherwise in the last general election when Omogusii vioted for Nyandusi[Nyambuche] to the man.
As a founder member/Chairman of KCA you always spoke fearlessly about the fears I have in Presidential powers & now that does not seem to be an issue to you any longer.If you have a personal inteterest in Matoke [which is your stapple food]then just declare your interest ,more so at a time when Washington DC Office is empty aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
With or without a PM I don't want to see a President with POWERS to do what he so wishes PERIOD & I thus vote NO.
Jagwassi.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 29, 2005 2:41:43 GMT 3
From: "mosaisi1" <mosaisi1@...>
Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:10 pm
Subject: Re: the fear mongering is rather cheap - Matunda
Mireri:
You brought up a very good point when you said, "The only, reason to me,why Kisiis had divergent voting pattern is beacuse we had no "Omogusii" that the Community looked upto who went for the Presidential ballot box,all those your claims were proved otherwise in the last general election when Omogusii vioted for Nyandusi[Nyambuche] to the man."
You only happened to give a look at it from one side.
Anyona came from Gusiiland. He contested presidential elections twice. Why did the Kisiis not vote for their own who also happens to be a national hero?
Was he not worthy?
You also seemed to forget one more aspect of the 2002 elections. In the 2002 elections, Kenyans had Uhuru, Kibaki, Nyachae and Orengo to choose from. Some Kenyans voted for Uhuru because they thought he was a better choice. Other knew that Kibaki is not a good choice but went ahead and voted for him because their tribal chiefs had told them to vote as a block for Kibaki and also because they wanted to be with the bandwagon. The last batch voted for Nyachae because he was a better choice and also as a protest vote. Yes a protest against undemocratic means by which the leader of the coalition was selected. That is how Orengo got his votes when it was a well-known fact that Orengo was to lose his parliamentary seat since Luos only elect leaders are ordered from above.
May be Kisiis saw what the rest of the country failed to see? Now we have come to aknowledge that Kibaki was the worst choice for Kenya.
Given another chance will you vote for Kibaki again? Was it the best decision you ever made?
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 29, 2005 2:45:07 GMT 3
From: "nmatunda" <matunda@...>
Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:22 pm
Subject: Jagwassi - beyond reforms!
Jagwassi,
I haven't changed a bit! It is simple: on this score I stand for one thing (along with many others) against others, also along with many others. We are just active brains at work.
By the way I want this thing over with so that we can beat the politicians on their lies, more lies and counter lies!
These people are perpetually on the road campaigning for power and one wonder when they get to work! Yet those trips across the country are funded from mwananchi's taxes.
Consider this: of more than 60,000 that qualified for university entrance, our capacity can only shoulder 10,000! And this has been the case for the past 15+ years! Now, there are also those (perhaps 200,000+) that didn't attain university entry marks; where do they all go! Of further, what happens to the 400,000+ that fail to go to high school? And we wonder why we have so much crime?
When I talk about putting food on Wanjiku's table, I mean such things as investment in education! As you know such investmet has been shown to be perhaps the single most important predictor of development.
Educated people find creative ways to develop goods and services which in turn provide employment for others.
Educated people apply knowledge in research and development and in the process uplift the general
well-being of the people: looking for cures, efficient ways to meet people's needs, etc.
We are expending a lot of energy generating sparks, little fire! I would like to see us light fires under these problems and hence develop new solutions. The energy our people are expending criss-crossing the country, exploiting Wanjiku's mystery should be spend on matters that are truly meaningful to Wanjiku.
Oriti
Matunda Nyanchama
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 29, 2005 4:50:43 GMT 3
From: "charles mogeni" <charlesmogeni@...>
Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:27 pm
Subject: Re: Banana and Orange
Nic!
I respect the opinion you have expressed about Matunda concerning the Wako draft/New constitution which is headed for a referendum come Nov. 21.
While you argue Matunda has been advocating for the reduction of presidential powers you forget that in the Wako draft which the banana 'republic' is pushing for, the presidents powers have been somehow trimmed.....if the president will hire and parliament scrutinizes appointees then that alone is a way forward to 'a democratic Kenya.'
For long we have written and argued democracy is a process and gradual, democracy as a matter of fact never happens drastically. Voting for the Wako draft does not entirely mean that when it comes law it will never be amended. The current constitution also reached a time when it was never deemed suitable and as it started losing its savor no sooner Kenyans were at the drawing boards forging the way forward.
Matunda appreciates at least Kenyans have crafted something of their own. He aslo acknowledges that the bill currently being debated in Kenya may have some flaws but that doesn't necessarily mean its not a genuine document. Genuine in which sense? For the first time in Kenyan history we have come up with our own document which we should be proud of. It may reflect the old but at least its an improvement, a huge step towards a better tomorrow.
Jagwassi, I know Matunda hasn't changed his mind just because the so called 'Omogusii' is no where running for the top office as you suggest. In fact to judge things via ethnic bridges is tantamount to taking Kenyans back 2 decades ago when ethnism was the name and also the rule of the political game.
Jagwassi! With all due respect you have perceived Nd. Matunda with a wavering opinion. I don't think he has betrayed any course but he's optimistic like president Kibaki himself that a Yes vote means a better situation for Kenya.
Unedited,
Charles Mogeni.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 30, 2005 17:31:16 GMT 3
From: "Odingo Odak" <odak@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:55 am
Subject: the fear mongering is rather cheap/matunda
Matunda,
While you find my arguments below par and void of logic, I would like to remind you of a couple of things.
First the issue that prompted your condescending remarks and judgments on my person and personality was my response to one Felix Nyatete.
Nyatete supported your view that the NO Team is a Nilo-Hermite group (Luo’s and Kalenjins).
I corrected Nyatete and you in suite that the NO luminaries go beyond the two Nilo-Hermite communities.
Now sample this:
Are you not the same Matunda Nyanchama who used moniker “Chebet Kapropita Proud Sista Namba One” back in 2001/2002 to fight those whom you did not agree with in KCA and KOL?
Do you remember when the computer experts found the IP address of the computer used to be yours, you tried to deviate that a guest used that computer. How could a guest who did not know the “fights” at the Kenyan cyber forums reveal so much?
Everyone was flabbergasted, how a PhD in Internet Security could not know that it could be found out that you used a different handle.
That passed.
What we have today is a Raila-phobia of hurricane proportions.
This is prompted by your undying loyalty to one Mzee Simeon Nyachae.
Something is telling you that by supporting Nyachae you may be able to see the inside of parliament as the next MP for Mugirango West in Nyamira District.
Your other frustration comes from KCA.
You cannot use KCA to launch your political ambitions in Kenya anymore.
I saw when you “threatened” to make a Statement and sign “Former President, KCA”.
Back to Abagusii politics. I have some news for you.
Once the NO team wins on November 21, 2005, your “uncle” Nyachae will slowly become irrelevant in Abagusii Nyanza.
Two, your current MP, Finance Assistant Minister Henry Obwocha (Mugirango West, FORD People) is still very popular with the constituents and may make it again in 2007 under normal circumstances. Besides, he is a Nyachae man – meaning he can make it on his own or using the coattail of Nyachae if that will still help in 2007.
Moreover, your sister in law, Mrs. Catherine Moraa Nyamato is still eye-ing the same seat on a LDP ticket (this time) come 2007.
Remember she ran in 2002 on Ford-Asili ticket and came second to Obwocha.
My advice to you.
Nyachae is not holding the key to parliament in Abagusii Nyanza in 2007.
Talk to your friend former MP for Bomachoge, Ferdinand Obure of Minnesota to give you some tips.
He may advice you on the mood of the people on the ground.
Talk to Hon James Omingo Magara (Mugirango South, FORD-P) and find out about “alternatives to Nyachae-ism”.
Further, check with the ECK and people in the know if some new constituencies will be created in Nyamira District.
Finally, do not get so worked up with these cyber debates.
These are just intellectual exercises – they amount to nothing at the end of the day.
If you are serious about joining politics in Kenya, you must go there and join hands with the folks on the ground.
Alternatively if you were serious about vouching for the YES team in the referendum, you could have responded by providing rebuttals to commentaries by experts Wachira Maina and Ababu Namwamba as I suggested but you dismissed me as “shallow”.
Without that, it appears to me that you are supporting the Wako Draft, by extension because Nyachae is for it or because Raila is against it. Sounds simple and generalized but you have not provided an exhaustive alternative argument, other than attacking Raila.
Next time, be careful when you decide to dismiss some of us.
We remember whatever positions you have ever taken on whatever issue and we can read between the lines.
Odingo Odak Mambo Yote Kombe Kich Nyaruath Tije Ng’eny.
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