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Post by einstein on Mar 12, 2013 1:42:26 GMT 3
Where did that venom come from, pal? All I have said is Africans will sort themselves out one way or the other. If it doesn't match your prized western ways well boo-hoo to you. There's no need getting your Oreo self all worked up. Relax....you only live once.... (1) A clarification: the "venom" ( rather unfriendly choice of words) was actually for Ghost Einstein. (2) As I have indicated, we need to avoid unhelpful "emotional blackmail", such as Oreo. Let's try to take a more reasoned approach, and simple questions (as above) would be a good start. Friend, I am one of you. So I know you! So let's skip the nonsense and get serious stuff. See my question above. I just wonder why OtishOtish felt it so necessary to drag my handle in this post even though I have not had any discussion with him on this thread. Are some people on this board still in the right frame of their minds or are they losing it? OtishOtish, why don't you just leave in peace. Why start a fight you might not be able to fight to its logical conclusion? Please stop seeing Einstein's shadows all over the place. You mean nothing to me at all!
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Post by einstein on Mar 12, 2013 1:52:25 GMT 3
[quote author=b6k Kamale, the tragedy is that Otishotish even fails to recognize that his prime motivator for renouncing his citizenship is because he cannot give his mzungu compatriots a valid reason for what his black former compatriots here have done: (1) The fact that we could soon have a President and Vice-President on trial for crimes against humanity is absolutely shocking. People in my other country have been asking me about it over the last 2 days, and I am at a loss at what to tell them.
How this is any different from his admonishment of his wayward black brothers running to the mzungu, only he knows as he seems to believe only validation from his other countrymen is worthy of recognition. Very sad indeed..... Stop being silly, Ghost. That is only one of the points I made, and it is far from my "prime motivation". In that regard, I was trying to point out how certain issues are viewed in certain parts of the world vs. others. In particular: when I get asked, I cannot explain the mindless mayhem that our continent is "famed" for. Please forget the "neo-colonial exploitation" nonsense. It's Africans doing it to Africans, and there has to be a point where we decide that we can sort things out, or we ask to be re-colonised. Personal responsibility! We can go back and forth, playing silly word-games, but all the evidence is that in Africa the "leaders" see lives as cheap. Look all over Africa and recognize the mess that the continent is. And it's not helpful to blame the mzungu who is "after our resources"***(see below) It's Africans doing it to Africans. In the 2007-2008 PEV, Kenyans killed Kenyans by the thousands, Kenyans raped Kenyans by the thousands, Kenyans injured Kenyans by the tens of thousands, .... how many wazungus did you see running around? Wake up. That sort of cheap emotional-blackmailish line belongs to the 1960s and 1970s. Come up with something better. Look at the Kenyan masses as they suffer today and recognize who's responsible. I've said id before, I will say it again: Africans need to wake up and start taking care of Africa and Africans. All this senseless wailing about an unfair world, while the dim-witted tribal lemmings follow there leader to the edge of the cliff, is ultimately self-defeating. Am going to ask you and your sort a very simple question. And I don't want you to be confused about it; so I will put it in a separate posting. What I would like you to do is the following: (i) take your thumb out of your mouth; (ii) having done the preceding, try to re-adjust to the real realities of the world; (iii) read the very simple question and answer it. And if you can't answer it, then just fwack off. OK, are you ready? See the next "isolated" posting. *** I note that even the president of Afghanistan has just claimed that the USA is after its resources! PS. I didn't get the "quotations" right, and I can't be bothered re-doing them, but this and what follows are responses to Ghost Einstein. But invite all interested Jukwaaists to take a stab at the following question. And I will repeat: Africa will get ahead only when Africans start blanking around and start to look out for Africa and Africans.[/quote]
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 12, 2013 2:07:01 GMT 3
I just wonder why OtishOtish felt it so necessary to drag my handle in this post even though I have not had any discussion with him on this thread. Are some people on this board still in the right frame of their minds or are they losing it? OtishOtish, why don't you just leave in peace. Why start a fight you might not be able to fight to its logical conclusion? Please stop seeing Einstein's shadows all over the place. You mean nothing to me at all! Ghost: You are quite right. A million humble apologies. I was cutting and pasting between windows, and I was a bit careless. (That should been your friend, bk6.) But you've been reading all this? That too humbles me. As for a "fight to its logical conclusion", I will surrender right away. As they used to say, I am a lover not a fighter. Peace, Love, & Unity OO P.S " why don't you just leave in peace?"There seems to be the belief that I've permanently left Jukwaa; as per my "opening" bit, that is not the case. I just thought I'd clarify some things and, in the process, ask one or two questions ... e.g. my question above regarding sustenance once the all the noise dies down. In any case, I hope nobody minds if I say something on my own farewell thread. So to speak. If only to set right a few nasties.
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Post by einstein on Mar 12, 2013 3:53:08 GMT 3
I just wonder why OtishOtish felt it so necessary to drag my handle in this post even though I have not had any discussion with him on this thread. Are some people on this board still in the right frame of their minds or are they losing it? OtishOtish, why don't you just leave in peace. Why start a fight you might not be able to fight to its logical conclusion? Please stop seeing Einstein's shadows all over the place. You mean nothing to me at all! Ghost: You are quite right. A million humble apologies. I was cutting and pasting between windows, and I was a bit careless. (That should been your friend, bk6.) But you've been reading all this? That too humbles me. As for a "fight to its logical conclusion", I will surrender right away. As they used to say, I am a lover not a fighter. Peace, Love, & Unity OO P.S " why don't you just leave in peace?"There seems to be the belief that I've permanently left Jukwaa; as per my "opening" bit, that is not the case. I just thought I'd clarify some things and, in the process, ask one or two questions ... e.g. my question above regarding sustenance once the all the noise dies down. In any case, I hope nobody minds if I say something on my own farewell thread. So to speak. If only to set right a few nasties. Apologies accepted but, on a very serious note, NEVER EVER refer to me as GHOST again. I feel insulted by that please. Always keep to the ISSUES and all will be fine.
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Post by b6k on Mar 12, 2013 7:36:35 GMT 3
Ghost: You are quite right. A million humble apologies. I was cutting and pasting between windows, and I was a bit careless. (That should been your friend, bk6.) But you've been reading all this? That too humbles me. As for a "fight to its logical conclusion", I will surrender right away. As they used to say, I am a lover not a fighter. Peace, Love, & Unity OO P.S " why don't you just leave in peace?"There seems to be the belief that I've permanently left Jukwaa; as per my "opening" bit, that is not the case. I just thought I'd clarify some things and, in the process, ask one or two questions ... e.g. my question above regarding sustenance once the all the noise dies down. In any case, I hope nobody minds if I say something on my own farewell thread. So to speak. If only to set right a few nasties. Apologies accepted but, on a very serious note, NEVER EVER refer to me as GHOST again. I feel insulted by that please. Always keep to the ISSUES and all will be fine. Einstein, that Otishotish hasn't been firing on all cylinders since Uhuru wa Kenyatta was declared the winner of the presidential elections has been evident by his numerous verbal ejaculations interjections across a number of threads in his genuine (even though misplaced) quest for justice for IDP's. I know full well why he has zeroed in on yours truly as one of the "nasties" to be sorted. His entire vita opus (life's work) on Jukwaa has come a cropper. No one had more faith in the ICC process than Otishotish. He has scoured the ICC website like a dog in heat until he has undeniably become our resident ICC expert or go to guy. Heck I even commended him once for sounding all lawyerish (sic) when it comes to all things ICC. I now fear his convictions have become a warped obsession. Even when a number of us started seeing cracks appearing within the ICC system, he has always steadfastly championed it & looked forward to its form of justice being served on the O-6, who became the O-4, & now are the O-3. Just when it will become clear to him that ICC will not give him the swift (faster than 90 year justice he & many of us crave for) I cannot say. But I can confirm that of late he has degenerated to little better than a latter day Jukwaa troll a la the R911 mould (may she RIP) to the extent that he saw red enough to believe he was addressing you when clearly he was attacking me nearly 3 days after I posted my missive on his sorry state of mind. It's good to see the pair of you have sorted out your "issues". I personally have no beef with Otishotish. If he believes that when I attack the ICC I am attacking him, well then that says more about him than about me. My point will still remain that the ICC cases are floundering, inspite of Ms Bensouda's best poker face to the contrary. Do not be surprised if Uhuru's case is also withdrawn before June 9th. It is inevitable... Will the Ruto/Sang case also go south? Personally I would hope not, but given Ocampo's disastrous strategy of relying on third party reports/findings, shady witnesses, & not initiating his own thorough investigations, I would not be surprised if it did. Otishotish, my personal message to you. When I bash the ICC, I am not bashing you. It's bigger than you, dawg! If you want to make it so, then so mote it be.
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Post by jakaswanga on Mar 12, 2013 20:02:06 GMT 3
Where did that venom come from, pal?[/size] All I have said is Africans will sort themselves out one way or the other. If it doesn't match your prized western ways well boo-hoo to you. There's no need getting your Oreo self all worked up. Relax....you only live once.... The venom, as you put it, I think, is the cumulative outburst of rage, after a sustained series of poking posts at the [ndemu/rahi] ;D snakes lair EG: Primary motivation [of....] is the inability to explain to the whiteman the voting habits of his country! And earlier on, house negro tab! ---Are these not enough slights to draw blood? enough snipes to invite a streaking shot of venom from the black-mamba's cyanide-tipped fangs? Personally I like comparatives, called wuothi eka ine in dholuo, [untraveled you could think the wheel has not yet been found!]. Looking elsewhere then, one may be pleasantly surprised at the level of mental fire-power other nations [or cultures] direct at a problem which to yours is not a priority in the remotest. [You would be surprised how many nations have elections and do understand the word rigging!] ;D ;D Don't I, as a Kenyan, gape and blink like a moron and ask their pardon: you can not be serious! fwaaak me!] 2. Take Obama's drone-hit execution of young Alawaki, the son of Snr. Junior is actually an American citizen, and was only in Yemen to seek his long-lost dad, when Obama ordered a kill-hit that obliterated the teenager. --Polarised Congress has demanded an answer as to the legal base of this action in American law, and the POTUS has been forced to come to congress himself to ask for time, as, it is said, a dream-team of lawyers from America's finest colleges, eat their nails at the Attorney Generals quarters. [NB: the legal document produced to underpin the indiscriminate drone use on foreigners is itself no joke. Said to be 80 pages with 200 pages of footnotes. Top minds dredged the American constitution to what they call scrape-bottom. So serious is this thing to that country.] security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/25/death-of-u-s-teenager-in-drone-strike-stokes-debate/---Wont I love a similar document on the integrity chapter on the new constitution of Kenya, dream team lawyers teaching me integrity as I gape at their mental firepower! Alas! No jurisdiction is the terse call!--- ;D ;D But to continue where law is taken seriusly, Obama has suddenly realised others could be gunning for impeachment on this latest issue. What is the issue? Under what conditions, under US law, can the American president order the execution, or murder, of a fellow American without an arrest warrant, nor etc etc etc. What is CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER, in this case. --The easy answer they say is it was an ACCIDENT! [problem is it was covered up!]This 'accidental killing' of a fellow citizen would be nothing in many countries. In the USA, it is a question of whether the president is still fit to occupy that office. And the best brains tear apart the constitution to find meaning and or justification or otherwise. I personally then find it very important to understand the philosophy behind such seriousness with the laws of ones country, and if only the whiteman's land exhibits this trait, that is where I will doing my best listening because my heart and brains seek enlightenment and demand to understand political frameworks which bestow the greatest respects to the lives of their citizens. Now, if some with dumb Africans think that is seeking vindication from the whiteman, I personally wont be venomous in retort, I will attempt to teach the difference, but I can understand other more tempestuous bullies like Otishotish going raving loco at such dummies! It is a dog's life, being a teacher, and yeah, some have to live the dog's life. WTF!
NB: The GCG of Raila and Kibaki did arrest and rendit her citizens, Kenyans, without legal recourse nor rendition treaties, to both Uganda and the USA. --Very few people, even on the cerebral Jukwaa, have shown outrage at this insane, criminal step. Arresting your own citizens and deporting them to be tortured by foreign states! It shows you the level of Kenyan understanding of certain issues. Definitely not worth arguing with.
i can understand otishe's frustration at you lawyers! or ghosts or nuisances, or whatever it is your avatars portend! Very Pumbavu people kabisa!
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Post by jakaswanga on Mar 12, 2013 20:31:32 GMT 3
Aren't they all doing that. Apart perhaps from Kalonzo who is probably trying to make up his mind if to fight or concede Heheheee! And what would Kalonzo be conceding? I thought it is only a presidential candidate and not the running mate who can concede. Oh me, oh my! If the running mate has a better mathematical sense and can read the numbers and see he is defeated, he can concede, accept defeat. Running mate does not mean you have to deny reality together with your Senior in the ticket. You can opt out and embrace the truth. It is not a suicide pact, but a ticket.
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Post by mank on Mar 12, 2013 20:32:27 GMT 3
. ... . No one had more faith in the ICC process than Otishotish. Actually I had lots of faith in the ICC myself, and I am among those most disappointed. My disappointment is different from that shown by OtishOtish though. Otish and some others just wanted Muthaura and Uhuru, and perhaps Ruto to be jailed. Here, I was interested in the real culprits getting their day with the claws of justice. For a long time I entertained the possibility that probably there was reason Muthaura and Kenyatta were the suspects although it id not make sense that they would have been the planners of chaos at the time (their positions at the time just did not sync with the theory of them having anything to gain from such chaos). The fact that the evidence against them was manly from one individual with lots left to be desired about his authenticity was very troubling. At this point I conclude that, not only was the individual a liar, but Ocampo and his helpers knew it! In fact it seems to me that the fellow may not have been prepared to take it to the extents it went, and that certain key allegations may not even have been his own. In his recanting the testimony he did allude to the idea that some of the evidence was planted on the sheet of paper and were not his. ... there is reason to consider that as quite probable: Think of it - when I heard the narration of evidence I stated in no uncertain terms that the guy was lying. I said he definitely had not to any meeting of the sort he narrated in his evidence, and that his lies demonstrated that he did not know Muthaura's tribal background:- think about that for a second! It turned out the guy was a Kikuyu, and someone highly engaged in the politics of the day, in Nairobi! I highly doubt that he did not know Muthaura was not Kikuyu! So what, you may wonder: I suggest, if he actually made allegations of the meeting himself, a meeting we now know may not have been of the nature alleged, then he did not intend for his lie to carry the day - else why would he drop the ball so badly, alleging something any mugikuyu or mmeru will tell "no chance it happened that way"? But if he did not want his lie to carry the day, then why tell it at all? My guess now, he never talked about Muthaura sending the youth to RV ... someone else put that "evidence' there! ... if Ocampo wanted to know the truth, he would have found this out. He did not want to know the truth, and he probably knew the truth. Pfff .... that's how the ICC has lost credibility in my mind. I believe Jendayi Frazer is right when she dismisses it as a player in geopolitics.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 12, 2013 22:02:42 GMT 3
Mank
When you have the likes of Makau Mutua,Maina Kiai and Hassan Omar soliciting witnesses for the ICC, in their mind anyone from Mt. Kenya spoke kikuyu so poor Muthaura was easily capable of shouting in gikuyu, notwithstanding his heavy menu accent when he speaks English.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 22:42:50 GMT 3
Mank When you have the likes of Makau Mutua,Maina Kiai and Hassan Omar soliciting witnesses for the ICC, in their mind anyone from Mt. Kenya spoke kikuyu so poor Muthaura was easily capable of shouting in gikuyu, notwithstanding his heavy menu accent when he speaks English. excuse me. i need proof that civil society actors were involved in "soliciting witnesses" as you say. and please, of cause muthaura speaks fluent kikuyu. he is a meru, junior cousins of the annointed kikuyus. it's our job to know your language and to support you at every turn our masters.
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Post by abdulmote on Mar 12, 2013 23:05:55 GMT 3
Kathuree,
You left me mentally frozen for a good few minutes! That is a very strong and significant statement you have made up there. Some of us will certainly be curious on the meaning behind your words. What is this 'cultural/ethnic superiority/inferiority' relationship do you have in your mind? Can you enlighten us as well, that we may know of this 'grave matter' and learn from it?
It is a topic on its own worthy of our attention, if only you can tell us what you know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 23:49:30 GMT 3
Kathuree,You left me mentally frozen for a good few minutes! That is a very strong and significant statement you have made up there. Some of us will certainly be curious on the meaning behind your words. What is this 'cultural/ethnic superiority/inferiority' relationship do you have in your mind? Can you enlighten us as well, that we may know of this 'grave matter' and learn from it? It is a topic on its own worthy of our attention, if only you can tell us what you know. abdul there's this little problem of unjust hierarchies among MK people. socially constructed hierarchies. kikuyus are the boss of all GEMA and have considered us junior cousins for a long time now. see what murungi said here, "Mr Murungi had accused The National Alliance of treating them like lesser partners." trust me, he wasn't thinking only of his MBAS but of the relationship between kikuyu power brokers and their meru counter parts. i hope that explains it.
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Post by b6k on Mar 13, 2013 2:05:25 GMT 3
Where did that venom come from, pal?[/size] All I have said is Africans will sort themselves out one way or the other. If it doesn't match your prized western ways well boo-hoo to you. There's no need getting your Oreo self all worked up. Relax....you only live once.... The venom, as you put it, I think, is the cumulative outburst of rage, after a sustained series of poking posts at the [ndemu/rahi] ;D snakes lair EG: Primary motivation [of....] is the inability to explain to the whiteman the voting habits of his country! And earlier on, house negro tab! ---Are these not enough slights to draw blood? enough snipes to invite a streaking shot of venom from the black-mamba's cyanide-tipped fangs? Personally I like comparatives, called wuothi eka ine in dholuo, [untraveled you could think the wheel has not yet been found!]. Looking elsewhere then, one may be pleasantly surprised at the level of mental fire-power other nations [or cultures] direct at a problem which to yours is not a priority in the remotest. [You would be surprised how many nations have elections and do understand the word rigging!] ;D ;D Don't I, as a Kenyan, gape and blink like a moron and ask their pardon: you can not be serious! fwaaak me!] 2. Take Obama's drone-hit execution of young Alawaki, the son of Snr. Junior is actually an American citizen, and was only in Yemen to seek his long-lost dad, when Obama ordered a kill-hit that obliterated the teenager. --Polarised Congress has demanded an answer as to the legal base of this action in American law, and the POTUS has been forced to come to congress himself to ask for time, as, it is said, a dream-team of lawyers from America's finest colleges, eat their nails at the Attorney Generals quarters. [NB: the legal document produced to underpin the indiscriminate drone use on foreigners is itself no joke. Said to be 80 pages with 200 pages of footnotes. Top minds dredged the American constitution to what they call scrape-bottom. So serious is this thing to that country.] security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/25/death-of-u-s-teenager-in-drone-strike-stokes-debate/---Wont I love a similar document on the integrity chapter on the new constitution of Kenya, dream team lawyers teaching me integrity as I gape at their mental firepower! Alas! No jurisdiction is the terse call!--- ;D ;D But to continue where law is taken seriusly, Obama has suddenly realised others could be gunning for impeachment on this latest issue. What is the issue? Under what conditions, under US law, can the American president order the execution, or murder, of a fellow American without an arrest warrant, nor etc etc etc. What is CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER, in this case. --The easy answer they say is it was an ACCIDENT! [problem is it was covered up!]This 'accidental killing' of a fellow citizen would be nothing in many countries. In the USA, it is a question of whether the president is still fit to occupy that office. And the best brains tear apart the constitution to find meaning and or justification or otherwise. I personally then find it very important to understand the philosophy behind such seriousness with the laws of ones country, and if only the whiteman's land exhibits this trait, that is where I will doing my best listening because my heart and brains seek enlightenment and demand to understand political frameworks which bestow the greatest respects to the lives of their citizens. Now, if some with dumb Africans think that is seeking vindication from the whiteman, I personally wont be venomous in retort, I will attempt to teach the difference, but I can understand other more tempestuous bullies like Otishotish going raving loco at such dummies! It is a dog's life, being a teacher, and yeah, some have to live the dog's life. WTF!
NB: The GCG of Raila and Kibaki did arrest and rendit her citizens, Kenyans, without legal recourse nor rendition treaties, to both Uganda and the USA. --Very few people, even on the cerebral Jukwaa, have shown outrage at this insane, criminal step. Arresting your own citizens and deporting them to be tortured by foreign states! It shows you the level of Kenyan understanding of certain issues. Definitely not worth arguing with.
i can understand otishe's frustration at you lawyers! or ghosts or nuisances, or whatever it is your avatars portend! Very Pumbavu people kabisa! Jakaswanga, as I said earlier my posts were not meant to "poke" our former Kenya citizen, Otishothat. Why the fwaak would I do that? At least his keyboard has finally gone silent & I hope that has to do more with him appreciating what the word farewell means than anything to do with sticky keys. But, I digress. Your parallel story is intriguing. At the end of the day, even the POTUS does resort to killing his own (as we do in Africa) & illegal rendition (or extradition of an otherwise innocent person) is a wrong that has never quite gotten the amount of outrage from the "do-gooders" in KE.....
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Post by b6k on Mar 13, 2013 2:19:16 GMT 3
Kathuree,You left me mentally frozen for a good few minutes! That is a very strong and significant statement you have made up there. Some of us will certainly be curious on the meaning behind your words. What is this 'cultural/ethnic superiority/inferiority' relationship do you have in your mind? Can you enlighten us as well, that we may know of this 'grave matter' and learn from it? It is a topic on its own worthy of our attention, if only you can tell us what you know. abdul there's this little problem of unjust hierarchies among MK people. socially constructed hierarchies. kikuyus are the boss of all GEMA and have considered us junior cousins for a long time now. see what murungi said here, "Mr Murungi had accused The National Alliance of treating them like lesser partners." trust me, he wasn't thinking only of his MBAS but of the relationship between kikuyu power brokers and their meru counter parts. i hope that explains it. [/quote KK, do these "unjust hierarchies" only occur in MK? Have you really never seen the same happen in the western part of KE? Follow this link to see the "lesser partners" of your demagogue: westfm.co.ke/index.php?page=news&bid=7420No region has a monopoly on the game of numbers with "like-minded" people, unless you have your head in the ground like an ostrich. Whether you call it shemeji or wa nyuba it all amounts to the same thing....
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Post by b6k on Mar 13, 2013 2:32:02 GMT 3
. ... . No one had more faith in the ICC process than Otishotish. Actually I had lots of faith in the ICC myself, and I am among those most disappointed. My disappointment is different from that shown by OtishOtish though. Otish and some others just wanted Muthaura and Uhuru, and perhaps Ruto to be jailed. Here, I was interested in the real culprits getting their day with the claws of justice. For a long time I entertained the possibility that probably there was reason Muthaura and Kenyatta were the suspects although it id not make sense that they would have been the planners of chaos at the time (their positions at the time just did not sync with the theory of them having anything to gain from such chaos). The fact that the evidence against them was manly from one individual with lots left to be desired about his authenticity was very troubling. At this point I conclude that, not only was the individual a liar, but Ocampo and his helpers knew it! In fact it seems to me that the fellow may not have been prepared to take it to the extents it went, and that certain key allegations may not even have been his own. In his recanting the testimony he did allude to the idea that some of the evidence was planted on the sheet of paper and were not his. ... there is reason to consider that as quite probable: Think of it - when I heard the narration of evidence I stated in no uncertain terms that the guy was lying. I said he definitely had not to any meeting of the sort he narrated in his evidence, and that his lies demonstrated that he did not know Muthaura's tribal background:- think about that for a second! It turned out the guy was a Kikuyu, and someone highly engaged in the politics of the day, in Nairobi! I highly doubt that he did not know Muthaura was not Kikuyu! So what, you may wonder: I suggest, if he actually made allegations of the meeting himself, a meeting we now know may not have been of the nature alleged, then he did not intend for his lie to carry the day - else why would he drop the ball so badly, alleging something any mugikuyu or mmeru will tell "no chance it happened that way"? But if he did not want his lie to carry the day, then why tell it at all? My guess now, he never talked about Muthaura sending the youth to RV ... someone else put that "evidence' there! ... if Ocampo wanted to know the truth, he would have found this out. He did not want to know the truth, and he probably knew the truth. Pfff .... that's how the ICC has lost credibility in my mind. I believe Jendayi Frazer is right when she dismisses it as a player in geopolitics. Mank, I equally had a lot of faith in the ICC justice system. If you peruse the archives of Jukwaa you will even find a missive from yours truly highlighting the timelines of the ICC Sudan case; how it started from junior players & logically worked its way up to the principal(s) in that country & how I hoped it would equally work its way up in KE. Alas, our Kenya situation cases have been collapsing as time goes by, primarily because the Kenyan suspects ALL did the unthinkable & cooperated with the kangaroo court by voluntarily putting themselves at its mercy from the get go. One is left with the impression that the more you resist the ICC, the more the noose tightens (as can be seen with Uhuruto who defiantly embarked on their prayer rallies). The meek, like Kosgey, Ali, & now Muthaura have been set "free". Also, as the German judge at the PTC had always argued, the KE situation, as horrendous as it was to us here, was in reality a rather minor affair when compared with the situation in the DRC or Sudan....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 3:18:21 GMT 3
Kathuree,You left me mentally frozen for a good few minutes! That is a very strong and significant statement you have made up there. Some of us will certainly be curious on the meaning behind your words. What is this 'cultural/ethnic superiority/inferiority' relationship do you have in your mind? Can you enlighten us as well, that we may know of this 'grave matter' and learn from it? It is a topic on its own worthy of our attention, if only you can tell us what you know. abdul there's this little problem of unjust hierarchies among MK people. socially constructed hierarchies. kikuyus are the boss of all GEMA and have considered us junior cousins for a long time now. see what murungi said here, "Mr Murungi had accused The National Alliance of treating them like lesser partners." trust me, he wasn't thinking only of his MBAS but of the relationship between kikuyu power brokers and their meru counter parts. i hope that explains it. [/quote KK, do these "unjust hierarchies" only occur in MK? Have you really never seen the same happen in the western part of KE? Follow this link to see the "lesser partners" of your demagogue: westfm.co.ke/index.php?page=news&bid=7420No region has a monopoly on the game of numbers with "like-minded" people, unless you have your head in the ground like an ostrich. Whether you call it shemeji or wa nyuba it all amounts to the same thing.... B6K all folks have unjust hierachies. that's why we say that we live in an unjust world. it's a work in progress, this struggle against the devil's apostles and those who have God's angels on their side. but right there i was speaking specifically about the relationship between the G in GEMA and the other lowly members of that org. among the kikuyu themselves, there are all sorts of contradictions and unjust hierachies. class, regionionalism, gender and not to forget one of life's equalizers, homosexuality, HOMOPHOBIA and it's acompaning heteo-normativitey. are you still with me?
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Post by mank on Mar 13, 2013 3:53:27 GMT 3
Mank
When you have the likes of Makau Mutua,Maina Kiai and Hassan Omar soliciting witnesses for the ICC, in their mind anyone from Mt. Kenya spoke kikuyu so poor Muthaura was easily capable of shouting in gikuyu, notwithstanding his heavy menu accent when he speaks English. You mentioned them right in the order I was thinking of them in this regard. Oh, yes, them champions of human rights, we had never been so coned! I know it was their fiction, what I wonder is whether they let the big O in on the lie, or they fooled him to his ultimate embarrassment. Is any of them saying anything these days? We never had their silence after a progress report on "the Kenya case" before. That applies more to Maina Kiai and and Makau Mutua. Perhaps they are busy making amends with their boss, whoever that may be, after what has happened with their skim.
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Post by mank on Mar 13, 2013 4:17:04 GMT 3
I hear you B6k. You said .... ALL did the unthinkable & cooperated with the kangaroo court by voluntarily putting themselves at its mercy from the get go. ... In hindsight the surprise sense of cooperation makes sense. They trusted light would shine, and it has. Early in the process I happened to be a party where I met a number of Rwandese people. We striked conversation, and I asked them about their views on the ICC. That was right at the time when some politicians were threatening a move to excise Kenya from the Rome statute. I think it was because I was so opposed to what our politicians were plotting that I have so long refused to believe what those Rwandese told me. They were very clear: I cannot quite quote, but it was something like "ICC may get somebody, but it is not necessarily because that person is guilty. It's intervention is more political than about justice, and at the end it is just out to convict whoever it spends time on than reach justice." I was shocked by their distrust for an institution I thought had delivered a good measure of justice in their country's situation. Now I remember O inflating himself on The Bench. At the time I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, "perhaps he knows something", although I had already started losing confidence. So many times I would say, remember this guy is from Argentina, a place I would expect exhibits complications not too unlike Africa, so why would he be so naive ... well, it turns out he was as naive as I refused to assume.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 13, 2013 4:46:41 GMT 3
I hear you B6k. You said .... ALL did the unthinkable & cooperated with the kangaroo court by voluntarily putting themselves at its mercy from the get go. ... In hindsight the surprise sense of cooperation makes sense. They trusted light would shine, and it has. Early in the process I happened to be a party where I met a number of Rwandese people. We striked conversation, and I asked them about their views on the ICC. That was right at the time when some politicians were threatening a move to excise Kenya from the Rome statute. I think it was because I was so opposed to what our politicians were plotting that I have so long refused to believe what those Rwandese told me. They were very clear: I cannot quite quote, but it was something like "ICC may get somebody, but it is not necessarily because that person is guilty. It's intervention is more political than about justice, and at the end it is just out to convict whoever it spends time on than reach justice." I was shocked by their distrust for an institution I thought had delivered a good measure of justice in their country's situation. Now I remember O inflating himself on The Bench. At the time I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, "perhaps he knows something", although I had already started losing confidence. So many times I would say, remember this guy is from Argentina, a place I would expect exhibits complications not too unlike Africa, so why would he be so naive ... well, it turns out he was as naive as I refused to assume. Mank,How so true the Rwandese observations were. If only we knew. Having lived the ICC experience, I am sure majority of Kenyans will today tell you the exact same thing. I am sure you can remember how our membership here used to vilify Matsanga for saying the exact same thing. But now, here we are; all he said about this court and its owners is unraveling right in our own eyes.
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Post by mugabe on Mar 13, 2013 11:24:42 GMT 3
mank
Critics of the ICC like you rarely get your facts right. Ati the ICC delivered justice in Rwanda? Seriously get your facts right. ICC had nothing to do with Rwanda because it does not have retroactive jurisdiction as the genocide took place in 1999. So tell me what is the relevance of the views of this Rwandese friends of yours if they have had no experience with the said court? Get your facts right next time.
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Post by mugabe on Mar 13, 2013 11:28:07 GMT 3
typo- genocide took place in 1994 the court was established in 1999.
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Post by mank on Mar 14, 2013 16:31:09 GMT 3
mank
Critics of the ICC like you rarely get your facts right. Ati the ICC delivered justice in Rwanda? Seriously get your facts right. ICC had nothing to do with Rwanda because it does not have retroactive jurisdiction as the genocide took place in 1999. So tell me what is the relevance of the views of this Rwandese friends of yours if they have had no experience with the said court? Get your facts right next time. It may not have been called ICC. It is not the name that is the issue, it is the composition and conduct that the Rwandese were talking about, and that we are talking about now. Whatever the institution was called which dealt with Rwanda is what the Rwandese friends of mine were talking about. Incidentally we have people who have stood in ICC saying exactly what I am saying here. And since your facts are so correct, and I am ready to admit that I may be incorrect in terminology (but not substance), tell me what this is about" www.rnw.nl/international-justice/article/icc-deliberates-trial-against-rwandan-rebel-leaderDo I see the following? So you tell me - do the Rwandese have an experience like we have had, or do they not? To set you straight on a minor point, I have not always been a critic of the ICC. I have become one only recently, after I have been convinced that it is a fraud!
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Post by jakaswanga on Mar 14, 2013 20:04:03 GMT 3
mank Critics of the ICC like you rarely get your facts right. Ati the ICC delivered justice in Rwanda? Seriously get your facts right. ICC had nothing to do with Rwanda because it does not have retroactive jurisdiction as the genocide took place in 1999. So tell me what is the relevance of the views of this Rwandese friends of yours if they have had no experience with the said court? Get your facts right next time. Mugabe, Is it the wording bothering you so much: International Criminal Court, as opposed to International Criminal Tribunal FOR Rwanda? --lauched by a UN resolution? and not quartered at the Hague but Arusha?THE FOLLOWING IS FROM WIKIPEDIA: I think Mank is correct in substance.
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Post by mank on Mar 15, 2013 0:29:50 GMT 3
mank
Critics of the ICC like you rarely get your facts right. Ati the ICC delivered justice in Rwanda? Seriously get your facts right. ICC had nothing to do with Rwanda because it does not have retroactive jurisdiction as the genocide took place in 1999. So tell me what is the relevance of the views of this Rwandese friends of yours if they have had no experience with the said court? Get your facts right next time. Mugabe, Is it the wording bothering you so much: International Criminal Court, as opposed to International Criminal Tribunal FOR Rwanda? --lauched by a UN resolution? and not quartered at the Hague but Arusha?
THE FOLLOWING IS FROM WIKIPEDIA: .... I think Mank is correct in substance.[/quote] Poor Mugabe thinks everyone just makes things up around here. Some of us are not in that business, and it is irritating that he would jump about pettiness thinking its a "Gotya moment".
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Post by mank on Mar 15, 2013 1:02:18 GMT 3
Listening to the recording of what Mugabe believes did not occur sounds like listening to the Kenya cases all over again. The defense makes the same observations we made in the Kenya case: that the prosecution only set to beat up emotions ... remember how they kept singing about the murders in Kenya, as if murders were in question, or as if once murders were ascertained then it would follow that the men in court were responsible? What court believes in such kind of "evidence"? Oh, yeah, the "common plan" chorus. Its trash!
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