dineo
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by dineo on Jun 28, 2013 22:46:18 GMT 3
Kathure,
I fully note and agree.
In the story on Mombasa Imams that I posted, the absurdity of the clerics’ stance was that married men would somehow be immune to committing acts of pedophilia against girls or boys. Or that men who commit sodomy willingly with other willing men (gay men) are automatically pedophiles. An Imam can be gay and go about his duties without sexually abusing children. Just as there may be gay Catholic priests who discharge their pastoral duties without committing acts of pedophilia on their underage male flock.
What I am against is the equating of sodomy (I suppose the clerics meant homosexuality) with pedophilia. The clerics chose to rope in the entire homosexual community when they should have focused on the pedophiles within their midst.
It was not my intention to imply that gay men are running madrasas all over the country. My point – not illumined in my post – was that there is a problem of pedophilia in Islam in Mombasa. And the form of pedophilia is largely that of men raping boys – whether those men are married, single or celibate. In the heat of my response to what I considered to be religious blackmail, I appended it to the line on the gay presence in Lamu and Mombasa, and in doing so wrongfully implied that I equated pedophilia with homosexuality. My bad. It should not have appeared in this thread.
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Post by foresight on Jun 28, 2013 23:51:45 GMT 3
Kathure - OtishOtish- Dineo…
My desire is not to derail this thread; I have made it clear that I am for the rights and legal representation and rights of all homosexuals, prostitutes, thieves, murderers, etc. I am not looking to convert anyone, forgive me if you feel convicted.. I am a not just a Christian… I am a born again Christian... true christianity is not a religion... it is a lifestyle...and I live it..
None of the labels you ascribe to me [fanatic, homophobic, etc] accurately capture what I do, my character and the service I offer to people and community.. I don't just discuss these matters.. I am involved hands on with and in the lives of many people.
So an act is moral or immoral according to whether it contravenes a moral standard.
To this extent morality is similar to legality because in each case the act must be referred to some other standard to know whether it is moral or immoral, legal or illegal. The difference between morality and legality and rights is the source of the standard to which each refers.
HOMOSEXUALITY FALLS UNDER IMMORAL ACTS just like prostitutions etc…
I know that you guys also know that legality and rights is defined by reference to a standard decided by humans.
Kenya like most countries has legislators, parliament, councils, courts and judges and, through people like you, advocacy is made as to what will be and will not be legal and just in a country or region.
Friend’s morality is not obtained in the same way that rights and legality is. One, morality is not defined by any human individual or institution or organization, two while some morality is taught to you, some morality is built-in to you from the beginning and three moralities is not something you can alter as you please.
For example you cannot just wake up one day and say adultery, is morally right; Adultery will always be immoral. The moral laws of the universe have this same independent character and so they do not change to suit Kathure Dineo or OtishOtish etc.
If the nature of God means that dishonesty is immoral then it is immoral. It will be immoral no matter how much you think it would be convenient for you to be dishonest.
Since I am a Christian I believe that morality is defined by the nature of God and is therefore an inherent, unchangeable quality of the universe created by God. In other words the nature of God does not alter to suit your individual preferences any more than the earth will alter its orbit to please you with say… warmer climate in winter. If the nature of God means that homosexuality is immoral then it is immoral. It will be immoral no matter how much you think it would be convenient for you to be homosexuals.
Suppose you need some extra money to feed a child and you could get that money by being a prostitute and you sleep with as many men or women after work to get that money given the circumstances.
Would it be immoral? The answer is plainly yes, it would be immoral. The immoral nature of prostitution will not be changed by the fact that you are selling your own body to feed your hungry child or children any more than gravity will stop working in order to keep a falling man alive for the sake of his wife and children.
Is this unfair?
No it is actually very fair because the rules of morality are, like the rules of gravity, exactly the same for everyone. Just imagine yourself falling from a very high building. You might not understand the so-called laws of gravity, indeed you might never have heard of such things.
One thing you do understand though is in a few moments you are going to hit the ground very hard and you won’t like it in anyway. Your personal preference will be that you don’t get hurt because, perhaps you have a husband or wife and children or just dependents waiting for your weekly wage or, more likely you just don’t like the pain and you don’t want to die.
Notwithstanding your circumstances, your preference and your understanding will not alter what you are about to experience in the smallest way. The time it takes for you to hit the ground and how hard you hit the ground will be determined by such things as your body mass, the density of the air, the height from which you fell, the surface area of your clothes and the strength of the gravitational field at that point on the earth. Trust me, whether you understand any of these things or not, or you like these things or not or you desire this experience or not will not change what is about to happen to you in the slightest. As far as the outcome of your fall is concerned, your understanding and your desire are irrelevant…. except that, if you survive, you might learn something about the physical laws of the universe from the experience. Something you will never forget…
Similarly divine justice shows neither fear nor favour. It might be interesting to consider this "no fear nor favour" approach to justice because, I suspect, you don't fully understand its scope. A policy of “No discrimination” on account of circumstances means exactly NO discrimination on account of circumstances.
The wealthy ruler and the impoverished father will be judged on exactly the same scales; they will be measured against exactly the same standard.
Clever arguments will not be put into consideration…
A policy of “No discrimination” on account of circumstances means exactly NO discrimination on account of circumstances.
Equality in the court of God is truly equality; no exemptions, no privileges.
I say it once more HOMOSEXUALITY IS IMMORAL…
Continue to fight for the rights of these people and I support you…
But I maintain that the act is detestable and an abomination to the order of God and his intentions for mankind.
Since Dineo wants me out.. I will now leave you guys to discuss this subject among yourselves you birds of a feather.
You will remember my words one day... Its not a warning or threat... its a promise!
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dineo
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by dineo on Jul 3, 2013 20:09:19 GMT 3
Foresight,
Thanks for removing yourself from this thread.
I'm responding to you only because of your parting salvo, and because if there are any members of the Kenyan LGBT community following this thread, I'd like them to read my response. The biggest problem with your brand of analysis (I won’t call it truth or logic) is that it’s based on nothing more than personal beliefs that you demand to shove down others’ throats. And because you have the “backing” of a mythological text and its history as a tool successfully wielded to oppress large swaths of humanity, this somehow (illogically) equates – in your mind – to being “moral”, “truthful” or (I shudder to use the term) “logical”.
Other than widespread ignorance in our country of the meaning of “inalienable rights”, the biggest evil facing the Kenyan LGBT community in my view, is your variety of homophobic Christianity, and that version of intolerant Islam that recently sought to rise in pockets throughout our society but thankfully appears to have been quashed.
As I said before, I come from the Coast. Homosexuality – in and outside the Muslim community – is nothing new to me and is certainly not something I view as an “aberration”. I have gay relatives, gay friends and in-laws, gay neighbors in my home area and have had many gay co-workers, bosses etc; all Kenyan, mostly Black, many Arab and Indian, almost all sworn Muslims (or Christians). They are all law-abiding citizens and registered voters.
Never having lived outside the Coast for extended periods of time other than during my stint at Main Campus, I can’t speak much of the “gay scene” in other Kenyan locales though I must say that maybe as a result of my upbringing in Mombasa, I was able to spot the camouflaged and openly gay folks in Nairobi quite well when I lived there. But what I do know is that there has always been a healthy and respected freedom for gay rights at the Coast. Basically, you’re gay, people know you’re gay and nobody talks about it. You just are who you are and carry on with it. If there ever was a gay capital of the world, it certainly wouldn’t be San Francisco but in my opinion, Lamu (or Unguja, Pemba, Dar, Mombasa, take your pick). That’s how deep the ‘culture’ runs. All these gays by the way, co-exist quite happily with their heterosexual counterparts in the same neighborhoods, offices etc.
And whenever there have been incidents here and there of violence against members of the LGBT community, it has almost always been due to revelations such as those in the recent study alluded to by Jakaswanga in one of his earlier postings on this thread.
Basically, some people don’t want to be ‘called out’. They don’t want it public. They want to keep stuff under wraps. It’s okay to be gay, just as long as you don’t reveal that many of the rest of them are. Why? Because ninety-nine percent of the time, the ridiculous belief systems they’ve aligned themselves with (for whatever incomprehensible reason), disallow them (the aggressors) the space to just be their true gay selves.
Born into Islam myself, I was able to see early on that those who were the most virulently homophobic were usually the most misogynistic/jihadist/orthodox/sociopathic of them all. It was always these, the ones incapable of separating myth from logic, truth from fable, those that needed to wield a level of oppressive ‘moral’ power in order to feel whole. And from what I see with Christianity, those that mirror these same traits are again, the most homophobic, misogynistic, orthodox and jihadist of the lot.
But thankfully, societies evolve, which is precisely what is happening in Kenya today. The gloom of hyper-religiosity during the Dark Ages of the Inquisition was thankfully annihilated in less than 200 years. That’s what the Renaissance was all about. And what we are seeing today in Egypt is exactly the same. As it is for Kenya and the rest of East Africa.
The Google Trends report doesn’t lie. It is the reality on the ground. So, you and your posse will either have to regroup and rewire/reload your ‘mandate’, or you just might as well accept the fact that homosexuality isn’t ‘going anywhere’ in Kenya. It’s not going away, because it is Kenyan.
Also – and this is on a personal note – I think you need to avail yourself of the literature, new thought, and free thought that’s out there today. You’d be surprised at how untenuous and illogical your position sounds (and is) to those who are free from the oppression of entirely manufactured religious dogma and rely on fact in our search for truth. It’s actually embarrassing. There are people who think for themselves; who use their brains for the purposes for which they were engineered by the evolutionary process. People who recognize that their/our brains aren’t meant to be repositories for other people’s non-logic.
Threats don’t work. Nor for that matter statements that we will “remember your words one day”. I know I won’t, because I have already evolved out of that level of unconsciousness.
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Post by omundustrong on Jul 4, 2013 8:07:30 GMT 3
Foresight,Dineo you both have very compelling reasons for the positions you take.In essence you are both against violence to the community in reference,the only rider Foresight is putting is that for every action we do there is a price to pay and it would be hypocritical to assume that there are no consequences,by now we all know that choices have consequences i think this is where the two of you divert.Whereas Foresight believes in God and morality as set out by the bible,Dineo begs to differ.
This forum is richer by the contributions from both sides of the divide.My position on this has already been stated.Whatever we do we shall answer to a higher being, and for my case, God.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jul 4, 2013 15:10:02 GMT 3
Foresight, Thanks for removing yourself from this thread. I'm responding to you only because of your parting salvo, and because if there are any members of the Kenyan LGBT community following this thread, I'd like them to read my response. The biggest problem with your brand of analysis (I won’t call it truth or logic) is that it’s based on nothing more than personal beliefs that you demand to shove down others’ throats. And because you have the “backing” of a mythological text and its history as a tool successfully wielded to oppress large swaths of humanity, this somehow (illogically) equates – in your mind – to being “moral”, “truthful” or (I shudder to use the term) “logical”. Other than widespread ignorance in our country of the meaning of “inalienable rights”, the biggest evil facing the Kenyan LGBT community in my view, is your variety of homophobic Christianity, and that version of intolerant Islam that recently sought to rise in pockets throughout our society but thankfully appears to have been quashed. As I said before, I come from the Coast. Homosexuality – in and outside the Muslim community – is nothing new to me and is certainly not something I view as an “aberration”. I have gay relatives, gay friends and in-laws, gay neighbors in my home area and have had many gay co-workers, bosses etc; all Kenyan, mostly Black, many Arab and Indian, almost all sworn Muslims (or Christians). They are all law-abiding citizens and registered voters. Never having lived outside the Coast for extended periods of time other than during my stint at Main Campus, I can’t speak much of the “gay scene” in other Kenyan locales though I must say that maybe as a result of my upbringing in Mombasa, I was able to spot the camouflaged and openly gay folks in Nairobi quite well when I lived there. But what I do know is that there has always been a healthy and respected freedom for gay rights at the Coast. Basically, you’re gay, people know you’re gay and nobody talks about it. You just are who you are and carry on with it. If there ever was a gay capital of the world, it certainly wouldn’t be San Francisco but in my opinion, Lamu (or Unguja, Pemba, Dar, Mombasa, take your pick). That’s how deep the ‘culture’ runs. All these gays by the way, co-exist quite happily with their heterosexual counterparts in the same neighborhoods, offices etc. And whenever there have been incidents here and there of violence against members of the LGBT community, it has almost always been due to revelations such as those in the recent study alluded to by Jakaswanga in one of his earlier postings on this thread. Basically, some people don’t want to be ‘called out’. They don’t want it public. They want to keep stuff under wraps. It’s okay to be gay, just as long as you don’t reveal that many of the rest of them are. Why? Because ninety-nine percent of the time, the ridiculous belief systems they’ve aligned themselves with (for whatever incomprehensible reason), disallow them (the aggressors) the space to just be their true gay selves. Born into Islam myself, I was able to see early on that those who were the most virulently homophobic were usually the most misogynistic/jihadist/orthodox/sociopathic of them all. It was always these, the ones incapable of separating myth from logic, truth from fable, those that needed to wield a level of oppressive ‘moral’ power in order to feel whole. And from what I see with Christianity, those that mirror these same traits are again, the most homophobic, misogynistic, orthodox and jihadist of the lot. But thankfully, societies evolve, which is precisely what is happening in Kenya today. The gloom of hyper-religiosity during the Dark Ages of the Inquisition was thankfully annihilated in less than 200 years. That’s what the Renaissance was all about. And what we are seeing today in Egypt is exactly the same. As it is for Kenya and the rest of East Africa. The Google Trends report doesn’t lie. It is the reality on the ground. So, you and your posse will either have to regroup and rewire/reload your ‘mandate’, or you just might as well accept the fact that homosexuality isn’t ‘going anywhere’ in Kenya. It’s not going away, because it is Kenyan. Also – and this is on a personal note – I think you need to avail yourself of the literature, new thought, and free thought that’s out there today. You’d be surprised at how untenuous and illogical your position sounds (and is) to those who are free from the oppression of entirely manufactured religious dogma and rely on fact in our search for truth. It’s actually embarrassing. There are people who think for themselves; who use their brains for the purposes for which they were engineered by the evolutionary process. People who recognize that their/our brains aren’t meant to be repositories for other people’s non-logic. Threats don’t work. Nor for that matter statements that we will “remember your words one day”. I know I won’t, because I have already evolved out of that level of unconsciousness. Dineo I have read your contribution, and it seems to me you are outright rude and offensive, especially to Foresight. You are turning into a little bully person, miss. You have expressed a lot of bile towards religion and religious people but have not told us why you have so much bile. Are you by any chance gay? Were you treated roughly because of your homosexuality? Is that where your anger stems from? I really don’t understand your fury but have touched on your core issues. Please deal with them, as your problem is not reliogion but the people who caused you pain. Whatever your reasons, you must desist forthright from shoving your gay attitude toward anyone who do not share your views. Homosexual ( to which I will write a post, later) is a very personal experience to which some people do not wish to support. That is their prerogative, you must leave them alone. Further, please leave the people of the Coast from your demented obsession with their alleged gayness. Lamu is never a capital of homosexuality – you have no idea what you are talking about. You sound very shallow when you make such stupid comments about night life or red district lanes of Coastal towns. How do you know such information unless you are a participant, anyway! Your attack on Islam is simply misconceived. From the little I have read on your views, you know vey little about the wonderful religion of Islam, and I can add you not a Muslim, simply a pretender. I therefore care less about what you or your like thinks about Islam. Please leave the religion of Allah out of your rants.
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dineo
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by dineo on Jul 4, 2013 17:03:40 GMT 3
Wee Sadik ulimbukeni wako haukosi kunishangaza.
Let me guess, you're from Lamu, right? Lol. Kweli mweka jambo moyoni...
Please come with an intellectual argument and not predictable emotive eruptions. What is it? Are you afraid that I'm revealing too much? Isn't that what you alluded to in your initial post on this thread?
Well let me reveal some more.
For those Muslim LGBT Kenyans outside the coast who may be reading this thread and may be tormented and in the closet due to harassment by your kin or community, please know that there is nothing wrong with you and that Islam has a very long (and detailed) history of tolerated and celebrated homosexuality in literature and the visual arts. You can begin studying this history by procuring a copy of the Sawaqub al-Manaquib (please be over the age of 18). You can also mine through the trove of homoerotic Islamic poetry of Abu Nuwas, Al-Mutamid, Ibn Hazm and Ibn Daud.
Additionally, if you're Sunni, in Hanafi, Shafi'i and Maliki legality (or Jafari if you're Shia), none of these schools prescribe death for acts of homosexuality. The penalty is flogging - if you're married to the opposite sex and are found to be committing an adulterous act. Nothing is said if you're single (as far as I know).
More to come.
Sadik, I'm surprised that for someone against the 'gay agenda', you have followed this thread from the very beginning and have even gone so far as commenting twice.
Also Sadik, nowhere in my postings did I make "stupid comments about night life or red district lanes of Coastal towns". Did something in my responses to Foresight jog YOUR memory??
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jul 4, 2013 22:06:35 GMT 3
Dineo
You are wrong to attack the stands of religion on homosexuality. Argument that the anti-gay view is wrong because it is supported by religion is a false one. A fallacy if there ever was one. Yes, it is true that Jews, Christians and Muslims, among others, are against homosexuality. But does that alone make homosexuality necessarily a good thing? Or even the right thing? Something can never be adjudged right or wrong on the basis of who supports or opposes the idea. This argument is escapist.
You have told us you are a mijikenda, I can tell you with certainty, that the concept of homosexuality is so grotesquely alien to your culture. Mjikendsa have three classes of members: The Ancestors, The Living Dead and the Unborn. I cannot explain how homosexuality would have produced you, the Unborn, to reach today Jukwaa and yap about it if indeed it was practiced by your mother/dad.
But, I can explain why there is homosexuality in Africa, today. The twin issues that have been discussed here in jukwaa several times – first dual citizenship and now homosexuality should tell you something about globalisation and its effect on African culture and identity, include the Mjikenda. Africans (or Europeans, Asians, and Americans) will soon be unable to develop their own completely unique culture or ideology. Globalisation has put paid to that. Galloping globalisation implies that we will be breaking traditional barriers and boundaries as travel and communications technology improves.
That is why you are busy yapping about gays, when some mzungu at the Coast, having crossed into our boundaries, screwed your arse, and you think it is the best thing to ever happened to you beside sliced bread.
It is wishful thinking to expect that you will `do homosexuality our own African way' without the influence of the West when we mix so liberally and intermarry, when we are dual, triple and global citizenship, when people like you eat, drink, work and sleep and erotic in western culture and education…"
The more intellectual question you need to ask yourself, rather waste your time on pornography, is what part did nurture play in homosexual tendencies. Why do straight people who spend long time in prison end up being gay? Is it exploitation or survival which leads to convicts to turn to homos?
But, a stupid confused mjikenda takataka kama wewe will not venture on such issue but would instead wade the net for perverted Turkish gay pictures which ignorantly you surmise is Islamic. I want to ignore what I see as misplaced horror. It is laughable and it is grotesquely unnatural to use Arabic name used to hide cheap perversion. I know the glorious religion of Allah is far away from such filth. Shame on you!
But, I'm all for charity - I am minded to help a sister – why don’t I hook you up with a brother who can work on you thoroughly, probably for a night, and remove once and for all your malingering nonsense from which the morning after you will declare straightness in your ways.
I am spoken for – so not me – I don’t like mjikendas, anyway!
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 4, 2013 22:26:23 GMT 3
DineoYou are wrong to attack the stands of religion on homosexuality. Argument that the anti-gay view is wrong because it is supported by religion is a false one. A fallacy if there ever was one. Yes, it is true that Jews, Christians and Muslims, among others, are against homosexuality. But does that alone make homosexuality necessarily a good thing? Or even the right thing? Something can never be adjudged right or wrong on the basis of who supports or opposes the idea. This argument is escapist. You have told us you are a mijikenda, I can tell you with certainty, that the concept of homosexuality is so grotesquely alien to your culture. Mjikendsa have three classes of members: The Ancestors, The Living Dead and the Unborn. I cannot explain how homosexuality would have produced you, the Unborn, to reach today Jukwaa and yap about it if indeed it was practiced by your mother/dad. But, I can explain why there is homosexuality in Africa, today. The twin issues that have been discussed here in jukwaa several times – first dual citizenship and now homosexuality should tell you something about globalisation and its effect on African culture and identity, include the Mjikenda. Africans (or Europeans, Asians, and Americans) will soon be unable to develop their own completely unique culture or ideology. Globalisation has put paid to that. Galloping globalisation implies that we will be breaking traditional barriers and boundaries as travel and communications technology improves. That is why you are busy yapping about gays, when some mzungu at the Coast, having crossed into our boundaries, screwed your arse, and you think it is the best thing to ever happened to you beside sliced bread. It is wishful thinking to expect that you will `do homosexuality our own African way' without the influence of the West when we mix so liberally and intermarry, when we are dual, triple and global citizenship, when people like you eat, drink, work and sleep and erotic in western culture and education…" The more intellectual question you need to ask yourself, rather waste your time on pornography, is what part did nurture play in homosexual tendencies. Why do straight people who spend long time in prison end up being gay? Is it exploitation or survival which leads to convicts to turn to homos? But, a stupid confused mjikenda takataka kama wewe will not venture on such issue but would instead wade the net for perverted Turkish gay pictures which ignorantly you surmise is Islamic. I want to ignore what I see as misplaced horror. It is laughable and it is grotesquely unnatural to use Arabic name used to hide cheap perversion. I know the glorious religion of Allah is far away from such filth. Shame on you! But, I'm all for charity - I am minded to help a sister – why don’t I hook you up with a brother who can work on you thoroughly, probably for a night, and remove once and for all your malingering nonsense from which the morning after you will declare straightness in your ways. I am spoken for – so not me – I don’t like mjikendas, anyway! Eh Sadik, you are not aware of homosexuality ocurring in Afrika in antiquity? you know, just like musturbation? In current Afghanistan there is a tradition of powerful men keeping feminine boys as their 'singers' and entertainers. You know what I mean. In ancient Egypt, a technique of castration was even developed to be used SPECIFICALLY on boys to ANALY serve nobility. This technique was still in use as late as the Ottoman empire days, where black-slaves from Africa were subjected to this 'treatment' before being deployed as eunachs to guard the chastity of the Sultan's harem. But from the abuse you spew above, I guess you are now thinking with your noisy hind quarters and not upstairs!
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Post by OtishOtish on Jul 5, 2013 7:25:37 GMT 3
In ancient Egypt, a technique of castration was even developed to be used SPECIFICALLY on boys to ANALY serve nobility. This technique was still in use as late as the Ottoman empire days, where black-slaves from Africa were subjected to this 'treatment' before being deployed as eunachs to guard the chastity of the Sultan's harem. But from the abuse you spew above, I guess you are now thinking with your noisy hind quarters and not upstairs! Jakaswanga: You are a historian, so you know that great kingdoms, empires, etc. have always been led by people who knew what good dirty stuff they liked and how to enjoy it on a grand scale---from the kings of the Old Testament, scooting by the folks in Babylon, through the great Chinese emperors of the Tang Dynasty and on, to the Ottoman Empire ... What about the empires of religion?, I hear you ask. OK, may be you don't ask, but you should ... Of those, I think only the Roman Catholic Church can count as a truly great empire, and it is really just the Roman Empire by stealth. Plus, today your local priest can indulge in the sort of criminal iniquities that were once the preserve of the popes, who, "naturally" indulged on a more "imperial" scale. (They didn't just suddenly stumble on little boys, powerless women, etc.) But are the "newcomers" getting on with it or what! Equality is an essential component of democratic civilization. Those Ottoman dudes were something else and in some ways ahead of the pack, including the "advanced" Western countries. (No, I don't mean the castration bit.) As far as I know, homosexuality was decriminalized in the Ottoman Empire around the middle of the 19th Century--- keep in mind that Islam was the official religion of that empire---and that is still so in its remnants, i.e. Islamic Turkey. Indeed, there are several majority-Muslim countries, including some in the Middle East, where it is all legal. And in yet others, "no ask, no tell" was plagiarism by Clinton. By the way ... your little unhappy reminder brought this to the fore: We Africans have been getting it in the REDACTED for a very long time. And our fellow Africans have not been entirely innocent (even with the help of a few devout Arab Muslim brothers). Some tamu tamu, a few bits of shiny glass ... And if the West doesn't offer those, why, then, we'll just have to bend Eastwards. Kazi iendelee. A deep dig (via its literature) into the history of what we may loosely call "Arabian area" shows that even for married men, some "devout Muslims", occasional sex with other men has for a very long time been regarded as no more than a tiny peccadillo ... "pecker" "pecca" being the key part of that word. Boys will be boys, etc. As some country folks in Kenya will say, (usually when enjoying what they "should not" be enjoying), "when you eat sukuma-wiki everyday, you should have meat once in a while" ... that seems to have been the philosophy of quite a few good Muslims of the time ... although from where I sit I am not sure about which is the sukuma and which is the meat in the present context ... but to each his/her own, whether it's meat 7 days per week, sukuma 7 days per week, or a random mix. Evidently, even within Islam there are different views, and history tells us that quite a few devout Muslims have been at "it" for quite a while. (On the "other side of the fence", I know, from my personal library, that the cradle of that religion has produced some of the world's most delightful filth.) But, as one might say, that's probably neither here nor there ... Back on track: What some of our learned debaters, religious and otherwise, do not seem to appreciate is that the fundamental issue has nothing to do with religion or one's concept of morality. People will always have different views on those aspects. As an aside: I know that the missionaries who brought us the "light", from a Protestant church that was founded on the stiff end of an English king's schlong, insisted that there was only one blessed position for the "deed". We still remember the missionaries for that bit of "God's light" on respectable positions. (But it would not surprise me to lean that some respectable people have enjoyed---and even procreated in!---very improper positions.) I actually have no issue with people who want to believe that homosexuality, in any form, is immoral, or not proper from a religious viewpoint, or whatever. But I insist that they not impose those views on others. I still enjoy the "nectar of the gods", and in my youth I, like His Excellency UK, had my share of the weed. Plus, when carried away by passion, I have enjoyed the "deed" in what must be very un-religious positions ... of course, not now that I am a happily married man. All of these have been condemned as terrible sins by some people, and, to some extent that is well within their rights. Religion is and should be a matter of faith. That means logic and common sense are secondary, but by no means does it imply that logic and common sense have no place. One observes that those countries who now most strongly insist on the separation of church and state are those which have learned the hard way. So will we, given that in many things we insist on that path. An aside: It's "good" to have "devout Christians" and "devout Muslims" agree, here on Jukwaa. History is littered with what was left over after great battles to decide who had the greater God. The ICC should have been established ages centuries ago, just to "target" so-called Christian and Muslims! (My own study of the Crusades was motivated by a desire to understand how people could be so angry about something that happened so long ago. One finds interesting bits that way, e.g. in the records of cannibalism, Christians ate more Christians than they did Muslims or members of other religions.) But let's take a break from the Great Battles and unite in chasing the willies and the naughty tongues that lick here and suck there ... places that have not been approved. The issue at the base of this thread is this: Never mind that we think people are engaged in "bad activities". Do they have a right, in the law, to protection against, say vicious assaults on their persons? If so, then we should all insist that they enjoy that right, regardless of our personal views on what they do? If not, then can someone provide a list of those who are not to be allowed such rights, on the basis of their private lives? And I should add this: even if homosexuality is illegal, the fact is that suspected---and even convicted---criminals still have certain rights. Let's look back at the start of this thread and try to focus on the real issue that it's supposed to be about. Religion should not be used an excuse to justify the victimization of others. For those howling about Christianity, I remind you of this: His entire mission was centred on the so-called rejects of society. Indeed, he himself was a "reject Jew". The thread started with a commentary on violence (*illegal* and brutal attacks in any country) against LGBT. Who's dicking who, and what one's personal opinions might be on that point, has nothing to do with it. Or did Onyango Oloo delete the part where people were asked to give their supposedly religious views.Digressions: (1) Sadik's comment on colonialism, foreigners, and dual citizenship is interesting. First, the "debate" of nature vs. nurture cannot be settled on the basis of historical evidence that it was for long more apparent in some places than others; otherwise, we might as well rest the case on the basis of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Second, if one chooses to believe that this is a "bad habit" that was imported, then there is a dual path to Africa: one is from the Ottoman Empire to North Africa, and the other is via Arab traders along the eastern coast of Africa. (And, of course, they brought Islam too. And, of course, at the time they were just doing business---that of selling us to the world as farm animals.) That in Kenya, for example, the Coast has always been well-known in this regard is no accident. To my mind, though, this is simply a matter of nature, and any foreign element is limited to the openness about such things. (As I wrote before, there is nothing about what Dineo has written about the Coast that should come as news to anyone in Kenya who is not asleep sucking his/her thumb.) (2) In this regard (and or two others) the whole notion of some "African culture" is noble on the surface but ultimately quite shallow. Over 20 years ago I listed to some fellow, whose name I now forget, talk about "the mining of cultures". His basis was this: every culture has some gold that is worth mining for, and everyone should have a go at it and with as many cultures as possible, but there is plenty of junk to get through in order to get to the gold; and even with your own culture, which of course is the best of all possible cultures, keep only the gold. (Sometimes it's a "reverse gold", such as the Luos deciding to keep six lower teeth.) Another aspect is that culture is dynamic. (Picking on Luos again, these days many get the cut, for different reasons.) Cultures that fail to adapt or enrich themselves through other cultures simply wither and die: at the lowest level of biology, inbreeding is disastrous. I find the "cultural" aspect interesting because it seems to me that we have let go of the "gold" in African cultures and passionately embraced the rubbish (Western material consumption), whence our journey from a largely communal society to a society of individual greed and "having more and the mostest and biggest and ...". (It is no accident that corruption, driven by individual greed and "must have more, always" is one of the nastiest aspects of many African countries (with Kenya as a clear world-leader). And the most "guilty" ones are also the ones who will shout the loudest about preserving this or that, e.g. right after being crowned an "elder" at a mere Sh. 10,000 (chicken, ugali, and Fanta extra costs). At any rate, the notion that their is some great, static "African culture" that is to be preserved by any all means is as great an absurdity as it is a con---a con of the same nature that for decades was perpetrated by African dictators: "We have no need for an alien Western democracy; we must have our own African democracy; and that requires that I be the dictator and rob and fwack you every which way". There is "gold" in African culture. But it is not to be found by getting into people's bedrooms and looking at what they do between the sheets. To my mind, a good place to start with "African culture" is in governance. Even food security is not too bad a place: even in my lifetime many homes used to have granaries, to prepare for the bad times; these days, any surplus goes towards financing a dream borrowed from elsewhere. And the same goes for religions: each one has some gold and a whole bunch of dross. The good miner will go for the gold. The fool is entitled to his dross, but he should keep in mind others might see it for what it is. (BY "religion", I do not mean what Christ or Mohammed or ... said; I mean the various fantasies and fake empires, frequently very oppressive, that some of their "followers" have build around what they actually said and meant.) To be continued on another day ... (3) To Denio: Is that Sawaqub al-Manaquib something or what! Definitely not a shy fellow. (Still not as famous as Abu Nuwas, though.) Listen, I like to know that my dirty stuff has been blessed by the religious authorities, excluding the "Apostles of St. Peter" and their fondness for weak small boys and women not in a position to say NO. The homoerotic art is not my sort of thing, but I'd appreciate names and links for good dirty hetero stuff that is of the same calibre as from those Arabian heroes. (Yes, I know I will burn in hell for enjoying it, lakini!)
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dineo
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Post by dineo on Jul 5, 2013 18:50:44 GMT 3
OtishOtish,Hehehe. That Sawaqub is something. I learnt of its existence from a Pakistani friend some years ago and curious, I went off to research. My husband happened to walk in while the artwork was displayed in full resolution on my screen and the poor man was traumatized for weeks. Regarding your desire for more artwork in line with your proclivities, I must confess to being unable to tender to that request. Just google. Your illuminative post reminded me of a lecture I once attended in which two Zulu audience members almost came to blows when one brought up a point regarding Shaka Zulu’s homosexuality. His argument was that Zulu history and culture had to be understood in its full context etc. The second guy got very heated and accused the first of being a sell-out and all manner of things, the foremost of which was shaming his community in front of a group that included white audience members. Anyway, I went off to investigate and found a book by one Credo Mutwa who is or was apparently the Zulu high sanusi (priest/medicine man). The book was all over the place but contained a long detailed section on Shaka’s homosexuality, insanity, breaches of war protocol (i.e. sanctioning the murder of women, children and the elderly) and much more. If I’m not mistaken (this was over 12 years ago), the name of the book is “Indaba, My Children”. He has written many more books, some on other issues that seemed kinda suspect (like alien reptilians), but that one, I remember. It was originally published in 1964. Zulus and others are still quarreling all over the place about the issue of Shaka's homosexuality so it appears that consensus shall not be reached any time soon. By the way, I sided with the first Zulu guy during the debate. Jakaswanga,This has nothing to do with the topic at hand so forgive me but your point on castration reminded me of something: The brilliant Professor Chapurukha Kusimba's book “Rise and Fall of Swahili States” and the colonial era “Kenya Diary” by Richard Meinertzhagen (the man who killed Koitalel arap Samoei). Also a paper that was written by a Tanzanian colleague regarding Arab slaving activities in Bagamoyo, with an extended section on the mechanics of castrating African boys and men. Professor Kusimba is from Western Kenya and is a member of our Abaluhyia kin. He is also a foremost expert on the history of Swahili states – with an emphasis on the non-Arab origins of Swahili states and culture. Every Kenyan should be familiar with his works. I love the way he weaves personal history into his writing and recall a section in which he talked about Arab slaving activities in Western Kenya and of how he would accompany his grandfather on trips to certain caves in his home area into which members of the Luhyia community escaped and hid when Arabs slavers were around. He is a wonderful, brilliant man and one can find a lot of his work online. Reading this brought to mind Meinertzhagen’s book in which he talked about the large slave market in Kitale (which encompassed the grounds of the present-day Kitale Golf Club), where all manner of horror was meted out to African captives. The wanton rape and brutalization of the women, children and men held there. Which of course, then brought to mind my Tanzanian colleague’s paper detailing the horrors of the castration ‘process’ in Bagamoyo. What was shocking was his assertion that the depravity of Bagamoyo was rivaled only by that of Kitale. The numbers he proposed for deaths due to castration in Bagamoyo were astounding. For every boy or man ‘successfully’ castrated (i.e. for every one that survived and lived), seven died during the process. When you think of the hundreds of thousands or millions (obviously) of African eunuchs dispersed throughout the Arab world since the unofficial commencement of the Arab slave trade is 2 A.D., one has to wonder about just how many millions died, and how this altered the demographics of our continent. If those boys, women and men had lived – especially those that died during castration – what would the demographics of Western Kenya (from where so many slaves were sourced) be today? I mean, what level of depopulation are we talking about? Had none of this happened, the Kenya Census today would have quite different results. Basically, I guess my point is that it’s good to read because its good to be able to connect dots here and there.
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 6, 2013 9:28:23 GMT 3
Perhaps Obama should have done a bit of a sermon, to highlight that even in his own country ---the home of the free, the USA army, of which he is the commander in chief currently, is one of the most 'rabiat' [rabid] homophobic institutions, but is historically making progress. Slow indeed [ don't ask don't tell is considered progress over tell and be lynched by your fellow soldiers I tell you!]. This, just to indicate that the problem is hot everywhere. NB: Personally I would be extremely reluctant to engage in categorisations of 'homosexuality is not African' proceeding therefrom to denounce it. You see I do not even think Christianity --of which blind handles like Foresight base their homophobic value system, would pass the test of being African! But I think Christianity has enough room for divergence to be adapted just about anywhere where humanity lives. --Forgiveness and loving the enemy, adapted to make love not war, is a slogan one never can hear enough of of, given man's propensity to war. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kato_Kisulle killthebilluganda.blogspot.nl/2012/11/david-kato.htmlDavid Kato spoke to the BBC in 2010. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12295718Continue reading the main story Your culture, Otishotish!
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 6, 2013 9:44:19 GMT 3
There is "gold" in African culture. But it is not to be found by getting into people's bedrooms and looking at what they do between the sheets. My friend, I and some investors are working on lauching a porno satelite to compete those Naija dinner table dialogues they watch all over Africa. We plan to call it: inside the African bedroom! and we think there is money in it! And here you are pouring cold water on the idea! Jesus man! You think kenyans wont pay to watch Uhuru and Ruto swapping, and not just wives!?
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Post by OtishOtish on Jul 6, 2013 17:16:29 GMT 3
OtishOtish,Hehehe. That Sawaqub is something. I learnt of its existence from a Pakistani friend some years ago and curious, I went off to research. My husband happened to walk in while the artwork was displayed in full resolution on my screen and the poor man was traumatized for weeks. See my comments on getting past the rubbish and mining for the gold. There is definitely no shortage of stuff to be found through Google. But as a mature, serious, and respectable (and respected) family man, I require smut that is of high quality and good taste. That is not so easy to find, and I welcome any guidance from all.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jul 6, 2013 17:34:38 GMT 3
NB: Personally I would be extremely reluctant to engage in categorisations of 'homosexuality is not African' proceeding therefrom to denounce it. You see I do not even think Christianity --of which blind handles like Foresight base their homophobic value system, would pass the test of being African! Point. I think that most who shout about "African culture" would be hard-pressed to say how it is reflected in the daily lives. Indeed, it does. Christ himself welcomed them all---thieves, prostitutes, etc. In light of his teachings, those who profess to be Christians should ask themselves this: what would have made of the treatment of homosexuals that started this thread, and what would he have made of the use of his name to support such treatment? To my mind, true religion is ultimately reflected in how we view and treat our fellow human beings and in our relationship with God; it is much more than going once a week to the church or mosque or whatever---anything goes during the rest the week---and being able to quote, randomly and selectively, parts of this or that Good Book.
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Post by amadain on Jul 13, 2013 16:46:26 GMT 3
If anyone is interested, "Call me Kuchu" is available to watch online. It's a fly on the wall documentary about the Ugandan LGBT community and David Kato is the main star. He was murdered before filming was completed. I'll try to embed it below. ....ok it won't allow me to embed so here is the direct link: viooz.co/movies/18786-call-me-kuchu-2012.html
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2013 23:06:11 GMT 3
If anyone is interested, "Call me Kuchu" is available to watch online. It's a fly on the wall documentary about the Ugandan LGBT community and David Kato is the main star. He was murdered before filming was completed. I'll try to embed it below. ....ok it won't allow me to embed so here is the direct link: viooz.co/movies/18786-call-me-kuchu-2012.htmlthanks amadin
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Post by OtishOtish on Jul 14, 2013 7:57:59 GMT 3
This thread reminded me of a book I last read several years ago, so I dug it up. I referred it earlier, so, first, a correction: My reference above---to those who want to show religious goodness to other people to such an extent that they will burn them at the stake, behead them, etc.---is actually due to Gogol.
Nicholas Berdyaev, in a Christian perspective, The Destiny of Man (1937):
"The problem of sexual and erotic morality is one of the most profound, difficult and metaphysical problem of ethics. Sexual morality is particularly dominated by convention. The most intimate aspect of personality, which simply cannot be judged from the outside and of which the person is shy of speaking to anyone at all, is the most organized and regulated socially. This is due to the fact that sexual life results in the birth of children, the continuation of the human race. Something intimately personal and absolutely non-social has social consequences. This is why sex life provides the field for particularly tragic conflicts between the individual and society destinies. In the life of the community what is personal and intimate becomes socially regulated, and the individual has to answer to society for feelings and actions which have no reference to it and have a social bearing only in their consequences. The result is that no other sphere of life is so vitiated by hypocrisy and cowardice. In their judgments about sex, people are terrorized by society and are particularly cowardly and insincere. But judgments and valuations of pure ethics must be free from the power of social conventions, i.e. as a matter of principle, ethics must be individual and not social.
The first thing to be recognized is that for the herd-man, sexual life exists merely as a physiological and social fact ... But the herd-mind is absolutely blind to the fact of erotic love."
Berdyaev's writings in these matters were about consensual adult sex between men and women, and the fact that this might have consequences (the production of children) that might affect the rest of society. I have found it interesting and useful to look at his writings in the light of consensual, adult homosexual relationships, where there is not the slightest danger of such "social consequences". I have sometimes asked the "anti" people this question: What exactly is the problem with two adult males or two adult females, if they so wish and mutually agree, doing whatever they choose in the privacy and comfort of their bedrooms? I have yet to get much of an answer.
Continuing to quote ...
"Love as such lies outside the social sphere and has no relation whatsoever to the community. It is absolutely individual and wholly connected with personality. It is between two persons, and any third is an intruder. The sexual instinct is connected with the life of the genus and therefore comes to the notice of the herd-mind, which regulates its social and generic consequences. But love has nothing to do with the species and the community and is usually not mentioned in traditional systems of ethics, which deal only with the problems of family and marriage. ... It is remarkable that Christian writers and Fathers of the Church failed to observe the phenomenon of love and said nothing interesting about its meaning ... The treatise of St. Augstine is so bourgeois and conventional in spirit that it scarcely bears reading. In truth, St. Augustine's and other theologians treatises on sex and marriage are concerned with regulating the generic life and strongly reminds one of treatises on cattle breeding. Personal love and personal identity are completely ignored by those writers. Not one of them mentions the fact of love, which is utterly different from both the physiological gratification of the sexual instinct and the social organization of the generic family life. ... There arises a great tragedy in the Christian world."
Gogol on Christian "Goodness" (1846): "It is sad not to see any good in goodness.
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dineo
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Post by dineo on Jul 16, 2013 20:12:06 GMT 3
What follows is a very touching mini documentary produced by the UK's Guardian newspaper about Melvin, a young Kenyan orphan and sex worker raising his 8 yr old sister.
It also features a host of personalities from the Kenyan medical, religious and LGBT worlds. I shuddered when I heard Melvin say how some policemen rape male sex workers in Mombasa. Also, the statistic proffered by Dennis Nzioka - Communications Officer at Gay Kenya - that 10,000 Kenyan women contract the HIV virus yearly due to their male partners engaging in unprotected sex with other men. My apologies if this video has previously been posted on Jukwaa.
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