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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jun 27, 2013 10:15:54 GMT 3
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dineo
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by dineo on Jun 27, 2013 17:14:18 GMT 3
First, interestingly enough (but not surprisingly), according to both recent Google Trends and Pew Research reports, KENYA ranks first in the world for certain searches for online gay porn (by volume), ahead of even Pakistan and Nigeria which are also in the top five. According to this article: You can follow the links in the article and they will lead you to the actual Google Report etc. It goes without saying that the most vehement in the anti-homosexual crew are usually the biggest closeted homosexuals themselves. Why is it that all matters of sex and sexuality in Kenya are so twisted and dysfunctional?? Obviously, the male sex workers are offering services to largely AFRICAN men who require those services because they are gay. it would be interesting to see what would happen if all Kenyan male sex workers died or disappeared. I'm sure the incidents of men raping men in Kenya would skyrocket, again because of the fact that there are probably more closeted gay men in Kenya than there are 'out' male sex workers or 'out' regular gay men. Also, good luck to the idiots that are out to "clean" Mombasa of gays and male sex workers. They might want to cruise by our many mosques and start there because that is where they will find most of the "culprits". And then they should move on to Lamu where they'll have a field day. |
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jun 27, 2013 18:13:33 GMT 3
First, interestingly enough (but not surprisingly), according to both recent Google Trends and Pew Research reports, KENYA ranks first in the world for certain searches for online gay porn (by volume), ahead of even Pakistan and Nigeria which are also in the top five. According to this article: You can follow the links in the article and they will lead you to the actual Google Report etc. It goes without saying that the most vehement in the anti-homosexual crew are usually the biggest closeted homosexuals themselves. Why is it that all matters of sex and sexuality in Kenya are so twisted and dysfunctional?? Obviously, the male sex workers are offering services to largely AFRICAN men who require those services because they are gay. it would be interesting to see what would happen if all Kenyan male sex workers died or disappeared. I'm sure the incidents of men raping men in Kenya would skyrocket, again because of the fact that there are probably more closeted gay men in Kenya than there are 'out' male sex workers or 'out' regular gay men. Also, good luck to the idiots that are out to "clean" Mombasa of gays and male sex workers. They might want to cruise by our many mosques and start there because that is where they will find most of the "culprits". And then they should move on to Lamu where they'll have a field day. Why would one hate their people or their religion that much to air their dirty linen in public. Salalaa |
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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 27, 2013 18:27:46 GMT 3
Attention Kathure-Kebaara,
I was going to post this on the thread where you are celebrating the landmark ruling at the United States Supreme Court [or is it court of appeal?]. Then I saw this new thread, and thought there is political responsibility that must be borne by the likes of William Ruto, as you -quote- posted here at a different thread.
Did he really say 'homosexuals come from the same school as dogs?'
That is an extraordinary thing for a man with a masters grade in the sciences from Chiromo to say. It reports a mental pathology, out of reach by ratio and logic. But he is in 'good' pan-afric company. Mugabe and Museveni have used equivalent if not more hateful qualifications!
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dineo
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by dineo on Jun 27, 2013 19:27:04 GMT 3
Sadik, I suppose according to your logic, speaking the truth – which I have done – is a national and spiritual crime? What would you rather have me do? Lie? So that what? We can continue pretending that Kenyan men and mosques in particular are bastions of ‘morality’? And what definition of morality are we using anyway? I come from the Coast and unless I have been blind all my life or looking in another direction, there is no way I could have failed to see the rampant homosexuality, transgenderism, cross-dressing, overt male cat-calling towards other males etc all over the place. But unlike many, I have no problem with it nor for that matter do I have a problem with whom one chooses for a sexual partner. What I detest is religious two-facedness and ostensibly straight men who are obviously in the closet - men who engage in sex with other men on the sly and then act violently towards them or seek to enact laws that prevent the LGBT community from living their lives as freely as they should. At this point in time, what humanity should be doing is truthfully identifying the problems that beset us and finding mechanisms to deal with reality instead of ensuring the continuity of dysfunction by sweeping these issues under the rug. Have you ever attended Maulid in Lamu? If so, what did you see? Have you ever walked the streets of Lamu (especially) or Mombasa at day or night? What did you see? Have you ever heard of or seen the many pedophiles running madrasas all over the country? Here is an article from The Star, dated June 14, 2011. There is a lot in this article that I don't agree with (though I commend Ustadh Hobeni for his advise to parents), but I am posting it here to show that pedophilia - especially that of men on boys - is obviously a problem in Mombasa mosques. Additionally, it proves that there are obviously gay religious leaders in Islamic circles in Kenya. |
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 27, 2013 19:29:54 GMT 3
That is an extraordinary thing for a man with a masters grade in the sciences from Chiromo to say. It reports a mental pathology, out of reach by ratio and logic. But he is in 'good' pan-afric company. Mugabe and Museveni have used equivalent if not more hateful qualifications! He didn't just say it in some small remark on the street; he said it during the presidential debates. According to Ruto, it's in the Bible, Kenya is a God-fearing nation, so there. Anyways ... To my mind, a bigger issue is why it did not cause an uproar among the public as a whole. That brings us to the sad fact that being gay in Africa is a very tough place to be and that in Africa and among Africans homophobia is generally considered a "respectable" attitude. In Africa you will find people complaining bitterly about tribalism and its ill effects. Outside Africa you will find Africans complaining bitterly about racism and its ill effects. But at the very same time some of the same people will cheerfully reveal the vilest attitudes against homosexuals! |
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 27, 2013 19:36:33 GMT 3
Sadik, I suppose according to your logic, speaking the truth – which I have done – is a national and spiritual crime? What would you rather have me do? Lie? So that what? We can continue pretending that Kenyan men and mosques in particular are bastions of ‘morality’? And what definition of morality are we using anyway? I come from the Coast and unless I have been blind all my life or looking in another direction, there is no way I could have failed to see the rampant homosexuality, transgenderism, cross-dressing, overt male cat-calling towards other males etc all over the place. Dineo: You did not write anything that any Kenyan who is at least moderately awake does not know, but these truths need to come out in the open. Ignore the attempts to shut you up through hints of betrayal that are supposed to induce guilt. And your point about two-faced "religious" types is very appropriate: the Catholic church is still reeling from the revelations that "celibate" people, men of the cloth and "Apostles to St. Peter", have been very busy doing very nasty things to small boys. |
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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 27, 2013 19:45:55 GMT 3
Sadik, I come from the Coast and unless I have been blind all my life or looking in another direction, there is no way I could have failed to see the rampant homosexuality, transgenderism, cross-dressing, overt male cat-calling towards other males etc all over the place. But unlike many, I have no problem with it nor for that matter do I have a problem with whom one chooses for a sexual partner. What I detest is religious two-facedness and ostensibly straight men who are obviously in the closet - men who engage in sex with other men on the sly and then act violently towards them or seek to enact laws that prevent the LGBT community from living their lives as freely as they should. Dineo, I like the sanity you bring to this issue. I come from Nyanza, and you remember public outcry forced a report to be withdrawn recently. The report indicated the prevalence of gay eroticism in Nyanza as a national high! It was a festival of hypocrisy! ---of course those in the know, know they are one or two religious orders in the region where homosexuality is practiced in the name of the Lord. But obviously there is an attempt to mobilise cultural opinion, legal opinion and practice, to condemn and punish this particular form of human behaviour. I think even civil society may fear taking up the issue, because they could be 'stimatised' as gay. Museveni once said, of hetero activists fighting for the rights of gays... 'these people want to promote this thing, because they are the same!' Madness! |
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dineo
Junior Member
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Post by dineo on Jun 27, 2013 21:09:39 GMT 3
Thank you OtishOtish and Jakaswanga.
Jakaswanga,
You said, about Ruto: "That is an extraordinary thing for a man with a masters grade in the sciences from Chiromo to say. It reports a mental pathology, out of reach by ratio and logic."
It really beggars belief that he would say that, and that is the crux of the matter, the way I see it. The absence of LOGIC when it comes to biological/scientific matters (in this case, one's sexuality). The three Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) - as practiced by many (if not most) of their adherents today (especially in Africa), operate outside the realm of logic vis a vis the separation of church (personal religious beliefs) and state (individual inaliable rights).
Ruto, and many of our fellow wananchi, have the part of their brain that should stand and operate on reason and logic alone, deeply intertwined with and overpowered by the irrationality of their belief systems. Belief systems in name alone by the way, since it is quite obvious that there exist no 'real' or 'true' Christians or Muslims operating in that country, otherwise it would be called Heaven and not Kenya...
The following Youtube video appears in the link OO posted at the start of this thread. I watched it and completely identified with the gay man "Amina" who reminded me of many young men - gay and straight - I knew, know, am related to, grew up with, worked with, was friends with, am friends with etc, in Mombasa all my life. There is nothing 'strange' about him. He is very normal to me and I am sure, to anybody on this board who grew up at the Coast and is honest. Nimepatwa na huzuni kumwona anavyoteseka but I'm glad that he states clearly that "mimi ni gay". He is very sure about himself. I wish the same could be said for the idiot attempted to kill his friend "Sakina" after procuring sexual favours from him.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 28, 2013 5:10:58 GMT 3
The three Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) - as practiced by many (if not most) of their adherents today (especially in Africa), operate outside the realm of logic vis a vis the separation of church (personal religious beliefs) and state (individual inaliable rights). One of the most astonishing things about Ruto's bit was his inability, in his Bible-thumping, to even project an understanding of the need for that separation. It reminded me of those "god-fearing" types in the American south who would quote the Bible to "prove" that black people were created to be slaves. Looking at the history of those "three great religions"---and I was brought up in one of them (Christianity)---one is astonished that we have learned so little from the history of those who gave us these. Some random thoughts ... * It's seems hard to beat Christianity's nastiness and crimes against humanity, all in the name of religion. The inquisitions, the Crusades, ... even colonialism was under the guise of spreading the "word of God" to the benighted. As an aside, I was brought up as an Anglican, which, as far as I can tell, is the church that the majority of Kenyan Christians belong to. It is an offshoot of the Christian church that came about because the head of the church (the then Pope) would not let a head of state (Henry VII) freely enjoy his extra-curricular ding-dong. Henry solved the state-church separation problem quite neatly: there would be a new church, and its head (Henry) would be the head (Henry again) of state, who could then enjoy whatever ding-dong he chose. And he proceeded to do just that---Wife I, Wife II, ... Wife VI. One has to admit that it was a bit cheeky of the Pope to deny him those "rights" in a period when the popes were leading their flock in terms of booze& drugs, assorted debauchery, political murders, etc. Those popes would have regarded Berlusconi's bunga-bunga as childish, boy-scout stuff. But, equally, one has to admit that with his new freedom the King/Head-of-Church did not set good standards, with a procedure of divorce that consisted of an axe or a sword to the neck of the wife, perhaps preceded by a short and miserable imprisonment ... But here we are: The Church of England. * I cannot think of a clash of religions that has shaped the history of the world to the extent that the Christian-Islam clash has. The Crusades are a memorable highlight, and of these perhaps the 4th is the most "colourful": upon reaching Constantinople, and realizing they would not make it to the "Holy Land" and rescue the "Holy Sepulchre" from the "heathen Muslims hordes", the Crusaders, supported by the might of several states, decided to make the most of where they were. I just took a look at Wikipedia's entry on the matter. It doesn't even begin to tell half the story---e.g. it omits mention of the nastiest and verified instances of the most astonishing forms of cannibalism and other nastiness---but it does give some idea of the event that was carried out in the name of God: "Speros Vryonis in Byzantium and Europe gives a vivid account of the sack:
The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a wh*ore who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople. The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians. The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became an easy prey to the Turks. The Fourth Crusade and the crusading movement generally thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intentionAll presumably concluded with a "Praise the Lord!" (and in these days there is a similar and familiar cry from elsewhere)... even though---never mind the original target of "heathen Muslim hordes" in control of "the Holy Land"---the Greek Church was in fact another Christian Church, but, of course, a different and lesser church! Praise the Lord. * It seems to me that since the second half of the 20th century, a tiny minority of Muslims have been working hard to catch up with Christianity in the general business of religion-inspired nastiness and mayhem, its history of failing to separate church and state, and the consequences of what follows from that. And that's before we get to straightforward terrorism, of which too the Christians have a very long lead. * Judaism: I have a weak point for this religion. As a little "god-fearing" type, I was very fond of the Old Testament. There, I could freely enjoy tales of rape, murder, adultery, booze and drugs, mindless wars, etc. And through it all, the grown-ups were very impressed with my devotion to The Good Book, and urged me to keep at it. King Solomon summed it up rather nicely in Ecclesiastes, one of the deepest books in the Old Testament: "Life sucks, has always sucked, and will always suck. So the best thing you can do is enjoy your food and booze & drugs, enjoy ding-dong with the person you have been given, and, above all, don't read too much". On the last, he makes an excellent point: "there is no end to the number of scribblers who will keep writing books, and you surely can't read all of them." (For the hurry-hurry digital age, a different poet summed it thus: "don't worry, be happy".) But the Song of Songs is much better: there, the king is much hapier and takes some of his own advice, is in spectaluar form, and rarely has such fine poetry been written in praise of [REDACTED]. In The Good Book, the ancient city of Sodom established a "reputation" that survives to this very day, but it's not the most exemplary stuff. The Good Book---and everyone has a Good Book---is what it is. But Ruto, like the "god-fearing" slave-traders who have chapter and verse to prove that the black man is forever doomed, has no problem getting on the national stage and having a shite on the heads of people who have exactly the same rights as others to a decent life. In these matters, if we look through history, there are at least two things we can learn: (1) The failure to separate church and state carries enormous dangers. Those who have concluded that it is a necessity have arrived at that conclusion the hard way. We can, and should try to learn, from others. (2) Likewise, there are numerous and enormous dangers in failing to separate one's private/personal views and one's functions as a leader (or even minion) in the public life. Homosexuality is simply a fact of life and nature. The sooner we accept that, the better off we all will be. History tells us that should be very wary of the "god-fearing" types and especially those who have state power behind them. We should also be wary of the dim-witted types amongst us. There are few records in history to that show people getting their rights "just like that"; there are always those who insist on even the most avoidable and the most pointless of fights. Kenyan/African LGBT must continue to insist on their rights, and all upright people must support them. |
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Post by foresight on Jun 28, 2013 5:20:04 GMT 3
Bwana Oloo..
I will argue this matter as a Christian.
My position hardly negates the need of the Christian to recognize the character and qualities of homosexuals.
Unfortunately though for “the homosexuals” I can distinguish between good traits and wrong behavior without allowing one to nullify the other.
In my distinction and position I can value the qualities of my gay friends and loved ones, all the while maintaining and expressing a clear position on homosexuality itself.
I vehemently refuse to subscribe to the notion that if a homosexual’s general character is good, his sexuality is made insignificant by his goodness, and as such it should bypasses what Scripture and common sense teach us.
Good people can do bad things, but bad things will not be reclassified just because of the goodness of the people who do them.
So I will not argue that homosexuals are NOT DIFFERENT. [That’s rather obvious] I will also not challenge that difference because it is not my wish to enter into a type of a "which came first Chicken or the egg" debate.
Let me reiterate forcefully that Sexual behavior from a biblical perspective [DIFFERENT or NOT] is anything but insignificant.
The truth is this, you cannot be a practicing homosexual, who is unwilling to give up that practice and be a true Christian…
It just cannot happen! A believer in Jesus Christ IS a NEW Creation undergoing Metamorphosis…
If you read the account of creation in the book of Genesis you will notice that when God looked on all He had made, including man and woman in their naked sexuality, He applauded.
Even worse NOW is going ahead and getting married to the same sex and being comfortable and living without conviction as Christians.
Did you know that HOMOSEXUALITY totally pours scorn on the symbolic aspect of Christian marriage?
If you study scripture carefully you will see how beautifully and symbolically consummation i.e. The completion of marriage by sexual intercourse is presented.
In Scripture, sexual union is afforded the highest honor, when it is used as a “type” (or example) of God’s intimate, passionate commitment to His people (Isa. 54:5–6, Hos. 2:19–20; Eph. 5:22–33).
What most people fail to understand is the symbolic nature of sexuality within the Christian faith.
Jesus Christ is the BRIDGEGROOM AND THE CHURCH THE BRIDE.
O’ GOD STOP THIS HOMOSEXUALITY IN CHURCHES O’ LORD PLEASE DO!
Once again I will repeat that homosexuality, is never mentioned in Scripture except in a negative sense; and as a union between two of the same gender, it cannot embody the complementary mystery that a male/female union affords (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:26–27; 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10).
Please get that!
It is for precisely that reason [as a Christian] I view sex as something to be greatly celebrated and fiercely protected.
If people do not want to take guidelines surrounding sexuality literally and seriously there is nothing I can do.
But iT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY to warn that Scripture relates in ghastly detail the confusion that follows when people abandon those guidelines.
It is also my responsibility to promote those guidelines prayerfully, trusting God to help me influence my generation,friends, neighbors and family. Maybe not here at Jukwaa, but I will take my chances.
Why?
So that they are spared the heartache that sexual confusion portends in years to come.
I am not the one legislating laws in Kenya and I am very aware that nations all over the world are now accepting homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle even legalizing same-sex marriages, but listen, as a Christian I still believe in the biblical ordained order as the foundation of society and community.
Homosexuality like a dangerous virus is now out to destabilize Gods order AND as such it cannot be encouraged among families as an alternative lifestyle, especially in churches.
In short, there is nothing LIKE HOMOSEXUAL CHRISTIANS...
And I will keep shouting it again and again that same-sex parental partnerships cannot offer the benefit to children that male-female parental partnerships can.
Sometimes I wonder whether those who are encouraging or are considering same sex marriage are aware that they are weakening mankind and destabilizing Gods intent and creation mandate?
Don't they know that this societal invasion by the gay culture is now pointing towards a significant weakening effect of families?
Now that homosexuals are even marrying in CHURCHES, It is affecting heterosexual families so negatively.
Just because they don’t speak about doesn’t mean they are not worried.
The claim that legalizing gay marriage will domesticate homosexual men has not proven true. On the contrary, homosexual couples are changing marriage more than marriage is changing them.
It’s becoming a circus of immorality praying right before our eyes.
And… we Christians must just keep quiet eh? And accept it eh?
One has to be in absolute denial if they cannot see the benefits to child rearing that a heterosexual Christian couple with the inherent Christian v perspectives, values and strengths bring to marriage in contrast to the sameness of a homosexual couple.
I know what some of people are already thinking, that marriage already is in a sorry condition and point to the high divorce rate and outrageous levels of domestic violence and dysfunction, but this argument indicates the need to REFORM, not REDIFINE the institution…
When my house is messy, do I reasonably go and add clutter?
Adding more clutter to an already messy house is hardly the solution my friend.
I am urging my Christian brothers to pray that this HOMOSEXUAL SPIRIT will be stopped by the Spirit of God from permeating churches as it has already done in other human platforms.
I am advocating strongly not only for the continued adoption of the biblically approved definition of marriage, but fierce and fearless enforcement as well.
It is here that I unfortunately and sternly part company with those who minimize the significance of homosexuality in the church.
And my reasons are as follows….
First, the Bible, which is my authority for life and conduct, describes incest, adultery, bestiality, fornication, prostitution, and homosexuality in negative, prohibitive terms.
I affirm, therefore, that there is such a thing as sexual sin, which carries specific and unique consequences (1 Cor. 6:18), and that homosexuality is one of many such sins.
Secondly, contrary to assertions that homosexuality among Christians is just a personal or secondary matter, involvement in unrepentant, ongoing sexual sin is in fact one of the few reasons scripture suggests excommunicating a church member who refuses to give up such immorality. Scripture even suggest that we distance ourselves from him or her. (1 Cor. 5:1–5, 11–13).
Why should I, on my watch consider it insignificant If the word of God commands that I withdraw from a believer who is involved in such sin.
I will not can consider it insignificant.
Finally, the enforcement of these standards is necessary for the purity and health of the church at large (1 Cor. 5: 6).
I recognize this as a necessity that is to me more critical than idea of “getting along.” And let’s not talk about it in CHURCH.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Jun 28, 2013 6:40:45 GMT 3
That is an extraordinary thing for a man with a masters grade in the sciences from Chiromo to say. It reports a mental pathology, out of reach by ratio and logic. But he is in 'good' pan-afric company. Mugabe and Museveni have used equivalent if not more hateful qualifications! He didn't just say it in some small remark on the street; he said it during the presidential debates. According to Ruto, it's in the Bible, Kenya is a God-fearing nation, so there. Anyways ... To my mind, a bigger issue is why it did not cause an uproar among the public as a whole. That brings us to the sad fact that being gay in Africa is a very tough place to be and that in Africa and among Africans homophobia is generally considered a "respectable" attitude. In Africa you will find people complaining bitterly about tribalism and its ill effects. Outside Africa you will find Africans complaining bitterly about racism and its ill effects. But at the very same time some of the same people will cheerfully reveal the vilest attitudes against homosexuals! You are comparing apples and oranges my friend. Whereas homosexuality is an issue of choice, race and tribe are not. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ |
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 28, 2013 6:45:38 GMT 3
Fair enough, as far as it goes. But what about those who don't care for the Bible or Christianity? And, by the way, that's a nice chunk of humanity.
LGBT people are not fighting to be allowed into the Christian church. They are fighting for the right to live the same sort of decent, safe, etc. life that everyone is entitled to. Christianity is no doubt a very fine religion, but sadly or something, not everyone cares for it. Should it nevetherless be imposed on them? Perhaps the Crusaders' history ans the rest of "Christian history" might give us an answer. Me myself personally, I say believe whatever you want: unlike ice-cream, there can only be one One God, not different flavours.
Among the deepest and most insightful of propnents of the the Christian life I have ever read is the Russian philospopher Nicholas Berdyaev. In one of his books---"The Destiny of Man", I believe---he says that it's sad to see so little good in Goodness. By that he was referring to the fact that the very people who shout the loudest about the Good & Clean Christian life are the very same ones who also subject their fellow humans to the worst of life. And all in the name of a Good & Clean Christian life. History indicates that he has a point, which, of course, applies to mos forms of organized religion.
So, homosexuality is bad? But what say you about the fact that the very same priests who preach that stuff during the day are at night busy doing very nasty things to defenceless little boys? I suppose it's all OK, because they later go to Confession ...
The fundamental issue here actually should have nothing to do with religion, and it is unfortunate that some wish to see it that way. People all have their different religous beliefs---some of which might have no issues with being LGBT---and they must not have one particular set of beliefs forced down their throats or used as a basis to victimize them. As I stated above, many have had to learn the hard way about the need to separate church and state. That we got their religion---it was actually forced down our throats in the process of stealing from us---does not oblige us to make the same mistakes.
It goes without saying that the particular religion you and I have chosen is, of course, the Best & Truest---why else would we have chosen it?---but let's humour those benighted folks who think that they too have found a different Best & Truest. I think we can do that of we just leave religion out of normal affairs of a human's rights.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 28, 2013 7:02:11 GMT 3
He didn't just say it in some small remark on the street; he said it during the presidential debates. According to Ruto, it's in the Bible, Kenya is a God-fearing nation, so there. Anyways ... To my mind, a bigger issue is why it did not cause an uproar among the public as a whole. That brings us to the sad fact that being gay in Africa is a very tough place to be and that in Africa and among Africans homophobia is generally considered a "respectable" attitude. In Africa you will find people complaining bitterly about tribalism and its ill effects. Outside Africa you will find Africans complaining bitterly about racism and its ill effects. But at the very same time some of the same people will cheerfully reveal the vilest attitudes against homosexuals! You are comparing apples and oranges my friend. Whereas homosexuality is an issue of choice, race and tribe are not. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Indeed. Yours reminds me of a True Fact that was once stated by a Clever American: "Poor people shouldn't complain about poverty. They should just go out and get a better job." |
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Post by foresight on Jun 28, 2013 7:54:02 GMT 3
OtishOtish, it does not escape my attention that you argue a secular perspective. Many of the things which you point out are matters that reflect your civility and candour with regards to fellow human beings...
I respect that…
remember I stated that mine was a Christian observation influenced by biblical values that determine human sexuality. Even if one does not subscribe to christianity... surely common sense ought to kick in..
You said that “LGBT people are not fighting to be allowed into the Christian church. They are fighting for the right to live the same sort of decent, safe, etc. life that everyone is entitled to”
…. and I agree… all I am saying is this…
“I will not placate a spreading immoral behavior by confusing it with something that it’s not or by sugar coating it”
Homosexuals just like prostitutes are justified to fight for their rights all they want... but I will not pass them as acceptable practices. Yes to human rights and all that... but NO TO IMMORALITY, iniquity and plain wickedness.
Sir those who have followed gay debates know that three major features that gay support groups and lobby advance are -
1] Innateness: by this Homosexuals claim that their condition is inborn and unchangeable; therefore, it is normal and God ordained.
2] Insignificance: by this homosexuals mean that they are decent, respectable citizens who happen to be gay; therefore, their sexual behavior is insignificant or unimportant.
3] Intolerance: with this view homosexuals and their sidekicks paint the authentic Christian view on homosexuality [which they term traditional] as ignorant and promote anti-gay sentiment, which gives birth to prejudice and violence; therefore, it is unacceptable.
These arguments are often presented as though they have been proven or are self-evidently true, which makes anyone who challenges them homophobic and intolerant and many Christians shy away from discussing the subject for these reasons alone.
But I am the type of a Christian who is willing to be controversial for the sake of the truth. I have a divine mandate which I received from Christ not just to evangelize the world (Matt. 28:16–20), but to influence it as well (Matt. 5:13–16).
You probably know that Jesus preached the gospel, but also made public statements on social issues such as racism and sexism (John 4:4–11), religious hypocrisy (Matt. 6:1–2, 5–6), and the abuse of power (Matt. 20:25–26).
The apostle Paul instructed the Ephesians not only to separate themselves from immorality but to reprove it openly (Eph. 5:11).
There are some things which others may want to include in the bible which was not the original intent of the creator. Have you not read In Matt 19:8 where Jesus says…
"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning”?
The real, underlining problem is not about the biblical law and the reasons for having strict regulations; the real problem, at the core of it all, is the problem of our hardness of heart.
The hardness of the heart of people who have all the power, they use their power to strip the goodness out of God's word and creation.
"From the beginning it was not so," says Jesus. From the beginning we were whole.
A broken promise, including the broken promises of marriage, was a serious matter. It is about the breakdown of wholeness. This break down of relationships is at the heart of this issue of homosexuality, at the very core.
Any Christian worth his/her salt is required to engage the culture by clearly articulating biblical positions on controversial issues that are relevant to our contemporary society. Sexual issues are not exempt from this mandate.
To refuse this challenge is to refuse our calling to be both salt and light to those who are perishing.
Your western culture and indeed, the world at large is showing unprecedented opposition to any engagement on homosexuality from a true biblical perspective, whether in public forums, in academic circles, or even in our own churches and homes.
In the interest of being better equipped to meet this challenge, I refuse to join the flow…
Just because someone claims that some individuals are “born gay” may settle the issue for some but not for me.
This argument has become like a “feel good pill “ for it kind of settles the issue for many simply because it makes people feel better about their sexual orientation, or the sexual orientation of someone they care about.
Family members of gay people find comfort because the blame is shifted to “a genetic” which exonerates the culprit from his/her responsibility.
“This is not MY fault; this is not YOUR fault.” Kinda thing! Gays feel relieved with this argument because it “makes them feel good about themselves,” and “less [like] a sinner,”
Small wonder then, that this notion of unchangeable homosexuality tendency is a pillar of gay movement kingpins.
If homosexuality is inborn, then it should be viewed like race or gender, putting homosexuals in the same minority status as African Americans, or women, an oppressed yet determined class struggling for dignity and fair treatment.
Nonsense...
Conversely it portrays Christians like me as being in the same oppressive class as those who opposed civil rights.I tell you the truth that is the devils winning strategy from the pit of hell!
So if homosexuality is innate, gay supporters say, it is unchangeable, and, therefore, God must have created it.
The “born gay” argument gains its strength from the belief that what we are is what we were intended to be but experience tells us otherwise; birth defects and early inclinations toward antisocial behavior are not the work of a loving Creator.
So we are imperfect from birth; and therefore we are imperfect for life. This testifies to the fact that our human natures are fallen (i.e., sinful), a foundational concept in Christianity. David laments that he was born in sin (Ps. 51:5) and Paul confirms both the inborn nature of sin and our ongoing struggle with it (Rom. 6–7).
The first human tragedy we see in Scripture speaks to this, as God informs Adam that sin’s impact on him and his race will be both spiritual and physical (Gen. 3:17–19; see also Rom. 5:12–20).
The sin nature manifests itself from birth and we wrestle with it until death.
As a Christian I view homosexual orientation or attraction as one of many manifestations of fallen nature, and homosexual behavior as a deliberate, immoral response to such attraction.
Any other belief contrary to that is against scripture.
I concede that orientation is involuntary; people do not choose to be attracted to the same sex any more than people choose to be born with a sin nature, but the bulk of evidence regarding the origin of homosexuality still points to a combination of biological, psychological, and environmental factors as its root.
My conclusion is this, given the interplay of such factors; it seems likely that homosexual orientation originates in the course of a person’s developmental process rather than being determined at birth, sort of as a path of least resistance.
Whatever its cause, though, homosexual orientation is usually discovered, not chosen.
Once a person discovers his or her homosexual orientation, that person can choose whether to act on that orientation, as each member of Adam’s race chooses whether to act on his or her sinful nature.
And that’s where moral culpability comes into play OtishOtish, conditions may be involuntary, but acts are chosen….
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Post by omundustrong on Jun 28, 2013 9:01:06 GMT 3
Dineo,i like the spin you put on the topic.What you describe is a well known defence mechanism where you find a preacher who consistently condemns pornographic but in real life he is addicted to porn.Let the discussion continue.As for me and my wife we shall continue to enjoy what God gave us.The others can continue enjoying doing what they do however,everything has a price to pay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 9:19:10 GMT 3
OtishOtish, it does not escape my attention that you argue a secular perspective. Many of the things which you point out are matters that reflect your civility and candour with regards to fellow human beings...
I respect that…
remember I stated that mine was a Christian observation influenced by biblical values that determine human sexuality. Even if one does not subscribe to christianity... surely common sense ought to kick in..
You said that “LGBT people are not fighting to be allowed into the Christian church. They are fighting for the right to live the same sort of decent, safe, etc. life that everyone is entitled to”
…. and I agree… all I am saying is this…
“I will not placate a spreading immoral behavior by confusing it with something that it’s not or by sugar coating it”
Homosexuals just like prostitutes are justified to fight for their rights all they want... but I will not pass them as acceptable practices. Yes to human rights and all that... but NO TO IMMORALITY, iniquity and plain wickedness.
Sir those who have followed gay debates know that three major features that gay support groups and lobby advance are -
1] Innateness: by this Homosexuals claim that their condition is inborn and unchangeable; therefore, it is normal and God ordained.
2] Insignificance: by this homosexuals mean that they are decent, respectable citizens who happen to be gay; therefore, their sexual behavior is insignificant or unimportant.
3] Intolerance: with this view homosexuals and their sidekicks paint the authentic Christian view on homosexuality [which they term traditional] as ignorant and promote anti-gay sentiment, which gives birth to prejudice and violence; therefore, it is unacceptable.
These arguments are often presented as though they have been proven or are self-evidently true, which makes anyone who challenges them homophobic and intolerant and many Christians shy away from discussing the subject for these reasons alone.
But I am the type of a Christian who is willing to be controversial for the sake of the truth. I have a divine mandate which I received from Christ not just to evangelize the world (Matt. 28:16–20), but to influence it as well (Matt. 5:13–16).
You probably know that Jesus preached the gospel, but also made public statements on social issues such as racism and sexism (John 4:4–11), religious hypocrisy (Matt. 6:1–2, 5–6), and the abuse of power (Matt. 20:25–26).
The apostle Paul instructed the Ephesians not only to separate themselves from immorality but to reprove it openly (Eph. 5:11).
There are some things which others may want to include in the bible which was not the original intent of the creator. Have you not read In Matt 19:8 where Jesus says…
"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning”?
The real, underlining problem is not about the biblical law and the reasons for having strict regulations; the real problem, at the core of it all, is the problem of our hardness of heart.
The hardness of the heart of people who have all the power, they use their power to strip the goodness out of God's word and creation.
"From the beginning it was not so," says Jesus. From the beginning we were whole.
A broken promise, including the broken promises of marriage, was a serious matter. It is about the breakdown of wholeness. This break down of relationships is at the heart of this issue of homosexuality, at the very core.
Any Christian worth his/her salt is required to engage the culture by clearly articulating biblical positions on controversial issues that are relevant to our contemporary society. Sexual issues are not exempt from this mandate.
To refuse this challenge is to refuse our calling to be both salt and light to those who are perishing.
Your western culture and indeed, the world at large is showing unprecedented opposition to any engagement on homosexuality from a true biblical perspective, whether in public forums, in academic circles, or even in our own churches and homes.
In the interest of being better equipped to meet this challenge, I refuse to join the flow…
Just because someone claims that some individuals are “born gay” may settle the issue for some but not for me.
This argument has become like a “feel good pill “ for it kind of settles the issue for many simply because it makes people feel better about their sexual orientation, or the sexual orientation of someone they care about.
Family members of gay people find comfort because the blame is shifted to “a genetic” which exonerates the culprit from his/her responsibility.
“This is not MY fault; this is not YOUR fault.” Kinda thing! Gays feel relieved with this argument because it “makes them feel good about themselves,” and “less [like] a sinner,”
Small wonder then, that this notion of unchangeable homosexuality tendency is a pillar of gay movement kingpins.
If homosexuality is inborn, then it should be viewed like race or gender, putting homosexuals in the same minority status as African Americans, or women, an oppressed yet determined class struggling for dignity and fair treatment.
Nonsense...
Conversely it portrays Christians like me as being in the same oppressive class as those who opposed civil rights.I tell you the truth that is the devils winning strategy from the pit of hell!
So if homosexuality is innate, gay supporters say, it is unchangeable, and, therefore, God must have created it.
The “born gay” argument gains its strength from the belief that what we are is what we were intended to be but experience tells us otherwise; birth defects and early inclinations toward antisocial behavior are not the work of a loving Creator.
So we are imperfect from birth; and therefore we are imperfect for life. This testifies to the fact that our human natures are fallen (i.e., sinful), a foundational concept in Christianity. David laments that he was born in sin (Ps. 51:5) and Paul confirms both the inborn nature of sin and our ongoing struggle with it (Rom. 6–7).
The first human tragedy we see in Scripture speaks to this, as God informs Adam that sin’s impact on him and his race will be both spiritual and physical (Gen. 3:17–19; see also Rom. 5:12–20).
The sin nature manifests itself from birth and we wrestle with it until death.
As a Christian I view homosexual orientation or attraction as one of many manifestations of fallen nature, and homosexual behavior as a deliberate, immoral response to such attraction.
Any other belief contrary to that is against scripture.
I concede that orientation is involuntary; people do not choose to be attracted to the same sex any more than people choose to be born with a sin nature, but the bulk of evidence regarding the origin of homosexuality still points to a combination of biological, psychological, and environmental factors as its root.
My conclusion is this, given the interplay of such factors; it seems likely that homosexual orientation originates in the course of a person’s developmental process rather than being determined at birth, sort of as a path of least resistance.
Whatever its cause, though, homosexual orientation is usually discovered, not chosen.
Once a person discovers his or her homosexual orientation, that person can choose whether to act on that orientation, as each member of Adam’s race chooses whether to act on his or her sinful nature.
And that’s where moral culpability comes into play OtishOtish, conditions may be involuntary, but acts are chosen….
The thread is about the escalation of violence against gay men and transgender women. You have nothing to say about that. What it brought out in you, is a homophobic rant. The best you could do though to justify your piece of hate speech was to endlessly thump the bible at us. That won't work. The bible justifies many vicious things especially if read literally. Take that from me. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 9:38:19 GMT 3
FRANK MUGISHA UGANDAN LGBTI RIGHTS ACTIVISTlisten to the podcast here. www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/popupaudio.html?clipIds=2390946244forsight, hear him discuss the role of american evangelicals in promoting homophobia.in uganda. These evangelicals have also been very active in kenya promoting their hate. You come accross as a good student of theirs.
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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 28, 2013 14:12:50 GMT 3
The three Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) - as practiced by many (if not most) of their adherents today (especially in Africa), operate outside the realm of logic vis a vis the separation of church (personal religious beliefs) and state (individual inaliable rights). One of the most astonishing things about Ruto's bit was his inability, in his Bible-thumping, to even project an understanding of the need for that separation. It reminded me of those "god-fearing" types in the American south who would quote the Bible to "prove" that black people were created to be slaves. Looking at the history of those "three great religions"---and I was brought up in one of them (Christianity)---one is astonished that we have learned so little from the history of those who gave us these. Some random thoughts ... {{{{{}}}}}} It is an offshoot of the Christian church that came about because the head of the church (the then Pope) would not let a head of state (Henry VII) freely enjoy his extra-curricular ding-dong. Henry solved the state-church separation problem quite neatly: there would be a new church, and its head (Henry) would be the head (Henry again) of state, who could then enjoy whatever ding-dong he chose. And he proceeded to do just that---Wife I, Wife II, ... Wife VI. One has to admit that it was a bit cheeky of the Pope to deny him those "rights" in a period when the popes were leading their flock in terms of booze& drugs, assorted debauchery, political murders, etc. Those popes would have regarded Berlusconi's bunga-bunga as childish, boy-scout stuff. But, equally, one has to admit that with his new freedom the King/Head-of-Church did not set good standards, with a procedure of divorce that consisted of an axe or a sword to the neck of the wife, perhaps preceded by a short and miserable imprisonment ... But here we are: The Church of England. Man! I should be hold up somewhere strategising on how to repel the onslaught of this Uhuruto government on the Teacher's unions! A lady Justice has just thrown the carrot to Githu Muigai, who is consulting his think-tank on how crush KNUT! I guess the think-tank will tell him it is all (rofl)Raila's machinations! But I read you ---incorrigible rascal! and I have taken a break from life and death issues to come and smile at you, or do you want the smut I promised!? I love Henry VIII.I once told my dad there was a King who divorced his women by cutting off their heads when they no longer pleased him. 'What did he do to homos? he asked me. I told him he 'made them chaperons of his harem'. But.... patience, this will lead to a statement on Ruto's 'political pathos'!The Roman Curia was once God's cabinet on earth. The Chairman of that Curia was of course the Pope, and he was God's representative on this planet, his dictates or pronouncements having the validity of divine law, god's wishes. And as Chinua Achebe once quipped: God's case no appeal. But the pope was a man, and the curia were men, and their business was running God's earth. They were politicians. Politicians running a vast empire. Indeed they were successors to the Roman empire. An imperial order.It then does not surprise, that certain parts of God's world viewed the Roman papacy as a colonial dictatorship, that had yoked them into a regime of exploitation, stagnation and an ideological scam. Throughout the Catholic world of Europe, minds were busy seeking 'enlightenment', ways to rid themselves of this orthodoxy. ---It would culminate in the disputations of Luther the German around 1506 pinned on a church door. The split had come. But it had been a long time in coming within the Church. In the realm of politics, great things had happened. The greatest was the passing of the laws in England which were called the statutes of PRE-AMUNIRE. [Edward I 1306]. The Roman Curia and its titular popes had actually been taxing English peasantry and nobility to the bone, and siphoning off the proceeds, exporting capital to off-shore localities. No, I am not talking about Kenya today!  The racket was enshrined in one word: benefice. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaObviously this robbery by foreign powers, whether ordained by God or not, was not going to go unchallenged, and english nationalism reached the top, where the King, ever looking at a budgetary deficit like our finance-man Rotich  , saw the sense of curtailing the export of Capital, and instead investing it at home in England. And so they passed a law that prevented God's people from obeying FOREIGN POWERS on matters of collection and disbursement of money, even if these were God's representatives on earth. Once this precedent is laid down in law, it is fairly reasonable to assume it would be further developed, may be up to its logical end, which is the annulment of all God's laws over ECONOMICS and POLITICS.God becomes a private affair. The modern state emerges as the ultimate sovereign on the public space. Her constituion the almighty, drawn from the people. But with us humans as ever, of course subject to misuse, in the rule rather than exception! PRAEMUNIRE: is defined as taking the authority of the papacy above that of the CROWN.
Eg. If the chancellor of the exchequer, or minister of finance, is conflicted between the laws of his land and the laws of his religion, has to choose between his King and sovereign, and his Pope, representative of God on earth, and lets the papal clerical decree take precedent over the Kings instructions, at one time in history, this became treason. Earlier on, even [european] Kings were under God's law, which meant subservience to the Pope. It was a ticking-bomb arrangement. Like every colonialism. Otishotish,This long story is inspired by your commentry on Henry the 8th, and his dick-led rebellion from Rome, and no less declaring himself 'leader of the church', [actually a kind of anglican pope] so that he could enjoy as many marriages as he wished! He could now interpret the law of God by virtue of him being leader of the church. And God said, go thee and multiply! [and fill england!]. Clever men like Thomas Moore, keen to avoid the blade, suggested it could mean the King could have as many wives as he wished, within reason. [he also had to run england, and not lie in bed the whole day, is the undertone!] So now I make the point I wanted to make on William Ruto.
He is the half-president or at least co-president to Uhuru, by virtue of a constitution and process drawn from THE PEOPLE. ----Not God. This is important.When Ruto then, or any other state official sworn to the constitution promulagated on behalf of the people and not God, puts the law of God or the Bible above that constitution which is pledged to uphold inealienable rights regardless of race, etc etc and yes, sexual orientation, they commit a modern form of PRAEMUNIRE. Now defined as putting CHURCH DOCTRINE above STATE LAW in public office.Ruto, were he to repeat this statement about homos and dogs, would be mocking the oath of allegiance he took with Mutunga as midwife at Kisarani, to defend THE CONSTITUTION. Of course they politicians flout the constitution everyday, but it is important that it is stated lucidly and recorded, so that should a man dedicated to the constitution arise, he has a slum-dunk in cutting off heads. You never know the future, and who wants to say impunity will continue in Kenya forever? Even the power of divine Rome and the papacy is now confined to the Vatican. More earthly creatures like Obama, Putin and Jinpin rule the world. A-times a-change. |
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dineo
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Post by dineo on Jun 28, 2013 17:49:41 GMT 3
Foresight,
This is a thread about violence against gay men. Are you for or against violence towards gay Kenyan men?
I got a migraine reading your screeds but I’m glad I did because the absolute idiocy of your stance is fully encapsulated by these lines you wrote about homosexual arguments:
And therein lies the sheer stupidity of your brand of Christianity (and all brands of religious fanatics of all stripes by the way, including Islam into which I was born).
What is “proven” or “self-evidently true” about Christianity or any other religion for that matter? What is proven or self-evidently true about anything you have said here? Why should we take the figments of your imagination (your religious views) seriously?
Where is the scientific proof that God exists and which God by the way? Psalms 82:1 says: “God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment”. So which God are you speaking of? Mithras? Baal? Allah-swt? The wonderful, loving Brahma of the Hindus? Olodumare? Odin? Innana? Zeus? Ananywu? Ambisagrus? Brittania?
Where is the self-evident, factual proof that your so far hallucinatory “mandate from Christ” is verifiable, i.e. bona fide and demonstrable under scientific process? Where is the, again, methodical evidence?
Where is the evidence that the story of Noah’s Ark existed? Since the rainwaters were so high (higher than even the Himalayas), how were the animals able to survive since nothing can breath unaided at that altitude? When the ark landed on Mt. Ararat in Turkey (thousands of kilometres away from Australia etc.), why didn’t Noah disperse marsupials throughout the entire world? Did he get on another boat and drop them off in the Southern Hemisphere? If so, why? Why did he confine marsupials to the Southern Hemisphere? What was the sense in that?
Are Gikuyu and Mumbi descendants of Adam and Eve? Or are they Adam and Eve since in Kikuyu traditional narrative, Ngai (God), created them as the first human couple?
Why do straight couples in traditional marriages give birth to and raise gay children? Gay couples are incapable of naturally giving birth to gays, so where did all these gay Kenyans come from? What is wrong with the Kenyan heterosexual-parented family structure since it appears men and women are incapable of raising only straight children? Why are they raising all these children who grow up to search for gay porn online, ensuring that Kenya is first in online searches by volume worldwide???
Your screeds are meant to sidetrack this thread and not based on fact or logic. Any atheist child asking questions of you as I have, would systemically dismantle your 'arguments', because as is always the case, religion and LOGIC do not go hand in hand.
BUT, let me make this clear to you:
You are not going to sidetrack this thread with bluster and hot air which it appears is what your brand of fanatics always do when the narrative goes wide and isn’t about them and the mirages they delude themselves into believing – and then seek to forcefully foist onto the rest of humanity.
As this thread progressed, you were utterly incapable of staying away… From a thread that had nothing to do with Christianity but was all about violence towards innocents. Where does this virulent psychosis come from in religious fanatics??? How on earth did you view that video of Amina and Sakina (or read OO's initial article) and make this topic about you??? Foresight, whatever narrative or ‘mandate’ you have been convinced of by Apostle so-and-so should remain within the confines of your religious group, tent, or mind. It has nothing to do with us, our personal beliefs or lack thereof, or with our worldviews.
Christianity is a CHOICE. You choose to be Christian. So kindly digest that your decisions are personal and have nothing to do with the rest of us.
If you are seeking converts, I suggest you take that mandate to another thread or forum and start fishing for souls there. And take your proselytizing back under a tent where the non-thinking or like-minded are.
This thread is about defenseless Kenyan gays and male sex workers – like Amina and Sakina in the video - who are being brutalized by other African men (who are gay whether they want to believe it or not).
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 28, 2013 18:13:18 GMT 3
Foresight:
I believe in God, and I am not arguing a secular point. In fact, at the bottom of my views is what I regard to be the essence of Christ's message. He said: "Love thy neighbour as thyself." Think about that one.
Again, I urge you to keep in mind that Christianity is just ONE religion, and it's beliefs must not be forced on others, especially on the basis of misguided and fanatical interpretations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 18:54:25 GMT 3
It's like kenyans woke up, looked around, then realised that LGBTI people are right there. Audrey Mbugua's work is bringing out the worse in kenyans in terms of homophobia and transphobia. Kwani bars and restaurants have just noticed that there are gay people there? This just means that rights defenders have to up the ante, upto and including exposing the complicity of uhuru on this at the local and international levels. Where is margaret kenyatta on this? I see she wants to stop jiggers, save elephants which are good endeavors. But what about saving the people? Nairobi gay community use ‘dirty tricks’ to spread influence
Updated Thursday, June 27th 2013 at 21:12 GMT +3
By NYAMBEGA GISESAwww.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000086928&story_title=gays-use-dirty-tricks-to-spread-influence |
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 28, 2013 20:18:21 GMT 3
Reflecting on the historical persecution of gays and on the dangers of absurd views, Hitler's Reich came to mind. The killing of Jews has often overshadowed what he did to other people who were considered not the right sort of Germans to be allowed to procreate. That group included homosexuals, although how just many homosexuals would have been busy procreating is not clear. At any rate their "criminality" and "uselessness" seemed to have been in no doubt. Once it was officially determined that homosexuals were "of no racial value"---an assessment probably made by the Kiser Wilhem Institute of Anthropology, Heredity, and Eugenics---the law got serious with them. Prior to 1934, the number prosecuted as criminals was less than 1,000 per year; after that, it rose to nearly 10,000 per year. Criminality was regarded as hereditary, and so, to stop a line of a "bad lot", the law dealing with "dangerous habitual criminals" permitted the castration of "sexual deviants".
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dineo
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Post by dineo on Jun 28, 2013 20:48:30 GMT 3
Kathure,
Neither Uhuru, Ruto nor Margaret Kenyatta are going to stand in defense of gay Kenyans’ rights. Politicians only get dragged in when their children are discovered in compromising positions, or when they themselves are. It will never happen and if ever it did, they would just send their children abroad, kill them, or destroy the evidence (sex partners) - assuming they or their children were uncovered as gay.
If anything, sympathisers and the LGBT community as a whole should brace themselves for the “worse than pigs and dogs” onslaught that is on its way. That and the maniacal, fanatic religionists and ridiculous op-eds similar to the link you just posted.
Gay rights in Kenya are going to have to be fought for the hard way, through blood, sweat and tears. Either that way or through a concerted effort by the LGBT community to unmask the still closeted – which then raises the question of whether or not they have the right to unmask others.
Obviously, these searches for gay pornography cannot be isolated to the – I am assuming – few thousand openly ‘out’ Kenyan gays and gay expatriates/refugees living in our country who have access to the internet. For the volume of searches to exceed that of Nigeria (a country with a population of 162.5 million people), or for that matter for specific Kenya gay porn searches to be first in the world, exceeding those of western countries like the U.S. and Canada, we must assume that closeted gay or bi-sexual Kenyans exist in the high millions. Maybe the entire country including all of you are, except me, lol.
Numbers don’t lie.
Either that, or the absence of homosexual outlets and venues etc. has eventuated a scenario in which the few thousand openly ‘out’ gay Kenyans are spending every waking moment online keying in these porn terms. And obviously, that can’t be the case. At least logically, it doesn’t add up.
Obviously, it’s not M-Pesa wananchi are accessing on their phones, they’re searching for gay porn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 21:43:46 GMT 3
dineoappreciate your comments on this thread. will respond more fully later. Here comes Njue. Head of the catholic church in kenya. Asiachwe nyuma. But nyuma is where his head's at. For a church that has been exposed to have harboured thousands of pedofiles, for decades and yes centuries, he'd be well advised to zip his mouth. For, if progressive forces started breaking down for the faithful the damage that the catholic church as an institution, driven by individuals, has done on this matter, the kenyan church will need to spin other lies to cover up for that one. Luckily for them, at the moment, the atrocities against children and women by hetrosexual male clergy in the africa church, is yet to be exposed 'cept for few out of what I'm sure is in the hundreds of thousands. Shikuku junior has taken up that good fight. The Church has had to pay out millions in canada, the u.s and western european countries. In africa and the rest of the exploited under developed world, people haven't had the resources to pursue the sinful catholic church. dineo I want to also state that pedophilia has been and is the crime mainly of hetrosexual men. And they can be hetrosexual and want to abuse only boys. Goes to show that rape is more about power over another person than sex. I say this because folks have a tendancy to equate pedopiles who target boys [as opposed to girls] with gay men which in and of itself is a homophobic sterotype. The Catholic Church has criticised US President Obama stand on gay rights.
Cardinal John Njue said Kenyans should respect their identity and cultural norms.
"Let him (Obama) forget, forget and forget. I don't think God was making a mistake when he created Adam and Eve and told them what to do," said Cardinal Njue at the Consolota Shrine in Nairobi Friday.
He said Kenya does not need lessons from a "ruined" society.
"We must be proud of who we are. Those who have already ruined their society cannot come here to teach us what we should do."
On Thursday, President Obama said the gay should be treated like other people under the law in Africa.
This is despite the fact that homosexuality is illegal in most countries on the continent.
“My basic view is that regardless of race, regardless of religion, regardless of gender, regardless of sexual orientation, when it comes to the law, people should be treated equally,” Mr Obama said in Senegal.
He, however, said the issue of same sex marriages was the prerogative of individual countries.www.nation.co.ke/News/Cardinal-Njue-criticises-Obama-gay-stance/-/1056/1897702/-/lxexc0/-/index.html
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, saw the sense of curtailing the export of Capital, and instead investing it at home in England.