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Post by b6k on Oct 11, 2013 17:48:41 GMT 3
Njakip, stop derailing the thread with rambling Afro-pessimist posts & watch the video posted by Mank above very closely. Witness number 2 may be heading for perjury charges if he doesn't watch out. Karim Kahn is setting him up to be considered an unreliable witness at best, & a lying cheat at worst... karim khan worked hard at confusing the witness . On the first day of cross examination, I did note that Karim khan told the witness to answer the questions and quickly added most of them will require only yes or no. I thought that this was a sly way of discouraging the witness from elaborating on his answers. Anyways b6k, keep wishing but we all heard what the witness had to say and in no way is he perjuring himself. Others of far superior intellect than yours describe the witness as witty and courageous. But if it makes you feel better, it's OK to wish, so you stay in wish land. TUESDAY, OCTOBER 8, 2013 Witness steals the show with his wit and English ‘mastery’ By Walter Menya Kathure, do yourself a favour & join the rest of the class before you embarrass yourself unnecessarily. How can you quote an article dated 8th October, a time when the witness was answering "softballs" lobbed at him by the friendly OTP, when we are in the 11th? The testimony that's going to have him perjure himself is the more hostile line of questioning he faced under the defence led by Kahn on the 10th and today (the 11th). Judge Oga had to restrain Kahn at closing today when he unleashed a tirade as to the witness's motivation for going to The Hague (an easy life with a house in a first world country) that got him to lie his way to Den Haag. So catch up with the testimony and then come back & tell us who is in "wish land". I wonder what your "superior intellect", Menya has to say today...
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Post by b6k on Oct 11, 2013 19:04:02 GMT 3
Special delivery for Kathure as some of us deal in breaking news not historical anecdotes: NAIROBI, Kenya, Oct 11 – Deputy President William Ruto’s defence counsel Karim Khan on Friday completed his cross-examination of the second ICC prosecution witness whom he accused of fabricating information to ‘fix’ his client. Khan who vehemently challenged the evidence of P0326 said the witness decided to lie in order to get ‘freebies’ offered by the International Criminal Court. “I don’t want you to be under any illusion, I am putting to you that you quite deliberately concocted not a mistaken but a fraudulent and false account and peddled it as if it were the truth,” Khan said. P0326 responded: “All my statements as I was told, from the people I happened to talk with, to my knowledge that is what happened.” Khan further accused him of agreeing to lie to the court due to the privileges accorded to ICC witnesses. “ You have deceived and conned your way all to The Hague and you have not stopped lying even now,” Khan alleged. Earlier, Khan presented video clips, online materials, bank statements, photos, letters and newspaper articles to dismantle the evidence put forward by the witness. One of the video recordings was showing an Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) campaign rally at the Kenyatta Stadium in Kitale. In the video clip, only former Prime Minister Raila Odinga addressed the rally due to heavy rains. Earlier on, the witness had told the court that Ruto had addressed the rally in which he referred to people with big pieces of land as hyenas. According to the video: “The climax of the ODM tour was a public rally at the Kenyatta Stadium in Kitale…however the ODM pentagon who had accompanied him (Odinga) did not get a chance to address the rally due to heavy rains.” Khan on several occasions prodded him to say if he heard Ruto utter the word ‘hyena’ at any other rally apart from the Kitale rally and the witness stubbornly maintained that he said it at the Kitale rally. “Did you ever hear Ruto use the word hyena,” Khan queried; “I heard him for the rally of Kitale,” the witness responded as he insisted he attended the rally. He accused him of deceiving the court. “Witness you are trying to deceive this court. When you spoke under oath that Ruto spoke at the rally in Kitale, and that you attended the rally and like we have seen, he did not speak at all.” Khan further dismissed the witness who had told the court that the last ODM campaign rally before the 2007 General Election was held in December at Uhuru Park.The lawyer provided evidence to show that former President Mwai Kibaki’s Party of National Unity (PNU) held its last rally at Uhuru Park whereas the Odinga’s ODM held its rally at the Nyayo National Stadium. www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2013/10/icc-witness-2-is-a-liar-rutos-lawyer/He presented video and newspaper articles as proof that ODM’s held a rally at Uhuru Park on October 6, 2007 while its last rally was held in December at the Nyayo National Stadium. He also used a letter from James Magara, the ODM National Treasurer in charge of logistics: “There was no ODM meeting at Uhuru Park in December 2007. The ODM rally in Nairobi was at Nyayo National Stadium on December 24, 2007.”
Using a bank statement and a letter from Magara, Khan further dismissed allegations made by P0326 that Ruto received money from ODM.
In the letter Magara said: “The rules and regulations of the party did not permit the treasurer to make any hard cash advancements or payments to any of its nominees… I wish to state categorically that at no point in time during my tenure as the treasurer of the party was any money given to Ruto.”The witness had told the court that on January 3, 2008 he was at building ‘A’ where he heard a person instructing another to give money to Ruto. The witness said Ruto was given the money to help ODM youths trapped in various places during the Post Election Violence. It was not clear if the witness overheard the conversation on December 31, 2007 or January 3, 2008 prompting the judge to seek clarification. “So we are clear on the record, on how many occasions did you hear the conversation on Ruto receiving money?” Presiding Judge Chile Eboe-Osuji asked and the witness said he only heard it once after the post election violence had already started. Former journalist Joshua arap Sang’s lawyer, Katwa Kigen was next in cross-examining the second ICC prosecution witness. www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2013/10/icc-witness-2-is-a-liar-rutos-lawyer/2/...so Kathure, there you have it. At least you'll be glad to know Katwa Kigen botched his cross examination as he never seemed to recover after playing too much Boney M Christmas tunes from the get-go
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Post by mank on Oct 11, 2013 19:39:32 GMT 3
Njakip, stop derailing the thread with rambling Afro-pessimist posts & watch the video posted by Mank above very closely. Witness number 2 may be heading for perjury charges if he doesn't watch out. Karim Kahn is setting him up to be considered an unreliable witness at best, & a lying cheat at worst... B6K, You and I are reading from the same page. However by demeanor, I sense that the court is too sympathetic to the WITNESS body to let Flamboyant Khan go anywhere with a perjury charge. So to echo you, I think Khan is trying to establish that the witness is unreliable on account of not being as informed as he might think he is (or that he's simply lying). The immediate Khan mission, I think is to show that the witness is not as key a person in matters ODM as the witness might have alleged, or that the witness was not as privy to ODM matters as he may allege (I don't know for sure that the witness has claimed to be key ODM person, but projecting backwards from some of the questions by Khan, that seems the case - I don't even know with certainty why that would be important (but if it is the goal, it serves Khan well that the judge erroneously anticipated that the witness might have been at crucial events as one of the few), except I can see its currency once we start evaluating the significance of being "King of the Rift Valley" - I will whisper my thought on that (at the end of this). I think Khan is also using this witness to establish that there is too much cherry-picking and stretching of imaginations by the prosecution. I am surprised the prosecution (especially the prosecution) and victims teams don't object more vigorously to the general extensions into the case that Khan seems to explore while questioning the witness. ... LO ... its only after wrting this that I got to read your latest, just above .... perhaps perjury is not as distant in Khan's objectives as I thought!It was helpful to the prosecution that the witness refused to give an honest assessment of what was happening to Raila when he was being fitted the muungĩ (traditional hat, in the court's lingo). But I expect Khan to revisit that point and to bring down the castle that the prosecution has built about Ruto being king of the RV ... and hence the lord for whom every evil was committed. At the extreme, Khan might end wondering loudly, persistently and irritatingly, that if being king is explanatory, perhaps the prosecution quite erroneously went for a junior king for whom the case cannot really be made ... (ODM hierarchy and and who-was-for-what office in the campaigns are all factors Khan has invested in without raising any major alarms yet). Recall the other clip in which Ruto whispers something (let's treat this as a whisper too ... after all it is just an imagination). On that thought, B6K, you were a step ahead:
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 12, 2013 2:09:35 GMT 3
b6k:
I really haven't been closely following all of the witness's testimony;, so I can't make a detailed comment. From what I can tell this witnesses is mainly providing "background" material and nothing even close to the sort of "hot stuff" that Law & Order types expect or imagine they are getting. I encourage those types to try and keep their underwear dry; these are early days.
Also, among other things, the very low signal-to-noise ratio on this thread means that I have not been (and am unlikely to become) an active participant.
It does, however, seem to me that far too many people here have never followed a serious criminal case from its start to finish in a court of law; and that includes even a trial on the national scale. As far as ICC trials go, I would encourage anyone who has a serious interest in these matters to carefully review the Lubanga case: e.g., the fact that a witness is unable to precisely recollect something or even lies in part of his or her testimony does not necessarily mean that all of the testimony is made up. What matters is what can be corroborated and ascertained to be truthful.
I would also stay away from funny ideas about what is involved in perjury charges.
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Post by b6k on Oct 12, 2013 8:42:42 GMT 3
Njakip, stop derailing the thread with rambling Afro-pessimist posts & watch the video posted by Mank above very closely. Witness number 2 may be heading for perjury charges if he doesn't watch out. Karim Kahn is setting him up to be considered an unreliable witness at best, & a lying cheat at worst... B6K, You and I are reading from the same page. However by demeanor, I sense that the court is too sympathetic to the WITNESS body to let Flamboyant Khan go anywhere with a perjury charge. So to echo you, I think Khan is trying to establish that the witness is unreliable on account of not being as informed as he might think he is (or that he's simply lying). The immediate Khan mission, I think is to show that the witness is not as key a person in matters ODM as the witness might have alleged, or that the witness was not as privy to ODM matters as he may allege (I don't know for sure that the witness has claimed to be key ODM person, but projecting backwards from some of the questions by Khan, that seems the case - I don't even know with certainty why that would be important (but if it is the goal, it serves Khan well that the judge erroneously anticipated that the witness might have been at crucial events as one of the few), except I can see its currency once we start evaluating the significance of being "King of the Rift Valley" - I will whisper my thought on that (at the end of this). I think Khan is also using this witness to establish that there is too much cherry-picking and stretching of imaginations by the prosecution. I am surprised the prosecution (especially the prosecution) and victims teams don't object more vigorously to the general extensions into the case that Khan seems to explore while questioning the witness. ... LO ... its only after wrting this that I got to read your latest, just above .... perhaps perjury is not as distant in Khan's objectives as I thought!It was helpful to the prosecution that the witness refused to give an honest assessment of what was happening to Raila when he was being fitted the muungĩ (traditional hat, in the court's lingo). But I expect Khan to revisit that point and to bring down the castle that the prosecution has built about Ruto being king of the RV ... and hence the lord for whom every evil was committed. At the extreme, Khan might end wondering loudly, persistently and irritatingly, that if being king is explanatory, perhaps the prosecution quite erroneously went for a junior king for whom the case cannot really be made ... (ODM hierarchy and and who-was-for-what office in the campaigns are all factors Khan has invested in without raising any major alarms yet). Recall the other clip in which Ruto whispers something (let's treat this as a whisper too ... after all it is just an imagination). On that thought, B6K, you were a step ahead: Mank, contrary to the ramblings from the peanut gallery the defence teams must be commended for attempting to free the ICC trials from the obsessive secrecy that is favored by the OTP as their MO. That is what most Kenyans had hoped they would get out of this process, not smoke & mirrors private sessions without knowledge of how a verdict (if any) was reached. The defence teams were going into closed or private sessions for very brief periods...4 minutes here, 30 seconds there. They are defending their clients in public while the OTP is trying them behind closed doors/curtains. The one thing the Lubanga case (referred to by our chief character from Peanuts, aka Snoopy ) has in common with the Ruto/Sang trial is the OTP's preference to carry out their business in secret, hidden from public scrutiny. This isn't the best way to build confidence in the ICC process. Having actually watched the open sessions (when they are uploaded onto the internet) it becomes clear that those who rely on the odd article here or wishful thinking there may be in for a surprise. How can one even comment if they self admittedly haven't been following the testimonies in toto save for sound bytes & dodgy articles? The credibility of the prosecutions witnesses is being soundly brought to question...
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Oct 12, 2013 18:38:40 GMT 3
b6k: I really haven't been closely following all of the witness's testimony;, so I can't make a detailed comment. From what I can tell this witnesses is mainly providing "background" material and nothing even close to the sort of "hot stuff" that Law & Order types expect or imagine they are getting. I encourage those types to try and keep their underwear dry; these are early days. Also, among other things, the very low signal-to-noise ratio on this thread means that I have not been (and am unlikely to become) an active participant. It does, however, seem to me that far too many people here have never followed a serious criminal case from its start to finish in a court of law; and that includes even a trial on the national scale. As far as ICC trials go, I would encourage anyone who has a serious interest in these matters to carefully review the Lubanga case: e.g., the fact that a witness is unable to precisely recollect something or even lies in part of his or her testimony does not necessarily mean that all of the testimony is made up. What matters is what can be corroborated and ascertained to be truthful. I would also stay away from funny ideas about what is involved in perjury charges. Ehe, early days you say hu? I know you sold our passport but I doubt that with it, went your knowledge of our ways because you do write about them here occasionally with a lot of disdain of course. You must therefore remember our saying that siku njema huonekana asubuhi. To say it has been pathetic for the prosecutor thus far would be an understatement. How exactly did it get to this ndugu Oti? Was it this desperate? How exactly did you get these witnesses? Was it about anyone who could say anything about any of the three? The last few days have left me more convinced that our Mutunga's Makadara is country mile better. We only need to brand it 'international' and we are home and dry. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by mank on Oct 12, 2013 22:10:06 GMT 3
Mank, contrary to the ramblings from the peanut gallery the defence teams must be commended for attempting to free the ICC trials from the obsessive secrecy that is favored by the OTP as their MO. That is what most Kenyans had hoped they would get out of this process, not smoke & mirrors private sessions without knowledge of how a verdict (if any) was reached. The defence teams were going into closed or private sessions for very brief periods...4 minutes here, 30 seconds there. They are defending their clients in public while the OTP is trying them behind closed doors/curtains. The one thing the Lubanga case (referred to by our chief character from Peanuts, aka Snoopy ) has in common with the Ruto/Sang trial is the OTP's preference to carry out their business in secret, hidden from public scrutiny. This isn't the best way to build confidence in the ICC process. Having actually watched the open sessions (when they are uploaded onto the internet) it becomes clear that those who rely on the odd article here or wishful thinking there may be in for a surprise. How can one even comment if they self admittedly haven't been following the testimonies in toto save for sound bytes & dodgy articles? The credibility of the prosecutions witnesses is being soundly brought to question... Oh my goodness! I was writing exactly that just seconds ago, in Omwenga's thread, but I decided not to be so elaborate - that's is exactly what I mean by "What Uhuru and his proponents should be demanding is not a dismissal of the case, rather an above board and efficient litigation (see here.)
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Post by mank on Oct 13, 2013 2:33:18 GMT 3
B6K, What do you make of the way Katwa Kigen was roughed up yesterday (11th)? Part of my layman mind (viz. legal processes) tells me that Mr. President felt the horse was already dead, and hence that Katwa needed not use more time beating the still animal while members of the court yawned and thought forward into Monday. The remaining part of my layman mind tells me that Katwa deserved his time, and was too rudely treated by Mr. President. If it were to be left to me, I would have the case transferred to Judge Judy's court at this point - when one side of a whipsaw balance gets lighter, the other may deceptively appear to have gained weight. Judge Judy looks very appealing right now.... how could that be left without a rofl?.
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 13, 2013 4:09:48 GMT 3
The one thing the Lubanga case (referred to by our chief character from Peanuts, aka Snoopy ) That is an image of my beagle, Sparky. If you have issues with me, then direct them to me. But attacking a man's dog is just plain, simple-minded nastiness.
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Post by b6k on Oct 13, 2013 11:38:57 GMT 3
Mank, contrary to the ramblings from the peanut gallery the defence teams must be commended for attempting to free the ICC trials from the obsessive secrecy that is favored by the OTP as their MO. That is what most Kenyans had hoped they would get out of this process, not smoke & mirrors private sessions without knowledge of how a verdict (if any) was reached. The defence teams were going into closed or private sessions for very brief periods...4 minutes here, 30 seconds there. They are defending their clients in public while the OTP is trying them behind closed doors/curtains. The one thing the Lubanga case (referred to by our chief character from Peanuts, aka Snoopy ) has in common with the Ruto/Sang trial is the OTP's preference to carry out their business in secret, hidden from public scrutiny. This isn't the best way to build confidence in the ICC process. Having actually watched the open sessions (when they are uploaded onto the internet) it becomes clear that those who rely on the odd article here or wishful thinking there may be in for a surprise. How can one even comment if they self admittedly haven't been following the testimonies in toto save for sound bytes & dodgy articles? The credibility of the prosecutions witnesses is being soundly brought to question... Oh my goodness! I was writing exactly that just seconds ago, in Omwenga's thread, but I decided not to be so elaborate - that's is exactly what I mean by "What Uhuru and his proponents should be demanding is not a dismissal of the case, rather an above board and efficient litigation (see here.)This is precisely the reason why Uhuru should go to The Hague. Being lumped together with al Bashir who for all intents & purposes is a fugitive against international justice will not do Uhuru any good. It may even be worse for KE to have a fugitive president just when everything points towards economic takeoff. If he really believes he is innocent, & has full confidence in the new evidence that his defence team has brought to light surely it's in his best interests to present himself before the court in order to clear his name. Once again I ask, whatever happened to allowing the case(s) to proceed to their "logical conclusion(s)"? The biggest coup Uhuru can have against this kangaroo court is to take it head on & walk out a free man. I think the AU is mis-advising Uhuru when they push to have the cases deferred until Uhuruto are out of office. We can't have the ICC cases hanging like an albatross on the necks of our leaders for the next 20 years for crying out loud! www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000095412&story_title=au-urges-icc-to-drop-cases-against-leaders
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Post by b6k on Oct 13, 2013 11:44:25 GMT 3
B6K, What do you make of the way Katwa Kigen was roughed up yesterday (11th)? Part of my layman mind (viz. legal processes) tells me that Mr. President felt the horse was already dead, and hence that Katwa needed not use more time beating the still animal while members of the court yawned and thought forward into Monday. The remaining part of my layman mind tells me that Katwa deserved his time, and was too rudely treated by Mr. President. If it were to be left to me, I would have the case transferred to Judge Judy's court at this point - when one side of a whipsaw balance gets lighter, the other may deceptively appear to have gained weight. Judge Judy looks very appealing right now. Katwa Kigen is a wooden character & gave a most uninspiring defence of his client, sorry to say...
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Post by b6k on Oct 13, 2013 11:45:52 GMT 3
The one thing the Lubanga case (referred to by our chief character from Peanuts, aka Snoopy ) That is an image of my beagle, Sparky. If you have issues with me, then direct them to me. But attacking a man's dog is just plain, simple-minded nastiness. Apologies although I was making reference to your avatar not your dog as you've never mentioned you own one until now....
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Post by mank on Oct 13, 2013 20:09:04 GMT 3
B6K, What do you make of the way Katwa Kigen was roughed up yesterday (11th)? Part of my layman mind (viz. legal processes) tells me that Mr. President felt the horse was already dead, and hence that Katwa needed not use more time beating the still animal while members of the court yawned and thought forward into Monday. The remaining part of my layman mind tells me that Katwa deserved his time, and was too rudely treated by Mr. President. If it were to be left to me, I would have the case transferred to Judge Judy's court at this point - when one side of a whipsaw balance gets lighter, the other may deceptively appear to have gained weight. Judge Judy looks very appealing right now. Katwa Kigen is a wooden character & gave a most uninspiring defence of his client, sorry to say... I agree, he was rather uninspiring, but you have to agree Katwa has a difficult task on him; it is being demanded of him to prove that an allegation is not fact ... common sense would have it that the accuser has the burden to prove that the allegation is fact, and then the defense to rebut the evidence that the accuser may present. Judge Judy would definitely accord respect to this common sense. You should also be lenient toward Katwa, noting that there is nothing he would say (other than what he said about Sang's position and schedule at the radio station) that was not already said by Khan before him. It is the court's treatment of him that I found most curious. And I felt Katwa expressed his disapproval of that treatment very effectively.
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Post by b6k on Oct 14, 2013 7:43:50 GMT 3
B6K, What do you make of the way Katwa Kigen was roughed up yesterday (11th)? Part of my layman mind (viz. legal processes) tells me that Mr. President felt the horse was already dead, and hence that Katwa needed not use more time beating the still animal while members of the court yawned and thought forward into Monday. The remaining part of my layman mind tells me that Katwa deserved his time, and was too rudely treated by Mr. President. If it were to be left to me, I would have the case transferred to Judge Judy's court at this point - when one side of a whipsaw balance gets lighter, the other may deceptively appear to have gained weight. Judge Judy looks very appealing right now.... how could that be left without a rofl?. I felt Katwa Kigen wasn't fully prepared to present his case. He also found it difficult to deal with the second witness who was clearly extremely cagey when asked to answer a straight forward question. Too much training by the OTP? Time will tell. The problem for Sang may be the records reflecting a rather weak line of questioning by his counsel that didn't do his defence much good. Now with the breaking news that Uhuru's case may be deferred after all, what will be that actions (deferral) effect on Case No. 1? Will they have to freeze this one as well, or keep a stiff upper lip & try to soldier on in spite of such a monumental setback? As Ocampo's balanced (3 ODM suspects & 3 PNU suspects) takes a further hit, does it really make any sense to continue with the farcical cases now?
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Post by mank on Oct 16, 2013 19:53:27 GMT 3
B6K, What do you make of the way Katwa Kigen was roughed up yesterday (11th)? Part of my layman mind (viz. legal processes) tells me that Mr. President felt the horse was already dead, and hence that Katwa needed not use more time beating the still animal while members of the court yawned and thought forward into Monday. The remaining part of my layman mind tells me that Katwa deserved his time, and was too rudely treated by Mr. President. If it were to be left to me, I would have the case transferred to Judge Judy's court at this point - when one side of a whipsaw balance gets lighter, the other may deceptively appear to have gained weight. Judge Judy looks very appealing right now.... how could that be left without a rofl?. I felt Katwa Kigen wasn't fully prepared to present his case. He also found it difficult to deal with the second witness who was clearly extremely cagey when asked to answer a straight forward question. Too much training by the OTP? Time will tell. The problem for Sang may be the records reflecting a rather weak line of questioning by his counsel that didn't do his defence much good. Now with the breaking news that Uhuru's case may be deferred after all, what will be that actions (deferral) effect on Case No. 1? Will they have to freeze this one as well, or keep a stiff upper lip & try to soldier on in spite of such a monumental setback? As Ocampo's balanced (3 ODM suspects & 3 PNU suspects) takes a further hit, does it really make any sense to continue with the farcical cases now? B6K,Its true Katwa Kigen was not prepared for that witness. He had expressed the same to the court; I don't know whether the witness was unexpected to him, but he did wrestle with the court over his preparedness for the witness.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 23:40:51 GMT 3
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2013 Ruto alleges PNU officials’ plot to fix him By Walter Menya Deputy President William Ruto on Wednesday accused the inner core of former President Kibaki of seeking out witnesses in his case at the ICC. The plan, his lawyer said, was to fix Mr Ruto as the sponsor of the violence that erupted after the 2007/08 General Election. Defence counsel Shyamala Alagendra told the court that the plan was carried out by senior officials in the Kibaki administration, lawyers sympathetic to PNU, some of whom, he said, even offered cash and protection to witnesses who would testify against Mr Ruto. Ms Alagendra listed those in the plan as former Gichugu MP Martha Karua, who was at the time the Justice minister, Mr Mutea Iringo, then the Deputy Permanent Secretary for Internal Security and Ms Nancy Gitau, who was President Kibaki’s political affairs director. The defence said Mr Iringo oversaw a witness protection scheme, which also disbursed cash to those who would testify against Mr Ruto during the Waki Commission hearings. PNU, Ms Alagendra said, used lawyers Kamotho Waiganjo, currently a member of the Commission for the Implementation of the Constitution (CIC), Mr Njenga Mwangi, Mr Peter Maundu and Mr George Morara, who was in the Vijana na Kibaki lobby group that also included Mr Joseph Njoroge, Mr Evans Gor Semelang’o, Mr Jack Wamboka and Mr Thomas Mbewa. This group of lawyers, the defence proposed and the witness confirmed, were “associated in some way with PNU” and went to Eldoret in advance of the Waki Commission to procure witnesses who would testify against Mr Ruto. The Waki Commission was in Eldoret between August 5 and 6, 2008. “What was happening at the time was that ODM was eager to show that PNU had rigged the elections,” Ms Alagendra said. But on the other hand, she said, PNU wanted to demonstrate that ODM was behind the violence that rocked the country. “In order to demonstrate that ODM was behind the violence they put together a group of people who would assist them locate witnesses to say ODM was the cause. There was a group of people who came to Eldoret. The group was made up of PNU and government officials. PNU was trying to gather evidence that it is ODM that caused the violence,” Ms Alagendra posed to the witness, who declined the proposition. According to the defence, the lawyers and government officials who were identifying witnesses to present to the Waki Commission were assisted by former Cabinet minister Stephen Tarus, Ms Karua, Mr Abraham Limo, Mr Iringo, a Mr Bethwell Ruto and a Mr William Rono. The defence said the witnesses PNU identified were taken to a witness protection programme which was under Mr Iringo. Defence: Did you hear that the aim of some PNU officials was to blame William Ruto for the violence? Witness: Yes. Defence: Regardless of the truth, madam witness? Witness: Yes. Defence: Even though he had nothing to do with it? Witness: Yes The defence was cross-examining Witness 189 for the second day yesterday. She is the third prosecution witness since the trials of Mr Ruto and Mr Joshua arap Sang started on September 10. The defence also sought to dismantle the prosecution’s theory that it was only Kalenjin youths who were armed with bows and arrows. The defence played a video clip of Mr Ruto, former ODM treasurer Omingo Magara and Mr Chris Bichage arriving in a helicopter at Wilson Airport after they were attacked and seriously injured in Nyamarambe, Kisii. The Nyamarambe incident was dubbed a fundraising meeting which was attended by former minister and Nyaribari Chache MP Simeon Nyachae and Ford People’s Henry Obwocha who the defence said had instigated the violence meted out against the then ODM leaders. The defence said the Nyamarambe incident was a clear demonstration that not only PNU campaigners had been attacked but also ODM campaigners. It also sought to demonstrate to the court that both PNU and ODM had supporters from all the ethnic groups. According to Ms Alagendra, the Kibaki Tena lobby group was chaired by Mr Lee Karuri while other officials were Agricultural Finance Corporation boss William Kirwa, Mr John Kipkorir Too, who was in the PNU presidential elections board and coordinated campaigns in the North Rift and Mr Ken Nzioka, who was the PNU director of elections. Defence: Am I correct to say PNU was reaching out for the vote of every Kenyan? Witness: Yes. Defence: PNU wanted the Luhya, Kalenjin, Kisii, Luo votes. Am I right? Witness: Yes. Defence: ODM too wanted all the votes? Witness: Yes. Defence: That ODM wanted to portray itself as the party of all ethnicities? Witness: Yes. Defence: You will agree with me that there were other prominent Kikuyus in ODM? Witness: Yes. Defence: Am I right to say that in 2007 it wasn’t unusual for an individual to support (President) Kibaki and at the same time support Raila (Odinga)? Witness: Yes. www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Rutos-lawyer-links-Kibaki-to-ICC-case-/-/1064/2035740/-/blu258z/-/index.html
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Post by mank on Oct 24, 2013 7:34:16 GMT 3
B6K, Is the ICC Kenya situation still about Ruto and Sang? What's your sense? I think the most recent mention of either accused in these winding tales was when the damn girl asked a question for the wrong party. So what's this case really about? Is it just about rethinking the details of what happened, and trying to knit them into a memoir? That surely seems to be the only thing the "esteemed club" in da Hague is doing! The witnesses describe horrific events, no doubt, of man turned hunter of man. What's in the fabric of these maps that will finally point to Ruto or Sang? I thought it was a suspense at first, but now I think everyone has forgotten what this was about ... it was about incriminating Ruto and Sang, for Tharanu's sake! Move it, Osuji! Credit is due though, to President! He has caught up to the mindset that has created much of the "evidence." Severally he has shown that he understands that there is much rumor and here-say in it. He has clearly understood that when a witness describes something that occurred as a routine, it is not necessarily the case that the witness saw such an event occur twice, thrice and so forth, to form the alleged pattern ... just once, if at all, is often the case, then a generous extrapolation aided by "word on the street"... and there you have it, the witness evidence I think Mzee Safari was a lot more interesting for me. I am not amused that this club copy-cats mzee's story-telling style, but for the content ... "mauthui". What a waste!
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Post by mank on Oct 24, 2013 8:03:55 GMT 3
Krap! Liar, liar, pants on fire ... you deceived me! But you can lie only for a while, you see! It catches up.
Minute-marker 30,most significant ...
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Oct 24, 2013 16:21:36 GMT 3
Mank,
This thing has gone from bad to worse. It is a disaster, an embarrassment to any judicial system leave alone of international standards such as the #ICC.
Listening to the narrations in that court, one is left unsure whether to cry or laugh. Njakip has never responded to my query on how it exactly got to this and where these Makokha-types of witnesses were prochuad (to use Matsanga's slang).
If all the court wanted was to have Ruto sit in that court for the sake of it, then they have achieved their objective. But then what does that say about the court that is supposed to be the leader in matters justice?
~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by b6k on Oct 24, 2013 17:49:07 GMT 3
B6K, Is the ICC Kenya situation still about Ruto and Sang? What's your sense? I think the most recent mention of either accused in these winding tales was when the damn girl asked a question for the wrong party. So what's this case really about? Is it just about rethinking the details of what happened, and trying to knit them into a memoir? That surely seems to be the only thing the "esteemed club" in da Hague is doing! The witnesses describe horrific events, no doubt, of man turned hunter of man. What's in the fabric of these maps that will finally point to Ruto or Sang? I thought it was a suspense at first, but now I think everyone has forgotten what this was about ... it was about incriminating Ruto and Sang, for Tharanu's sake! Move it, Osuji! Credit is due though, to President! He has caught up to the mindset that has created much of the "evidence." Severally he has shown that he understands that there is much rumor and here-say in it. He has clearly understood that when a witness describes something that occurred as a routine, it is not necessarily the case that the witness saw such an event occur twice, thrice and so forth, to form the alleged pattern ... just once, if at all, is often the case, then a generous extrapolation aided by "word on the street"... and there you have it, the witness evidence I think Mzee Safari was a lot more interesting for me. I am not amused that this club copy-cats mzee's story-telling style, but for the content ... "mauthui". What a waste! Mank, I happened to catch some of the court action today for the first time in a few days. The witness was being asked what the symbolic value of all those nyundos that were prevalent at ODM rallies was. Cooper, of Ruto's defence team, suggested to the witness that it was a play on words since Raila was the proud owner of a Hummer which in Kenyan English is pronounced as hammer. To my consternation the witness agreed! Anyway, the show trials must go on. Or is it show-trials must go on because at the end of the day even the ICC must prove that it deserves its paycheck. Why should all those fat cats sit at The Hague doing nothing. At the end of the day, every organization has targets to be met & budgets to be spent...
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Post by b6k on Oct 24, 2013 17:53:13 GMT 3
Mank, This thing has gone from bad to worse. It is a disaster, an embarrassment to any judicial system leave alone of international standards such as the #ICC. Listening to the narrations in that court, one is left unsure whether to cry or laugh. Njakip has never responded to my query on how it exactly got to this and where these Makokha-types of witnesses were prochuad (to use Matsanga's slang). If all the court wanted was to have Ruto sit in that court for the sake of it, then they have achieved their objective. But then what does that say about the court that is supposed to be the leader in matters justice? ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Mwalimumkuu, I have to agree with you. International justice is going to take a major hit once these trials are completed. Judge Hans Peter Klaus will most likely be vindicated for having cast the dissenting vote at the pre-trial chamber. The OTP will have to be reconstituted if the ICC survives the Kenya Situation debacle...
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Post by b6k on Oct 24, 2013 18:12:05 GMT 3
Njakip's crack prosecution unit take a moment to consult....
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Post by mank on Oct 25, 2013 5:46:22 GMT 3
Mank, This thing has gone from bad to worse. It is a disaster, an embarrassment to any judicial system leave alone of international standards such as the #ICC. Listening to the narrations in that court, one is left unsure whether to cry or laugh. Njakip has never responded to my query on how it exactly got to this and where these Makokha-types of witnesses were prochuad (to use Matsanga's slang). If all the court wanted was to have Ruto sit in that court for the sake of it, then they have achieved their objective. But then what does that say about the court that is supposed to be the leader in matters justice? ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Mwalimumkuu, I have to agree with you. International justice is going to take a major hit once these trials are completed. Judge Hans Peter Klaus will most likely be vindicated for having cast the dissenting vote at the pre-trial chamber. The OTP will have to be reconstituted if the ICC survives the Kenya Situation debacle... Amigos, Incidentally this might be how the big house has gotten many Africans caged. I have said here about my conversation with some Rwandans as we were starting this journey. The drama is playing just as they told me it is how it plays out for our sister country ... just find someone to execute and heap the crap on him. But something is different in the current situation ... you and I are watching this tamdhilia, except for the many private sessions. It is unlikely the crap strategy can work here... that's when that house would really lose its credibility, whichever it has. I think though, Kenya needs to take some action. Anyone who is mentioned in da Hague should really be questioned. Call me naive, but I am one who does not believe that Kenya has anything to benefit, but lose, in not getting at the bottom of this nonsense. Of course someone mobilized others to kill ... it could be anyone ... even Ruto and Sang. But my rational eye needs to see it! So let's get serious litigation ... somebody tell our judiciary that anyone who has been mentioned in da Hague should be questioned ... someone has been mentioned as one person who invested his lorries in ferrying murderers to the bloody grounds.... another as the one who torched the Kiambaa church using diesel from a stalled lorry. Kenya has courts ... we surely could have those people in court tomorrow. Meanwhile I have not heard one good reason why this is about Ruto and Sang ... . Aish! And to be clear, it is not that I think Ruto is incapable ... just don't forget my rational eye .. that's who needs conviction around here.
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Post by mank on Oct 25, 2013 5:53:25 GMT 3
Njakip's crack prosecution unit take a moment to consult.... Perceptive! I think that's just about what any secrete sensors would have gotten out of that multi-tete-a-tete.
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Post by mank on Oct 25, 2013 6:18:43 GMT 3
B6K, Is the ICC Kenya situation still about Ruto and Sang? What's your sense? I think the most recent mention of either accused in these winding tales was when the damn girl asked a question for the wrong party. So what's this case really about? Is it just about rethinking the details of what happened, and trying to knit them into a memoir? That surely seems to be the only thing the "esteemed club" in da Hague is doing! The witnesses describe horrific events, no doubt, of man turned hunter of man. What's in the fabric of these maps that will finally point to Ruto or Sang? I thought it was a suspense at first, but now I think everyone has forgotten what this was about ... it was about incriminating Ruto and Sang, for Tharanu's sake! Move it, Osuji! Credit is due though, to President! He has caught up to the mindset that has created much of the "evidence." Severally he has shown that he understands that there is much rumor and here-say in it. He has clearly understood that when a witness describes something that occurred as a routine, it is not necessarily the case that the witness saw such an event occur twice, thrice and so forth, to form the alleged pattern ... just once, if at all, is often the case, then a generous extrapolation aided by "word on the street"... and there you have it, the witness evidence I think Mzee Safari was a lot more interesting for me. I am not amused that this club copy-cats mzee's story-telling style, but for the content ... "mauthui". What a waste! Mank, I happened to catch some of the court action today for the first time in a few days. The witness was being asked what the symbolic value of all those nyundos that were prevalent at ODM rallies was. Cooper, of Ruto's defence team, suggested to the witness that it was a play on words since Raila was the proud owner of a Hummer which in Kenyan English is pronounced as hammer. To my consternation the witness agreed! Anyway, the show trials must go on. Or is it show-trials must go on because at the end of the day even the ICC must prove that it deserves its paycheck. Why should all those fat cats sit at The Hague doing nothing. At the end of the day, every organization has targets to be met & budgets to be spent... 5 yrs is so long ago ... I did not "cram" everything that was said (hence the 3 crucial words that were said ... which I now cant recall ... but those are the words that really struck me ...). B6K, The fact that you have not been following this thing closely tells me that you have not kept note of where to follow it well ... yours truly is more loyal to this than anything else. I realize now that the case show is worth every ounce of pop corn I stashed into the cabinet ... I just have to reorient my expectation of the loci of suspense! Mwalimu said it well ... no one wants this show to end too early. So it must go on. For some, it is bread! For others, its a real urge to see how this ends. The bread crowd gets to decide when the cast can down the costume, and after what message. The curious ones will be plastered on the screen ... it is their curse!
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