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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 19, 2013 15:53:11 GMT 3
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 19, 2013 17:49:53 GMT 3
Please press reload/refresh. I had left out a very important chunk in the first version that I uploaded. Some text. And some PEV graphics.
OO
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Oct 19, 2013 20:43:23 GMT 3
Oloo You have jumped into the melee which is the debate in the ICC cases on the Kenyans. Meanwhile, as you peg your flag in Jukwaa, a former ICC prosecutor who is a US National, condemns Hague trials of Kenyan leaders, stating that the prosecutors have ignored political realities and created a lose-lose situation. www.theguardian.com/law/2013/oct/18/david-crane-condemns-hague-trials-kenya"A former chief prosecutor of the international criminal court has condemned its cases against Kenya's president and vice-president, warning that the indictments could damage the fledgling international justice system. David Crane, the US lawyer who built the case against Liberia's former president Charles Taylor, said his successors at The Hague had ignored political realities in pursuing the Kenyan prosecution, which he said "could be the beginning of a long slide into irrelevance for international law". "I would never have indicted or gotten involved in justice for the Kenyan tragedy," said Crane, a former chief prosecutor of the special court for Sierra Leone, a precursor to the ICC. "It's placed them in a situation where they are damned if they do or damned if they don't. "It's become a lose-lose situation," said Crane. Crane said the cases he built during three years of investigations in west Africa from 2002-05 had taken into account local politics as well as the law. "Politics is the bright red thread of modern international law, a successful prosecution must factor in the international stage." After ad hoc tribunals dealt with the fallout from civil wars in the Balkans and west Africa, as well as the genocide in Rwanda, the ICC got a permanent home in the Netherlands and issued its first arrest warrants in 2005. Under the Argentinian lawyer Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the prosecutor's office pursued high-profile African leaders, including Sudan's Omar al-Bashir – who has ignored the warrant – and a number of alleged warlords in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Crane said Moreno-Ocampo had a "political tin ear" and had been overly ambitious in his indictments. Crane said the ICC should have used the threat of its intervention to nudge for reform rather than launching prosecutions that the Kenyan elite would never support. "It's a question of some justice versus no justice," he said. "If it's perceived that Kenyatta and Ruto have won then we're thrown back to the pre-Taylor era in Africa." |
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Post by merkeju on Oct 19, 2013 21:03:19 GMT 3
Oloo You have jumped into the melee which is the debate in the ICC cases on the Kenyans. Meanwhile, as you peg your flag in Jukwaa, a former ICC prosecutor who is a US National, condemns Hague trials of Kenyan leaders, stating that the prosecutors have ignored political realities and created a lose-lose situation. www.theguardian.com/law/2013/oct/18/david-crane-condemns-hague-trials-kenya"A former chief prosecutor of the international criminal court has condemned its cases against Kenya's president and vice-president, warning that the indictments could damage the fledgling international justice system. David Crane, the US lawyer who built the case against Liberia's former president Charles Taylor, said his successors at The Hague had ignored political realities in pursuing the Kenyan prosecution, which he said "could be the beginning of a long slide into irrelevance for international law". "I would never have indicted or gotten involved in justice for the Kenyan tragedy," said Crane, a former chief prosecutor of the special court for Sierra Leone, a precursor to the ICC. "It's placed them in a situation where they are damned if they do or damned if they don't. "It's become a lose-lose situation," said Crane. Crane said the cases he built during three years of investigations in west Africa from 2002-05 had taken into account local politics as well as the law. "Politics is the bright red thread of modern international law, a successful prosecution must factor in the international stage." After ad hoc tribunals dealt with the fallout from civil wars in the Balkans and west Africa, as well as the genocide in Rwanda, the ICC got a permanent home in the Netherlands and issued its first arrest warrants in 2005. Under the Argentinian lawyer Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the prosecutor's office pursued high-profile African leaders, including Sudan's Omar al-Bashir – who has ignored the warrant – and a number of alleged warlords in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Crane said Moreno-Ocampo had a "political tin ear" and had been overly ambitious in his indictments. Crane said the ICC should have used the threat of its intervention to nudge for reform rather than launching prosecutions that the Kenyan elite would never support. "It's a question of some justice versus no justice," he said. "If it's perceived that Kenyatta and Ruto have won then we're thrown back to the pre-Taylor era in Africa." Another American against ICC not surprising, i wonder how he could have prosecuted crimes against humanity when his own country was all over the world killing people, in Irag thousand have died and continue dying because of the crimes committed by American "I would never have indicted or gotten involved in justice for the Kenyan tragedy," That summarize everything, why is this man even relevant, as Kenyans we should not give relevance to those who care less about the justice for Kenyans, look at the justice against the blacks in America and you will realize law is not applied equally to all. |
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Post by KOLONEL BRISK on Oct 20, 2013 2:38:27 GMT 3
We have only had 2 Prosecutors for ICC since it's inception 2003. Mr. Luis Moreno-Ocampo was the first Prosecutor of the ICC from 16 June 2003 until 15 June 2012. Ms. Fatou Bensouda of Gambia was elected by consensus as Prosecutor of the ICC on 12 December 2011. Ms. Fatou Bensouda was sworn-in on 15 June 2012, in an open session of the Court, presided by Judge Sang-Hyun Song. So this man who claims to have been one is he a Prosecutor wannabe? Just because someone works in the File room does not imply he is the holder of Office. ICC is not the same court as the one that did similar work in the past. David M. Crane is an American who was the Chief Prosecutor of the Special Court for Sierra Leone (SCSL) from April 2002 until July 15, 2005. During his tenure, he indicted, among others, the then-President of Liberia, Charles Taylor. Crane was replaced as chief prosecutor by his deputy Desmond de Silva. On April 26, 2012, the SCSL, sitting in The Hague, convicted Taylor on various charges.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecutor_of_the_International_Criminal_Court
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Post by michael on Oct 21, 2013 12:14:17 GMT 3
Eish! Bwana Oloo you were really fired up! Where are the jubilee trolls to dissect and defend against this diatribe?
P.S
Good read!
Discuss!
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Post by kamalet on Oct 21, 2013 13:41:49 GMT 3
Oloo
Not sure what to say, but I think you are losing the plot if this is what you end up writing! Considering your very wrong view of what was happening right outside your doorstep in Siaya and which you got completely wrong, I would have thought you would try a bit of caution before going on the misplaced offensive! When you call yourself a democrat and then go ahead to question the sanity of Kenyans in electing Uhuru and Ruto, it begs the question what you point is! But it is not lost on many that you actually were rooting for the loosing side.
As one comment ended "It is this kind of arrogant attitude that that has entirely diminished your so called 'sober analysis'. Nice try but not quite yet".
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 21, 2013 17:51:19 GMT 3
Kamale:
You never commented even ONCE on my many blog pieces on the Siaya by election.
So stop introducing that as a CONVENIENT RED HERRING.
Incidentally, MERELY being DECLARED the "winner" of an election, as Uhuru was, DOES NOT MEAN that you actually won it, OK?
Comment on the CONTENT of THIS digital essay.
By the way, I have already disposed of the barking at my essay on Kenya Democracy Project blog that you were alluding in your rejoinder above. Take a look.
Onyango Oloo
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Post by kamalet on Oct 21, 2013 18:19:57 GMT 3
Kamale:You never commented even ONCE on my many blog pieces on the Siaya by election. So stop introducing that as a CONVENIENT RED HERRING. Incidentally, MERELY being DECLARED the "winner" of an election, as Uhuru was, DOES NOT MEAN that you actually won it, OK? Comment on the CONTENT of THIS digital essay. By the way, I have already disposed of the barking at my essay on Kenya Democracy Project blog that you were alluding in your rejoinder above. Take a look.
Onyango Oloo Oloo I would rarely comment on matters that do not concern me. Siaya governor's by-election was something local to you as say a vote in Kabete would be for me. But that does not mean i did not read your altercations with the likes of Phil on your various Siaya postings. The point is you were wrong, and I think on this one you are still wrong.....trend? Kamale |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 21, 2013 19:19:38 GMT 3
Kamale:
You still STUBBORNLY REFUSE to engage with the actual CONTENTS of my digital essay.
So I will consider that as a RESPONSE in itself and leave it there.
Anywayz, for all the other readers and browsers, I have TWO WORDS for you:
REFRESH. RE-READ.
More links, more graphics, more revisions and updates.
Onyango Oloo
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veri
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by veri on Oct 22, 2013 4:57:00 GMT 3
This post has been a voice for so many. Thank you.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Oct 22, 2013 11:00:19 GMT 3
OlooYour essay fails to appreciate the duplicity of the ICC as a legal entity. I will respond to it in piecemeal. In my first take, I will narrow on Judge Ozaki, whom you call Really? The facts are that Mrs Ozaki is one of two Japanese judges, one of whom passed away, appointed to the ICC by her country, not on merit on her achievement as a judge. The Rome statute provides for two categories of judges: those with experience in criminal proceedings as judges and prosecutors (list A) and those without (list B). Overlooking the experiences or lack of it, of list B judges, including Ozaki, will not help the advancement of the ICC. Judge Ozaki is an excellent example of a list B judge. She has never worked as a judge before her appointment as a Judge at the ICC. She was a civil servant working for the Japanese government. Judge Ozaki was appointed because Japan was at the time, taking advantage of its position as the largest contributor to the ICC budget to get a seat on the ICC bench. Japan remains the largest contributor, in the absence of three permanent members of the UN Security Council – the US, Russia and China. Now, tell me, having known the facts, as stated, would you still hold the wrong views about Ozaki? She is not a trained judge. She is certainly not independent, nor is she impartial. Do you think she will deliver justice, as you asserted?
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Post by kamalet on Oct 22, 2013 12:17:06 GMT 3
Oloo
I appreciate you asking me to debate the contents. Did you notice that I commented on the issue of how wrong you were with regard to the 'insane kenyans that voted for the duo'?
Like Sadik suggests, unless you would like us to go the factual errors in your digital, these are many and one then wonders how to debate contents that are wrong.
Kamale
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Post by danielwaweru on Oct 22, 2013 12:22:01 GMT 3
Kamale:You never commented even ONCE on my many blog pieces on the Siaya by election. So stop introducing that as a CONVENIENT RED HERRING. Incidentally, MERELY being DECLARED the "winner" of an election, as Uhuru was, DOES NOT MEAN that you actually won it, OK? Comment on the CONTENT of THIS digital essay. By the way, I have already disposed of the barking at my essay on Kenya Democracy Project blog that you were alluding in your rejoinder above. Take a look.
Onyango Oloo
I enjoyed it, but there wasn't very much to comment on there.
I was rereading the case materials, and came across Judge Tarfusser's minority opinion, in which he argued that the crimes with which Uhuru, Ruto and the other defendants had been charged did not amount to crimes against humanity, for the purposes of the Rome Statute. The cases, that is, should not be at the court. Other minority opinions have said extremely unflattering things about the proceedings. It strikes me as slightly odd that you are willing to set great store by the minority opinion in this instance, while wholly ignoring the minority opinions which conflict with your expressed preferences. (And you can't argue that the reason to pay attention to this minority judgement is that it is better reasoned than the majority judgement, since Tarfusser's was.) |
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 25, 2013 16:08:01 GMT 3
The Appeals Chamber agrees with Judge Ozaki. Also, Oloo never claimed she was a trained judge; what's more, appointments to many courts all over the world do not require training as a judge. And there is no reason to believe she is any less independent or impartial than other judges at the court.
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