|
|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 13, 2014 9:05:36 GMT 3
|
|
|
|
Post by abdulmote on Apr 13, 2014 15:37:44 GMT 3
I think killing preachers like the late Rogo and Makaburi is one thing: their propagation supporting Alshabbaab and categorizing any none muslims as a legitimate target, etc., would have made many perhaps to shrug off such murderous acts with too much of a fuss. But killing someone like Al Amin Kimathi, whose sole dedication is to fight for human rights, especially Kenyans' per se, and is not one of the perceived 'irrational extremists' will be completely something else.
Fair enough, the government has got away with its unlawful assassinations perhaps for too long now. But it must not overestimate or misinterpret the 'tolerance' so far, coming from muslims as a section of law abiding kenyan society and take their state-sanctioned licence-to-kill innocent-others for granted. Besides, such behaviour will only help to escalate fertilization of the seeds of anarchy already planted in our kenyan soil.
|
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Apr 19, 2014 7:51:10 GMT 3
This Otsieno Namwaya cannot be a very clever person. He was doing what would be a very noble thing (if believable) trying to find out the conditions of Kenyans arrested at the Pangani Police station. The station let him go about the cells (still struggling to believe this story)to view and document the sanitary status of the cells and how the police were brutally treating Kenyans, then when he seems to get into the confidence of one of the ATPU officers, he gets the scoop of the life and decides to tell the whole world! How easy would it have been to just inform Al Amin what the ATPU officer told him and just leave it at that?
Whilst his story is not believable - and there are several glaring holes - this fellow will not get any other chance at the Pangani Police station or any other station to do what is essentially a noble thing.
Ndugu Abdulmote suggests that Al Amin is an innocent crusader for human rights (Muslim?)and should not be on the radar of ATPU. I share the same view only because Al Amin has never been charged of any terrorism related offence.I do know that he has previously been detained in Uganda for terror related charges and was arrested there at the behest of the ATPU giving the Ugandan authorities information leading to that arrest. But even if he is on the radar, he cannot be in the same class of Rogo or Makaburi who had pubicly advocated for 'jihad' and I highly doubt our "inteligence" is that stupid not to know!
|
|
|
|
Post by podp on Apr 19, 2014 20:31:02 GMT 3
Ndugu Abdulmote suggests that Al Amin is an innocent crusader for human rights (Muslim?)and should not be on the radar of ATPU. I share the same view only because Al Amin has never been charged of any terrorism related offence.I do know that he has previously been detained in Uganda for terror related charges and was arrested there at the behest of the ATPU giving the Ugandan authorities information leading to that arrest. But even if he is on the radar, he cannot be in the same class of Rogo or Makaburi who had pubicly advocated for 'jihad' and I highly doubt our "inteligence" is that stupid not to know! Mismanagement of counter-terrorism — like the current swoop on the Somali — makes us more vulnerable and less safe. For with a police force that sees the Somali as ATMs, will not a real terrorist or sympathiser just pay the bribes to get out of the “dragnet?” It is only those too poor to pay who end up in these dragnets, while the real terrorists get away to continue with their nefarious plans. There are many ways of dealing with terrorism, but the idea that you fight fire with fire is foolhardy: You fight fire with water! Demonising an entire community is foolish.... Here in Kenya, we must first separate insecurity and counter-terrorism from refugee and immigration matters. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, there was a surge in violent crime in Kenya. It was blamed on Ugandan refugees and many were deported after swoops. And after 1986, most Ugandans went back when Yoweri Museveni took power. But crime rates in Kenya did not fall after the Ugandans left, and neither did crime rates rise in Uganda. Importantly, our police must end their culture of corruption: We need an urgent cultural transformation from the top-down, that prioritises accountability and transparency, and which enables good officers to report the crooks who have the run of the force. Adding more cops is throwing good money after bad. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-Only-a-fool-fights-a-fire-with-more-fire-and-not-water-/-/440808/2284820/-/iu2f0g/-/index.html |
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Apr 20, 2014 9:22:48 GMT 3
Ndugu Abdulmote suggests that Al Amin is an innocent crusader for human rights (Muslim?)and should not be on the radar of ATPU. I share the same view only because Al Amin has never been charged of any terrorism related offence.I do know that he has previously been detained in Uganda for terror related charges and was arrested there at the behest of the ATPU giving the Ugandan authorities information leading to that arrest. But even if he is on the radar, he cannot be in the same class of Rogo or Makaburi who had pubicly advocated for 'jihad' and I highly doubt our "inteligence" is that stupid not to know! Mismanagement of counter-terrorism — like the current swoop on the Somali — makes us more vulnerable and less safe. For with a police force that sees the Somali as ATMs, will not a real terrorist or sympathiser just pay the bribes to get out of the “dragnet?” It is only those too poor to pay who end up in these dragnets, while the real terrorists get away to continue with their nefarious plans. There are many ways of dealing with terrorism, but the idea that you fight fire with fire is foolhardy: You fight fire with water! Demonising an entire community is foolish.... Here in Kenya, we must first separate insecurity and counter-terrorism from refugee and immigration matters. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, there was a surge in violent crime in Kenya. It was blamed on Ugandan refugees and many were deported after swoops. And after 1986, most Ugandans went back when Yoweri Museveni took power. But crime rates in Kenya did not fall after the Ugandans left, and neither did crime rates rise in Uganda. Importantly, our police must end their culture of corruption: We need an urgent cultural transformation from the top-down, that prioritises accountability and transparency, and which enables good officers to report the crooks who have the run of the force. Adding more cops is throwing good money after bad. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-Only-a-fool-fights-a-fire-with-more-fire-and-not-water-/-/440808/2284820/-/iu2f0g/-/index.htmlIf we had a basis of confirming that the terror attacks against innocent Kenyans did not come from AlShabaab, targetting people of somali origin would be faulty. When the government had to deal with the Mungiki menace, they did not go for Maasai or Luo youths, they went for the source, the gikuyu youths. It is inevitable with the concentration of alshabaab in Somalia that the suspects will be people of Somali origin. It would appear that to remain politically correct there are those who would prefer that the government does nothing because the fear of accusations of ethnic profiling exceeds that of protecting life. There are even some nutters who would like us to blame the corruption in government for the situation we are in today - but that for all intents and purposes is water under the bridge and the government must tackle both problems. Bottom line is that politically the government will go for the action that protects human life at the expense of appeasement. So if one is a genuine and patriotic Kenyan, then they will support the actions to get rid from the country those somalis that are making it difficult for the rest of Kenyans. Sadly it is the same nutters I heard complaining of 'extra-judicial' action on gikuyu youths that were murdering others whilst the mainstream gikuyu welcomed the action. Today Mungiki is not as pronounced as was the case then. I am sure if we rid ourselves of people who cannot speak english or swahili and have ID cards issued in 2010 when they are 25 years old, this will be a more peaceful country. |
|
|
|
Post by podp on Apr 20, 2014 21:50:46 GMT 3
If we had a basis of confirming that the terror attacks against innocent Kenyans did not come from AlShabaab, targetting people of somali origin would be faulty. When the government had to deal with the Mungiki menace, they did not go for Maasai or Luo youths, they went for the source, the gikuyu youths. It is inevitable with the concentration of alshabaab in Somalia that the suspects will be people of Somali origin.It would appear that to remain politically correct there are those who would prefer that the government does nothing because the fear of accusations of ethnic profiling exceeds that of protecting life. There are even some nutters who would like us to blame the corruption in government for the situation we are in today - but that for all intents and purposes is water under the bridge and the government must tackle both problems. Bottom line is that politically the government will go for the action that protects human life at the expense of appeasement. So if one is a genuine and patriotic Kenyan, then they will support the actions to get rid from the country those somalis that are making it difficult for the rest of Kenyans. Sadly it is the same nutters I heard complaining of 'extra-judicial' action on gikuyu youths that were murdering others whilst the mainstream gikuyu welcomed the action. Today Mungiki is not as pronounced as was the case then. I am sure if we rid ourselves of people who cannot speak english or swahili and have ID cards issued in 2010 when they are 25 years old, this will be a more peaceful country. 1st red high light when GoK went for Mungiki they did not round up all Kikuyus in Kiambu, Muranga etc. and later separate those with two underwears and those without! and the equating of Kikuyu and Mungiki was not as it is for the case of al shabaab and Somalis. we must confess that with your kind of reasoning you have very little history of democracy. people of the Kenya and our region, particularly given our ethnic chauvinism and sectarian differences have near nil experience that would prepare us for the freedoms and responsibilities that must come with self-rule and liberal democracy as expounded in our current Constitution. In 2010, the Rand Corporation reviewed the findings of its own 2008 study of 648 terrorist groups that existed around the world between 1968 and 2006. It concluded that of those groups, 43% were absorbed quietly back into the environments in which they had been active, 40% were defeated by police and intelligence operations and 7% by military confrontation. www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG741-1.pdflet us learn from those who were there before us, and USA being more open have many lessons for us. we need a timetable on when to get out of Somali and let the Somalis sort their own house. having our KDF there when history of dealing with terrorism shows less than 10% success comes from raw power is not smart. 2nd red high light The Bush Administration labeled everyone it didn’t like a “terrorist”, never taking the time to differentiate between terrorism and insurgency. That was our first mistake.... Our second mistake was in deciding to “solve” our terrorism problems with the military might. In employing a military response, we were using an asset that had been designed in the Second World War to sweep across northern Europe in an attack on Germany and then further fine-tuned during the Cold War to sweep across Germany and Poland to defeat the USSR. How we figured that was an appropriate tool for dealing with the new terrorism is hard to understand..... If we misidentify out of carelessness, stupidity or even willfulness, as may very well have been the case in the past, we will likely employ the wrong techniques against the troublemaker, whatever he really is..... When we attack terrorism with our military establishment, as we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan after 2003, terrorism morphs into insurgency. That insurgency then demands our involvement in the export of democracy and nation building, all of which are matters at which we are demonstrable failures. www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/2011/0104/oped/op_smith_counterins.htmlso in short killing Makaburi was damn unwise or to borrow your language stupid. it would have been cleverer to use the hate speech laws effective in ensuring our last election were peaceful to get him behind bars using our own courts and prison system. this Al-Amin Kimathi if there is hate speech charges put him in Kamiti through our court system! |
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Apr 20, 2014 23:16:02 GMT 3
Podp
Unfortunately your use of the US as the basis of measuring success or failure is rather deluded. Yes the US with all its might and TV stations landing on the beaches of Somalia and failed miserably. The somalis were nothing more than a bunch of savages that had to be abandoned to sort themselves out and that is I believe you are suggesting. But what was the result of this time allowed for the somalis to sort themselves out? Can you imagine for only a moment the squalor the 500,000 somali refugees live in at the Dabaab camp? Do you have an idea the cost to the country hosting these guys? Do you actually believe that they do not want to go back to their country? You sure are funny.
So yes the Sonmalis are not terrorists as you woudl believe they are being branded. Neither are Muslims terrorists. It just happens that the terrorists are of Somali origin and who happen to be muslims. It is you that is wrong in stereotyping a community as such! The government has been very clear that it is arresting illegal aliens who are believed to be behind the insecurity in the country.
|
|
|
|
Post by podp on Apr 20, 2014 23:48:11 GMT 3
Podp Unfortunately your use of the US as the basis of measuring success or failure is rather deluded. Yes the US with all its might and TV stations landing on the beaches of Somalia and failed miserably. The somalis were nothing more than a bunch of savages that had to be abandoned to sort themselves out and that is I believe you are suggesting. But what was the result of this time allowed for the somalis to sort themselves out? Can you imagine for only a moment the squalor the 500,000 somali refugees live in at the Dabaab camp? Do you have an idea the cost to the country hosting these guys? Do you actually believe that they do not want to go back to their country? You sure are funny. So yes the Sonmalis are not terrorists as you woudl believe they are being branded. Neither are Muslims terrorists. It just happens that the terrorists are of Somali origin and who happen to be muslims. It is you that is wrong in stereotyping a community as such! The government has been very clear that it is arresting illegal aliens who are believed to be behind the insecurity in the country. this thread is about 'who wants to kill Al Amin Kimathi' and all I did was show you an example of a State that has ability to see its folly, attempt to correct it and move on. so we want to stay in Somali as an occupation (the way Israelis are in Palestinian lands) or as civilized people taking 'ustaarabu' to the shennzi Somalis or as 'stabilizing force' when we can cover our backs or.....? make me see what we are gaining by being in Somali and having no exit strategy. for as long as the likes of CoS Karangi, sycophant Aden Duale etc. are doing business in war torn Somali, when statistics show it is police work that deals successfully with terrorism and not military are you surprised with what is happening? or do you have available studies to show the success of KDF in keeping Somalis in Somali and not have them in Daadab, Eastleigh and other places in Kenya? which army on earth has done nation building in another country? do you have explanations why despite having KDF in Somali we still have immigration and police plus attendant security operatives not able to explain how those being deported ended up in Kenya? who and which State organs are responsible for commission and omission of errors that resulted in Somalis not supposed to be in Kenya being flushed out in Eastleigh? and what is being done to punish those sleeping on the job rather than demonize whole Somali community and the Islamic religion? are there any positive gains we can state after killing Rogo....Makaburi....in the past and maybe Al Amin Kimathiin future? if Al Amin Kimathi is suspected let us use our courts to deal with him not the Rogo, Makaburi etc. route. we are not reaping a good harvest from the deaths of Rogo, Makaburi etc. and neither will we improve the situation with Al Amin Kimathi being killed the same way. |
|
