Orengo: Interview with the "Leader" weekly paper

[Onyango Oloo]

Carried in the Leader (August 17-23, 2007 Issue, p.4)




Q: Has the water finally settled with the official split of the ODM?

A: As we approach October and thereafter, we are going to witness a frenzied campaign period with the country going into an election fever.


Q: So you see more alliances taking shape in the coming weeks?

A: Actually, this election will be about alliances. It will not be about parties or ideologies. At any rate, the two major political
formations in the country are not ideological vehicles. In the coming months we will see politicians jumping from party to party just to get votes. However, win or lose, we need to develop parties that will eventually be characterised by what they stand for and not who their leaders are. Pluralism is not an end in itself and at some point, Kenyans will have to find their level in politics by finding a way to use pluralism to enhance democracy, but this will take time. We now need to deal with the question of dethroning political parties from ethnic bases.

Q: So you don't see an end to leadership squabbles in ODM now that the main rivals, Kalonzo Musyoka and Raila Odinga, have parted ways?

A: ODM is a mass movement and it is not strange to have such wrangles. It has broad objectives and of necessity you have on board all sorts of people including opportunists. I think the disagreements are healthy but they may become counter productive if they go on for too long, as it happened with the original Ford. However, in the coming month, a clear roadmap should emerge depending on who has control of the main splinter group, though it would have been preferable they stayed together. However, despite the split, you cannot dismiss anything in a political process. Nobody believed something like Narc could come into being in the little time it did in 2002.

Q: What party are you going to stand on and must you toe Raila's line to re-enter active politics?

A: I am still in SDP but as I said earlier, people have to enter into coalitions and people do not want to be excluded from the mainstream. People from Luo Nyanza support Raila Odinga for a reason but there have been instances where individuals have made it to Parliament even after going against the grain. Therefore, I do not agree that it is impossible to win a seat if you are not on his side. The question one should ask themselves however is why he is enjoying that support, which has gone beyond the regional or Nyanza borders. Perhaps it is because of his democratic credentials that were exemplified by walking away from both Presidents Moi and Kibaki.

Q: Do you think people like Foreign Affairs minister Raphael Tuju can make it outside Raila's chosen vehicle?

A: I am not saying he will not make it but there is a bigger question that must be addressed before one chooses what vehicle to travel in. As I said, people do not want to be excluded.

Q: Have you made peace with Raila?

A: We have only differed on issues of strategy and tactics, which may have come out in more antagonistic terms than they were.
Nevertheless, while there could be justification for compromise, from my perspective, I felt, it was not easy to make such compromises.
An example is when Raila chose to work with Moi in government; something I felt could not herald any reforms. However, Raila thought he could use this as a Trojan horse and somehow he caused a stir from within Kanu. One could be right but if you go against the multitude, you might not get to the destination - you have to keep in step.


Q: You have been a very active and popular practicing lawyer - why do you want to go back to active politics?

A: At times, you feel there are things you want to do and these can only be done by getting involved in the political process. These include using Parliament to bring transformation in the political arena, Judiciary and the constitutional debate. I would also like to see national resources properly utilised through Parliament legally addressing the existing inequalities. The floor of the House is a great arena for pressing for change as long as you have people who are driven by commitment to build that nation and to create a new Kenya. There have been people who have in the past though in minority, have made a difference in Parliament. These include the late Jean-Marie Seroney, George Anyona and JM Kariuki. Were it not for JM, there would not be private members motions in Parliament today. I may not change the world when I get there, but I believe I can make a contribution that can make a difference through strengthening parliament as an institution. We need to de-construct the Moi State, which existed more than four years since Narc took over, by removing oppressive tools like the Provincial Administration that continues to be applied today.


Q: What are your chances of getting back to Parliament?

A: I have a very fair chance. The first time I contested the Ugenya seat I had just been out of college, but ran against a minister who was quite popular and people in the constituency have come to the realisation that I was not wrong when I kept out of the mainstream in the last elections. Nobody is throwing mud at me for taking the principled stand I took in 2002, as at times it is better to be right and lose than to be wrong and win. In addition, do not forget that even in the current Parliament there are MPs who got are there courtesy of small parties outside Kanu and Narc.

Q: Have you given up your presidential ambitions?

A: For me it, contesting the presidency was a platform to be exploited and the question is whether it was effectively used.
I was trying to show Kenyans that there was a different way of doing things - which the answer did not lie in Narc or Kanu.

I still harbour the ambition to build a strong political party for effective democrats who would be driven by ideologies and I am totally opposed to parties where "wolves pretend to be sheep.

Q: How do you rate presidential hopefuls Raila Odinga, Kalonzo Musyoka and Mwai Kibaki?

A: The agenda for reform must be highest on the minds of Kenyans. The country needs a reformer and a reformist movement for us to achieve an effective political transformation.


Q: Of what value would Charity Ngilu be to Raila's ODM?

A: You cannot underrate Charity Ngilu as she has fought and risen from the trenches. She played a very critical role in the formation of Narc and rose to be a cabinet minister and certainly, she has a constituency.

Q: Do you believe Raila when he says he will be a one-term president in the new power sharing line up?

A: Unlike the case of the African statesman, Nelson Mandela, in the Kenyan context, there has to be a law in place indicating that one is a transitional president serving a single term.

Q: How do you rate the Ninth Parliament?

A: This Parliament has been a big disappointment to all. It has been a very selfish Parliament that remained unconcerned to its national and patriotic duties. It is a Parliament that was decisively elected and for the first time since independence, the country elected a new president and parliament from another party other than Kanu. It was given the mandate to bring about a new constitutional order, but it has wasted the chance and it will take a long time to create a similar situation.



PS:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Orengo

The "other" James Orengo:

www.bcm.edu/pathology/labs/cooper/people/jorengo.htm

[politicalmaniac]

I like this guy
Hope he gets in Parliament via a cosmopolitan constituency.
There was a time he was rumoured to be targetting Kamkunji

[gakungu]

Miguna,

I still maintain that it is not Orengo to join ODM but it is R team to relentlessly woo him into ODM. This is an asset you could ignore at your own peril. By the way, though I support R for presidency I still believe that if we cannot win Orengo to our side we can easily lose the reform as our key election platform. His reform crusade credentials is legendary.


Is it true that Ochuodho is also joining ODM?

[mzee]

Gakungu,
I must also add my voice here. Its important to find a middle ground to enable people like Orengo to join ODM. I dont know how that can be done, but as you mentioned above, its really crucial. Hard line stand will not take ODM anywhere (though I have not heard any official ODM policy on this matter). At the same acting in such a way as to create another KM situation is even worse.

[adongo23456]

Gakungu & PM

Orengo's move to ODM is pretty timely. I am always nervous with the politics of who needs who more. Everybody needs the other. Orengo brings a body of work and commitment to social justice in the nation and a record that speaks for itself. My thinking is that Orengo has joined with a team that includes the likes of Nowrojee and others.

I wouldn't characterize this as Orengo joining Raila but rather the SDP bringing their weapons to join hands with ODM to help the country march forward in pursuit of greater democracy and social justice. James Orengo sharing a platform with Raila Odinga is something to behold but we have bigger items in this agenda.

The reform agenda is stalled as we speak. Kibaki has refused to yield to the demands for minimum reforms, choosing instead to play games and buy time before he can dissolve parliament and try his luck at the polls. Bringing in the SDP crew at this stage gives the ODM some veteran help in mobilizing the civil society contingent for the last push. It is all good.

The other issue and I remember we raised the same questions in 2002 with people like Raila and others is for the mainstream, at that time Narc and now ODM, is for them to support those from civil society background and others with known reform credentials to be their candidates in some constituencies. It is usually much easier for an M.P who defects say from kanu or in this case narc K to be immediately embraced and accorded right of place which could lead to nomination, but that much harder for our friends from the smaller reform groups to get the nod.

It is not surprising that Mwandawiro for example had to sojourn to Ford People to get a shot. While we are not asking for special favours for anybody, I think it would be important for ODM to reach out, recruit and/or otherwise offer support to the Oduor Ong'wens, the Wanyiri Kihoros, the Kibitsu Kabatesis, the Ng'anga Thiong'os, the Migunas the Betty Murungis among others if they so wish to contest seats for the party.

I agree with Gakungu that the ODM has to invest its time and energy to build a strong working relationship with the civil society contingent. In fact I thought the joint effort the ODM and the civil society groups was very instrumental in reviving the minimum reform agenda.

Adongo

[gakungu]

mzee 1,

The beauty of it is that it is not detractor of R or ODM who are saying this. It genuine supporters who beleive this will be a big catch. Orengo has been in this struggle and he need to be accomodated somehow.

So let us not tire to urge Miguna to seriously consider this point as he responds to this.

It is very important to remain flexible.

[politicalmaniac]

Orengo is free and very welcome to ODM
But how is that going to be done if he insists he is an SDP member?

What does ODM do if Orengo runs as an SDP candidate?
And whats preventing Orengo to espouse 'SDP' ideology while in ODM?
He can contribute mightly to the debate and help significantly chart out the ODM agenda and position papers

[mzee]

Gakungu,
Orengo is a major catch because he is one of those few politicians in Kenya who trancends boundary. If he were just another luo politician, perhaps it could not have mattered but he has gone beyond that kind of tag.

The upende usipende kind of attitude must cease in ODM or any other party for that matter. I know that where there is a will there is a way.

But why are we debating this if Orengo has already joined ODM as stated by AO and MM (in another thread)

[miguna]

gakungu said:

Miguna,

I still maintain that it is not Orengo to join ODM but it is R team to relentlessly woo him into ODM. This is an asset you could ignore at your own peril. By the way, though I support R for presidency I still believe that if we cannot win Orengo to our side we can easily lose the reform as our key election platform. His reform crusade credentials is legendary.

Is it true that Ochuodho is also joining ODM?

Gakungu,

I agree that Orengo and other reformers are an asset. However, the reform/change agenda will not die merely because one or a few individuals decide to go it alone.

No one is indispensable!

We live in a democracy. People should be free to choose what parties they form or belong to. That's Orengo's choice as it is everyone else's...

For me, as long as the people of Kenya are with the Authentic ODM, I don't have any worries at all. We should be working with the people and getting INSTRUCTIONS from them. The politics of long rangers is gone and buried.

Miguna
=============================================

[politicalmaniac]

miguna said:

We should be working with the people and getting INSTRUCTIONS from them. The politics of long rangers is gone and buried.

Miguna

[/b][/color]
=============================================[/quote]

Yeah just ask the little twit ;D

[job]

FROM THE HORSE'S OWN MOUTH,..........

Q: What party are you (Orengo) going to stand on and must you toe Raila's line to re-enter active politics?

A: I (Orengo) am still in SDP but as I said earlier, people have to enter into coalitions and people do not want to be excluded from the mainstream.

MEANING;

ISSUE NOT RESOLVED YET. A REALLY TRICKY SITUATION DEPENDING ON HOW YOU LOOK AT IT.

AS OF NOW HOWEVER,.....

ORENGO IS STILL IN SDP.
ORENGO WANTS TO ENTER INTO -A COALITION WITH ODM & NOT; DECAMP OR DISBAND SDP & ENTER THE ODM PARTY AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

FAIR DEBATE.

PROBABLY A MIDDLE-GROUND SOLUTION WILL BE FOUND DEPENDING ON UNIQUE CIRCUMSTANCES OF EACH PARTY.

BUT MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION - AFTER THE DEBACLE IN ODM-K,.....ODM SHOULD PREFER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, TO STAY AS A PARTY, WOOING INDIVIDUAL MEMBERSHIP,....TO AVOID THE ARRAY OF SOMETIMES UNREASONABLE DEMANDS BY CONSTITUENT PARTIES.

[miguna]

Job & P/M:

I agree. Orengo can join as an individual. That door has been wide open since 2005.

There will be no "coalition" constructed around a few people in SDP and the Authentic ODM. The sooner Orengo realizes that, the better.

It is time we, Authentic ODM members, put our feet down firmly on this issue. Making hard decisions is central to leadership.

Let's not waste time with a few individuals who insist on being recognized as parties. They are individuals. Their so-called parties are shells. That's an inescapable FACT. We refuse to dance around it...

The main thing is the Kenyan agenda. If anyone is strongly committed to this, then all those mumbo jumbo about coalitions that Orengo speaks of become irrelevant.

A lot of people confuse eloquence with leadership. The two are not the same. Eloquence is certainly an essential quality any leader should have. But it is not always that the most eloquent is the best or more effective leader. Orengo is a classic case study!

Miguna
===========================================================

[politicalmaniac]

MM
Orengo is eloquent yes.
But surely he has leadership abilities and potential.
Perhaps his judgement is occasionally screwed up, but I feel he is an asset that ODM can use, BUT on ODM terms.
NO ONE is greater than the movement.
Let him make his poltical bed
He is the one who will lie on it.

He can make an Excellent AG, but he may also be a thorn on Rs side!

[gakungu]

MM,

I think I could see your point. corporate membership might put ODM into serious wrangles at this critical moment.

Let us pressurise Orengo instead, to join the peoples movement individually.

But we must do it with a lot of respect. Orengo has considerable national appeal and I wish he could join in soonest. His support is so crucial and cannot be ignored.

[osirisisgod]

The real conundrum is that anyone with any leftist credentials will find it hard to find a place inside ODM-K. ODM or ODM-R. Rhetoric aside, ODM and all the permutations of it, is not any more a people's movement than NARC-K or NARC, NARK, whatever

[aeichener]

The statement of Osirisisgod is entirely correct, of course. The ODM of today, with or without the apppended -K moniker, is a typical Kenyan political party, and not a people's movement.

However, that does *not* mean that leftists should not try to make their position and opinion heard within ODM. And the present discussion (see Oloo's recent posting) is about the sensibility and maybe necessity of historical alliances, and of collective incorporation into ODM, in order to work from within, rather than mere individual conversion as a rank-and-file-member ;-).

Alexander

[johns]

osirisisgod said:

The real conundrum is that anyone with any leftist credentials will find it hard to find a place inside ODM-K. ODM or ODM-R. Rhetoric aside, ODM and all the permutations of it, is not any more a people's movement than NARC-K or NARC, NARK, whatever

You mentioned somewhere that you are in ODM, which permutation of the ODM are you a member? I long thought you had moved out with Kalonzo to some forsaken place, since it has been your habit to shout to everyone who can hear you how contemptible you hold Raila, i am suprised to hear you talk of belonging to ODM, unless you meant the one being funded by Moi.

[Mukwhasi]

I have always been an ardent supporter of Jim both inside and out side parliament , i would like to see him play cosmopolitan politics though , i know he has what it takes.But wherever he chooses to stand i wish him luck.

[osirisisgod]

johns said:

osirisisgod said:

The real conundrum is that anyone with any leftist credentials will find it hard to find a place inside ODM-K. ODM or ODM-R. Rhetoric aside, ODM and all the permutations of it, is not any more a people's movement than NARC-K or NARC, NARK, whatever

You mentioned somewhere that you are in ODM, which permutation of the ODM are you a member? I long thought you had moved out with Kalonzo to some forsaken place, since it has been your habit to shout to everyone who can hear you how contemptible you hold Raila, i am suprised to hear you talk of belonging to ODM, unless you meant the one being funded by Moi.

Jaduong' Johns,
We are looking very hard for it, a party of the mwananchi., when I find it I will tell you. I know you are also very uncomfortable being in ODM-R as you have told me many times.

[dola121945]

Osirisgod and Johns,

Instead of looking for it where you won't find it, why not start your own ?

It will be much easier, because then you will be advocating your mwananchi party!

[job]

Dola,
Amen!

Johns,
Thanks for being quite observant! I sincerely noticed that too, long back. Osiris comes out as a very intelligent and progressive Kenyan. Paradoxically, the progressive Osiris's liking and support for the conservative conformist, Kalonzo Musyoka, has never been veiled, and thus can be clearly documented (on record). Thus, the missing link I'm yet to figure out (a topic I'll save for another day) is the connection between Stephen Kalonzo Musyoka and his progressive ideals. Have a Gud day!

Osiris,
With all due respect, a party of the Mwananchi can be formed rather than "trying" to find it where it ain't gonna be. That saves the pain of being "uncomfortable" in ODM-R. By the way is ODM-R synonymous with the original ODM? Just curious.

Job

[johns]

Osiris,

By coining the name ODM-R for the movement majority of kenyans look to as their only vehicle to unlocking poverty, makes it clear how far removed from the progressives you are becoming by the day. I expect to hear that kind of phrase from Moi whom we can all find an excuse ...., its called senility.

The phobic in you can be cured if you take time to understand the environmentally rooted personality traits that are relevant to Raila's political behavior. These are set of attitudes, beliefs, and sentiments that give order and meaning to a political process and that provide the underlying assumptions and rules that have govern his behavior in the political system. Don't go hating what you dont understand!!

[osirisisgod]

Jodongo,
First of all thank you for the kind compliments. I do not think I have anywhere praised Kalonzo Musyoka. I admit to having defended him, but I have also defended Raila Odinga and Mwai Kibaki when they have been unfairly attacked.
Right now there are claims on this board that Raila and ODM are receiving a bad deal from the newspapers, but this is like child's play compared to the hot party you together with the DP fellows have organised for Kalonzo.

What I support is the idea of a weak executive. For a revolution to come in Kenya, a true and lasting change in the way we approach the executive, we need a weak President, one who will not be able to marshal the unquestioning support of large hordes, but also one who will need to embrace the people from all the borders of the land to him in order to last in office. In the term of this weak President, we can build national institutions and reject the cults of leader worship that have been the staple since independence expressly because he will not be able to marshal votes, or treasure against the people in the way that a powerful President can. Democracy in a representative republic is undermined always by the power of the executive.

Our newspapers ,and even the sentiment on a 'progressive' site like Jukwaa, are in search of a ruler. What Osiris is looking for is a governor, someone under whose tutelage we can gain a fresh constitution, someone under whom we can become a parliamentary democracy, someone who Parliament and the people can keep in check and perhaps most importantly, someone who by default will heal the polarisation of the country. It is for this reason that the loneliness of Kalonzo Musyoka or even Billow Kerrow or Najib Balala or Musalia Mudavadi will be attractive. Weak and without a zealous tribal bedrock these men will have to govern by consensus, taking good care not to infuriate the good nature of the people. In addition, they are not sheathed in the endless networks that will begin to demand they be sated only three days after the election results are announced.

The examples of Kenyatta, Kibaki and Moi prove one thing most eloquently, even the best man nicely sat at State House, if surrounded with the impunity that those of the larger tribes and/ or populist bent are granted by their prominence, will abuse his power, and there will be nothing at all that the rest of the country can do about it. Newspaper articles will be written, protests will be planned, but with everything nicelt sewn up even in Parliament, there is nothing anyone in Kenya can do about Anglo-Leasing, Goldenburg, Safaricom or the endless robbery of Wanjiku in privatisation. And why not? Well, the President has from the get-go, the slavish support of 30 odd MPs starting as he goes into any challenge.

To iterate, with a weak President on the other hand, we can be sure of a new Constitution, less corruption and an inclusive power structure. Such a man will have to wield the instruments of state only very gingerly, for at any point the people can dethrone him.

Finally, I do not see any significant likely difference in policy or ideology between the candidates. I do not think Raila is a progressive, and while we are on this thread neither it seems, does James Orengo.

So in a nutshell, no I do not support Kalonzo Musyoka, in fact I find his religious bent and his subservience to the USA quite off-putting. What I support are the interests of the weak people. Even the most mischevious will note that in my previous post on this page, I made clear that I did not believe ODM in any of its permutations was a party interested in the defence of the ordinary Kenyan, not even as ODM-K.

P.S. I am willing to concede however that mine is a mere fantasy. Kenyans fancy a strong-man, and the heavens will grant them one. More power to his elbow.

[politicalmaniac]

This post above is full of nonsensical contradicitions.

Ruler Vs govenor?

A weak, isolated President is best suited to usher in a new constitutional dispensation? What? He is supposed to replicate what Generali Keguouya de Othaya did by playing truant from Bomas and isolating himself from the process instead of engaging the Bomas delegates in a honest spirited debate? And lead from the front and not from behind?

R is not progressive? Are you just bandying about the word for the sake of pedantic argument or have you looked at Rs manifesto and vision and determined it wasnt progressive? Which means that R is a status quoist conservative 'leave things as they are' politician. This is hogwash.

I dont know if you know what you are saying, and I dont know if you know that your arguments are very discombobulated devoid of reality.

[dola121945]

I tend to agree with you PM, the argument above doesn't make sense at all!

Osiris, are you saying that MK should stay as president again, and this time around parliament will indeed ensure that he makes the right choices? He has indeed been a lame duck president, and nothing has been accompished as per your analysis above.

As long as the system is put in place, and checks and balances maintained, then we hopefully are looking at having a country that will revive itself, much faster than has been estimated, ie the vision 2030 etc.

It's a shame that you do not see, the difference in Ideology between the likes of Raila, Orengo et al and that of Kibaki and Co.

Nothing more to add here! I suggest you take it upon yourself to get more educated on the issues before postulating on the same.