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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 9, 2011 4:23:14 GMT 3
What a joyful day!!
I note that the Panuarers here are VERY deflated
Yep
SHAURI YENU!
They are so used to bulldozing wenye nchi
Ocampo Ni Nani?
Ocampo ndiyo yule yule wembe ata wanyoa!
I have no compunctions, no hesitation, no vacillation, about celebrating this major milestone.
Let us in the meantime hope that the process will end where it needs to end - The Hague!
If they are found Not Guilty(It does not mean they are innocent though) - then so be it.
PNU THOUGHT IT COULD STEAL THE ELECTIONS, KILL FOLKS RECKLESSLY, THEN RUN ROUGHSHOD OVER THE CITIZENRY.
THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD BAMBOOZLE US ALL THE TIME.
NO WAY AMIGO!!
YES THE MOTHER OF ALL COURTS WILL SPEAK ON OUR BEHALF
HAGUE NI KWA NINA!! - Jomo jnr was right!!
So again let me ask kina muthaura.
WAS IT WORTH IT?
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Post by the2ruth on Mar 9, 2011 4:46:29 GMT 3
Sources at the Hague indicate that with regards to the first case in which the defendants are Messrs Ruto, Kosgei, and Sang following the submission of evidence by Ruto during his visit to the court and the subsequent media offensive by members of the PNU wing of government through a widely distributed DVD, the judges were forced to request the prosecutor to clarify responsibility in their ruling through the following points:
In presenting his counts, the Prosecutor described the alleged
responsibility of the three persons only "as co-perpetrators, or in the alternative" as
falling under article 25(3)(d) of the Statute. Later, under the section on modes of
liability, the Prosecutor alleged that the three persons' criminal responsibility fits as
"indirect co-perpetrators, or in the alternative, as co-perpetrators" or as common
purpose liability under article 25(3)(d) of the Statute.
And....
In particular, the Chamber is not persuaded that it is best
practice to make simultaneous findings on modes of liability presented \ in the
alternative. A person cannot be deemed concurrently as a principal and an accessory
to the same crime.
This attempt by both parties in each case to shift the focus towards the PM should be checked by all, especially since no similar reference was made towards PORK whom ultimately is the most responsible through initial theft and subsequent killings
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Post by mank on Mar 9, 2011 4:58:38 GMT 3
I have mixed reactions to this topic. On the one side I do not see what there is to celebrate - nothing against those who do. On the other, I am disappointed to learn that the country's resources are likely to continue being wasted in fighting the ICC.
The winning side of the mixed reactions is my wish that Ocampo may see what is being planned, and manage to impress on the Judges that the 6 should be accommodate in the Hague till the matter is decided in their favour, or till they expire if that be the decision then.
For quite a while now Kenya has not engaged in much that did not revolve around strategy na kuropokwa about the Ocampo 6. I hope this helps us move on, and leave Ocampo's business to Ocampo. , This is not "Ocampo's business". This is our country. This is our business. And I agree with Johns. That this could very well be one of the most important days in the political calender of country. It feels great to be Kenyan. It is indeed. But this is special moment for our nation. For the generations that have fought for a better country, a more just country, this is their day. For all the heroes and heroines of the Kenyan struggle many of whom gave their lives for justice, this is their day. For the 1,300 or so killed in the PEV mayhem, this is their day. For the women raped, some repeatedly as we saw in Maina Kiai's video, this is their day. For the children who lost their parents and who must live in perpetual horror, this is their day. For the burnt, the roasted children of our country this is their day.Many of them (freedom fighters, survivors and victims) did not know about Uhuru Kenyatta, did not know about William Ruto or Francis Muthaura and the three others, but they fought for the most part to end impunity and the culture of political godfathers in Kenya who kill, rob and rape our country at will and are above the laws of the land by the power of their positions in state the machines that run the nation. This whole ICC concrete decisions on summons and possibler arrest warrants on the Ocampo six, may be just a small slice of that hope of ending impunity in our country. But it is by far the biggest victory for the progressive forces in the country we all love love, regardless of our political positions as citizens of the great republic of Kenya. Coupled with the new constitution, Kenya is headed somewhere good. We do not know what will happen now that the summons have been issued. Crazy things may happen. But nothing will scare Kenyans. This was a hill we had to climb as a country. The nation is comfortable with the results. I suspect there are jubilations and celebrations everywhere, but tomorrow the nation is back to work. We have to help Ocampo to help us as a country. He is doing a good job and the ICC judges are doing a great job too. They were very specific with each ruling on each individual. If they didn't find the charges had been explained enough, they rejected them and allowed to Prosecutor if he so wishes to provide further evidence later. Where they found the charges and the evidence were warranted they accepted them and made their rulings without fear, favour or prejudice. One gets the feeling that this is going to be a straight forward court with no games and their purpose will be to achieve justice for the victims and survivors and to let the perpetrators know that they are no longer in charge, but rather the subjects of a fair trial. In any event these people are being charged with committing by far the worst crimes a human being can commit. They did so against fellow Kenyans for their own self interest. We as a country must never allow them to get away with it. That is why this is our business, more than Ocampo's. We as Kenyans must demand every piece of evidence all the way. Who planned what? Who paid money for what?. Who killed Kenyans? Why?. Who had weapons and how did the y get it? What did they do with weapons against Kenyans? Commit crimes? Against humanity? Those are the questions only ICC can answer. What is wrong with that? The world is saying; nothing!. Great. Bring back the shuttle and let's the gentlemen go to the Hague. Let's just hope that everything will be broadcast live. Knowing Kenyans, I think they will do it. Let's hear the truth. I think we will. The Nation is ready for it. Who is NOT? That is the big question. It will answered in both ways in a matter of days. Watch this space. It is the country of all Kenyans after all. We, as Kenyans, should all be happy for this day. Yes they are. Let's move the country forward. I think the nation can. I am very confident about my country and so I think are millions of other Kenyans of every tribe, ethnic group, gender and race. The nation looks good, doesn't it? adongo [/size][/quote] Adongo, I am yet to find a few minutes to read the summons. Perhaps I will see the reason to join in jubilation once I do read them, or depending on how explicit the summons as to what the cases are, I could be waiting for when the cases are on course to jubilate. In no way do I mean that I do not care about the issues you point out - "Who planned what? Who paid money for what?. who killed people ... etc." I do, but I am not sure we have reached a point where the questions are answered yet. If its jubiliation about the process, the course is just. Jubilation of an end, not yet. My reservation for now owes to the fact that these are just summons - not guilty verdicts. My posting was also a reaction to the call the government has found in meddling with the ICC case. It is like nothing matters any more. As we read that summons are out, we are also reading that Kalonzo is off again on this and that about the ICC. So I am glad that call is finally coming to its end. |
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Post by nalinali on Mar 9, 2011 4:59:18 GMT 3
Sources at the Hague indicate that with regards to the first case in which the defendants are Messrs Ruto, Kosgei, and Sang following the submission of evidence by Ruto during his visit to the court and the subsequent media offensive by members of the PNU wing of government through a widely distributed DVD, the judges were forced to request the prosecutor to clarify responsibility in their ruling through the following points: In presenting his counts, the Prosecutor described the alleged responsibility of the three persons only "as co-perpetrators, or in the alternative" as falling under article 25(3)(d) of the Statute. Later, under the section on modes of liability, the Prosecutor alleged that the three persons' criminal responsibility fits as "indirect co-perpetrators, or in the alternative, as co-perpetrators" or as common purpose liability under article 25(3)(d) of the Statute. And.... In particular, the Chamber is not persuaded that it is best practice to make simultaneous findings on modes of liability presented \ in the alternative. A person cannot be deemed concurrently as a principal and an accessory to the same crime. This attempt by both parties in each case to shift the focus towards the PM should be checked by all, especially since no similar reference was made towards PORK whom ultimately is the most responsible through initial theft and subsequent killings the2truth I will not claim to be "a forester in the thickets of the law", but the gist of your posting is that there are legal windows through which other individuals may be sneaked in and made co-conspirators in the crimes under question. That such windows present the PNU/Ocampo six with the their much sought opportunity to ensnare the PM. Is that it? My position is that this stage in the process has been reached on the basis of some "investigation" that yielded "credible evidence" that met the threshold for the summons.On the basis of this evidence, six folks have been fingered. If the PM or any other person is to be enjoined in the case hereafter, it will depend on further unearthing of hitherto unheard evidence that equally meets the threshold. If such evidence is to be provide by Ruto and co. I have my doubts (I could be wrong) that it will meet such legal measurement knowing too well the political motivation propelling this group in respect of the PM. |
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Post by okolowaka on Mar 9, 2011 5:01:05 GMT 3
...I celebrate this great day in Kenya; and I do hope that the two cases rope in Kibaki, the one who bares the greatest responsibility...  the2truth, This is why charge sheets usually read "the defendant, individualy or in co-operation with others not before this court"...in this case the co-perpetrator is most likely Kibaki... Thank you ICC.... |
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Post by nalinali on Mar 9, 2011 5:06:55 GMT 3
What a joyful day!! I note that the Panuarers here are VERY deflated Yep SHAURI YENU! They are so used to bulldozing wenye nchi Ocampo Ni Nani? Ocampo ndiyo yule yule wembe ata wanyoa! I have no compunctions, no hesitation, no vacillation, about celebrating this major milestone. Let us in the meantime hope that the process will end where it needs to end - The Hague! If they are found Not Guilty(It does not mean they are innocent though) - then so be it. PNU THOUGHT IT COULD STEAL THE ELECTIONS, KILL FOLKS RECKLESSLY, THEN RUN ROUGHSHOD OVER THE CITIZENRY. THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD BAMBOOZLE US ALL THE TIME. NO WAY AMIGO!! YES THE MOTHER OF ALL COURTS WILL SPEAK ON OUR BEHALF HAGUE NI KWA NINA!! - Jomo jnr was right!! So again let me ask kina muthaura. WAS IT WORTH IT? PM My enthusiasm surpasses that of everyone else in all probability. This si so because, the stage we have reached in the whole "process"-- as Mank would want us to isolate and treat as a separate element from the overall goal--is in every conceivable way self inflicted by the Ocampo six. Had the PM and the President had their way during the clamor for STK, it is highly unlikely that the current state of affairs of our judiciary would have produced such an outcome as the ICC. There is every possibility that the tribunal would have succumbed to political machinations whose singular goal is to frame Raila. I wrote about this elsewhere and i repeat it here, that Uhuru and co brought all this to themselves and unwittingly so. Marx and Gramsci were not far from the truth in respect of the self destructive nature of hegemony. What is happening to the Ocampo six and especially Uhuru and his protector Kibaki is their payment for courting the illusion of inevitability and supplanting reality with it at the expense of other Kenyans. Uhuru as representative of the ruling elite believed in the self-enclosed totality of his class and ethnicity that the humbling awareness of fallibility ceased to matter. The use of state machinery to impress other communities and Kenyans in general about their sense of indispensability probably blindsided him from the perilous outcome of planning ethnic based revenge attacks on innocent Kenyans. KIbaki was best placed to use legitimate means of containment but chose to outsource this to Uhuru. At that moment, containment did not mean protecting Kenyans but rather protecting ethnic interests. In their world, the government was synonymous with Kikuyu interests. In his world there was no way anyone could hold him accountable. The summons (and trials if they are conducted) are really self-inflicted in every way and the best Kenyan can do is to ease Uhuru and co out of their dangerous edifice of self-righteous impunity into justice and accountability. If this is not a sufficient ground for decadent exuberance, nothing else will. I love it so far. |
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Post by nalinali on Mar 9, 2011 5:09:35 GMT 3
the2truth I will not claim to be "a forester in the thickets of the law", but the gist of your posting is that there are legal windows through which other individuals may be sneaked in and made co-conspirators in the crimes under question. That such windows present the PNU/Ocampo six with the their much sought opportunity to ensnare the PM. My position is that this stage in the process has been reached on the basis of some "investigation" that yielded "credible evidence" that met the threshold for the summons.On the basis of this evidence, six folks have been fingered. If the PM or any other person is to be enjoined in the case hereafter, it will depend on further unearthing of hitherto unheard evidence that equally meets the threshold. If such evidence is to be provide by Ruto and co. I have my doubts (i could be wrong) that it will meet such legal measurement knowing too well the political motivation propelling this group in respect of the PM. uR A DOG ...NEVER CALL rAILAS NAME ANYWAY U LIKE IT ...PUNDA WEWE Gachquota I have every reason to believe that you did not read my post in entirety before posting. If you did then you did not understand it in the least. Try reading it again and if you fail to understand it then you are mand rombo.Idiot. (apologies to OO) |
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Post by mank on Mar 9, 2011 5:14:45 GMT 3
uR A DOG ...NEVER CALL rAILAS NAME ANYWAY U LIKE IT ...PUNDA WEWE Try moderation to celebrate wisely. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 9, 2011 5:24:11 GMT 3
Sources at the Hague indicate that with regards to the first case in which the defendants are Messrs Ruto, Kosgei, and Sang following the submission of evidence by Ruto during his visit to the court and the subsequent media offensive by members of the PNU wing of government through a widely distributed DVD, the judges were forced to request the prosecutor to clarify responsibility in their ruling through the following points: In presenting his counts, the Prosecutor described the alleged responsibility of the three persons only "as co-perpetrators, or in the alternative" as falling under article 25(3)(d) of the Statute. Later, under the section on modes of liability, the Prosecutor alleged that the three persons' criminal responsibility fits as "indirect co-perpetrators, or in the alternative, as co-perpetrators" or as common purpose liability under article 25(3)(d) of the Statute. And.... In particular, the Chamber is not persuaded that it is best practice to make simultaneous findings on modes of liability presented \ in the alternative. A person cannot be deemed concurrently as a principal and an accessory to the same crime. This attempt by both parties in each case to shift the focus towards the PM should be checked by all, especially since no similar reference was made towards PORK whom ultimately is the most responsible through initial theft and subsequent killings Eti "sources at the Hague": Which sources? The judges? The OTP? Or the grapevine? The rest of of the stuff is incomprehensible. Let Ruto and company get good lawyers. This is not a joke in a Kenyan High Court with the prosecutor behaving as the defense lawyer. This is the real deal. On April 7, 2011, the Ocampo six will have to come to the Hague to answer to crimes against humanity. Kenyans will pay attention to the evidence. They deserve to. Let the nation meet there. It is at our doors anyways. I think it is time to work with the survivors and the victims to let them tell their stories, frightening as they may be. This was not a passive atrocity. It cost lives. A lot of them. From every ethnic group. Let the ICC process, already endorsed by the Kenyan government in July 2009, in Geneva, approved by the ICC Pre-Trial Chamber II and now officially with a summons order from the highest court in the globe, takes its course. Those accused should not think they can threaten the country. They will have to answer as individuals and members of whatever groups they were working fro. It will be a matter evidence at the ICC hearings. Evidence for justice. Truthful evidence on what happened from the victims. They will present their evidence live. The women who were raped. The men and women with half burnt out bodies. Those people are going to be important. If they can come to the Hague and tell the world what they went through, then may be the country can start picking up the pieces. I think they will. Very many Kenyans are headed to the Hague to bear witness. No, the Hague will not be theirs, it will be for the masses of the Kenyan people. Survivors and victims of the PEV will be there. "Let's Meet At The Hague"Who wants to make that T-Shirt? Seriously: "Let's Meet At The Hague"Oh, NO!!!What Next?There: "Let's Meet At The Hague"adongo |
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Post by toddo on Mar 9, 2011 5:25:10 GMT 3
It is indeed a brighter day for Kenya. The future merchants of impunity have been given a clear warning that things are not going to be the same. In fact, things have not been the same since the PEV. The people came out and peacefully voted in what was supposed to be a historic election and a dawn of a better Kenya. Instead we were treated like personal property and the people rejected the shenanigans. They killed, raped, maimed, tortured, harassed and stole the hopes and aspirations of many Kenyans through violence and murder but now the wheels of justice are slowly but surely picking up pace. Today, March 8th, 2011 marks a great stride in which these people and their cohorts will be reminded that Kenya and the world is watching. Whereas some people believe that Kenya is only entitled for a a few, today they are reminded that they are mistaken.
Now when it comes to the summons let me say this. My prediction is that some of the six may feel that the noose is too tight and they may go make a deal with the ICC. Wachunge! We are watching them. Making a deal with ICC does not mean that Kenyans will forget.
Others may outrightly not cooperate with ICC - like Bashir has done. We need to remind those that plan to go that route that the tentacles of justice are all over the world. This is 2011! We shall get you and ensure you face justice. My fear is that the likes of Sang, Muthaura and Ali may bolt and disappear. I believe this is because they could be sponsored by Kibaki ( especially Ali and Muthaura) to hide in some nondescript country till things cool down. Sadly, this may not be a good route to take. If ICC issues arrest warrants, they could still eventually be found.
Kibaki may make excuses for them until the he leaves the presidency but we are all here to stay. In fact, we are yet to finish dealing with the likes of Moi. The files may be many but the will of the people of Kenya who love justice, equality and peace will not be broken. However long it takes, Kenyans shall take their rightful place. This is what we need to bequeath to all Kenyan generations. If I were Uhuru, I would be begging for forgiveness from Kenyans so as to rectify the misdeeds of Jomo Kenyatta and my own. Otherwise, he will be a forgotten name in the history of Kenya. It may be too late for him now.
Meanwhile, let us thank God that today came. I hope somebody can remind Kalonzo that he will account for the taxpayer's money.
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Post by mank on Mar 9, 2011 5:33:41 GMT 3
We are probably going back to noise about funding ... you see, some of the summoned were in an act of duty, or so we were (and will be) told. My apologies folks, the excitement is justified. This is the movie we bought all that pop corn for.
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Post by toddo on Mar 9, 2011 5:35:52 GMT 3
"Let's Meet At The Hague"Who wants to make that T-Shirt? "Let's Meet At The Hague""Let's Meet At The Hague" I think I might just order this T-Shirt. Seriously, I will ask one of my buddies who makes T-shirts to get on this...LoL ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by shifta on Mar 9, 2011 5:40:50 GMT 3
mank said:
Whoa there!! You do not see what there is to celebrate? I did not think there were jukwaaists who believe like Ruto that the Eldoret church fire was started by a kitchen short circuit (as he told ambassador Rannen-dude.) So they ask, why waste our money?
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Post by nalinali on Mar 9, 2011 5:43:26 GMT 3
In our enthusiasm, let us not forget the adage of the “kicks of a dying horse”. If the reality of the impending trial (possible) and subsequent possibility of incarceration dawns on the Ocampo six, there me no limit to what they may unleash on the society in a bid to defend themselves. Do not forget that this group is in control of the coercive machinery. The question is whether or not they are willing to deploy these to protect the six. The way some of them have carried themselves since they were named on DEC 15, 2010 is sufficient to cause further trepidation among Kenyans as to their next PoA. The challenge lying ahead has everything to do with the mobilization of Kenyans to enforce compliance with the demands of ICC by the six at every stage. For instance, I do not know what they hope to gain by collecting and buying signatures from wananchi. But such plans call for equally countermanding measures by the civil society and political parties interested in arresting wanton impunity in Kenya.
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Post by shifta on Mar 9, 2011 5:50:22 GMT 3
I guess there is a bright a side if you come from Kifak-ee's home area - there are two potential job openings coming up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 6:41:22 GMT 3
long live O campo and ICC and i hope there will be some justice for the deceased/alive victims. For me this is the greatest birthday present as the summons falls on my birthday which i now hope will be turned into WARRANTS. Here's to hoping that you've had a good birthday on this 100th, International Women's Day. Happy IWD to all of the women, girls and allies out there. Now, Kenyans will always celebrate the handing down of this decision on March 8th as we celebrate IWD. Here's to that |
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 9, 2011 7:20:52 GMT 3
Folks,
After reading those things, I am convinced more than ever that there is nothing in these cases that should scare anyone. The whole thing reads like a 'vioja mahakamani' charge sheet. It will be interesting to read the dissenting judge's views though. Anyone with this?
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Post by shifta on Mar 9, 2011 7:29:41 GMT 3
Mwalimumkuu at least you are are consistently Ruto-damu, even when things are elephant you make sure you focus on the tail, "It can not be that big", so you claim....jikaze tu kisabuni
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 9, 2011 7:52:54 GMT 3
Mwalimumkuu at least you are are consistently Ruto-damu, even when things are elephant you make sure you focus on the tail, "It can not be that big", so you claim....jikaze tu kisabuni You must be seeing Ruto in your sleep my guy. Anyhow, I do not think that this is about Ruto any more, we crossed that river many months ago. |
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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 9, 2011 8:40:14 GMT 3
I cant wait to see the evidence adduced by Ocampo and also see/read the witness accounts.
My goodness
As early as Mid Nov, a month and a half prior to the Dec twenty someting election, jomo jnr and muthaura and mungiki were meeting!!
I would love to know if any of these meetings were held in SH.
These guys are in deep sh!t.
Perhaps the only one who can kick the blame upstairs is Ali.
And when are these thugs gonna "step aside?"
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Post by tnk on Mar 9, 2011 9:48:58 GMT 3
I cant wait to see the evidence adduced by Ocampo and also see/read the witness accounts. My goodness As early as Mid Nov, a month and a half prior to the Dec twenty someting election, jomo jnr and muthaura and mungiki were meeting!! I would love to know if any of these meetings were held in SH. These guys are in deep sh!t. Perhaps the only one who can kick the blame upstairs is Ali. And when are these thugs gonna "step aside?" contrary to the popular belief that naivasha attacks were retaliatory the first pre-election violence was perpetuated by mungiki nov 2007 kenya.ushahidi.com/reports/view/2836this came after a sh meeting never tabulated |
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Post by Horth on Mar 9, 2011 10:13:40 GMT 3
These guys are not going to The Hague, whether for the summons or even if the arrest warrants are issued. The shuttle “diplomacy” of akina Kalonzo & fools and the AU deferral request should be a pointer to what’s coming.
Foreign (or rather colonist) interference in a sovereign country will be brought to play (watch Gaddafi or Mugabe in action if you need an example). This sovereign country (Kenya) is even in the process of implementing a new constitution with a radically new judiciary to come which will be able to deal with these cases. Honestly, it’s more advantageous for Kibaki to refuse to honor the summons than to have them accepted by the Ocampo 6.
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Post by destiny on Mar 9, 2011 10:40:03 GMT 3
And lest we forget, here's the unbelievably lucky snake rattler that got away from Ocampo's net and lived to tell the tale....  |
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Post by mzee on Mar 9, 2011 10:45:40 GMT 3
And lest we forget, here's the unbelievably lucky snake rattler that got away from Ocampo's net and lived to tell the tale.... It wont be over until its over. Ali is due to put Michuki in trouble. Watch this space |
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 9, 2011 12:23:02 GMT 3
The summons have not made any newsworthy materials in the leading broadcasters across the world. does this say something ?
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