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Post by mzee on Feb 20, 2012 17:55:49 GMT 3
Does the PM miss Miguna at such times? That was the only guy who could tell off people coming up with baseless criticism just for the sake of it.
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Post by b6k on Feb 20, 2012 22:01:32 GMT 3
@ Adongo, the joint Raila-Mudavadi delegates campaigns won't happen any time soon. Citizen news at 9 tonight reported a high level ODM meeting attended by both protagonists has resolved that they will campaign separately. No magical kumbaya moment as you predicted on another thread.
@ Merlin, as Mwalimumkuu stated only Phil can provide information on the delegates status.
@ Mzee, poleni sana. The Miguna 911 emergency line was disconnected eons ago. You'll have to make do with the blundering Dennis Onyango for now.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 21, 2012 7:35:53 GMT 3
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Post by b6k on Feb 21, 2012 12:35:05 GMT 3
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Post by nok on Feb 22, 2012 19:40:46 GMT 3
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Post by b6k on Feb 22, 2012 23:27:07 GMT 3
It looks like football analogies are here to stay. Sigh....
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 23, 2012 21:31:36 GMT 3
b6k, If Onyango and Kabatesi are in the same party --the same boat but rooting for different captains, common sense would be their interests so concide that they do not speak to one another through the press. They must have hotlines one to the other 24/7. Otherwise very soon they wont be on speaking terms but shouting through the press. Opening wide their flanks for counter-fire. I am amazed at their amateurism. But I guess these things are new to us and we are learning by trial and error!
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Post by foresight on Feb 24, 2012 2:51:21 GMT 3
Here is my take- If Musalia Mudavadi cannot on his own see the negative potential that lies within what is justifiably his democratic right then he is A REALLY BIG FOOL...
If he uses the democracy within his ODM party to destroy its chances of reaching a desired goal, then I consider him a fool.
If he cannot see the repercussions of contradicting the PMs office, then he is no longer working with PM but against him.
If Mudavadi and his PR team want whats best for ODM.. then they must realize their office both within GOVERNMENT and ODM is subordinate to that of the PM.
The effort the PM is making to downplay the rift and present a united ODM is not receiving reciprocal support from Mudavadi, it is increasingly looking and now obvious that he would rather let things look antagonistic, thats the only way he feels he remains potent.
If he will be the reason that ODM disintergrates then it can only be termed "classic betrayal!
Surely can't he see on his own what the dangers are?
Its now a common pattern iwith every politician, Tom, Dick and Harry... if you want your approval ratings to go up, FIGHT the PM.
RAO has to deal with it, for such is LEADERSHIP!
The quality of any leader is determined by the level of challenges it takes to discourage him or her.
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Post by b6k on Feb 24, 2012 21:39:58 GMT 3
b6k, If Onyango and Kabatesi are in the same party --the same boat but rooting for different captains, common sense would be their interests so concide that they do not speak to one another through the press. They must have hotlines one to the other 24/7. Otherwise very soon they wont be on speaking terms but shouting through the press. Opening wide their flanks for counter-fire. I am amazed at their amateurism. But I guess these things are new to us and we are learning by trial and error! It seems the high level ODM meeting at a Nairobi hotel is giving forth its fruits. The top brass must've clamped down on the respective Goebbels as all appears quiet on the western front. Either that or the demise of Michuki & the Karume has hogged the headlines.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 25, 2012 23:26:18 GMT 3
This is the closest we have come to understanding what is going on in the later day baba na mama party. Pay close attention to one of the ODM's flower girls' (Rachael Shebesh) comments and you will begin to get the sense that Raila group is beginning to get restless with the reality. Remember it is the same flower girl that was recently send to radios to demonize Mudavadi for running away with the county proposal, which was supposedly a party proposition, but the clever Kibisu Kabatesi put the issue beyond discussion with the speed of lightening. She is back. Read for yourself. www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000052870&cid=4If I were to advise Raila, I would tell him not to put roadblocks in the way of Mudavadi. The only way here, is for him to go with Mudavadi's proposal, if he loses, he should support his deputy. Meanwhile, Museveni is appalled by reports emanating from Raila's campaign that he was in Kisumu recently to 'tosha' Raila. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Museveni+I+didnt+discuss+ODM+politics+/-/1064/1335286/-/6ka8y5/-/index.html
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Post by b6k on Feb 26, 2012 8:21:01 GMT 3
This is the closest we have come to understanding what is going on in the later day baba na mama party. Pay close attention to one of the ODM's flower girls' (Rachael Shebesh) comments and you will begin to get the sense that Raila group is beginning to get restless with the reality. Remember it is the same flower girl that was recently send to radios to demonize Mudavadi for running away with the county proposal, which was supposedly a party proposition, but the clever Kibisu Kabatesi put the issue beyond discussion with the speed of lightening. She is back. Read for yourself. www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000052870&cid=4If I were to advise Raila, I would tell him not to put roadblocks in the way of Mudavadi. The only way here, is for him to go with Mudavadi's proposal, if he loses, he should support his deputy. Meanwhile, Museveni is appalled by reports emanating from Raila's campaign that he was in Kisumu recently to 'tosha' Raila. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Museveni+I+didnt+discuss+ODM+politics+/-/1064/1335286/-/6ka8y5/-/index.htmlMwalimumkuu, baba na mama party just about covers it. I'm not surprised the NDC or whatever mechanism they proceed with has been postponed. One get's the impression ODM goes through the motions of creating a semblance of "internal" democracy not because it's the right thing to do but in order to appease foreign backers. As for pulling M7 into ODM politics, Dennis Onyango should've known better. Putting spin on an event when all players have a PA or press secretary was bound to fail. The truth has come out yet again leaving his boss with egg on his face. I agree with Phil. The guy is an amateur & a liability to the party.
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 26, 2012 15:40:01 GMT 3
[Mwalimumkuu, baba na mama party just about covers it. I'm not surprised the NDC or whatever mechanism they proceed with has been postponed. One get's the impression ODM goes through the motions of creating a semblance of "internal" democracy not because it's the right thing to do but in order to appease foreign backers. As for pulling M7 into ODM politics, Dennis Onyango should've known better. Putting spin on an event when all players have a PA or press secretary was bound to fail. The truth has come out yet again leaving his boss with egg on his face. I agree with Phil. The guy is an amateur & a liability to the party. b6kLets have some good advice here from you too. I like to distribute it for free, since I think that is part of a teacher’s patriotic duty. You, on the other hand, seem to be enjoying these stupidities as you munch pop-corn, or sip malt for all I know! Stop and help me think along please, will ya! I think ODM –the dominant raila faction, is playing with fire here. They are trying, if those newspaper clippings be correct, to manoeuvre the technicalities such that they have the desired outcome. This is structural rigging. Not to mention the bureaucratic intimidation. [The machination to have candidates declare their running mates in advance so that Mudavadi does not have a fallback position, and therefore is reigned in out of fear.] (By the way this is the kind of machinations Tom Mboya excelled in when he dealt with the Jaramogi led KPU threat to KANU] If Mudavadi is defeated in this dishonest way, outmanoeuvred by a process not fair, the backlash may well be more profound than the consequences of a Raila loss at the primaries. 1. ODM would have curtailed the emergence a genuine and competitive democratic process, and disintergrated herself ideologically. 2.The backyard of Mudavadi will laugh at him, reducing him into a thing easy to manipulate, weak and of no consequence. Mudavadi would not be able to hold his fort in Western in the face of such a barrage. His credibility gone. 3. Mudavadi will stay in ODM, put is is possible the unfairness would raise such a bitter emotion in his heart, that he could easily speak with a double tongue during the later campaigns, effectively covertly supporting the ant-Raila candidate at the presidential run-off. 4.Raila dropping Mudavadi now from his ticket –so that he can replace him Gitobu Imanyara or some other MK fella as ethnic calculators like Otieno Dalmas want, would be too cynical at this late date to work. It would be too repellent in the current discourse. ----- Ach, Onyango spinning the M7 dinner was plain stupid. Even from the perspective of 'a foreign head of state must not be seen to be interfering in the internal affairs of a neighbour'' ! Makes him privy to the internal dynamics of a country he is technically at war with --Migingo; puts him in a position to manipulate the key players, as he recieves quality information free, which his intelligence services are spying around for. The PR department did not think of other implications of what they were doing!
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Post by nereah on Feb 26, 2012 17:11:32 GMT 3
while i was away, the only thing that has happened is that mudavadi has by good measure regained foothold in the expansive western kenya.
those of us who have soft spot for the son of mudamba have been worried of his weak,virtually non-existent home constituency.i dont care if romney loses or lost in his hometown but it matters to the odm that its presumptive heir apparent must wield considerable influence in his base.
as to the odm ticket, this is strictly odm affair and as the catholics are doing it( with the recent reorganization of the house of cardinals where i am informed europe constitute the majority and italy the largest majority of vote block)odm way remains its highway.
we must never forget, even as we conflate the happenings including resurgence of musalia and whispers of fifth columnists in odm -ruto &co are still technically odm members (the weekend star is bold enough to question if musalia is kibaki's project) that wycliffe is in odm to stay. this porojo ati agwambo is a heavily marked player hence he should pass the ball to mudavadi to score is the lowest those idlers out to mislead the file of odm are.
i am saying that this mudavadi narrative must first be handled in the historical context of 2007 in which odm delegates exercised their democratic right and wisdom to pick agwambo and vote wycliffe second.delegates may have changed but we have a precedence.
wycliffe will emerge from the odm primaries much stronger and resolute.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 26, 2012 18:40:59 GMT 3
B6K & Jakaswanga,
Unfortunately the KANU side of ODM has taken over both in personnel and actions. I mean, look at the infamous rapid response crew, Fred Gumo has taken over. The Raila tosha campaign has Ole Ntimama sitting pretty as its head.
How do you then rule out thuggish deeds like what we are witnessing both at the national and some branch levels?
At the national level we have a secretariate that is working very hard for a predetermined outcome. They just can't let the Kasarani tradition go. Look at what is going on in places like Matungu. The electorate have on three occasions thrown out Were in favor of Posho, but the party's honchos will have none of that. They want Were in whether the people like it or not. Reminds me of the mlolongo fiasco of '88. In Nairobi, if Aladwa did not stand his ground, 'Bishop' Wanjiru would be sitting in as the chair.
Me think that the party of change seems to represent change that Kenyans already lived and got tired of.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 27, 2012 19:23:49 GMT 3
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 28, 2012 22:05:40 GMT 3
Interesting: the-star.co.ke/national/national/64392-od-m-is-not-for-an-individual-says-mudavadiDEPUTY Prime Minister Musalia Mudavadi yesterday cautioned his opponents in ODM against insinuating that the party belongs to Prime Minister and Party leader Raila Odinga. Immigration minister Otieno Kajwang at the weekend said that "ODM is Raila and Raila is ODM". In a press release yesterday, Mudavadi, ODM deputy leader, dismissed suggestions that the party belongs to an individual. “We want democracy to prosper in ODM and remove any mentality that ODM belongs to an individual. We should ask ourselves what is the future of ODM beyond Raila, Mudavadi or any individual so as to lay foundations for its democratic growth into the future," said Mudavadi. Last Sunday, speaking at the funeral of Dorcas Chek Gumbo, the mother of Rarieda MP Nicholas Gumbo, Kajwang dismissed Mudavadi's proposal to have the party constitution changed to accommodate voting for the presidential flag-bearer at the county level rather than by the National Delegates Conference. Kajwang asked Mudavadi to forward his proposal to the National Executive Council for amendment of the party constitution "instead of engaging in an unnecessary public spat". “The debate on the presidential nomination modalities should be extended to the modalities of nominating the governors, senators, county women MPs and county representatives in ODM,” said Mudavadi who believes the ODM constitution needs to be brought into line with the new constitution. Mudavadi said the party was doomed if its members were made to believe that an individual was the “alpha and omega". “It is high time to sanitise politics in the country by moving away from politics of sycophancy, hatred and mudslinging to politics that address core issues affecting Kenyans. We want to divorce ODM from politics of entitlement and set standards for other parties to emulate," said Mudavadi. He said "politics of chest thumping and retribution" would not help the country develop. “From now on politics is about selling your policies to the electorate because it is not necessarily about how militant you’re but how smart you are," he said, appealing to Kenyans to break away from the traditional voting along ethnic lines. Mudavadi advised ODM delegates that the competition was not about party leadership but about who will be the flag-bearer. He said he had displayed his leadership and democratic credentials in 2007 when he supported Raila after he lost at the nominations. He urged the delegates to listen to both of them before making a decision on who will lead them to victory in the general election. “Talking about the tail not replacing the head is being economical with truth. We are not talking about who leads the party but about who will be our presidential candidate. Ours should be a strategy and formula to win the elections," Mudvadi said cautioning against intimidation.
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Post by mzee on Feb 28, 2012 22:54:47 GMT 3
Mwalimumkuu, Are you promoting ODM or KKK/G7, which is which. Make up your mind for you seem to have joined us in ODM with your love for mudavadi.
We welcome you to support Mudavadi from within and not without.
Chungwa moja maisha bora.
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Post by Mobimba on Feb 28, 2012 23:55:39 GMT 3
Mwalim,
What in the world will happen to you when Mudavadi actually quits ODM and joins URP? I bet your head will explode in joy. I hope you have medical insurance.
Kajwang is a typical sycophant and court jester. As such, Mudavadi should not take what he says so seriously. Mad men are with us.
Observation: The deaths of Michuki and Karume have been a blessing in disguise for those who love peace in Kenya. At this point, It looks like we'll get about two to three weeks of no Uhuru/ Ruto hate rallies. What I find interesting is that without the hate campaigns, both Uhuru and Ruto are completely irrelevant in the political scene. Right now, it appears they do not exist. What a breath of fresh air.
Michuki and Karume were not perfect men. However, in their deaths, Kenyans have rightly chosen to focus on their many positive leadership qualities. I pray that it does not happen anytime soon but what will be said of Uhuru Kenyatta were he to die today? What of William Ruto? Impossible as it might be, let us, for a minute, forget about the ICC accusations of rape, murder, corruption, theft etc.
Think positive. What good can be said of Uhuru and Ruto?
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Post by jakaswanga on Mar 1, 2012 20:27:43 GMT 3
I was phoning with some folks I know who attended the funeral of Gumbo's mother, to find out if Kajwang' said Raila is ODM and ODM is Raila. This is a statement which, even for those of us who come from Mbita and know GOK [Gerald Otieno Kajwang' aka Government of Kenya], is three much! Otieno Kajwang' made a name in one of the most illustrious SONU's ever, when he and the late Rumba Kinuthia steered SONU to be the de facto opposition party to Moi's KANU. But time passes on and things change. And now this mutant. Kajwang' has become what he hated most as a young man. Vintage Kariuki Chotara, giving one of his great speeches at Afraha stadium Nakuru: Moi ndiye Leo, Moi ndiye Jana, Moi ndiye Kesho, na KANU ni yote, hakuna kitu ingine. Hawa Otieno na Kinuthia, sijui ni wasichana wa SONU --kitu gani malaya huyo, wawekwe viboko na watalia KANU, baba na mama, unisamehe! Hiyo tu! Rais wa milele baba Moi!And now Kajwang' himself has no capacity to think that ODM need be a party like the ANC which can last century in opposition, and in government, survive the resignation of her godlike leader, Mandela, and soldier on. Pursuing an idea bigger than any individual. NB: Another correspondent told me he spoke in dholuo, so maybe the translator has issues with that soon to be national language, or the star editor just misquoted him to add more fire to the Raila-Mudavadi contest, and sell more papers!
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Post by b6k on Mar 3, 2012 22:03:42 GMT 3
Posted yesterday on Musalia Mudavadi's Facebook page: "TIME TO STOP INDIVIDUALIZING POLITICAL PARTIES Reforms & democracy can only thrive if members of political parties out-grow the past mentality of individualizing political parties & lay institutional foundations for the future prosperity of politics. Some people think the new constitution only affects others but not them. ODM fought for it & we cannot divorce from it in our practices. Reform & democracy should not be used as mere clichés to gain popularity but should be seen as fundamental principles in practice. It is not enough to proclaim ourselves democrats & reformists; we must breath & live the practice without deception for the sake of the country & future generations. I surely do not want to be remembered as a leader who said so much but did so little. It is not in my nature to live by rhetoric. Let us embrace hygienic politics that is devoid of negative labeling of opponents. I offer politics of bringing dignity & humility in the political process. This is my approach to politics. ODM must embrace, nurture & allow democracy to prosper within if it does not want to fall victim of lack of democracy (dictatorship) & individualizing the party as this may result in its death (as in the case of many independence & post independence political parties). As ODM members we must ask ourselves what is the future of ODM beyond myself, Raila or any individual & lay the foundation for the party’s prosperity for posterity so as to institutionalize the party & protect it from being a vehicle, “bus” for individuals. Members should not be lured into thinking that an individual is the alpha & omega of a party for then that party has no future & ODM members must safeguard against such notion. It is time to sanitize politics in the country by moving away from politics of sycophancy, mudslinging & hatred (causes of post election violence) to politics that address core issues affecting Kenyans. We want to divorce ODM from politics of entitlement & set standards for other parties to emulate. We have seen that politics of chest thumbing & retribution will not take this country anywhere. From now on politics is about selling your policies to the electorate because it is not necessarily about how militant you’re but how smart you are. Party politics & practices are a reflection of how a party shall run the country when in leadership. Talking about the tail not replacing the head is being economical with truth. We are not talking about who leads the party but about who will be our presidential candidate. Ours should be a strategy & formula to win the elections & let us not try an intimidate anyone exercising their democratic right to further positive political growth. Kenyans let us break away from the traditional voting pattern which is (unfortunately) along tribal lines but look at the qualities of the person we are voting for to help in making politics hygiene yet liberal & progressive in the country". Over to you, Rapid Response Team...
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 3, 2012 22:51:06 GMT 3
B6K,
The Rapid Response Team died the same day it was constituted. How do you constitute an arbitration team without consulting the other party on the membership of the team? The team had no any other agenda but to push Musalia over the cliff, to which he has said NO and stood strong, as you can tell from his latest statement.
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Post by tnk on Mar 4, 2012 5:43:18 GMT 3
B6K, The Rapid Response Team died the same day it was constituted. How do you constitute an arbitration team without consulting the other party on the membership of the team? The team had no any other agenda but to push Musalia over the cliff, to which he has said NO and stood strong, as you can tell from his latest statement. mwalimumkuu how about also objectively critically looking at the conundrum facing the G7 and KANU Gideon sums it in this statement == Moi said in Mombasa that while Ruto and other members of the G7 Alliance display their party flags, Kanu’s flag is nowhere to be seen. “He doesn’t want to antagonize the others because there in Rift Valley, Kanu will bring problems to Ruto. == uhuru wasting our time In other words if KANU joins G7, then ruto's gameplan from 2005 is rendered hopeless i.e he is toast. but if uhuru gets into G7 outside of KANU i.e abandons KANU then he enters strictly as a GEMA warlord and not the national leader he aspires to be put simply he either kills his career or that of ruto. hehehe guess which way he'll chose? the only way out is engineer yet the mother of all cons ..... again .... because there is simply no way to truthfully handle this. a con will have to be played. am just waiting to see what it will be. but yes do start focusing on your internal issues, otherwise .....
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Post by b6k on Mar 4, 2012 7:38:46 GMT 3
@ TNK, tsk tsk. This thread is about the spat between MM & RAO & the impending ODM split. There are plenty of G7 threads on Jukwaa where you could've added your missive. As your response was diversionary in nature, let me give you a hand below....
@ Mwalimumkuu, after further investigations on the web I'm beginning to think the Facebook site that allegedly belongs to MM bearing the above statement is fake.
Here's why: There are at least 3 Facebook pages that purport to be Musalia Mudavadi's. The first, "Hon Musalia Mudavadi For President 2012" posts his full CV & is moderately active. This may be his actual site as most of these MP's are so vain they dare not drop the title "honorable" even when referring to themselves. The second Facebook page "Musalia Mudavadi Beyond 2012" also posts his full CV & is a very active site. However it appears way too active & the posts purportedly updated by MM himself are way too chummy & don't really fit his stuffed suit image. The updates are sent either while he's out mashinani meeting & interacting with regular folk & delegates, or immediately after he's returned from such trips. Then there's a third site simply called "Musalia Mudavadi" that has no action at all.
So if the second site with the statement I posted earlier is a fake site, then MM is clearly missing the plot as it appears the public want him to actively seek the highest office in the land, judging from comments therein. Also, if it is fake then KTN was duped as well since they quoted the above statement as FACT in their news bulletin yesterday.
Any real MM followers out there who can confirm MM's real Facebook identity?
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 4, 2012 7:58:15 GMT 3
B6K, It is my understanding that Mudavadi has been very livid at Kajwang's pronouncements. He has talked about it privately and is going to address it publicly next week when he resumes his county-to-county campaigns that were paused in respect of the two departed leaders Karume and Michuki. Meanwhile you must have noticed that Kwendo Opanga (himself a very close friend of Mudavadi - for lack of a better description) addressed this very issue in today's Sunday Nation. This makes me believe that camp Mudavadi is very much on its toes and are not leaving anything to chance and could have been very much in charge of the facebook statement. Here is Opanga's article: www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Kajwang+declaration+and+the+making+of+a+dictator++/-/440808/1358786/-/hchy2c/-/index.html
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Post by tnk on Mar 4, 2012 13:29:33 GMT 3
;D
b6k
noted
however my point remains that, the so called interest on a much welcome internal democratic process is in itself (to use your words) diversionary since your?? own parties are stuck in the mud so to speak.
the issue of mudavadi going for the top seat within ODM is healthy
i just hope that mudavadi has actually truly weighed his options in doing so.
by this i mean lets reflect on what midiwo said sometime back
i.e mudavadi has to say why he thinks he is a better candidate than raila and vice versa i.e raila say why he thinks he is a better candidate
and then comes the reality, having declared their reasons, then whoever wins the contest, must be pragmatic to realise that the differences reflected in their campaigns essentially mean they are at cross purposes and therefore can imply that they perhaps may not be the best running mates to each other (recall obama and clinton), because logic dictates that if they had differences but are willing to work together, then the differences are harnessed to complement each other and run not as rivals but as partnership drawing on their synergy. the moment you run against each other implies that one or both have significant differences requiring that one be free(d) from the other
simply put, this gives whoever emerges as winner of this contest, the right or option to chose a different running mate.
my view is that despite the democratic freedoms, these two gents can make more progress complementing their strengths as candidate and running mate, than as rivals
whoever loses this contest must be prepared to slip from number 2 as well. the lieutenants of each candidate will ensure that.
to put this in perspective
in case of total fallout (worst case), which of these two can move on to form a new party and carry his "independent" support base intact?
i really don't think mudavadi has his backyard totally under his control and any movement out will split support with the likes of wamalwa, jirongo and kombo or similar who have been waiting on the sidelines. his only option would be to jump into any predesigned vehicle like UDF where his clout is significantly diminished by the schemers in control of the vehicle
its just not a bright gamble but i hope he knows what he's doing
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