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Post by adongo23456 on May 29, 2012 4:23:01 GMT 3
I will respond to this later but I want to tell Mr. Magutt that we are Kenyans by birth. We love our country. We have invested in that country from day one in more ways than one. There is no rush to invest now as Magutt alleges. If anybody is patronising, it is this Magutt fellow. Thankfully we do not need his permission to be Kenyans. We will not ask for it. We can have this discussion and deal with the tons of falsehoods and strereotypes loaded in it. Not a problem. Here we go with Mr. Magutt. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-/440808/1415322/-/lrkgxxz/-/index.html
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Post by mank on May 29, 2012 6:41:08 GMT 3
Kenya is not among the most attractive investment destinations in the world. It is a very frustrating place to invest. That's my personal experience. Things are changing, but it remains a painful place for investors. Diaspora invests there because it is home!
[/b].
This group should realise that investing at home is a demonstration of patriotism, and they are not doing anyone a favour.[/quote]
This writer seems to imply that there is a place for European "donors" to pontificate, patronize and threaten with sanctions, which the diaspora should not trespass. ... and, fine, the diaspora is not doing anyone a favour by investing at home ... they are just demonstrating their patriotism. Can patriots ask anything of their country without being insulted by idiots who happen to carry elite titles ahead of their names?
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Post by mzee on May 29, 2012 10:07:37 GMT 3
If you dont know who Magutt is is, have a look.
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Post by phil on May 29, 2012 10:19:22 GMT 3
Magutt is telling you guys the truth! I can appreciate that most diasporans will not like what he is saying but I totally agree with some of his sentiments.
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Post by stibin on May 29, 2012 15:28:56 GMT 3
I don’t like some of the dismissive and mean phrases used by the writer but describing the piece as “ Completely despicable nonsense” looks like exaggeration. For heaven’s sake Magutt only mentions some two “diaspora demands “ which he logically explains.
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Post by mank on May 29, 2012 16:16:49 GMT 3
I don’t like some of the dismissive and mean phrases used the writer but describing the piece as “ Completely despicable nonsense” looks like exaggeration. For heaven’s sake Magutt only mentions some two “diaspora demands “ which he logically explains. I think the titling of the thread is apt. You cannot term blatant smears of a people as logical explanations of a problem. Difficult problems between multiple parties must be resolved through respectful dialogue, not through contemptuous decrees against select parties in the problem. Any reasonable person will understand that Kenya cannot put up polling stations in all 50 US states of the USA, staffed with IEBC-hired electoral officers. However, it is reasonable also for the diaspora to demand more polling stations than may be located at the embassy in Washington DC and the consulate in California. The fact that the US has historically made use of its embassies, consulates and military facilities abroad to enfranchise its citizens successfully is not sufficient basis to claim that Kenya should not broaden its services beyond the embassy and its consulates: if Magutt was reasonable he would realize that you cannot equate logistics across Kenya to logistics across the US - the latter is a vast country, while the former is just like one of the 50 states. So, most Americans in Kenya can drive to an embassy or consulate, vote and drive back to their residences within a day. The same cannot be said of Kenyans in the US. So, while it may not be logistically feasible to place a polling station within "walking distance" (which I doubt anyone ever suggested), it is not sufficient to install polling stations in one building in Washington DC and another in California either. The scenario creates an opportunity for creative solution searching, not for insulting remarks from someone who seems to have hidden agendas to score. On his second point, about the diaspora claiming that their citizenship is God-given and could not have been retracted, it is not clear to me why there is a debate over the issue - if the government would avail the the system, and spell out the procedure for reclaiming those rights where they are lost, and make that process as smooth and convenient as it ought to be per the spirit of the constitution, then there would not be debate over the matter. I think the issue is not really whether there should be reapplication or not .... the diaspora is rightfully concerned that what may finally surface as the mechanism for reapplying may in effect take away from a good number of people what the constitution has given.
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Post by OtishOtish on May 29, 2012 16:28:49 GMT 3
At the end of the DN article, it says: "Mr Magutt is a lecturer in politics and international studies, Kenyatta University".
Looking at the wesbites of the relevant departments (e.g. political studies), using the "search" facility at the top-level KU website, etc. show no such person as Joseph Magutt. Can anyone confirm that he is indeed an employee of KU? If so, in what department and doing exactly what?
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Post by podp on May 29, 2012 17:01:43 GMT 3
As a Diasporian we have a suggestion on voting. e-voting is the best and cheapest solution. In particular, it will be cheaper than trying to run 47 voting centres for Diaspora voters in say USA or Europe or any one country e.g. India
The second issue he has makes him appear the patronizing one. Did any Kenyan send an application to be born a Kenyan?
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Post by adongo23456 on May 29, 2012 22:16:13 GMT 3
Folks,
These are my views on the magutt piece:
A few things folks like Magutt and our good friend phil should know.
1. The idea that Kenyans who live in Kenya can in any way shape or form define the Kenyanness of those living outside is pretty backward. Like people have said already folks out here born in Kenya are Kenyans by birth and we do not need permits from the Magutts to allow us to be Kenyans just as they need nothing from us to be Kenyans.
2. In this day and age when the whole world is talking about the world as a global village we all live and work or go to school in many parts of the globe. We also, thanks to the internet and the cell phone revolution have constant contact with our relatives friends and compatriots very often. I probably talk more with my nephew Willis who is also the guy managing our small investments at home more often than I talk to my work mates in Toronto.
In fact it is safe to say that I had much less contact with my family while I was a student in Nairobi University and when working as a lecturer at Mombasa than I have now when I am 10,000 km away in the good city of Toronto. So who is to tell me what I can do or not do with my Kenyan friends, business colleagues and relatives?
3. Kenyans in the diaspora are putting big money in their economy to improve themselves, their families and their country. The numbers speak for themselves. These folks are already voting with their cash. They value that country. Why then should we get lectures from the likes of Mugutt.
4. On the issue of voting there is really nothing to foam in the mouth about. To begin with the notion that Kenyans in diaspora means Kenyans in the US is just one of those outdated concepts. There are very many Kenyans in Africa and Asia. They too are Kenyans in diaspora.
Here in Canada we have a good number of Kenyans. I am yet to hear them make demands on how the voting should work. In fact the IEBC is so far behind it is not conceivable to me that there will be any diaspora voting. The IEBC is just overwhelmed with the task at hand.
Now, if and when the voting process is in place there is a very good reason Kenyans do not want to vote in the embassies. It is not like we have not seen what the government of the day can do to steal elections in broad daylight. Our embassies are not that different from Harambee House. We have all sorts of political mandarins out here who would do anything in their power to rig elections and stuff boxes. Magutt at least should know that. I am assuming he was a grown person in 2007.
What may be needed is to have an efficient e-voting system that is credible and fool proof. That is not rocket science.
In essence Magutt is trying speak for us and then criticize his own fantasy. Some of us are out here precisely because we can speak and stand up for ourselves. I am not aware of any demands by Kenyans not apply for their citizenship. They have been asking to be told what the process is and when it becomes operational. In reality the percentage of Kenyans out here who have are citizens of other countries and would need dual citizenship is a very small minority.
The majority of Kenyans out here have only one citizenship, that of Kenya but they cannot vote because all the debes for people to vote are in Kenya and none out here. That is the problem that needs to be solved instead of inventing sideshows to insult people. Which reminds me of something.
Then I found some utter rubbish from Magutt like the statement below.
“But life is not that hunky-dory for some ‘diasporians’. A number lives in the underworld, unable to come back home or make a decent life for themselves.
Some have to make do with multiple odd jobs to make ends meet. Others have fallen into modern-day slavery, especially those who found their way to the Middle East.
Besides the pitiable house orderlies who reportedly endure insufferable brutality from their employers, some athletes who have settled abroad are no better.
As a prerequisite to acquiring new citizenship, they are compelled to adopt new names whose meaning they do not understand, and which they cannot even pronounce correctly.”
I know this kind of low life thinking finds its way in the hateful websites where people compete about who is better off, those in Kenya or those abroad. Such nonsense should be left to those low life websites. It is not the business of Magutt or anybody else to tell us what jobs people should do or actually do.
I cannot belittle anybody in the country who is surviving as a manual labourer, a shamba boy, or the myriad quacks in Nairobi who claim to hold several degrees and have no work to make a living and run from office to office to score some lunch money. If you can work hard and make a living down there, you should be proud of yourself (may be not the quacks and con artists) If anybody can hustle out here and make a living they should be very proud of themselves. It is not easy. They do not need lectures from ignorant judgmental people like Magutt.
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Post by OtishOtish on May 30, 2012 0:08:19 GMT 3
I cannot belittle anybody in the country who is surviving as a manual labourer, a shamba boy, or the myriad quacks in Nairobi who claim to hold several degrees and have no work to make a living and run from office to office to score some lunch money. If you can work hard and make a living down there, you should be proud of yourself (may be not the quacks and con artists) If anybody can hustle out here and make a living they should be very proud of themselves. It is not easy. They do not need lectures from ignorant judgmental people like Magutt. Quite so. So what if life is not "hunk-dory" or someone has to work multiple jobs? It is those very people who are struggling every which way that are sending back the billions, usually to ungrateful relatives. The worship of wealth and high position has a lot to do with where Kenya is; thieves are raised high (provided they are stealing big), whereas the "small" honest person is looked down on. We have a long way to go. We should in fact be quite proud of people who are a long way from home, perhaps struggling, but doing their utmost for both themselves and for people in Kenya. As for Mr. Magutt, what exactly he does is far from clear. He seems to be one of these people for whom the web was invented---set up a blog, announce yourself as an expert in this and that, and have some politicians pay for something. A self-appointed expert and prophet. Who exactly is J. Magutt? What are his accomplishments that permit him to look down on others? What are his qualifications? What is his employment record? What exactly is his day-job right now?Seek, and you will be surprised.
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Post by Omwenga on May 30, 2012 0:42:43 GMT 3
I will respond to this later but I want to tell Mr. Magutt that we are Kenyans by birth. We love our country. We have invested in that country from day one in more ways than one. There is no rush to invest now as Magutt alleges. If anybody is patronising, it is this Magutt fellow. Thankfully we do not need his permission to be Kenyans. We will not ask for it. We can have this discussion and deal with the tons of falsehoods and strereotypes loaded in it. Not a problem. Here we go with Mr. Magutt. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-/440808/1415322/-/lrkgxxz/-/index.html Adongo,I have read both Magutt's piece and your more detailed rebuttal below. Other than the condescending attitude in part of his analysis, I don't see anything to disagree with what the fellow has had to say. You have made a strong rebuttal but these are not views that cannot be both accommodated within the same thinking.
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Post by adongo23456 on May 30, 2012 2:46:48 GMT 3
I will respond to this later but I want to tell Mr. Magutt that we are Kenyans by birth. We love our country. We have invested in that country from day one in more ways than one. There is no rush to invest now as Magutt alleges. If anybody is patronising, it is this Magutt fellow. Thankfully we do not need his permission to be Kenyans. We will not ask for it. We can have this discussion and deal with the tons of falsehoods and strereotypes loaded in it. Not a problem. Here we go with Mr. Magutt. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-/440808/1415322/-/lrkgxxz/-/index.html Adongo,I have read both Magutt's piece and your more detailed rebuttal below. Other than the condescending attitude in part of his analysis, I don't see anything to disagree with what the fellow has had to say. You have made a strong rebuttal but these are not views that cannot be both accommodated within the same thinking. omwenga,I have to run now. I have stated my piece but I will say a few more things before I go. First of I am not aware of Kenyans in diaspora yet meeting anywhere and collectively or even in any significant way making concrete proposals leave alone demands about the way elections should be handled out here. There has been meetings here and there where people may have made suggestions, good and/or bad but really nothing to bind us with. Now for this Magutt fellow to arrogate himself the role of defining "demands" from the diaspora Kenyans on voting and then go on to "pontificate" about the alleged demands is just self serving opportunism. Don't pigeon hole Kenyans in diaspora and then give us lectures. As I said the IEBC is too confused to figure out the Diaspora voting business. We should be lucky if those guys pull off a well run fair electoral process in the country in the next GE. This thing is over their heads. Forget about Diaspora voting in the next GE. The IEBC is unable to comprehend how that can work leave to try and implement it. That is the reality. The other thing I pointed out is the arrogant nonsense of talking about Kenyans in diaspora not having it "hunky dory" yada yada and working in miserable jobs. Who told Magutt we are having it "hunky dory"? Are people living in Kenya having it "hunky dory"? Is Mr. Magutt having a "hunky dory" life? May be not. People are out here to make a living and for the most part Kenyans are very well respected as very hard working people out here. Don't patronise us about what we do. If I need to sweep the streets to make a living I will and actually I could get paid better than Mr. Magutt the lecturer at KU. I could even have a better place to live. If I have to work night shift in a gas station to make a living I will for myself and my family. That is none of Magutt's business. We have to get a way from the retarded thinking that the only good job is where you wear a tie and a nylon (or Gikomba woolen) suit while starving. Give me my work boots and I will work in a factory or a farm and make pretty good money. Mr Magutt's piece is fully loaded with reprehensible stereotypes. Shame on him.
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Post by OtishOtish on May 30, 2012 3:10:59 GMT 3
Omwenga: The man may have been trying to make some point, but where does all this come in?
But life is not that hunky-dory for some ‘diasporians’. A number lives in the underworld, unable to come back home or make a decent life for themselves.
Some have to make do with multiple odd jobs to make ends meet. Others have fallen into modern-day slavery, especially those who found their way to the Middle East.
Besides the pitiable house orderlies who reportedly endure insufferable brutality from their employers, some athletes who have settled abroad are no better.
As a prerequisite to acquiring new citizenship, they are compelled to adopt new names whose meaning they do not understand, and which they cannot even pronounce correctly.
Why the contempt for people who are simply trying to their best in a tough world? And why from Mr. Magutt especially? Who's he? What's he done? Mr Magutt ought to be very careful; such insulting attitudes might cause some "diasporans" to do their homework on him, and he might end up rather humiliated.
If your Magutt friend has a legitimate point to make, he should make it without insulting people or looking down at them. As it is, the hight and mighty who have always dragged thic country down, which is why some of them are in deep **** right now.
Adongo: You wrote, "Mr. Magutt the lecturer at KU". I'm intrigued. In which KU department is Mr. Magutt a lecturer? What are his academic qualifications for such a position? Exactly when, and in what position, was he employed by the universities he claims to have worked for? What information out there, that is frequently cited by the media, did not come from Mr. Magutt? If we get some answers, then we might be content to reflect on our 10 menial jobs and lie low like envelopes. But it might be better for Mr Magutt to reflect on the preceding questions and then lie low like an envelope.
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Post by toddo on May 30, 2012 3:43:56 GMT 3
I believe that this is the same Magutt who was a KUSA (student organization) wannabe leader sometime in mid 90's. He had very little to offer then. And he seems not to have been wiser either. Empty debe! I am so surprised that Nation Newspapers has given him a platform. What happened to good editorship?
I fully agree with Adongo. Some of us in the diaspora don't care about the writings of Magutt. We work hard for our families in the diaspora and at home. And we support our families in Kenya as we do our small part in helping the economy by investing and offering employment to many Kenyans. It is apity that someone who is in politics cannot even appreciate that. Instead, he showcases his ignorance and poor writing by falsely attacking Kenyans. Did he get denied a visa thereby causing his bitterness?
Just thinking.
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Post by Omwenga on May 30, 2012 4:30:59 GMT 3
Omwenga: The man may have been trying to make some point, but where does all this come in? But life is not that hunky-dory for some ‘diasporians’. A number lives in the underworld, unable to come back home or make a decent life for themselves.
Some have to make do with multiple odd jobs to make ends meet. Others have fallen into modern-day slavery, especially those who found their way to the Middle East.
Besides the pitiable house orderlies who reportedly endure insufferable brutality from their employers, some athletes who have settled abroad are no better.
As a prerequisite to acquiring new citizenship, they are compelled to adopt new names whose meaning they do not understand, and which they cannot even pronounce correctly.Why the contempt for people who are simply trying to their best in a tough world? And why from Mr. Magutt especially? Who's he? What's he done? Mr Magutt ought to be very careful; such insulting attitudes might cause some "diasporans" to do their homework on him, and he might end up rather humiliated. If your Magutt friend has a legitimate point to make, he should make it without insulting people or looking down at them. As it is, the hight and mighty who have always dragged thic country down, which is why some of them are in deep **** right now. Adongo: You wrote, "Mr. Magutt the lecturer at KU". I'm intrigued. In which KU department is Mr. Magutt a lecturer? What are his academic qualifications for such a position? Exactly when, and in what position, was he employed by the universities he claims to have worked for? What information out there, that is frequently cited by the media, did not come from Mr. Magutt? If we get some answers, then we might be content to reflect on our 10 menial jobs and lie low like envelopes. But it might be better for Mr Magutt to reflect on the preceding questions and then lie low like an envelope. Otishotish,I condemned the condescending attitude as well and some of the points he made could have been put better or even in context but overall I see what he was trying to convey and fyi I don't know him.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on May 30, 2012 6:54:21 GMT 3
Who exactly is J. Magutt? What are his accomplishments that permit him to look down on others? What are his qualifications? What is his employment record? What exactly is his day-job right now?Seek, and you will be surprised. Not sure why you insist on knowing who Magutt is and what value it would add to this not so important debate. Now that you insist, Magutt is some administrator at KU, a former student leader and one of the many former Eshiwani boys (moles) as they used to be known back in those days. Here he is, around 3.40 onwards.
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Post by adongo23456 on May 30, 2012 7:25:49 GMT 3
Who exactly is J. Magutt? What are his accomplishments that permit him to look down on others? What are his qualifications? What is his employment record? What exactly is his day-job right now?Seek, and you will be surprised. Not sure why you insist on knowing who Magutt is and what value it would add to this not so important debate. Now that you insist, Magutt is some administrator at KU, a former student leader and one of the many former Eshiwani boys (moles) as they used to be known back in those days. Here he is, around 3.40 onwards. mwalimumkuu,Below is Joseph Magutt's title and job description provided by the Daily Nation at the bottom of the article we are discussing. I didn't make this up. Mr Magutt is a lecturer in politics and international studies, Kenyatta University. (email@josephmagutt.com).Now you say he is "some administrator at KU". Are you suggesting Magutt and the DN are trying to dupe their readers? Somebody already hinted to the student "leadership" days of Mr. Magutt. It seems that was true. "Eshiwani boys"? Poor Magutt.
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Post by mank on May 30, 2012 7:39:08 GMT 3
It would be helpful to extend this man an invitation to Jukwaa so he can come and settle the issues he has with diaspora. I do not believe he was just making a point on unreasonable demands - his insulting digression did not have a place in making such a point. There must be something about the diaspora that does not sit well with him. Poor guy.
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Post by OtishOtish on May 30, 2012 14:58:35 GMT 3
Below is Joseph Magutt's title and job description provided by the Daily Nation at the bottom of the article we are discussing. I didn't make this up. Mr Magutt is a lecturer in politics and international studies, Kenyatta University. (email@josephmagutt.com).Now you say he is "some administrator at KU". Are you suggesting Magutt and the DN are trying to dupe their readers? Administrator of what? Can someone actually post here his job title and employment dates? I hope we are not adding more stories to the ones he has already told us. And for anyone who believes he is a lecturer at KU, in which department and since when?
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Post by OtishOtish on May 30, 2012 15:00:31 GMT 3
Not sure why you insist on knowing who Magutt is and what value it would add to this not so important debate. ? He has been insulting people on the basis of what they do for a living. It seems only fair that we should ask what he does and why he thinks it's so great, especially when it looks to be different from what he claims all over the place.
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Post by roughrider on May 30, 2012 15:24:18 GMT 3
Poor Magutt, we will soon know what underwear he buys and how many chickens his mother keeps... seriously, it was poor judgement on his part to lace otherwise weighty questions with demeaning language. But he has a right to discuss electoral process and citizenship.
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Post by mank on May 30, 2012 16:09:45 GMT 3
Poor Magutt, we will soon know what underwear he buys and how many chickens his mother keeps... seriously, it was poor judgement on his part to lace otherwise weighty questions with demeaning language. But he has a right to discuss electoral process and citizenship.
This is more than poor judgement, RR. Its a revelation of something within the man. If his outrage moves people to find out about his underwear or his mother's chicken, that's fair. No one asked anything about him until he asked for attention. Of course like all human beings, even foreigners, he can discuss the electoral process and citizenship. When he discusses people and their issues, especially in insulting ways, its a fight he calls by himself. There can be no defense for this foolishly displayed malice.
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Post by barmasaiengkeiyo on May 30, 2012 19:39:44 GMT 3
WHO IS JOSEPH MAGUTT???
"Somebody already hinted to the student "leadership" days of Mr. Magutt. It seems that was true. "Eshiwani boys"? Poor Magutt."....
You are damn right. when i was a first year at KU, Magutt was a Fourth year student. He was among a group of eshiwani moles who would be whisked to State house to see Moi. He was in the group of Amateshe, Osano,Ngunjiri and some Kisii guy who were always licking eshiwani ass and selling out students. He was not exactly an intelligent guy as he has achieved nothing in his time in KU. he calls himself " reader in politics and international studies, motivational speaker and lecturer in both graduate and undergraduate programs in 5 Kenyan universities".......Only in kenya!can people believe such rubbish as Magutt.... He calls Ruto in one of his useless articles "a Sui generis"...wtf? ati Ruto is a genius!!!....
AND of course.....with all the Ruwenzori and Nyayo 1 scandals hanging around his neck!
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Post by roughrider on Jun 2, 2012 14:31:58 GMT 3
This is more than poor judgement, RR. Its a revelation of something within the man. Really? well, your opinion. I think it might be of better consequence to write to the newspaper with a response to his article. Innuendo about his character - as seems to be part of the irate response here - is simply self defeating. Its not much different from what he did. But, to each his own.
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Post by mank on Jun 2, 2012 17:45:05 GMT 3
This is more than poor judgement, RR. Its a revelation of something within the man. Really? well, your opinion. I think it might be of better consequence to write to the newspaper with a response to his article.
Innuendo about his character - as seems to be part of the irate response here - is simply self defeating. Its not much different from what he did.
But, to each his own.Yes, of course that's my opinion. Whose opinions do you argue? I thought they were yours as well. Reading deeper into what someone argues is not "innuendo about character". It is inference. I write here because this is where I found the story, and I believe the story is here because there are people who care about it. Who are you to lecture me as to where to take my opinions? Why are you not lecturing the person who started this thread?
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