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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jul 31, 2012 8:33:05 GMT 3
Ndugu Oloo, This is bizzare to say the least. Let me try to get this straight. So Miguna writes a response to his critics and gives it to you to post in Jukwaa. Miguna then reads the responses to his piece. Instead of Miguna responding to the issues raised on his piece, Miguna decides to edit his earlier post which Jukwaa members have respond to and effectively changes his earlier piece. This means the piece Jukwaa members have responded to no longer exists. If this is not unethical I don't know what is. If we accept this as the norm in Jukwaa we will be abusing the intelligence of our members. It means anybody joining the debate after the revised version will not understand what people were reponding to. You startle me. As the administrator of this board, I know, looking at the security log, of how many times Jukwaa members MODIFY their original posts. I could post as proof, how many times you Adongo revise your pieces even in the course of a single evening. Digital writings are like the proverbial river which you never step on twice. If we want to talk about honesty let us be candid right here. Incidentally, the same piece was submitted to the Nation, Standard, Star, People and other mainstream media outlets. I have been known to resubmit articles and op-eds to the same. Here on Jukwaa I do it all the time. Onyango Oloo |
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Post by topnotch on Jul 31, 2012 10:00:52 GMT 3
Lincoln, I find it very interesting that Raila would suspend Miguna without any pay and without any reason and only wait to hear from Quarcoo that Miguna needed money for him to take appropriate action. That to me sounds very odd, especially for a man who had experienced similar situations before. As regards political volunteers, we may live in different planets, but I know for sure that there is a reason why they are called political volunteers. Are you familiar with The Employment Act 2008? I guess not. Miguna refused to sign his employment contract, and was effectively on a monthly contract. Read things. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 31, 2012 13:57:59 GMT 3
Ndugu Oloo, This is bizzare to say the least. Let me try to get this straight. So Miguna writes a response to his critics and gives it to you to post in Jukwaa. Miguna then reads the responses to his piece. Instead of Miguna responding to the issues raised on his piece, Miguna decides to edit his earlier post which Jukwaa members have respond to and effectively changes his earlier piece. This means the piece Jukwaa members have responded to no longer exists. If this is not unethical I don't know what is. If we accept this as the norm in Jukwaa we will be abusing the intelligence of our members. It means anybody joining the debate after the revised version will not understand what people were reponding to. You startle me. As the administrator of this board, I know, looking at the security log, of how many times Jukwaa members MODIFY their original posts. I could post as proof, how many times you Adongo revise your pieces even in the course of a single evening. Digital writings are like the proverbial river which you never step on twice. If we want to talk about honesty let us be candid right here. Incidentally, the same piece was submitted to the Nation, Standard, Star, People and other mainstream media outlets. I have been known to resubmit articles and op-eds to the same. Here on Jukwaa I do it all the time. Onyango OlooI don't want to drag this on and on and provide a sideshow which some people would love. Yes we all edit and re-edit our pieces. I often add pictures and new angles to things I post. What I would never do and has never done is to post a story and read responses to my story, then "respond" to the issues raised by Jukwaa members by going back to edit my original story. That is just unethical unless people have to go back and revise their responses to the original story. What we all do when we are responding to comments and criticisms raised by Jukwaa members on what we post is to offer a rebuttal to those issues raised and that can go on forever. You said in your post that Miguna's revised version also offers a rebuttal to issues that had been raised in the thread. Why can't Miguna just offer such rebuttal as we all do or if he is "too big to post" provide the rebuttals to you to post so we have a honest discussion. That is all I am asking for and it is very far from saying people should not revise their pieces. It is one thing to submit a story to a newspaper or whoever and then realize there are additional things you want to add or you made some mistakes and re-submit a different version. We do that all the time. What we can't do and shouldn't do here in Jukwaa is to create a new way of responding to issues raised on a thread we have posted by revising what we had posted before. That would be like going to an exam room doing the exam with others and then going home and re-submitting a revised version because you realize you made mistakes. It is called cheating and it is not encouraged in schools. Anyway I am going to see you soon and we can talk about some of these things. |
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Post by job on Jul 31, 2012 14:38:49 GMT 3
For someone who the Rt Hon PM claims has been paid off by his enemies (including the NSIS), how is it then that Miguna's "vacation" appears to be taking place at spartan college dormitories in Canada?
"With his name in Kenya’s headlines every day, the towering 6-foot-4, Mr. Miguna, in bright, flowing African robes, sits thousands of kilometres away, in a mostly empty cafeteria on the campus of Seneca College in suburban Toronto. He is staying in the college’s dormitory with his wife and five children on what he says was a preplanned summer vacation."
This puts paid to the claim by R911 that Miguna is now a rich man. In fact given that the PDF downloads of his book topped over 50,000 I don't think he will make as much money as he might have hoped for in KE. I would imagine whatever windfall Miguna came by to enable him to make the Canada trip had more to do with an advanced payment from his publishers than the so-called NSIS pay-off. I seem to have missed this. There's a golden rule not to do press (media) interviews while vacationing. That's precisely because a lot of subtle side-messages may derail the actual interview. I also didn't initially notice the significant effect Miguna's revision had on his original response - pointed by Adongo. The unorthodox editing not only cleaned up the sexist language meted towards Sarah Elderkin, but also introduced fresh rebuttals of subsequent issues raised here in JUKWAA. What a good testing ground - the final product has now been dispatched to mainstream media. I can let that in-house unethical act slide given the clean-up effort still failed to cover all the loopholes raised by Sarah. The point is - despite Miguna's clever injection of a conflating he-said, she-said situation (Miguna's word on one hand versus Sarah and Susan Kabutu's on another) - not all LIES exposed in the memoir have been addressed. That's going to be a tall order. It would take another book to rebut all inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and deficient candor noted in the memoir. It's also worth noting that in many of Miguna's other wild allegations (such as - Caroli has amassed Sh 10 billion worth of assets) he cunningly attributes his basis as emanating from "credible sources". That's a classic devise in a propagandist's tool box. I believe as this continues to unfold, we are yet to unearth many of these tactics...unethical revisions, cover-up gizmos, and well timed catch-phrases...we are all eyes! By the way, thanks to a profoundly loyal friend (Oloo), JUKWAA remains an important cog in Miguna's PR wheel. I suspect JUKWAA is quite important to him; it would probably crush him if it weren't. I beg we give the Admin a little break - he is only being human...not willing to let/see his blog become the launchpad for his pal's lynching. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 31, 2012 15:05:33 GMT 3
For someone who the Rt Hon PM claims has been paid off by his enemies (including the NSIS), how is it then that Miguna's "vacation" appears to be taking place at spartan college dormitories in Canada?
"With his name in Kenya’s headlines every day, the towering 6-foot-4, Mr. Miguna, in bright, flowing African robes, sits thousands of kilometres away, in a mostly empty cafeteria on the campus of Seneca College in suburban Toronto. He is staying in the college’s dormitory with his wife and five children on what he says was a preplanned summer vacation."
This puts paid to the claim by R911 that Miguna is now a rich man. In fact given that the PDF downloads of his book topped over 50,000 I don't think he will make as much money as he might have hoped for in KE. I would imagine whatever windfall Miguna came by to enable him to make the Canada trip had more to do with an advanced payment from his publishers than the so-called NSIS pay-off. I seem to have missed this. There's a golden rule not to do press (media) interviews while vacationing. That's precisely because a lot of subtle side-messages may derail the actual interview. I also didn't initially notice the significant effect Miguna's revision had on his original response - pointed by Adongo. The unorthodox editing not only cleaned up the sexist language meted towards Sarah Elderkin, but also introduced fresh rebuttals of subsequent issues raised here in JUKWAA. I can let that unethical act slide given the clean-up effort still failed to cover all the loopholes raised by Sarah. The point is - despite Miguna's clever injection of a conflating he-said, she-said situation (Miguna's word on one hand versus Sarah and Susan Kabutu's on another) - not all LIES exposed in the memoir have been addressed. That's going to be a tall order. It would take another book to rebut all inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and deficient candor noted in the memoir. It's also worth noting that in many of Miguna's wild allegations (such as - Caroli has amassed Sh 10 billion worth of assets) he cunningly attributes his source as "credible sources". That's a classic devise in a propagandist's tool box. I believe as this continues to unfold, we are yet to unearth many of these tactics...unethical revisions, cover-up gizmos, and well timed catch-phrases...we are all eyes! By the way, thanks to a profoundly loyal friend ( Oloo), JUKWAA remains an important cog in Miguna's PR wheel. I suspect JUKWAA is quite important to him. I beg we give Oloo a little break - he is only being human...not willing to let/see his blog become the launchpad for his pal's (verbal) lynching. Thanks for putting your fingers on the issue. Miguna's original story was loaded with sexist innuendo towards Sarah Elderkin whom he classified as a Raila groupie. In that version Miguna hardly made any effort to actually respond to the issues raised by Ms Elderkin. I pointed out the suffocating sexism in Miguna's post and indicated that since I hadn't read the book I did not have much to say about it but I was disappointed with the sexist approach Miguna was adopting. Miguna then provides an an elleged "rebuttal" by editting his earlier version and as you have pointed out tries to clean up the sexist overtones. I found that dishonest because Miguna did not even bother to engage those of us who thought he was being sexist and clarify his position. One of Jukwaa's clearly stated no go zones is sexism. I just thought we should all be held to the same standards and that is why I raised the contradictions. Miguna is free and is welcomed to benefit from issues raised by Jukwaa folks on his posts, even the miscreants, but he has to acknowledge that. |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jul 31, 2012 15:45:37 GMT 3
Job:
Why don't you and other people peep at the other side of the coin:
That being such a "loyal friend" (some of us prefer the word comrade) of Miguna, why is it that Onyango Oloo allows the incredible mound of vindictive, hateful, stench imbued FILTH dumped on the author of Peeling Back the Mask day in day out?
Why don't you say that it is because of my undying loyalty to the members of Jukwaa?
Why don't you say that it is important for all these rabid Miguna haters to have a ready platform known as Jukwaa to abuse Miguna every hour?
Onyango Oloo
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jul 31, 2012 15:47:48 GMT 3
From Miguna in Canada:
Two questions for Adongo and Job:
1. Could you please post, side-by-side, the so-called sexist statements I made about Sarah Elderkin, which you claim falsely that I have removed? (Be reminded that the original story Oloo posted has been published in the Star unedited and unchanged.)
2. Adongo, you know very well that Sarah has been lying about everything, but more profoundly about the Presidential speech in 2007, the Minnesota and Denver speeches. You have been boasting on Jukwaa on how you worked on those speeches. I still have my old email correspondence with you and Sarah. I have retained all versions and copies of the draft speeches and the final ones because I PRINCIPALLY prepared them. Can you come clean on this issue?
3. Other than that, you both should know that my rebuttal was intended for publication in the Kenyan newspapers. In fact, I only forwarded to Oloo what I had already submitted to the newspapers. After I had done that, I came across a new piece Sarah published in the Star and the exclusive interview Raila Odinga had with the Sunday Nation. My original rebuttal was prepared on Saturday. I subsequently did the editorial work and abridged it, primarily to respond to Raila and Sarah. You can both continue to delude yourselves that I was responding to your comments in Jukwaa. I rarely read them nowadays, unless someone sends specific ones to me. So, rest easy. You are the least of my concerns. To Adongo specifically: you know I have all our email exchanges, which contradict everything you have been pontificating on in Jukwaa. To me, you have become a despicable character; one who cares more about the fact that Raila is a neighbour in Sakwa, Bondo, than the numerous issues I have raised with you before and are accurately contained in my book.
I will not respond to either of you again.
Good Bye.
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Post by tnk on Jul 31, 2012 16:13:10 GMT 3
You can both continue to delude yourselves that I was responding to your comments in Jukwaa. I rarely read them nowadays, before we look into the rest of the post bw. oloo, if miguna has no interest in jukwaa, is there any point in posting his messages? or was he specifically saying that he does not read what Job and Adongo post? |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jul 31, 2012 16:22:32 GMT 3
tnk:
Since Miguna posted just now through me, your question is moot.
I do not want to get into personalities-especially as all three are very close friends of mine.
Onyango Oloo
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jul 31, 2012 16:29:12 GMT 3
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Post by genius on Jul 31, 2012 16:30:15 GMT 3
Hehe, now Adongo needs to watch out because very soon all his email correspondences with Miguna will find their way into Dennis Itumbi's blog.
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Post by tnk on Jul 31, 2012 16:40:32 GMT 3
tnk:Since Miguna posted just now through me, your question is moot. I do not want to get into personalities- especially as all three are very close friends of mine.Onyango Oloo very well and i do understand i do have to also point out like others have done, that, there are a lot of ambiguities and areas that need clarification arising from the book, subsequent ping pong between miguna and "reviewers" such as sarah, makau etc out there and jukwaa members in general for instance for miguna and sarah to both claim to have email trails that show that the other party did not do one thing or another or in fact did something else, these are things we need to interrogate in detail. although you have done your best to stay neutral, you are a bit too close to the players, subsequently getting caught in cross-fire, only time will tell whether this is good or not, so far you've taken a lot of body blows anyway, miguna has already exposed a lot, we need find a way to establish how much of it is as he says and we surely need see at least some excerpts from the email exchanges. he can print, cut and paste and scan omitting confidential stuff but leave the main pointers in there. its absurd for two grown ups to claim the other is lying (being economical with truth) and then they each expect us to believe one and not the other without providing us with some tangible kind of evidence. the problem here is that there is too much he say/she says, can these guys just provide materials that make it clear to everyone? those spaghetti cowboy shows of relying on one's word are nice and all that, but this is the kibaki era ..... even written commitments should not be and are not honored unless threatened by the entire universe .... |
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tom
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Post by tom on Jul 31, 2012 17:21:36 GMT 3
Miguna Rateng'
Wacha hasira. Ni hasara they say. I think you should remodel your tone and dispense your messages in a non emotive manner, if at all you think that is the right path for you to proceed with.
I don't hold much in term of certificates, neither am I a lofty public chap, but I believe you could use an advice from me too. You don't know me, but I know you from your works and from a few clips of you I have watched on TV. Jukwaa has also given me quite abit of knowledge on you.
I think all wana Jukwaa are asking of you isn't much. They only want you to substantiate the allegations you raise in your book.
You have written a book which has come under heavy criticism from many people including myself. Mutahi Ngunyi was the first person on Jeff's bench to call it a tabloid (!) much to the visible displeasure of Jeff who had grown fond of you lately before your holiday sojourn to Canada. He could not believe that Ngunyi extinguished the volcano with just a single word. In fact his other wordings described your work as intellectual immorality, which he thought the PM should not respond to even with a dot of a word except with ice cold mute contempt card.
On this board laktar Job has been doing a great job analyzing your works just as Wuo' Bita, who even though is enjoying the better of African bundus still finds time to drop afew sensible wordings every time he gets his hands on IT devices.
To say that you will not respond to Jukwaa's finest literatis is to perpetuate your recent public hubris (especially during the launch of your book and on Kionange's bench) which in my view has been one of the things that have initiated the undoing of your works.
I do not want to thump my keyboard endlessly, but as a patriotic countryman, I think time has come for you end what Ab-Tichaza wa Kisuani would call makelele za kalamu and present to the public, substantive proof of what you say. I believe in what you say that we must hold our leaders accountable, but how can we do that if we don't have proof? You know we expect more from you than just a book. Don't just point fingers and leave it at that.
While at that I advice that you get the movie called Law Abiding Citizen and watch it keenly. The good lawyer (Jamie Foxx) in that movie says that what you know isn't the matter in law but what you can prove.
So far the absence of proof in your claims has relegated your book to a mere propaganda tool aimed at bringing down the PM. We are having a field day presenting your work as just that. The PM's opponents have not made it better for your book quoting it. It only takes one person to say they sponsored you and we all follow in that direction with one huge chorus.
I will be honest with you thura . I didn't buy your book. I read the free copy. My view of it isn't very far from What your critics say about it. I actually said to myself that it was a waste of resources investing 3k in it.
Ja Nyando, if it is corruption you want to expose, stop, curb, exorcise and what have you, then come back and help the likes of John Githongo and Mwalimu Mati. They will be honoured to have your helping hand, sharp mind and your iron-clad evidence on board.
Do not peddled that crucial evidence in the blackmail market. Let justice be done.
The power to stop this back and forth discourse is in your hands. You alone hold the key to it end. You can either chose to end it or perpetuate it. If you chose the latter, you will relegate your intellect to that of the proverbial mad man in the market place who people permit to rumble and roam every economic corner of the perimeters until he succumbs to the soothing call of sleep.
Were you serious about that ICC gloating?
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Post by phil on Jul 31, 2012 17:34:50 GMT 3
Spare us the shameless hypocrisy Janyando. Trying to blackmail Adongo into silence, aren't you? Why not address his concerns that we see as quite reasonable and civil?
Ati Raila should reveal who paid for his book 'An Enigma in Kenyan Politics' before you come clean on who paid for this?
I guess you leave us with no choice but to reveal to Jukwaa and the world the dark secrets behind this peeling tabloid, and the night meetings you had with sworn enemies of the Prime Minister.
Watch this space folks!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Jul 31, 2012 17:38:48 GMT 3
Lincoln, I find it very interesting that Raila would suspend Miguna without any pay and without any reason and only wait to hear from Quarcoo that Miguna needed money for him to take appropriate action. That to me sounds very odd, especially for a man who had experienced similar situations before. As regards political volunteers, we may live in different planets, but I know for sure that there is a reason why they are called political volunteers. Are you familiar with The Employment Act 2008? I guess not. Miguna refused to sign his employment contract, and was effectively on a monthly contract. Read things. You surely have missed a lot of information between Miguna's suspension and now, the act you quote here not withstanding. Take time to update yourself then first then we can have a debate. |
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Post by b6k on Jul 31, 2012 19:02:33 GMT 3
OO, indeed your anonymous correspondent noted the same ironic statement quoted in the DN that disturbed me in the Omwenga Bring me down & you bring down reform thread. How can the PM of KE sit there & gloat at Miguna's tribulations while knowing fully well that he is the author of Miguna's dire straits by illegally witholding his salary, benefits, & terminal benefits from him. It just beggers belief that people can still consider RAO an agent of change when such disregard for one man (& his family's) suffering can be made into political capital. I will paste one comment from that DN article that really hit home: Xallo • 18 hours ago • parent −
You just don't get it. Nobody is doubting anyone's "contribution to the reforms". Kenya needs to be managed diligently, not reformed constantly.Some of us are sick and tired of hearing the same old mantra of reforms reforms when all we want is proper management of our state resources by ANY individual who is given the privilege to serve in public office. Is that really too much to ask for? NONSENSE!! Miguna was sacked, Raila does not own the government, Kenya Tax payers pay Miguna's salary and he should go back to court and state exactly why he is owed a salary.. wasn't he employed on Month to Month contract bases? awache uporojo! damn Miguna's groupies are at it again! peddling propaganda !! enuff said.. , the fact remains Miguna was sacked illegally. No series of warning letters; no payment of termination dues & benefits; his junior staff equally thrown out onto the pavement just because they worked for him. All extremely illegal & to twist the knife further in done via the media as Moi of old used to sack ministers on the one o'çlock news. I'm sure Miguna will be vindicated in court eventually. Now as to calling me a Miguna "groupie" nothing could be further from the truth. I have always been a critic of Miguna's works right here on Jukwaa. In fact, the archives will reflect that he once went out of his way (albeit through OO) to castigate me & call me "the mischief maker" for calling him out when he changed his sign off to wrongly indicate that he was an advocate in the Kenya High Court (or admitted at the bar). This was a blatant lie at the time as I posted a link from LSK which showed he was inactive. His paperwork was still being reviewed at the time. He did however rectify the error within 72 hours, if memory serves, but those were the good old days when he was still in government & a quick phone call to some minions at LSk would've done the trick to update his status; a post I posted on Jukwaa. Just because one supports Miguna's right to tell his story does not make one a groupie. If it takes some half truths (or half lies) from Miguna to get the truth out about one RAO, so mote it be  . RAO can always take Miguna to court after all for all the grey areas... |
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Post by b6k on Jul 31, 2012 19:15:54 GMT 3
From Miguna in Canada: Two questions for Adongo and Job:1. Could you please post, side-by-side, the so-called sexist statements I made about Sarah Elderkin, which you claim falsely that I have removed? (Be reminded that the original story Oloo posted has been published in the Star unedited and unchanged.) 2. Adongo, you know very well that Sarah has been lying about everything, but more profoundly about the Presidential speech in 2007, the Minnesota and Denver speeches. You have been boasting on Jukwaa on how you worked on those speeches. I still have my old email correspondence with you and Sarah. I have retained all versions and copies of the draft speeches and the final ones because I PRINCIPALLY prepared them. Can you come clean on this issue? 3. Other than that, you both should know that my rebuttal was intended for publication in the Kenyan newspapers. In fact, I only forwarded to Oloo what I had already submitted to the newspapers. After I had done that, I came across a new piece Sarah published in the Star and the exclusive interview Raila Odinga had with the Sunday Nation. My original rebuttal was prepared on Saturday. I subsequently did the editorial work and abridged it, primarily to respond to Raila and Sarah. You can both continue to delude yourselves that I was responding to your comments in Jukwaa. I rarely read them nowadays, unless someone sends specific ones to me. So, rest easy. You are the least of my concerns. To Adongo specifically: you know I have all our email exchanges, which contradict everything you have been pontificating on in Jukwaa. To me, you have become a despicable character; one who cares more about the fact that Raila is a neighbour in Sakwa, Bondo, than the numerous issues I have raised with you before and are accurately contained in my book. I will not respond to either of you again. Good Bye. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I have always suspected that even the non-partisan amongst us would like to have a president from the 'hood, so to speak. Charity begins at home.... |
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Post by reporter911 on Jul 31, 2012 22:35:11 GMT 3
NONSENSE!! Miguna was sacked, Raila does not own the government, Kenya Tax payers pay Miguna's salary and he should go back to court and state exactly why he is owed a salary.. wasn't he employed on Month to Month contract bases? awache uporojo! damn Miguna's groupies are at it again! peddling propaganda !! enuff said.. , the fact remains Miguna was sacked illegally. No series of warning letters; no payment of termination dues & benefits; his junior staff equally thrown out onto the pavement just because they worked for him. All extremely illegal & to twist the knife further in done via the media as Moi of old used to sack ministers on the one o'çlock news. I'm sure Miguna will be vindicated in court eventually. Now as to calling me a Miguna "groupie" nothing could be further from the truth. I have always been a critic of Miguna's works right here on Jukwaa. In fact, the archives will reflect that he once went out of his way (albeit through OO) to castigate me & call me "the mischief maker" for calling him out when he changed his sign off to wrongly indicate that he was an advocate in the Kenya High Court (or admitted at the bar). This was a blatant lie at the time as I posted a link from LSK which showed he was inactive. His paperwork was still being reviewed at the time. He did however rectify the error within 72 hours, if memory serves, but those were the good old days when he was still in government & a quick phone call to some minions at LSk would've done the trick to update his status; a post I posted on Jukwaa. Just because one supports Miguna's right to tell his story does not make one a groupie. If it takes some half truths (or half lies) from Miguna to get the truth out about one RAO, so mote it be . RAO can always take Miguna to court after all for all the grey areas... Month to month contracts are exactly that, an employer or a land lord has a right to sack you or throw you out without notice.. Miguna never signed a contract, he was employed month the month .. that mean the Kenya tax payers don't have to pay him a cent more!!  so let him take the Kenya government to court! since when does the Kenya government belong to Raila? waste of time spinning propaganda & lies on here.. won't work!!! |
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Post by reporter911 on Jul 31, 2012 22:39:17 GMT 3
Spare us the shameless hypocrisy Janyando. Trying to blackmail Adongo into silence, aren't you? Why not address his concerns that we see as quite reasonable and civil? Ati Raila should reveal who paid for his book 'An Enigma in Kenyan Politics' before you come clean on who paid for this? I guess you leave us with no choice but to reveal to Jukwaa and the world the dark secrets behind this peeling tabloid, and the night meetings you had with sworn enemies of the Prime Minister. Watch this space folks! Interesting!! but my advise it that let the information creep out by itself.. it always does.. ;D on the other hand why wait?  |
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Post by job on Jul 31, 2012 23:39:04 GMT 3
Job:
Why don't you and other people peep at the other side of the coin:
That being such a "loyal friend" (some of us prefer the word comrade) of Miguna, why is it that Onyango Oloo allows the incredible mound of vindictive, hateful, stench imbued FILTH dumped on the author of Peeling Back the Mask day in day out?
Why don't you say that it is because of my undying loyalty to the members of Jukwaa?
Why don't you say that it is important for all these rabid Miguna haters to have a ready platform known as Jukwaa to abuse Miguna every hour?Onyango Oloo
Oloo,Even though I didn't announce it, I actually peeped at that other side. In all fairness you've allowed ( to some degree) platform from which the "incredible mound of vindictive, hateful, stench imbued FILTH" has been launched towards the author. Wasn't that precisely the reason I called for JUKWAA members to cut the Admin some slack regarding the now controversial edits/revisions? Am also not disputing the fact that you've reasonably allowed ventilation from both sides - because of your undying loyalty to both sides.
I strongly urge you to continue allowing both sides to vigorously interrogate and critique this memoir - right here at JUKWAA.Job |
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 31, 2012 23:42:36 GMT 3
From Miguna in Canada: Two questions for Adongo and Job:1. Could you please post, side-by-side, the so-called sexist statements I made about Sarah Elderkin, which you claim falsely that I have removed? (Be reminded that the original story Oloo posted has been published in the Star unedited and unchanged.) 2. Adongo, you know very well that Sarah has been lying about everything, but more profoundly about the Presidential speech in 2007, the Minnesota and Denver speeches. You have been boasting on Jukwaa on how you worked on those speeches. I still have my old email correspondence with you and Sarah. I have retained all versions and copies of the draft speeches and the final ones because I PRINCIPALLY prepared them. Can you come clean on this issue? 3. Other than that, you both should know that my rebuttal was intended for publication in the Kenyan newspapers. In fact, I only forwarded to Oloo what I had already submitted to the newspapers. After I had done that, I came across a new piece Sarah published in the Star and the exclusive interview Raila Odinga had with the Sunday Nation. My original rebuttal was prepared on Saturday. I subsequently did the editorial work and abridged it, primarily to respond to Raila and Sarah. You can both continue to delude yourselves that I was responding to your comments in Jukwaa. I rarely read them nowadays, unless someone sends specific ones to me. So, rest easy. You are the least of my concerns. To Adongo specifically: you know I have all our email exchanges, which contradict everything you have been pontificating on in Jukwaa. To me, you have become a despicable character; one who cares more about the fact that Raila is a neighbour in Sakwa, Bondo, than the numerous issues I have raised with you before and are accurately contained in my book. I will not respond to either of you again. Good Bye. hehehehehehe. Miguna,First of, I must say it is very nice of you to take your valuable time to respond to our humble posts which you claim you never read. I can understand how hard it is to respond to stuff you have never read. How do you manage that? Secondly, I personally find it very childish to be competing about who wrote which part of which Raila speech. You claim I have been boasting of having written parts of those speeches which seem to be very important to you. My question to you is, how did you find that out since you never read what mere mortals like me post? Do you even understand how you contradict yourself so thoroughly? May be not and quite frankly that is your problem. Third, if Raila is so useless, why are you so desperate to be seen as the guy who wrote at least parts of his speeches? Fourth, about my e-mails exchanges with you, I would welcome you to post them or send them to friendly "hackers". I have absolutely nothing to hide. I have offered, for free, my contributions to the ODM effort for a better Kenya. They never paid me a dime unlike you who was working for pay with the PM. I have at times provided brutal and honest criticism to the PM and ODM not just through you but even here in Jukwaa. I did so as part of my little effort to make our country better. I would do the same again and again. I would love to read some of those pieces right here in Jukwaa or anywhere else you choose to send them. No problem. And the notion that my criticism of you (which you allegedly never read) is because Raila is from Sakwa Bondo is quite hilarious. So why do you think I supported Dr. Mutunga for the CJ job? He must be from Ogago village. Right? Get real my friend. As for your sexist nonsense towards Sarah Elderkin, here is what I posted before you resonded to us by editing your post at least as per Oloo's own later post on your post(s). Feel free to respond to them when you have a second from your busy schedule of book promotion. Here we go: "Obviously we are having problems with freedom of expression again. It looks to me from Miguna’s response to his crtics that freedm of expression only belongs to those who praise Miguna or those who see nothing whatsoever to be questioned about Miguna’s book and his actions and activities. Those are the only normal people allowed to have a brain as far as Miguna is concerned.
Woe unto those like Sarah Elderkin who have actually used their little uncertified brains to criticize Miguna’s book and other aspects of his ctions. They are “groupies”, “ miscreants”, “pseudo intellectuals”, “Kanu orphans” etc. Obviously according to Miguna these sad souls have no right to express their views. Talk about intolerance.
We can and sometimes have festivals abusive stuff, but I wonder if all these really adds value to Miguna’s own arguments other than fitting into a pattern that has proved not so helpful to Miguna.
I have not read Miguna’s book, in fact the only copy I have seen is the one Oloo brought in a meeting we had in Nairobi. Obviously I am going to read it. I have read some excerpts of Sarah Elderkin’s critique. I was hoping Miguna would respond to “issues” raised by Ms Elderkin without calling her a groupie which is outright sexism from Miguna. I wonder what Miguna would say if a white colleague called him a boy. It would be racist even though the same word boy used in a different context would be harmless. A man using the word groupie in reference to a female colleague and a superb writer in her own right is just good old sexism that men use to intimidate women. It is completely uncalled for". |
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Post by b6k on Jul 31, 2012 23:55:08 GMT 3
R911, the fact remains Miguna was sacked illegally. No series of warning letters; no payment of termination dues & benefits; his junior staff equally thrown out onto the pavement just because they worked for him. All extremely illegal & to twist the knife further in done via the media as Moi of old used to sack ministers on the one o'çlock news. I'm sure Miguna will be vindicated in court eventually. Now as to calling me a Miguna "groupie" nothing could be further from the truth. I have always been a critic of Miguna's works right here on Jukwaa. In fact, the archives will reflect that he once went out of his way (albeit through OO) to castigate me & call me "the mischief maker" for calling him out when he changed his sign off to wrongly indicate that he was an advocate in the Kenya High Court (or admitted at the bar). This was a blatant lie at the time as I posted a link from LSK which showed he was inactive. His paperwork was still being reviewed at the time. He did however rectify the error within 72 hours, if memory serves, but those were the good old days when he was still in government & a quick phone call to some minions at LSk would've done the trick to update his status; a post I posted on Jukwaa. Just because one supports Miguna's right to tell his story does not make one a groupie. If it takes some half truths (or half lies) from Miguna to get the truth out about one RAO, so mote it be . RAO can always take Miguna to court after all for all the grey areas... Month to month contracts are exactly that, an employer or a land lord has a right to sack you or throw you out without notice.. Miguna never signed a contract, he was employed month the month .. that mean the Kenya tax payers don't have to pay him a cent more!! so let him take the Kenya government to court! since when does the Kenya government belong to Raila? waste of time spinning propaganda & lies on here.. won't work!!! , sometimes it helps to do a little research on something before you decide to take a hardline position on it. Even staff employed on a temporary basis (what you refer to as "month to month" contracts) enjoy rights similar to a permanent worker after a couple of months on a particular job. The only people you can sack on a dime as it were, at the end of a working day are casual labourers who are employed on a daily basis (24 hour cycle). Going by your definition, Miguna was at worst, a temporary worker, but by dint of being on the job for almost 4 years he would definitely have enjoyed the rights of a permanent worker. As to the mode of of his termination, what the labour court will have to determine was whether it was lawful or unlawful termination. I posit to you that it was UNLAWFUL. He was sacked for some unspecified misconduct. Labour laws are clear on how an employer has to prove the misconduct to the employee BEFORE he sacks him. Assuming as you have said he was a temporary worker, it would therefore follow that he ought to have been given, at the very least, a notice period that was similar to his payment cycle, ie one month. To read more on labour laws I suggest you check out the following link: www.mywage.org/kenya/home/labour-laws/termination-of-a-contractTo highlight sections of the termination page that are relevant to Miguna (I suggest you visit the link to get a full picture of the law): "Termination of employment can be initiated by either of the parties to a contract of employment (Employment Act, section 35 (1)). Lawful termination of employment under common law includes: Termination of employment by an employer: An employer may also terminate the employment of an employee but there is a need to comply with the provisions of the law and contract relating to termination. On what grounds can a contract of employment be terminated by an employer? By the employer on the basis of misconduct of employee (Employment Act, section 44 (3)) What must an employer do if he or she wants to terminate a contract of employment? A contract of employment may be terminated at any time by an employer who must give the employee a period of notice of termination (e.g. at close of day in case of contract for daily wages, one month or more in case of monthly pay contracts). What form of notice should an employer give a worker when terminating employment? A termination notice shall be in writing. In case the employee does not understand the notice, the employer is responsible to ensure that the notice is explained orally to the worker in a language he/she understands (section 35 (2) (3)). If the employee is employed on a daily wage contract, the notice is given at the close of any day without notice. Can an employer terminate an employee immediately without allowing them to work during the notice period? Does the law allow this? In event the employer wants to terminate an employee without allowing her/him to serve the notice period the employer will be required to pay the employee the amount that an employee would have received if she/he had worked during the notice period. This is what is usually referred to as payment in lieu of notice (section 36) also (section 38). Section 36 provides for payment of equivalent salary in lieu of notice instead of serving the notice. The length of notice will depend on the interval at which salary is paid. What happens if an employee is terminated but they have outstanding leave they have not taken? In the case of accrued leave upon termination the employer shall pay an employee on a pro rata basis an amount in cash for the accrued annual leave to which that employee is entitled (section 40 (1) (e)) - provided that it is taken not later than six months after the end of leave cycle or twelve months after the end of leave cycle if (if the employee consented or extension is justified by operational requirements) (section 28(4)). Can an employer terminate an employee because s/he does not like the worker? No. Under the law there are four grounds that may justify termination of the employment by the employer and these are: Misconduct of an employee.Physical incapacity. Poor performance. Employer’s operational requirements/retrenchment. An employer may also terminate an employee due to participation in an illegal strike. Therefore for an employer to terminate an employee he/she should have a genuine reason as specified in section 45 (2) and section 46. An employee cannot be fired because an employer does not like them - unless the grounds for this dislike are based on the above-mentioned factors.What amounts to fair termination of employment? In order for termination to be fair in the eyes of the law it has to be both substantively and procedurally fair. The employer needs to have a valid and fair reason for termination. Apart from this valid reason of termination the employer must follow fair procedures for termination as provided under the Employment Act, section 45 (2) and section 46.). In any form of termination the employer is required to prove the reasons for the termination, otherwise it will be termed as unfair (section 45 (2)). The procedures for termination are different depending on the reason for termination but they all have a common item - the right of an employee to be heard before a termination decision is taken against an employee (section 41 (2)).In case a worker is terminated unfairly what would be the consequences for the employer?
If the labour officer makes the decision that the summary dismissal or the termination of contract of an employee is unjustified, he/she may recommend to the employer to pay the employee any or all of the following: The wages which the employee would have earned had the employee been given the period of notice to which he/she was entitled under this Act or his/her contract of service. Where dismissal terminates the contract before the completion of any service upon which the employee’s wages became due, the proportion of the wage due for the period of time for which the employee has worked; and any other loss consequent upon the dismissal and arising between the date of dismissal and the date of expiry of the period of notice referred to in paragraph (a) which the employee would have been entitled to by virtue of the contract. The equivalent of a number of months’ wages or salary not exceeding twelve months based on the gross monthly wage or salary of the employee at the time of dismissal. Alternatively, the employer may have to:
Reinstate the employee and treat the employee in all respects as if the employees employment had not been terminated; or
Re-engage the employee in work comparable to that in which the employee was employed prior to their dismissal, or other reasonably suitable work, at the same wage." So R911, when the folks over at the OPM realized they had BROKEN THE LAW by summarily dismissing Miguna so callously they attempted to backtrack & reinstate him. Unfortunately this also backfired because Miguna did not bite the lure that "reassigned" him to other duties. It is therefore not propaganda when I say Miguna will win his case against the OPM or GK or whatever you wish to call it. The fact remains the OPM & the PM himself (his avoiding Miguna's calls & SMS's show he approved of the termination) is guilty of breaking the laws of the land. The very same laws he swore on a bible to uphold & protect. The very same laws he claims he is the BEST candidate to ensure they are respected. Can we therefore really trust this man with the highest office in the land when he so casually broke the law? While you were busy kissing Miguna's feet at the time of his sacking & wondering why the OPM let your then hero go, I called out the PM on his illegal action. I still stand by that to this day. This is why Miguna will win his day in court against the OPM. Now kindly read up on the law & stop the emotional outbursts. The law is there to protect all of us....even those we do not approve of  |
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Post by reporter911 on Aug 1, 2012 0:01:35 GMT 3
From Miguna in Canada: Two questions for Adongo and Job:1. Could you please post, side-by-side, the so-called sexist statements I made about Sarah Elderkin, which you claim falsely that I have removed? (Be reminded that the original story Oloo posted has been published in the Star unedited and unchanged.) 2. Adongo, you know very well that Sarah has been lying about everything, but more profoundly about the Presidential speech in 2007, the Minnesota and Denver speeches. You have been boasting on Jukwaa on how you worked on those speeches. I still have my old email correspondence with you and Sarah. I have retained all versions and copies of the draft speeches and the final ones because I PRINCIPALLY prepared them. Can you come clean on this issue? 3. Other than that, you both should know that my rebuttal was intended for publication in the Kenyan newspapers. In fact, I only forwarded to Oloo what I had already submitted to the newspapers. After I had done that, I came across a new piece Sarah published in the Star and the exclusive interview Raila Odinga had with the Sunday Nation. My original rebuttal was prepared on Saturday. I subsequently did the editorial work and abridged it, primarily to respond to Raila and Sarah. You can both continue to delude yourselves that I was responding to your comments in Jukwaa. I rarely read them nowadays, unless someone sends specific ones to me. So, rest easy. You are the least of my concerns. To Adongo specifically: you know I have all our email exchanges, which contradict everything you have been pontificating on in Jukwaa. To me, you have become a despicable character; one who cares more about the fact that Raila is a neighbour in Sakwa, Bondo, than the numerous issues I have raised with you before and are accurately contained in my book. I will not respond to either of you again. Good Bye. Opps! Adongo I thought you were told to lick feet like other Politicians who Miguna alleges were involved in the "PEV"or else? ;D ;D your emails will be unleashed in the Kenya newspapers, including to is it Denis Itumbi and here on Jukwaa.. NOTE Miguna refuses to release crucial information in regards to the "PEV" he himself alleged was withholding and yet with just a dial of his finger tips he is ready to unload all private emails shared between Adongo & him including speeches written for the PM? am I the one missing something here.. |
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Post by tnk on Aug 1, 2012 0:15:47 GMT 3
Miguna,First of, I must say it is very nice of you to take your valuable time to respond to our humble posts which you claim you never read. I can understand how hard it is to respond to stuff you have never read. How do you manage that? ......Third, if Raila is so useless, why are you so desperate to be seen as the guy who wrote at least parts of his speeches? ....And the notion that my criticism of you (which you allegedly never read) is because Raila is from Sakwa Bondo is quite hilarious. ;D ;D ;D good one adongo ..... whatever you are eating and drinking out there must be very refreshing stuff |
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Post by reporter911 on Aug 1, 2012 0:23:44 GMT 3
Month to month contracts are exactly that, an employer or a land lord has a right to sack you or throw you out without notice.. Miguna never signed a contract, he was employed month the month .. that mean the Kenya tax payers don't have to pay him a cent more!! so let him take the Kenya government to court! since when does the Kenya government belong to Raila? waste of time spinning propaganda & lies on here.. won't work!!! , sometimes it helps to do a little research on something before you decide to take a hardline position on it. Even staff employed on a temporary basis (what you refer to as "month to month" contracts) enjoy rights similar to a permanent worker after a couple of months on a particular job. The only people you can sack on a dime as it were, at the end of a working day are casual labourers who are employed on a daily basis (24 hour cycle). Going by your definition, Miguna was at worst, a temporary worker, but by dint of being on the job for almost 4 years he would definitely have enjoyed the rights of a permanent worker. As to the mode of of his termination, what the labour court will have to determine was whether it was lawful or unlawful termination. I posit to you that it was UNLAWFUL. He was sacked for some unspecified misconduct. Labour laws are clear on how an employer has to prove the misconduct to the employee BEFORE he sacks him. Assuming as you have said he was a temporary worker, it would therefore follow that he ought to have been given, at the very least, a notice period that was similar to his payment cycle, ie one month. To read more on labour laws I suggest you check out the following link: www.mywage.org/kenya/home/labour-laws/termination-of-a-contractTo highlight sections of the termination page that are relevant to Miguna (I suggest you visit the link to get a full picture of the law): "Termination of employment can be initiated by either of the parties to a contract of employment (Employment Act, section 35 (1)). Lawful termination of employment under common law includes: Termination of employment by an employer: An employer may also terminate the employment of an employee but there is a need to comply with the provisions of the law and contract relating to termination. On what grounds can a contract of employment be terminated by an employer? By the employer on the basis of misconduct of employee (Employment Act, section 44 (3)) What must an employer do if he or she wants to terminate a contract of employment? A contract of employment may be terminated at any time by an employer who must give the employee a period of notice of termination (e.g. at close of day in case of contract for daily wages, one month or more in case of monthly pay contracts). What form of notice should an employer give a worker when terminating employment? A termination notice shall be in writing. In case the employee does not understand the notice, the employer is responsible to ensure that the notice is explained orally to the worker in a language he/she understands (section 35 (2) (3)). If the employee is employed on a daily wage contract, the notice is given at the close of any day without notice. Can an employer terminate an employee immediately without allowing them to work during the notice period? Does the law allow this? In event the employer wants to terminate an employee without allowing her/him to serve the notice period the employer will be required to pay the employee the amount that an employee would have received if she/he had worked during the notice period. This is what is usually referred to as payment in lieu of notice (section 36) also (section 38). Section 36 provides for payment of equivalent salary in lieu of notice instead of serving the notice. The length of notice will depend on the interval at which salary is paid. What happens if an employee is terminated but they have outstanding leave they have not taken? In the case of accrued leave upon termination the employer shall pay an employee on a pro rata basis an amount in cash for the accrued annual leave to which that employee is entitled (section 40 (1) (e)) - provided that it is taken not later than six months after the end of leave cycle or twelve months after the end of leave cycle if (if the employee consented or extension is justified by operational requirements) (section 28(4)). Can an employer terminate an employee because s/he does not like the worker? No. Under the law there are four grounds that may justify termination of the employment by the employer and these are: Misconduct of an employee.Physical incapacity. Poor performance. Employer’s operational requirements/retrenchment. An employer may also terminate an employee due to participation in an illegal strike. Therefore for an employer to terminate an employee he/she should have a genuine reason as specified in section 45 (2) and section 46. An employee cannot be fired because an employer does not like them - unless the grounds for this dislike are based on the above-mentioned factors.What amounts to fair termination of employment? In order for termination to be fair in the eyes of the law it has to be both substantively and procedurally fair. The employer needs to have a valid and fair reason for termination. Apart from this valid reason of termination the employer must follow fair procedures for termination as provided under the Employment Act, section 45 (2) and section 46.). In any form of termination the employer is required to prove the reasons for the termination, otherwise it will be termed as unfair (section 45 (2)). The procedures for termination are different depending on the reason for termination but they all have a common item - the right of an employee to be heard before a termination decision is taken against an employee (section 41 (2)).In case a worker is terminated unfairly what would be the consequences for the employer?
If the labour officer makes the decision that the summary dismissal or the termination of contract of an employee is unjustified, he/she may recommend to the employer to pay the employee any or all of the following: The wages which the employee would have earned had the employee been given the period of notice to which he/she was entitled under this Act or his/her contract of service. Where dismissal terminates the contract before the completion of any service upon which the employee’s wages became due, the proportion of the wage due for the period of time for which the employee has worked; and any other loss consequent upon the dismissal and arising between the date of dismissal and the date of expiry of the period of notice referred to in paragraph (a) which the employee would have been entitled to by virtue of the contract. The equivalent of a number of months’ wages or salary not exceeding twelve months based on the gross monthly wage or salary of the employee at the time of dismissal. Alternatively, the employer may have to:
Reinstate the employee and treat the employee in all respects as if the employees employment had not been terminated; or
Re-engage the employee in work comparable to that in which the employee was employed prior to their dismissal, or other reasonably suitable work, at the same wage." So R911, when the folks over at the OPM realized they had BROKEN THE LAW by summarily dismissing Miguna so callously they attempted to backtrack & reinstate him. Unfortunately this also backfired because Miguna did not bite the lure that "reassigned" him to other duties. It is therefore not propaganda when I say Miguna will win his case against the OPM or GK or whatever you wish to call it. The fact remains the OPM & the PM himself (his avoiding Miguna's calls & SMS's show he approved of the termination) is guilty of breaking the laws of the land. The very same laws he swore on a bible to uphold & protect. The very same laws he claims he is the BEST candidate to ensure they are respected. Can we therefore really trust this man with the highest office in the land when he so casually broke the law? While you were busy kissing Miguna's feet at the time of his sacking & wondering why the OPM let your then hero go, I called out the PM on his illegal action. I still stand by that to this day. This is why Miguna will win his day in court against the OPM. Now kindly read up on the law & stop the emotional outbursts. The law is there to protect all of us....even those we do not approve of
2. I WILL REPEAT AGAIN! THE ABOVE RELATES TO A CONTRACT BETWEEN AN EMPLOYER AND EMPLOYEE !! MIGUNA SIGNED NO CONTRACT.. SO YOUR POST IS IRRELEVANT!! KAPICHE!!Miguna himself admitted that he never signed a contract with the Kenya government ... get it straight Raila does not own the Kenya Government .. he is employed and his salary is paid like all government civil servants by the Kenya tax payers.. Miguna is welcome to sue the government!!
Meanwhile post here the Kenya Law that states that GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES CAN WORK WITHOUT SIGNING CONTRACTS! MIGUNA REFUSED TO SIGN HSI CONTRACT HE HIMSELFS ADMITS TO THAT EFFECT! THE GOVERNMENT WAS KIND ENOUGH TO KEEP HIM IN OFFICE WITHOUT A CONTRACT.. GOODWILL IF I MAY ADD.. NO CONTRACT MEANS NO CONTRACT! IVYO TUU!! Miguna was not contracted by ODM neither the Kenya government, I guess you could call him a freelancer or a Political volunteer with benefits not equal to other government employees with CONTRACTS!! keep spinning it left, right and centre.. it ain't happening.. maybe the government will ask the Kenya tax payers to allow the government to front Miguna some retirement money. but I guess after Miguna selling a book full of allegation, Innuendo's, propaganda While at the same time withholding crucial "PEV" INFORMATION WHILE spewing out government business... it ain't going to happen..
!Go back to the truth instead of piling here propaganda and lies!! |
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. RAO can always take Miguna to court after all for all the grey areas...
so let him take the Kenya government to court! since when does the Kenya government belong to Raila? waste of time spinning propaganda & lies on here.. won't work!!!
