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Post by Omwenga on Sept 2, 2012 6:35:33 GMT 3
I will faithfully, that is letter for letter, transcribe about 4 minutes of this conversation. There is popular talk of Miguna as a mad man, so due diligence has forced me to listen to his 'talks' to define his coherence, flow of thought, that I compare to what I think a mad man would sound like. Below is the mad Jaluos MM talking. I am revisiting known definitions of madness!  RADIOMAN Question: ... What was the point for you when you said enough is enough: MIGUNA-ANSWER: I think that after the constitutional review process, when Raila abandoned the the 3-tier parliamentary devolution structure, I decided Raila Odinga had gone too far. He was irredeemable. Too far from what and irredeemable as to what? What is a "3-tier parliamentary devolution structure?" and when did Raila abandon it as you claim? Miguna, you can throw around words in the hopes of confusing and befuddling the unwary but, unfortunately for you, what you say in public and is recorded is not confined to the unwary or otherwise those you can so easily confuse and befuddle. You obviously meant a "3-tear devolved government structure," which members within ODM were divided as to whether that was a good idea as opposed to the 2-tear system that was ultimately adopted. Only you and others who think like you or, more precisely, who have an ax to grind with the PM would want others to believe Raila's ultimate support for the current 2-tier devolved government system is being "gone." Gone from what? . This is a shameless, bold lie. How did this exactly take place, when and where? According to you, Raila says "Omera, all I need is an imperial presidency. I want undiluted power of the presidency." Let me tell you as one who studied and obtained his undergraduate degree in political science before proceeding to law school that no politician, let alone Raila, would say those words to someone who is not a close and trusted advisor--and by all accounts you were not, and even the fact that Raila was prevailed upon by others to hire you and did so "out of pity" more than a year after he assumed office as PM--that fact alone speaks to how not close an adivisor you were and if there is any doubt about that, it is removed by the fact that you were sent to physically work as far away from the PM's main office as possible. This is also the reason many of us knew from the very beginning that you had no beans to spill because you had not worked in the government long enough or deep enough to tell us anything about it beyond bar gossip. Be that as it may be, this claim that Raila told you he wanted an imperial presidency is just another made up after the fact revisionist "recollection" to make you look or come across as the perfect, flawless and indispensable "senior advisor" you "were" that also made Raila the enigma he is as you shamelessly claimed in Kisumu the other day. True and still remains to be true what Raila said as he believes in it and is vying for the presidency to fulfill his promise to have the constitution fully implemented in order to achieve this. It is, of course, a lie that you realized Raila was "gone" when he was saying this while purportedly telling you privately the made up lie you're peddling that Raila wanted an imperial presidency. When exactly did you come to this conclusion and, more importantly, what did you do upon reaching that conclusion to separate yourself from the man you otherwise loved, admired and defended to no end? Gone from what and, more importantly, why did you continue working for a man "gone" from whatever that is that you want to make us believe he therefore became not worth being the leader he is? For anyone who knows Raila, including yourself before you were shown the door, knows that Raila is neither greedy for power nor is he greedy for money. Looking at someone directly in their eyes and blurting out a lie with a straight face does not make it true and neither does repeating it no matter how many times and this notwithstanding Goebbel's teaching you appear to wish to exploit that if you repeat a lie often enough it would eventually come true. You don't have the luxury of time as such for you have already turned off many who would have otherwise bought the lies because of your lack of retrain in telling these whoppers and outlandish, vindictive assertions without any factual base. I suppose this is still in response to the question when did you say enough is enough? So, what did you do then? Did you quit rather than work under the supervision and direction of PS Isahakia you now claim was guilty of these things you charge about him? I am sure Salim Lone has read or will now get to read about this so, let's all give you the benefit of doubt on this while we await Mr. Lone's corroboration of this, even though I doubt he will. Really? Why stop there? Why not go on to what happened when you told Salim this? Or did you not tell him because no such a conversation occurred between you and Raila? I know you say some of these outlandish things on live TV or before a rolling video-camera; but, do you ever watch a replay of what you have said and tell yourself, "oh, that's a big one; even I can't believe it!!!  Ati Raila believes he is a god? And that no one can leave him? You see, when you say outlandish things like this and the other one that you are the one who has made Raila who he is, even hardcore Raila haters dismiss you as simply unhinged and I am sorry to say that but it's true. They may not say it publicly, but every sane person with common sense will have to conclude this is simply nonsensical and unbelievable. BTW, I have no time to go through the archives here but, when you loved, admired and defended Raila; did anyone ever call you a sycophant or say Raila was your idol or god you worshiped? If so, what did you make of such accusations? Now, flip the roles. You are now the one calling Raila a god and his supporters all manner of names, including sycophants and groupies. How comical is that, if not tragic? In one of her eloquent pieces in peeling your own mask, jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=7183 journalist Sarah Elderkin provided an accurate account of what actually happened respecting your meeting with Raila, thus, The meeting between the Prime Minister and Miguna at the Nairobi Serena hotel on December 27 last year came as a result of appeals by Quarcco on Miguna’s behalf to the PM in the preceding days. These appeals were, in fact, the culmination of similar appeals from other people.You obviously want to have people believe, nah, this was not the case, the PM himself called and begged you to come meet him and being the very important person you are relative to the PM, you dictated where the meeting had to take place, Serena. Please. We went past what to believe about what you say long before you started saying it. Put another way, Ms. Elderkin's account of what happened about this meeting is simply what is accurate and true, everything else including your own account is not or is only to the extent it's not contradicted by Ms. Elderkin. Hebu fafanua since when and how did you manage to track and keep this record about who said yes or no to Raila all his life? Just for the heck of it, let's do a small recap: Is there anything else left you can say to make you more important? Oh, I see, there is and you will have to find time and squeeze that in in the remaining time of your 15 minutes of fame just because we must not have any doubts? I am sure there is someone out there who can match you with this level of self-elevation to importance but even they are saying to themselves, nah, can't beat that! |
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Post by b6k on Sept 2, 2012 7:28:03 GMT 3
Hehehe. Omwenga I know these protocol "slights" excite y'all in ODM (like the re-arranging of chairs was such a big deal when Miguna Miguna did it) but maybe this is one of those times to interject one of your make-belief pieces in what Mudavadi & Raila said to one another before they made their speeches: "Forestry Minister Noah Wekesa sat between the erstwhile political allies. At one point, Mr Mudavadi moved and sat next to Mr Odinga and chatted for a few minutes." www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Raila+Mudavadi+face+off+at+Shikuku+burial+/-/1064/1492936/-/dqi76bz/-/index.html |
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 2, 2012 7:49:25 GMT 3
Hehehe. Omwenga I know these protocol "slights" excite y'all in ODM (like the re-arranging of chairs was such a big deal when Miguna Miguna did it) but maybe this is one of those times to interject one of your make-belief pieces in what Mudavadi & Raila said to one another before they made their speeches: "Forestry Minister Noah Wekesa sat between the erstwhile political allies. At one point, Mr Mudavadi moved and sat next to Mr Odinga and chatted for a few minutes." www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Raila+Mudavadi+face+off+at+Shikuku+burial+/-/1064/1492936/-/dqi76bz/-/index.htmlb6k, I assume you meant to post this in the Shikuku thread, jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=7303? Please migrate it there and will be happy respond...well, not by much other than to say, yes, these protocol slights do mean something on both sides and, regarding MM, I actually do intend to do a "Conversation With Musalia Mudavadi" at some point--maybe a Christmas gift for all ;D |
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Post by kamalet on Sept 2, 2012 9:07:28 GMT 3
Omwenga
I detest liars and especially those of political sycophants.i can understand those withi little schooling, but when it comes from someone like..educated as you claim...then one must question how low one can get!
Why do I say so?
On two occasions on this thread, you have repeated the allegation that there is credible evidence that the events in Mombasa were stage managed. You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why! You just repeated the same line a Kanu idiot would claim of 'they have been sent'.
If you cannot provide the evidence perhaps you can apologise or allow us to lower the esteem you may have earned in Jukwaa.
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 2, 2012 10:21:53 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, is it really necessary to go past these five minutes to make the case that has amply been made even long before this interview?.[/ Yes, Brother Omwenga, these series of studies is called the mind of a mad Jaruo. Deconstruction and certification. And I am not the type to do half jobs . That would be being half cocky of sorts! ;D And, just a bit of context: clever Paul Ryan has been 'walking around Washington these past years having his hand in the pie'. He is now on a ticket, and, in a shuffle as in changing steps, made a powerful, wonderful, glowing speech at the GOP caucus in Tampa Florida! only problem is the speech is/was laced with 'major inaccuracies', and has led to a national fervor in debunking by top of the range journalists. {The rest of the lazy pack have no idea what the hullabaloo is all about!]. I am enjoying the 'studies' which unite body-language, audio [intonation], and truthfulness, in the context of media morality and the PR business. Now that I know this can be done, in the land of the free, I expect no less from the most brilliant of my students tackling Miguna and his public lies! --Jaruo very complicated as we say in Kisumo Pacho! |
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 2, 2012 10:39:17 GMT 3
2nd instalment. transcript: xx:00-09:00
RADIOMAN: Now one question I have been meaning to ask you, which is, if I could use the term, people whom we colloquially call the 'bearded sisters', people you were involved with right from campus to... some of the radical politics of the day, who were an unashamedly Marxist,... what do you have to say to them, because they obviously came with very high principles, ..... they had a view of a reformed Kenya, even if i did not agree with their principles.. and now most of them are mired in 'muck'. What would you say to them.
MIGUNA: To tell you the truth, I think many of those people never believed in those principles. They, like Raila, pretended to be socialists, reformists; pretended to be social democrats, but those are just words. They used those words to delude the people into thinking they are fighting for them. They were manipulating the people. These are the people ... remember in 2007/2008 Raila Odinga sent Maina Njenga the book 48 rules of power, it means he believes in the 48 rules of power, such a silly book really, --one of which is to destroy the opposition --- yes yes, those are his principles, that is not Marxist Leninist that is not a progressive thinker.
So we believed unfortunately, that these people were progressive, consistently, but now from close, up-close, working with them, I discovered No, that was just a ruse. Many of them have been involved in all kinds of corrupt deals.
RADIOMAN ....would you mention some of those...
MIGUNA: Well, I think they are in my book.. he he he!
RADIO-CO-HOST {at the prompting of the other presenter]: Before we get into all those, I think they are more like comments now.. from twitter: I want to give you, Miguna, more opportunity to explain further, more reasons whey you wrote this book.
MIGUNA: Yes, It is important for people to know that, umm, and I mention this in the book, that, before I came back, during the constitutional review process, one of my best friends, role-model, my mentor, professor Crispin Odhiambo Mbai, was brutally murdered in Kenya, and his killers have never been apprehended, convicted and sentenced. This is a tragedy I think, because he was one of the brilliant thinkers in this country; one of the people who brought up and promoted devolution as a concept in this country during Bomas, and he was also Raila's adviser and close friend, and I had spoken with all kinds of people, Raila Odinga, Anyang' Nyong'o and other ministers, asking them, pleading with them, to help me and others unravel who killed Odhiambo Mbai. and they never did anything up to this moment.
There are many other people who have been assassinated, as a matter of fact right now as we are speaking, Mombasa is burning as a result of the assassination of Sheikh Rogo. This kind of killing, the killing of Oulu .. Kang'ara and the rest, this culture of blood, the culture of cutting your opponents down because you disagree with them, is not a culture we should encourage. and i had thought Raila odinga had reached a point where he wanted to deal with this culture. now he is the prime minister, he is at the highest level of any government, when he does nothing and talks like a pedestrian on the street, wailing, just like any other youth, saying police should do this and that, then you realise this man is not ready to be the president of Kenya. []
====================
PS: I will faithfully, that is letter for letter, transcribe MORE minutes of this conversation IN SERIES. There is popular talk of Miguna as a mad man, so due diligence has forced me to listen to his 'talks' to define his coherence, flow of thought, that I compare to what I think a mad man would sound like. Below is the mad Jaluos MM talking. I am revisiting known definitions of madness!
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 2, 2012 14:39:52 GMT 3
Omwenga I detest liars and especially those of political sycophants.i can understand those withi little schooling, but when it comes from someone like..educated as you claim...then one must question how low one can get! Why do I say so? On two occasions on this thread, you have repeated the allegation that there is credible evidence that the events in Mombasa were stage managed. You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why! You just repeated the same line a Kanu idiot would claim of 'they have been sent'. If you cannot provide the evidence perhaps you can apologise or allow us to lower the esteem you may have earned in Jukwaa. Kamale, I don't know your level of English reading and comprehension or education but, there is a difference between the following two statements I would have to assume you know or can tell: [/b][/b], you or your handlers are the ones who organized and staged the Mombasa scene where you lost your shoe and cap" or "credible sourcing and even a lay examination of the footage from the event confirms this was a staged event intended to do desperately link Raila and ODM with your travails but all to no avail. (emphasis added)[/ul] The first is a statement of fact which, if it turns out not to be true or is simply not true on its face, then one can rightly and appropriately call it false or a lie, depending on their style, purpose and level of excitement. The second statement, however--and the one I have stated that you refer to is not a statement of fact but an informed or qualified opinion. An opinion cannot be undeniably true or patently false; it all depends on who is interpreting or perceiving it. Thus, saying a Rolls-Royce Ghost is a better car than a Bentley Continental is either true or false, depending on who is doing the evaluation. Ditto for an opinion a Mercedes Benz is better than a Volkswagen. If an opinion is predicated on an assumed fact that turns out not to be true or accurate, then the opinion is deemed to be wrong, not a lie. However, if the assumed fact is without basis to be so assumed or is assumed expressly with the intention to mislead or misinform or to simply support an untenable proposition, then we are not talking about an opinion but propaganda, which by definition is a lie. In other words, the difference between opinion and propaganda is how either stands up to scrutiny short of being proven as a fact; if it can be independently substantiated and proven, then it's neither an opinion nor propaganda but fact. A fact, on the other hand, can be true or false; accurate or inaccurate and it's not in all cases where a statement that is stated as fact but turns out to be false is a lie; there are statements that are stated as fact but turn out to be false simply because of mistake or error and those are not "lies." What I have stated as quoted above regarding the Mombasa incident is an opinion that cannot be a lie for the foregoing reasons and neither is it propaganda because the proposition analytically withstands any scrutiny one may subject it to very close to proving it as a fact. I therefore stand by what I said about the Mombasa incident, will not apologize for there is no need to for the foregoing reasons and if you or anyone else here on Jukwaa lowers their esteem of yours truly because of their inability to see these distinctions, or sees them but nonetheless finds it more consoling and satisfying to so lower his esteem, then he cannot but only feel sorry for you or them. |
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 2, 2012 14:45:47 GMT 3
2nd instalment. transcript: xx:00-09:00 RADIOMAN: Now one question I have been meaning to ask you, which is, if I could use the term, people whom we colloquially call the 'bearded sisters', people you were involved with right from campus to... some of the radical politics of the day, who were an unashamedly Marxist,... what do you have to say to them, because they obviously came with very high principles, ..... they had a view of a reformed Kenya, even if i did not agree with their principles.. and now most of them are mired in 'muck'. What would you say to them. MIGUNA: To tell you the truth, I think many of those people never believed in those principles. They, like Raila, pretended to be socialists, reformists; pretended to be social democrats, but those are just words. They used those words to delude the people into thinking they are fighting for them. They were manipulating the people. These are the people ... remember in 2007/2008 Raila Odinga sent Maina Njenga the book 48 rules of power, it means he believes in the 48 rules of power, such a silly book really, --one of which is to destroy the opposition --- yes yes, those are his principles, that is not Marxist Leninist that is not a progressive thinker. So we believed unfortunately, that these people were progressive, consistently, but now from close, up-close, working with them, I discovered No, that was just a ruse. Many of them have been involved in all kinds of corrupt deals. RADIOMAN ....would you mention some of those... MIGUNA: Well, I think they are in my book.. he he he! RADIO-CO-HOST {at the prompting of the other presenter]: Before we get into all those, I think they are more like comments now.. from twitter: I want to give you, Miguna, more opportunity to explain further, more reasons whey you wrote this book. MIGUNA: Yes, It is important for people to know that, umm, and I mention this in the book, that, before I came back, during the constitutional review process, one of my best friends, role-model, my mentor, professor Crispin Odhiambo Mbai, was brutally murdered in Kenya, and his killers have never been apprehended, convicted and sentenced. This is a tragedy I think, because he was one of the brilliant thinkers in this country; one of the people who brought up and promoted devolution as a concept in this country during Bomas, and he was also Raila's adviser and close friend, and I had spoken with all kinds of people, Raila Odinga, Anyang' Nyong'o and other ministers, asking them, pleading with them, to help me and others unravel who killed Odhiambo Mbai. and they never did anything up to this moment. There are many other people who have been assassinated, as a matter of fact right now as we are speaking, Mombasa is burning as a result of the assassination of Sheikh Rogo. This kind of killing, the killing of Oulu .. Kang'ara and the rest, this culture of blood, the culture of cutting your opponents down because you disagree with them, is not a culture we should encourage. and i had thought Raila odinga had reached a point where he wanted to deal with this culture. now he is the prime minister, he is at the highest level of any government, when he does nothing and talks like a pedestrian on the street, wailing, just like any other youth, saying police should do this and that, then you realise this man is not ready to be the president of Kenya. [] ==================== PS: I will faithfully, that is letter for letter, transcribe MORE minutes of this conversation IN SERIES. There is popular talk of Miguna as a mad man, so due diligence has forced me to listen to his 'talks' to define his coherence, flow of thought, that I compare to what I think a mad man would sound like. Below is the mad Jaluos MM talking. I am revisiting known definitions of madness! ;D ;D ;D Jakaswanga Yo,I can see you want me to peel off some more time from this last getaway for the Summer the kids insisted we must have even though they already had the obligatory one already and are back to school. Well, let me see if I can sneak a minute here and there to cobble up additional deconstruction and certification in the course of this long Labor Day weekend as it is--and this is labor of love for sure ;D |
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Post by mzee on Sept 2, 2012 16:17:34 GMT 3
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Post by abdulmote on Sept 2, 2012 19:19:26 GMT 3
I see culture of impunity written everywhere and hardly any noises coming from neither the public nor the media. It may seem that Kenyans as a society have been engulfed in the now established 'mob culture'. As a nation, we seem to have acquired the thirst for blood as our latest culture. There is almost a palpable 'lynch mob' mentality taking root everywhere and we dangerously seem appeased with such an outcome!
The Media are no longer a questioning authority. They don't want to know and conveniently turn a blind eye. The Police can hardly be asked a question which they will bother to answer honestly. It appears they have been heavily politicised and deeply compromised. To them the Moto has now been altered to read; Utumishi kwa wenyewe.
The public on the other hand takes a Que from their 'leaders'. It appears generally speaking, Kenyans now are a willing partners in matters of impunity and extra judicial activities, so long as they may seem to appease their superficial and immediate concerns. There is no more fear of the consequences of impunity tomorrow.
How such a public endorsement of impunity can be controlled exclusively for the good of the nation consistently, is anybody's toss. We are sadly a nation which is geared towards anarchy. The rule of law and attention towards the needy amongst us, is only but a dream existing in our rhetoric which seeks to appease our egos. We are a nation in the middle of invisible chaos as we scramble to grab our individual's own biggest slice of the cake.
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Mukwhasi
Full Member
Justice will live on ..
Posts: 180
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Post by Mukwhasi on Sept 2, 2012 22:22:47 GMT 3
I will be unleashing my book titled "peeling the real mask" ,people will get to know the real.........................
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 3, 2012 2:08:44 GMT 3
Previous FICTIONAL CONTENT DELETED BY THE ADMINISTRATOR for the following reasons: Omwenga:You are my friend and I always look forward to our one on one interactions. But you have done is way beyond the pale. How can you make up an IMAGINARY interview when there is an authentic one complete with a link? In your quest to bring down Miguna, please stay within the bounds and realms of ethical, honest and fair behaviour. That is why I have deleted your posting on this thread. This is the SECOND time you have done something like this- remember that FAKE "review" of the book launch days before the actual book launch? In exercising my role as the Administrator of Jukwaa I hereby issue a PUBLIC WARNING to you Samwel Omwenga not to repeat this again on Jukwaa. You are free to post anything on your blog and other online forums, but Jukwaa does have a hawk eyed Administrator. For easy reference here is the actual link to the Daily Nation interview with Miguna Miguna as it appears in the D2 section of the September 3rd edition of the paper: www.nation.co.ke/Features/DN2/Up+close+and+candid+with+Miguna+Miguna+/-/957860/1493462/-/hpi4oiz/-/index.htmlSincerely, Onyango Oloo
Jukwaa Administrator. |
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Post by kamalet on Sept 3, 2012 8:39:42 GMT 3
Omwenga I detest liars and especially those of political sycophants.i can understand those withi little schooling, but when it comes from someone like..educated as you claim...then one must question how low one can get! Why do I say so? On two occasions on this thread, you have repeated the allegation that there is credible evidence that the events in Mombasa were stage managed. You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why! You just repeated the same line a Kanu idiot would claim of 'they have been sent'. If you cannot provide the evidence perhaps you can apologise or allow us to lower the esteem you may have earned in Jukwaa. Kamale, I don't know your level of English reading and comprehension or education but, there is a difference between the following two statements I would have to assume you know or can tell: [/b][/b], you or your handlers are the ones who organized and staged the Mombasa scene where you lost your shoe and cap" or "credible sourcing and even a lay examination of the footage from the event confirms this was a staged event intended to do desperately link Raila and ODM with your travails but all to no avail. (emphasis added)[/ul] The first is a statement of fact which, if it turns out not to be true or is simply not true on its face, then one can rightly and appropriately call it false or a lie, depending on their style, purpose and level of excitement. The second statement, however--and the one I have stated that you refer to is not a statement of fact but an informed or qualified opinion. An opinion cannot be undeniably true or patently false; it all depends on who is interpreting or perceiving it. Thus, saying a Rolls-Royce Ghost is a better car than a Bentley Continental is either true or false, depending on who is doing the evaluation. Ditto for an opinion a Mercedes Benz is better than a Volkswagen. If an opinion is predicated on an assumed fact that turns out not to be true or accurate, then the opinion is deemed to be wrong, not a lie. However, if the assumed fact is without basis to be so assumed or is assumed expressly with the intention to mislead or misinform or to simply support an untenable proposition, then we are not talking about an opinion but propaganda, which by definition is a lie. In other words, the difference between opinion and propaganda is how either stands up to scrutiny short of being proven as a fact; if it can be independently substantiated and proven, then it's neither an opinion nor propaganda but fact. A fact, on the other hand, can be true or false; accurate or inaccurate and it's not in all cases where a statement that is stated as fact but turns out to be false is a lie; there are statements that are stated as fact but turn out to be false simply because of mistake or error and those are not "lies." What I have stated as quoted above regarding the Mombasa incident is an opinion that cannot be a lie for the foregoing reasons and neither is it propaganda because the proposition analytically withstands any scrutiny one may subject it to very close to proving it as a fact. I therefore stand by what I said about the Mombasa incident, will not apologize for there is no need to for the foregoing reasons and if you or anyone else here on Jukwaa lowers their esteem of yours truly because of their inability to see these distinctions, or sees them but nonetheless finds it more consoling and satisfying to so lower his esteem, then he cannot but only feel sorry for you or them.[/quote] Omwenga I am not sure if it is your location that gives you this sense that you are much wiser than us mortals in the third world. I can assure you that we are not as daft as you think we are. Do not even for a moment think that twisting the english language gives you the get our jail card! The language of 'staged' in Kenyan parlance is very clear so wacha ujanja. I asked you a simple question of who "staged" the attacks and all you are doing is chase your tail around the issue. Either Miguna "staged" the event himself as you allege or it was "staged" by someone else. |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 3, 2012 14:37:57 GMT 3
Some members keep talking blithely about the Mombasa assault on Miguna being "staged." They can chortle and prattle from their cyber-comfort zones, but Onyango Oloo has a different perspective, the perspective of an EYE WITNESS and VICTIM/TARGET. You all saw me on national television-in case there are any Doubting Thomases who think I am making stuff up. 1. I was the MC at the event. I reported live from the scene about what happened, as it was happening. Here is the link: demokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2012/08/pro-odm-goons-physically-attack-miguna.htmlIf anything, I played down the incident and did not get into sufficient detail about the severity of this barbaric attack. 2. I subsequently found out that many of these hecklers were actually ARMED, some of them with guns. 3. Somebody asked me how I knew they were pro-ODM. Well, I was the MC. Miguna had a chance to FINISH his presentation and I opened the floor for questions. The first round consisted of six questions. ALL the people who took to the floor IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES as ODM members and supporters and all the sentiments they expressed echoed their pro- ODM leanings. Besides, later they spoke to me in Dholuo, which happens to be my first language and mother tongue and they repeated the same sentiments, only this time in more colourful and forceful language. 4. Some of the police officers were in COLLUSION with the civilian attackers of Miguna. Why for instance, would the OCS lead Miguna to the STREET where the hecklers were baying for his blood, rather than a secure room within the hotel? Why did they take so long to arrive on the scene? Why did they do so little to secure the scene? A local daily had pictures of young men armed with BIG ROCKS entering and leaving the hotel premises unfettered. It is the police officers who identified Mr Green Destroyer whose name happens to be Julius, living in a part of Mombasa familiar to someone like myself who calls the coastal city my hometown. Why has Julius not been arrested? Further than that, one of the cops told Miguna to his face that he would be shot dead that day. 5. We have subsequently established that a local politician affiliated to ODM who is gunning for one of the newly created positions under our current constitution is the one who actually paid for the "services" of Mr. Green Destroyer Julius, Everlyne and their fellow hecklers. Given his deep pockets he may very well have bankrolled some of the cops too. 6. How ludicrous is this suggestion that somehow Onyango Oloo and Miguna Miguna "staged" this primitive assault on themselves. For what purpose? Are you really serious when you suggest that Miguna Miguna would have paid some goons to chase him around, snatch his cap, make him lose a shoe? For what? How could that help him sell copies of Peeling Back the Mask? The irony of all this that the same goons who disrupted the book launch in Mombasa took the precaution of LOOTING FIVE COPIES of the controversial tome. 7. Do some of us have ANY DECENCY left? Why the lies? Why the mean spirited distortions? The partisan mobs of yore in Ancient Rome where maniacal crowds hooted and guffawed as innocent people were fed to the famished lions appear placid compared to the baying mobs that I accost online on a daily basis these days. Onyango Oloo
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 3, 2012 15:53:20 GMT 3
Previous FICTIONAL CONTENT DELETED BY THE ADMINISTRATOR for the following reasons: Omwenga:You are my friend and I always look forward to our one on one interactions. But you have done is way beyond the pale. How can you make up an IMAGINARY interview when there is an authentic one complete with a link? In your quest to bring down Miguna, please stay within the bounds and realms of ethical, honest and fair behaviour. That is why I have deleted your posting on this thread. This is the SECOND time you have done something like this- remember that FAKE "review" of the book launch days before the actual book launch? In exercising my role as the Administrator of Jukwaa I hereby issue a PUBLIC WARNING to you Samwel Omwenga not to repeat this again on Jukwaa. You are free to post anything on your blog and other online forums, but Jukwaa does have a hawk eyed Administrator. For easy reference here is the actual link to the Daily Nation interview with Miguna Miguna as it appears in the D2 section of the September 3rd edition of the paper: www.nation.co.ke/Features/DN2/Up+close+and+candid+with+Miguna+Miguna+/-/957860/1493462/-/hpi4oiz/-/index.htmlSincerely, Onyango Oloo
Jukwaa Administrator.
First, what you have done here is censorship of the worst kind and coming from you, I am quite surprised. These pieces I do are called political satire or parodies. I have been doing them for a long time and will continue to do so. There is nothing "unethical, dishonest or unfair" about them. Jukwaa members, like all others who read my blogs are educated or sophisticated enough to appreciate satire or parody. If they are not, they have an option not to read as is the case with all other pieces or posts people don't appreciate or don't like. In my view, the only posts you should ban or disallow are those that violate your board rules but, as I have previously noted, I never bother to read any board or forum rules I belong to or post because I know I cannot post anything that would violate any rules, no matter how stringent because I have been blogging for a long time and intuitively know what is proper and appropriate and vice versa to post on these fora. I have been kicked out of two Kenya fora, one belonging to Shem Ochuodho, the other belonging to Matunda Nyanchama both because neither could stand the fact that I am a passionate supporter and defender of Raila, who they hate even though both can't stand each other. None of them gave me any warning; they just kicked me out and for the next several days I saw a significant spike in the number of subscribers to my blog and these happened on both occasions, even though they happened months apart. Many of these subscribers sent me private emails apologizing for these hypocrites. You are at least giving me a warning as you have done with others before you kicked them out, which I have commended you in the past for doing and do so again albeit with mixed feelings because this involves yours truly and because kicking me out for the reasons you cite is not warranted or even necessary. If Jukwaa is satire and parody free zone, then you need not worry about seeing any posted from yours truly as those who appreciate that style of writing can read it on my blog or other fora I post my blogs. BTW, you appear to suggest that I did not provide a link to the actual interview but I did!! Finally, as a friend, let me add my voice in saying what others have said you need to reevaluate your friendship with Miguna not with a view of ending it, but how you can be friends without jeopardizing other friendships and things that matter even more in principle such as flourishing freedom of expression. BTW2, do you know how many people have suddenly found out they have no friends if friendship is doing what you are doing for your friend Miguna? I am just going by my hunch here to say 90% of Jukwaists and 80% of the general population, including yours truly will not. What I know all of us would do, is to try and help our friend from self-destructing. You may not agree that Miguna is self-destructing but he is, objectively speaking. There are times where one must say, "buddy, here you're on your own!" You just cannot go about censoring people for the sake of protecting a friend or friendship. When books are written about those who smothered freedom of expression in Kenya, Onyango Oloo will be mentioned and what an irony. Those who knew him and departed before he started doing so are already turning in their graves upon hearing the shocking news and those witnessing it cannot but only shake heads in disbelief. Given the censorship is closely and actually exclusively related to the publication of a "volcanic tome" by one Miguna Miguna, however, it's hoped by all the censorship is nothing but a passing cloud much as the root cause is. |
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 3, 2012 17:02:29 GMT 3
Kamale, I don't know your level of English reading and comprehension or education but, there is a difference between the following two statements I would have to assume you know or can tell: [/b][/b], you or your handlers are the ones who organized and staged the Mombasa scene where you lost your shoe and cap" or "credible sourcing and even a lay examination of the footage from the event confirms this was a staged event intended to do desperately link Raila and ODM with your travails but all to no avail. (emphasis added)[/ul] The first is a statement of fact which, if it turns out not to be true or is simply not true on its face, then one can rightly and appropriately call it false or a lie, depending on their style, purpose and level of excitement. The second statement, however--and the one I have stated that you refer to is not a statement of fact but an informed or qualified opinion. An opinion cannot be undeniably true or patently false; it all depends on who is interpreting or perceiving it. Thus, saying a Rolls-Royce Ghost is a better car than a Bentley Continental is either true or false, depending on who is doing the evaluation. Ditto for an opinion a Mercedes Benz is better than a Volkswagen. If an opinion is predicated on an assumed fact that turns out not to be true or accurate, then the opinion is deemed to be wrong, not a lie. However, if the assumed fact is without basis to be so assumed or is assumed expressly with the intention to mislead or misinform or to simply support an untenable proposition, then we are not talking about an opinion but propaganda, which by definition is a lie. In other words, the difference between opinion and propaganda is how either stands up to scrutiny short of being proven as a fact; if it can be independently substantiated and proven, then it's neither an opinion nor propaganda but fact. A fact, on the other hand, can be true or false; accurate or inaccurate and it's not in all cases where a statement that is stated as fact but turns out to be false is a lie; there are statements that are stated as fact but turn out to be false simply because of mistake or error and those are not "lies." What I have stated as quoted above regarding the Mombasa incident is an opinion that cannot be a lie for the foregoing reasons and neither is it propaganda because the proposition analytically withstands any scrutiny one may subject it to very close to proving it as a fact. I therefore stand by what I said about the Mombasa incident, will not apologize for there is no need to for the foregoing reasons and if you or anyone else here on Jukwaa lowers their esteem of yours truly because of their inability to see these distinctions, or sees them but nonetheless finds it more consoling and satisfying to so lower his esteem, then he cannot but only feel sorry for you or them.[/quote] Omwenga I am not sure if it is your location that gives you this sense that you are much wiser than us mortals in the third world. I can assure you that we are not as daft as you think we are. Do not even for a moment think that twisting the english language gives you the get our jail card! The language of 'staged' in Kenyan parlance is very clear so wacha ujanja. I asked you a simple question of who "staged" the attacks and all you are doing is chase your tail around the issue. Either Miguna "staged" the event himself as you allege or it was "staged" by someone else.[/quote] Kamale, We have enough problems Kenyans dividing themselves according to tribe please let's not add division by global location. I have previously blogged that, even though no scientific study has been done to confirm this, I see no appreciable difference between Kenyans living abroad and those living on the ground when it comes to issues related to intellectualism or lack thereof, idiocy, stupidity, tribalism and general backwardness. In fact, other than economic advantage and "living a good life" per capita, I doubt there is any difference between Kenyans living in the diaspora and those at home so let's drop this comparison which can only but further divide us. I certainly do not believe or think I am wiser than my fellow Kenyans at home and never really even think about things like that; I say what I say and believe what I do because I am who I am not because I live where I live. Now, regarding this Mombasa incident, you say, " I asked you a simple question of who "staged" the attacks and all you are doing is chase your tail around the issue." First of all, you did not ask that I name who "staged" the Mombasa incident. This is what you said, " You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why!" What you have said there is not asking a question but merely making an assertion. When you said, " You just repeated the same line a Kanu idiot would claim of 'they have been sent.'[/i]" That was a clever way of hurling an insult that I am idiot when you obviously know I am not, ditto for name calling me a sycophant in your assertion "I detest liars and especially those of political sycophants.i can understand those withi little schooling, but when it comes from someone like..educated as you claim ...then one must question how low one can get!" Kindly go to my blog Words That Have New Meaning In 2011 and 2012 Only, omwenga.com/2011/12/05/words-that-have-new-meaning-for-2011-2012-only/ to discover the new meaning of the word "sycophant." When you said, " If you cannot provide the evidence perhaps you can apologise or allow us to lower the esteem you may have earned in Jukwaa, you were not asking a question either but making a statement. If anything from this assertion, you were requesting that I apologize for saying what I have said about this to which I responded I cannot for the reasons I stated. If it's your position now that you actually meant to ask me to produce evidence that the Mombasa incident was, in fact, stage managed, I refer you to what I have said to this point because your question is already answered. |
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Post by reporter911 on Sept 3, 2012 17:40:31 GMT 3
Miguna can tone down all he wants, but it is a useless attempted.. 1. Miguna has not substantiated all the allegations, innuendo's & rumors in his science fiction book 2. Miguna has not handed over to the Kenya police or ICC the crucial "PEV" information he announced loudly on National Media that he is withholding.. 3. Calling Kenya citizens "Robot Voters" Groupies, Goons.. is unacceptable As he shuttles all over the country like Kalonzo Musyoka did trying to Derail the ICC process ( which Kalonzo failed in his attempts) Miguna spot to fame become has become a spot of shame) As Kenyans watch him try to destroy Raila and previous friends.. One wonders who is busy advising him on his path to destruction...  |
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 3, 2012 18:09:55 GMT 3
Previous FICTIONAL CONTENT DELETED BY THE ADMINISTRATOR for the following reasons: Finally, as a friend, let me add my voice in saying what others have said you need to reevaluate your friendship with Miguna not with a view of ending it, but how you can be friends without jeopardizing other friendships and things that matter even more in principle such as flourishing freedom of expression. I have in my gmail inbox a few emails from friends a couple I didn't even know are members here about this "public warning" of yours truly but one you also know says about what I said above, "look at how he's saying you're friends but is ready to throw you out..." and I am laughing in agreement but, hey, one must really commend you for sticking to your friend this much even though as I said 90% of us will not, not because we're bad friends or don't care but because you've got to balance friendship with everything else that equally matters, if not more. A member here asked me what is the point in my series, Ganging Up Against Raila Is Ill-Advised, Devious and Undemocratic, omwenga.com/2012/08/24/ganging-up-against-raila-is-ill-advised-devious-and-undemocratic-part-ii/; the point is partly about friendship as shall be clear for all when I conclude the series. Meanwhile, everyone should email you privately and honestly answer the question whether they can go to the extent you have in defending and protecting Miguna and you tell me privately if that number is not close to what I posit in the negative. Note I say defend and protect, not promote, which is a totally different thing and you can do that as much as you wish subject only to the natural limitations governing marketing, especially over-exposure and over-saturation to the point of diminishing marginal returns going south. |
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Post by furaha on Sept 3, 2012 21:02:25 GMT 3
I see culture of impunity written everywhere and hardly any noises coming from neither the public nor the media. It may seem that Kenyans as a society have been engulfed in the now established 'mob culture'. As a nation, we seem to have acquired the thirst for blood as our latest culture. There is almost a palpable 'lynch mob' mentality taking root everywhere and we dangerously seem appeased with such an outcome!The Media are no longer a questioning authority. They don't want to know and conveniently turn a blind eye. The Police can hardly be asked a question which they will bother to answer honestly. It appears they have been heavily politicised and deeply compromised. To them the Moto has now been altered to read; Utumishi kwa wenyewe. The public on the other hand takes a Que from their 'leaders'. It appears generally speaking, Kenyans now are a willing partners in matters of impunity and extra judicial activities, so long as they may seem to appease their superficial and immediate concerns. There is no more fear of the consequences of impunity tomorrow. How such a public endorsement of impunity can be controlled exclusively for the good of the nation consistently, is anybody's toss. We are sadly a nation which is geared towards anarchy. The rule of law and attention towards the needy amongst us, is only but a dream existing in our rhetoric which seeks to appease our egos. We are a nation in the middle of invisible chaos as we scramble to grab our individual's own biggest slice of the cake. Abdulmote, At first I thought your findings were taking things a little too far but, after having given them some thought, I am afraid I can only concur. The mob culture, as you call it, is wide-spread and it is driven by the ever worsening impunity. When systems and structures fail a nation, anarchy and mob culture tend to thrive. The hope that the new constitution would usher in change is not dead but it is gasping for air. Many of those seen as potential change agents in 2010 have now shown that they were water melons all along. While anger and disappointment are palpable and wide-spread, existing structures - be they political, religious, cultural or otherwise - are unable to channel, let alone address, the grievances. So they must find expression in other ways. Call it mob culture, call it taking the law into one's own hands, call it shooting the messenger. Whatever. The manifestations may be different but they are all symptoms of the same problem. And unfortunately we have seen some of that here in Jukwaa, although not everyone will immediately recognise it for what it is. It And yet I do believe that efforts have to be found and can be found to harness the disappointment driven anger and frustration and to channel them positively. The alternatives are too terrible to contemplate. |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 3, 2012 23:11:12 GMT 3
First, what you have done here is censorship of the worst kind and coming from you, I am quite surprised...These pieces I do are called political satire or parodies. I have been doing them for a long time and will continue to do so. . I am a writer and avid lifelong student and afficionado of literature-of all genres. I recognize satire and enjoy all its variants from Jonathan Swift, George Orwell, Joseph Heller, Kurt Vonnegut Jr, H.G. Wells to Kenyans like Wahome Mutahi, Terry Hirst, Peter Kimani and Kwamchetsi Makokha.With the exception of the great American writer, director and actor Orson Welles who put his compatriots in a funk almost three quarters of a century ago when he did a famous radio broadcast spoofing the end of the world, as summarized below in this Wikipedia article: Their October 30, 1938 radio adaptation of The War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells brought Welles instant fame. The combination of the news bulletin form of the performance with the between-breaks dial spinning habits of listeners from the rival and far more popular Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy program was later reported in the media to have created widespread confusion among listeners who failed to hear the introduction, although the extent of this confusion has recently come into question.[1][21][22] Panic was reported to have spread (after citation from rumors) among many listeners who believed the news reports of a Martian invasion. The myth of the result created by the combination was reported as fact around the world and disparagingly mentioned by Adolf Hitler in a public speech a few months later....
most satirists clearly signal their work as SATIRE, expecting their audiences, readers and viewers to recognize it as such. When I talk of INTELLECTUAL dishonesty, I am talking about a situation where a Jukwaa member comes to the board and posts a made up interview or a fictional review of an event that is yet to happen and passes it on as FACTUAL REPORTAGE without an EXPLICIT DISCLAIMER UPFRONT that what they are conveying is FICTIONAL.
You see when you tuck a little disclaimer at the END of your piece it is practically as if it was not there at all. You have to preface your satire with a disclaimer so that people know that they are reading CREATIVE FICTIONAL LITERATURE as opposed to an actual report!Most postings in Jukwaa are either plain expositions, narratives or arguments, analysis and commentaries on CURRENT AFFAIRS and POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS in Kenya. Many times you see people cutting and pasting or providing links to news items/columns and stories. It is this context you have to bear in mind Brother Omwenga. Further when you post a "satirical" interview at the exact moment when a real, actual interview has been conducted and posted online then it behooves you to contextualize your alleged satire. If the satirist is someone like you, Omwenga who has first of all taken a particular partisan perspective with the subject of all things Miguna, then you have a further responsibility of explicitly stating UPFRONT that what you are sharing is a work of fiction rather than a news report or commentary on a news report-especially for the benefit of those individuals who will be reading you as if you are a journalist or a pundit. Have no fear. No one is planning to kick you out. Do not join the fray of those who of late have been kicking themselves out. Onyango Oloo
Jukwaa Administrator |
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 4, 2012 5:02:54 GMT 3
I am a writer and avid lifelong student and afficionado of literature-of all genres. I recognize satire and enjoy all its variants from Jonathan Swift, George Orwell, Joseph Heller, Kurt Vonnegut Jr, H.G. Wells to Kenyans like Wahome Mutahi, Terry Hirst, Peter Kimani and Kwamchetsi Makokha. Did you recognize my piece as satire? What about the other ones I have previously penned, even though I think I have only posted one other one here? Others I have previously penned that have nothing to do with Miguna include, A Conversation with Deputy Prime Minister and Minister For Finance Uhuru Kenyatta, omwenga.com/2011/07/31/a-conversation-with-deputy-prime-minister-and-minister-for-finance-hon-uhuru-kenyatta/A Conversation With Kalonzo Musyoka, omwenga.com/2011/04/11/a-conversation-with-kalonzo-musyoka/The Difference Between Die-Hard Railaists and Die-Hard Anti-Railaists, omwenga.com/2011/08/21/the-difference-between-die-hard-railaists-and-die-hard-anti-railaists/ penned August 11, predicting events of a year later, August 27, 2012, the then expected election date. You can change the date to March 4, 2013 and same analysis and prediction still remains valid. Granted, none of these were posted on Jukwaa but I can tell you even the targets of the satire appreciated and laughed them off and I know because I know their people, including my own brother who is a good friend of one of them--and the one I have been blogging I am working on to change his tune to singing Awambo tu. Talk about friendship; it's taken almost 5 years to try and persuade this brother of mine that Raila is the man but he and 26 other Kenyans have adamant Kalonzo is the man  Anyhow, as noted above, even friendship must give way for more important things like saving a nation as shall be the case with the reelection of Raila as our fourth President. This somewhat falls into the Clintonian "what the meaning of 'is' is;" what does "clearly signal" mean? What may be a clear signal to one maybe a total blur to another. In fact, for a true satirist, figuring the signals is part of the satire!!!! Every satirist has his or her own ways of cluing in his or her readers; mine, it depends. On this piece in particular, there was a clue in the title and, just before the Q & A, I identified the players as "Actors!" The third clue was this statement " They understandably wanted a piece of me but thank goodness my new pals from the benefactors of my crusade against Raila were handy to calm things down and whisk me out of there." Now, I'll give this much, and this actually involves the "preview" of the book launch. A very good friend called me after reading it and his first words out of his mouth after a minute or so of greetings were, "so he has fled the country!" and as he was busy giving me his own analysis and concurrence with what I said, I managed to interject and asked him, "did you notice the date at the very beginning of the blog?" He said no. Well, the date was "Sunday, July 15, 2012," which was a good 3 days before the actual launch date. Now, was that a "clear signal" this may be a satirical piece? Here is my answer: It depends; my regular readers would see the date and immediately know I am serving satire. For someone reading me for the first time, and especially if they are Luo or know some of these basic Luo words most people would know, Clue #2 was in the second paragraph with my use of "Janeko." I can go on but I am sure you get my point; we're now quibbling over what the meaning of "is" is--so, given what you have said about what your concern is, namely, your belief my satirical pieces are not sufficiently identified as such UPFRONT, are you saying therefore you're rethinking your ban of my satirical pieces on Jukwaa, provided I so indicate they are? Would the use of big, bold letters to announce "SATIRE" or "FICTION" UPFRONT satisfy you? Because if so, I really don't have a problem with that; I don't think it's necessary but, hey, it's your board, your rules that rule! I have actually just addressed this except I should state categorically that I have not and will not try and pass any satirical piece as "factual reportage;" and I actually append a disclaimer to all of them to this effect.
You see when you tuck a little disclaimer at the END of your piece it is practically as if it was not there at all. [/quote] I severely disagree, to use Mitt Romney's usage of the word. [/b] [/quote] That's your preference, which is fine, mine is to provide enough clues from the very top on down. Based on feedback I get, some people pick out this is satire with the very first clue, otherwise find out midway and yet some like the one reader I reference above read never do even after reading the whole thing and that's just comical in its own right ;D My satirical pieces actually run the gamut, including many of these. I notice your emphasis on the present but looking to the future is also part of this discourse; in fact, everything we say and do is expressly to address the future. I am fairly certain brother Oloo that we're not in disagreement over anything profound; you just have an issue with my pieces on Miguna, which I perfectly understand just as I am sure you understand exactly what I am saying, namely, what I write is normal in political discourse and should not be banned. You're actually factually incorrect. I penned and posted my piece after the DN published its interview with Miguna; in fact, I read the interview and then decided to do the satirical piece. Also, I fully disclosed this was a parody of the interview and provided a link to it so you are quite wrong on this. I have already addressed this. I have no fear and have actually had none that you will kick me out for if you were to do so, it'll be nothing I would hold against you, even though it would really surprise me. When the other characters Ochuodho and Matunda kicked me out of their joints, it was predictable. Here is My Farewell To, And My Commemoration of My Brief Dalience With NVK omwenga.com/2011/09/04/my-farewell-to-and-commemoration-of-my-brief-dalience-with-nvk/ for those who care to read what happened with one of these hypocrites. That, I can promise you I won't; you'll have to kick me out yourself! ;D I am back in Nairobi soon; let me hope the cloud would have passed by then and we can look back and laugh about all of this; well, let's laugh it off anyway. BTW, you will like a piece whose idea came to my mind a few days ago as I was watching a documentary of a certain communist politician I am sure you'll know. P.S. Sorry all, no time to fix the formatting |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 4, 2012 6:24:13 GMT 3
My Brother Omwenga:Let me reiterate a few things: 1. Jukwaa is a platform that encourages and promotes critical and democratic debate about a whole range of issues from the political, the economic, the social, the cultural, the ideological, the technological and much more. 2. There is no particular preferred "line" that is the official "party line" in Jukwaa. For years those from the PNU affiliated camp used to peddle the falsehood that Jukwaa was an ODM forum. Now the ODM die hards in Jukwaa are trying to imply that Onyango Oloo, the Administrator of Jukwaa is working for PNU, TNA and the like! 3. It is simply not true that Onyango Oloo brooks no dissent from people who do not think like him. As everyone knows, I PUBLICLY identify myself as a COMMUNIST; I reassert my MARXIST-LENINIST principles as frequently as I can. Yet, how many people in Jukwaa are Communists? How many threads are currently running on Jukwaa? How many of those threads concur with the views of Onyango Oloo? How many ACTIVELY are opposed to what Onyango Oloo thinks? How many of those contrarian threads have been deleted or pulled down? The facts mock those who accuse me of being dictatorial or intolerant. 4. This is a MODERATED board which is run by a firm administrator who has no qualms about issuing warnings, deleting inappropriate posts, suspending and kicking out members. 5. Satires, lampoons, parodies, spoofs and send ups are ALLOWED as long as they are SPECIFICALLY labelled as such to avoid being CONFUSED with straight up factual reportage. 6. It is OK, it is FINE, it is ALLOWED to trash Miguna Miguna 60 minutes an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 34 days a month, 14 months a year. Although it is not very useful. If these attacks are PERSONAL, PETTY, VINDICTIVE, FALSE or MEAN SPIRITED rather than ISSUE-BASED, they will be pulled down- just like if people attacked Omwenga or any other Jukwaa member on the same personalized, petty, vindictive, false or mean spirited trajectory. 7. Onyango Oloo will remain his consistent, frank, independent and open minded self. I am not running to be MP, Senator, Governor, President or any other elective post, so I am not interested in any popularity contests. I really do not care if the entire world hates me for holding on to some opinions or defending certain ideological positions. Over the last two years I have been spurned and shunned by some of my very good friends in Kenyan civil society for my very public defence of the TJRC Chair Ambassador Bethwell Kiplagat; in 2003 I broke ranks with some of my comrades when I opposed the move to hound Bernard Chunga out of the Chief Justice office- even though the same Chunga personally prosecuted me and hundreds of other political prisoners; I defended the right of Gideon Moi to hold political rallies in Baringo in the post KANU period when some overzealous NARC era bureau/securocrat wanted to banish the same. I could go on and on and on. That is why my position in regards Miguna's democratic and constitutional rights is not an anomaly. In this regard I humbly request you to stop choosing my friends for me. That is what a far greater man than myself, Nelson Mandela, told the West when they were castigating the South African statesman for his close links to Cuba's Fidel Castro and Libya's Muamar Gaddafi. To the curious, here are my pieces on Gideon Moi, Bernard Chunga and Bethwell Kiplagat:www.mashada.com/forums/politics/3199-does-gideon-moi-have-human-rights.html#post28535www.mashada.com/forums/politics/2110-calls-bernard-chunga-s-resignation.htmldemokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2010/02/on-mob-justice-mentality-of-progressive.htmlOnyango Oloo
Nairobi
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Post by kamalet on Sept 4, 2012 9:34:34 GMT 3
Omwenga I am not sure if it is your location that gives you this sense that you are much wiser than us mortals in the third world. I can assure you that we are not as daft as you think we are. Do not even for a moment think that twisting the english language gives you the get our jail card! The language of 'staged' in Kenyan parlance is very clear so wacha ujanja. I asked you a simple question of who "staged" the attacks and all you are doing is chase your tail around the issue. Either Miguna "staged" the event himself as you allege or it was "staged" by someone else. Kamale, We have enough problems Kenyans dividing themselves according to tribe please let's not add division by global location. I have previously blogged that, even though no scientific study has been done to confirm this, I see no appreciable difference between Kenyans living abroad and those living on the ground when it comes to issues related to intellectualism or lack thereof, idiocy, stupidity, tribalism and general backwardness. In fact, other than economic advantage and "living a good life" per capita, I doubt there is any difference between Kenyans living in the diaspora and those at home so let's drop this comparison which can only but further divide us. I certainly do not believe or think I am wiser than my fellow Kenyans at home and never really even think about things like that; I say what I say and believe what I do because I am who I am not because I live where I live. Now, regarding this Mombasa incident, you say, " I asked you a simple question of who "staged" the attacks and all you are doing is chase your tail around the issue." First of all, you did not ask that I name who "staged" the Mombasa incident. This is what you said, " You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why!" What you have said there is not asking a question but merely making an assertion. When you said, " You just repeated the same line a Kanu idiot would claim of 'they have been sent.'[/i]" That was a clever way of hurling an insult that I am idiot when you obviously know I am not, ditto for name calling me a sycophant in your assertion "I detest liars and especially those of political sycophants.i can understand those withi little schooling, but when it comes from someone like..educated as you claim ...then one must question how low one can get!" Kindly go to my blog Words That Have New Meaning In 2011 and 2012 Only, omwenga.com/2011/12/05/words-that-have-new-meaning-for-2011-2012-only/ to discover the new meaning of the word "sycophant." When you said, " If you cannot provide the evidence perhaps you can apologise or allow us to lower the esteem you may have earned in Jukwaa, you were not asking a question either but making a statement. If anything from this assertion, you were requesting that I apologize for saying what I have said about this to which I responded I cannot for the reasons I stated. If it's your position now that you actually meant to ask me to produce evidence that the Mombasa incident was, in fact, stage managed, I refer you to what I have said to this point because your question is already answered.[/quote] Omwenga I do not think being all wordy and going round and round the issue without answering makes you look very clever. Likening your flawed thinking to the antics of Kanu idiots means just that and it is your call whether you think fall in the category of Kanu idiots especially when you make unsubstantiated allegations and hope they can stand! First of all, you did not ask that I name who "staged" the Mombasa incident. This is what you said, " You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why!" I shall leave it to your wisdom to see the meaning of the underlined phrase. |
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 4, 2012 12:22:14 GMT 3
Kamale, We have enough problems Kenyans dividing themselves according to tribe please let's not add division by global location. I have previously blogged that, even though no scientific study has been done to confirm this, I see no appreciable difference between Kenyans living abroad and those living on the ground when it comes to issues related to intellectualism or lack thereof, idiocy, stupidity, tribalism and general backwardness. In fact, other than economic advantage and "living a good life" per capita, I doubt there is any difference between Kenyans living in the diaspora and those at home so let's drop this comparison which can only but further divide us. I certainly do not believe or think I am wiser than my fellow Kenyans at home and never really even think about things like that; I say what I say and believe what I do because I am who I am not because I live where I live. Now, regarding this Mombasa incident, you say, " I asked you a simple question of who "staged" the attacks and all you are doing is chase your tail around the issue." First of all, you did not ask that I name who "staged" the Mombasa incident. This is what you said, " You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why!" What you have said there is not asking a question but merely making an assertion. When you said, " You just repeated the same line a Kanu idiot would claim of 'they have been sent.'[/i]" That was a clever way of hurling an insult that I am idiot when you obviously know I am not, ditto for name calling me a sycophant in your assertion "I detest liars and especially those of political sycophants.i can understand those withi little schooling, but when it comes from someone like..educated as you claim ...then one must question how low one can get!" Kindly go to my blog Words That Have New Meaning In 2011 and 2012 Only, omwenga.com/2011/12/05/words-that-have-new-meaning-for-2011-2012-only/ to discover the new meaning of the word "sycophant." When you said, " If you cannot provide the evidence perhaps you can apologise or allow us to lower the esteem you may have earned in Jukwaa, you were not asking a question either but making a statement. If anything from this assertion, you were requesting that I apologize for saying what I have said about this to which I responded I cannot for the reasons I stated. If it's your position now that you actually meant to ask me to produce evidence that the Mombasa incident was, in fact, stage managed, I refer you to what I have said to this point because your question is already answered.[/quote] Omwenga I do not think being all wordy and going round and round the issue without answering makes you look very clever. Likening your flawed thinking to the antics of Kanu idiots means just that and it is your call whether you think fall in the category of Kanu idiots especially when you make unsubstantiated allegations and hope they can stand! First of all, you did not ask that I name who "staged" the Mombasa incident. This is what you said, " You have offered absolutely no evidence to such stage managing or even who did it and why!" I shall leave it to your wisdom to see the meaning of the underlined phrase. [/quote] Kwani we Kamale hapana iko huruma; unaona simba nataka maliza mimi na we naendelea kutafuta njia ya kushika mguu no kuuma kidogo? Anyway, let's just say any further response on this point will be repeating ourselves, shall we? |
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Post by Omwenga on Sept 4, 2012 12:35:43 GMT 3
My Brother Omwenga:Let me reiterate a few things: 1. Jukwaa is a platform that encourages and promotes critical and democratic debate about a whole range of issues from the political, the economic, the social, the cultural, the ideological, the technological and much more. 2. There is no particular preferred "line" that is the official "party line" in Jukwaa. For years those from the PNU affiliated camp used to peddle the falsehood that Jukwaa was an ODM forum. Now the ODM die hards in Jukwaa are trying to imply that Onyango Oloo, the Administrator of Jukwaa is working for PNU, TNA and the like! 3. It is simply not true that Onyango Oloo brooks no dissent from people who do not think like him. As everyone knows, I PUBLICLY identify myself as a COMMUNIST; I reassert my MARXIST-LENINIST principles as frequently as I can. Yet, how many people in Jukwaa are Communists? How many threads are currently running on Jukwaa? How many of those threads concur with the views of Onyango Oloo? How many ACTIVELY are opposed to what Onyango Oloo thinks? How many of those contrarian threads have been deleted or pulled down? The facts mock those who accuse me of being dictatorial or intolerant. 4. This is a MODERATED board which is run by a firm administrator who has no qualms about issuing warnings, deleting inappropriate posts, suspending and kicking out members. 5. Satires, lampoons, parodies, spoofs and send ups are ALLOWED as long as they are SPECIFICALLY labelled as such to avoid being CONFUSED with straight up factual reportage. 6. It is OK, it is FINE, it is ALLOWED to trash Miguna Miguna 60 minutes an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 34 days a month, 14 months a year. Although it is not very useful. If these attacks are PERSONAL, PETTY, VINDICTIVE, FALSE or MEAN SPIRITED rather than ISSUE-BASED, they will be pulled down- just like if people attacked Omwenga or any other Jukwaa member on the same personalized, petty, vindictive, false or mean spirited trajectory. 7. Onyango Oloo will remain his consistent, frank, independent and open minded self. I am not running to be MP, Senator, Governor, President or any other elective post, so I am not interested in any popularity contests. I really do not care if the entire world hates me for holding on to some opinions or defending certain ideological positions. Over the last two years I have been spurned and shunned by some of my very good friends in Kenyan civil society for my very public defence of the TJRC Chair Ambassador Bethwell Kiplagat; in 2003 I broke ranks with some of my comrades when I opposed the move to hound Bernard Chunga out of the Chief Justice office- even though the same Chunga personally prosecuted me and hundreds of other political prisoners; I defended the right of Gideon Moi to hold political rallies in Baringo in the post KANU period when some overzealous NARC era bureau/securocrat wanted to banish the same. I could go on and on and on. That is why my position in regards Miguna's democratic and constitutional rights is not an anomaly. In this regard I humbly request you to stop choosing my friends for me. That is what a far greater man than myself, Nelson Mandela, told the West when they were castigating the South African statesman for his close links to Cuba's Fidel Castro and Libya's Muamar Gaddafi. To the curious, here are my pieces on Gideon Moi, Bernard Chunga and Bethwell Kiplagat:www.mashada.com/forums/politics/3199-does-gideon-moi-have-human-rights.html#post28535www.mashada.com/forums/politics/2110-calls-bernard-chunga-s-resignation.htmldemokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2010/02/on-mob-justice-mentality-of-progressive.htmlOnyango Oloo
Nairobi
Your reiteration is noted. As I said, I don't see any fundamental disagreement here. I also specifically take note of your point #5 which resolves that which is at the core of what started all this. I consider the issue closed and amicably so much as I am sure you do as well. Tukutane Nairobi soon. BTW, I heard this thread was "Breaking News" in some anti-Raila forum and all I can say when told and saw what was said there is, we have a long way to go to bring civilization to some of our people. Not only do we have to combat and deal with corruption and impunity, we also must combat and deal with hatred, jealousy and general backwardness and primitivity which is shockingly prevalent even among the so-called educated and informed people. How sad, indeed. |
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Anyhow, as noted above, even friendship must give way for more important things like saving a nation as shall be the case with the reelection of Raila as our fourth President.