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Post by kamalet on Mar 6, 2013 17:21:12 GMT 3
The logic is this: the vote is not valid. It has been cast but it is not valid since it is not decipherable what the voter intended. They have all been counted and tallied as required by Katiba. RR, Katiba issue aside, once a ballot paper has been correctly marked by the voter, by appropriately choosing their preferred candidate, using appropriate paper, then there should be nothing else that needs to be "deciphered". The voter's intention would have been obvious at that stage. Putting the paper into any specific box should only be a matter of convenience towards the final sorting and counting and has nothing to do with the voter's choice. I still don't get it. Abdulmote It is a case of chaos avoidance!!! Can you imagine having to delay counting of votes as you first sort out the the ballot papers by seat being contested? Hence the rules being in place to make the process efficient!! |
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Post by roughrider on Mar 6, 2013 17:21:27 GMT 3
The logic is this: the vote is not valid. It has been cast but it is not valid since it is not decipherable what the voter intended. They have all been counted and tallied as required by Katiba. RR, Katiba issue aside, once a ballot paper has been correctly marked by the voter, by appropriately choosing their preferred candidate, using appropriate paper, then there should be nothing else that needs to be "deciphered". The voter's intention would have been obvious at that stage. Putting the paper into any specific box should only be a matter of convenience towards the final sorting and counting and has nothing to do with the voter's choice. I still don't get it. Abdulmote; I wish things were this simple. Presidential ballots were counted and tallied and sealed first. Then others. In fact candidates have already been declared on that basis. So if we were to follow your logic, we would have to o back to every county and and every constituency and every polling centre, open the boxes and sort them out. First to find out what the problem with each rejected ballot and deciding what to do with them. That could takes weeks and the IEBC has promised that there will be an audit later. But let me reiterate, nobody should purport to put my ballot in the 'right' box when I deliberately placed it in the wrong box. |
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 6, 2013 17:39:03 GMT 3
The logic is this: the vote is not valid. It has been cast but it is not valid since it is not decipherable what the voter intended. They have all been counted and tallied as required by Katiba. RR, Katiba issue aside, once a ballot paper has been correctly marked by the voter, by appropriately choosing their preferred candidate, using appropriate paper, then there should be nothing else that needs to be "deciphered". The voter's intention would have been obvious at that stage. Putting the paper into any specific box should only be a matter of convenience towards the final sorting and counting and has nothing to do with the voter's choice. I still don't get it. Then it boils down to rules or guidelines issued out to the electorate and the IEBC officials on the voting and what could lead to a vote being categorized as "Rejected vote " You had previously requested for explanation on logic behind rejecting ballot papers that have been cast in wrong colored boxes In simple layman type of an example , likewise in any examinations there are different type of questions which require different type of answers in different designated spaces,answer papers or boxes etc In a scenario you answer a question in a designated space for a different question will the answer carry any marks ? therein you have your answer. |
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Post by mank on Mar 6, 2013 17:54:50 GMT 3
RR, Katiba issue aside, once a ballot paper has been correctly marked by the voter, by appropriately choosing their preferred candidate, using appropriate paper, then there should be nothing else that needs to be "deciphered". The voter's intention would have been obvious at that stage. Putting the paper into any specific box should only be a matter of convenience towards the final sorting and counting and has nothing to do with the voter's choice. I still don't get it. Then it boils down to rules or guidelines issued out to the electorate and the IEBC officials on the voting and what could lead to a vote being categorized as "Rejected vote " You had previously requested for explanation on logic behind rejecting ballot papers that have been cast in wrong colored boxes In simple layman type of an example , likewise in any examinations there are different type of questions which require different type of answers in different designated spaces,answer papers or boxes etc In a scenario you answer a question in a designated space for a different question will the answer carry any marks ? therein you have your answer. , That anology is not fitting though. In the case you present, an answer to a given question will be wrong if given under a different question. However, if you realize that you answered a question in the wrong space, and give the teacher a note that the answer applies to Qsn x rather than y, a reasonable teacher should examine the answer. I am with Abdulmote on the matter: in other words I distinguish between an ambiguous response on a ballot paper (one in which you cannot tell with certainty who the voter intended to vote for), and erroneous placement of the paper. Just like post offices sort and redirect misrouted mail, IEBC should reroute misplaced but correctly filled ballots. Of course such will mess with wierd expressions like the one RR expresses. I think only one person would be adversely affected in the entire country! I don't think any guidelines were written with the intention of counting invalid votes. Its a paradox to call something invalid and still count it when counting what is valid. The idea that they should be counted among all votes cast, but not among votes cast for any candidates, will additionally introduce more options of screwing around. It is easier to cheat when a number should be included somewhere but not everywhere in the algorithm, than when it should not be included at all ... even reasonable people are easier to fool should a clerk want to indulge in mischief when "invalid" ballots are supposed to count in the 100% base but not anywhere among candidates - there are more specifics to pay to which to pay attention in the former case. |
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Post by cheshirecat on Mar 6, 2013 17:58:07 GMT 3
Can I ask why the IEBC is not taking this issue to the Supreme court for guidance and interpretation? isn't this what the judiciary exists for?
in a country on edge and that could burst into flames in short notice, wouldn't this be the most responsible thing to do?
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Post by abdulmote on Mar 6, 2013 18:11:38 GMT 3
I still maintain my position and you don't have to agree with it; I don't think any candidate should be denied their rightful, correctly marked vote, simply because it was placed in a 'wrong coloured' box! The tallying logistics and methodologies should have taken such possible errors in consideration and provided for their inclusion appropriately. In trying to be too perfect, it seems we are getting absolutely wrong as a result.
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 6, 2013 18:11:49 GMT 3
Then it boils down to rules or guidelines issued out to the electorate and the IEBC officials on the voting and what could lead to a vote being categorized as "Rejected vote " You had previously requested for explanation on logic behind rejecting ballot papers that have been cast in wrong colored boxes In simple layman type of an example , likewise in any examinations there are different type of questions which require different type of answers in different designated spaces,answer papers or boxes etc In a scenario you answer a question in a designated space for a different question will the answer carry any marks ? therein you have your answer. , That anology is not fitting though. In the case you present, an answer to a given question will be wrong if given under a different question. However, if you realize that you answered a question in the wrong space, and give the teacher a note that the answer applies to Qsn x rather than y, a reasonable teacher should examine the answer. I am with Abdulmote on the matter: in other words I distinguish between an ambiguous response on a ballot paper (one in which you cannot tell with certainty who the voter intended to vote for), and erroneous placement of the paper. Just like post offices sort and redirect misrouted mail, IEBC should reroute misplaced but correctly filled ballots. Of course such will mess with wierd expressions like the one RR expresses. I think only one person would be adversely affected in the entire country though! Take an example of the K.C.S.E. exams where the markers are unknown to the examined ( candidates) and use of a strict marking scheme with the marking center being far away from the reach of the candidates and include the fact that the marking is done at a different time, long after the examination sitting .This is the scenario we have with G.E. and polling centers. It will be practically impossible to explain to the marker that one answered a question in the wrong place . Imagine if this was to happen to majority of the exam candidates having answered questions in the wrong designated spaces, it would just lead to chaos and it is for this reason why there are rules , instructions or guidelines to have an effective and efficient process be it examination or electoral . |
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Post by roughrider on Mar 6, 2013 18:13:30 GMT 3
Can I ask why the IEBC is not taking this issue to the Supreme court for guidance and interpretation? isn't this what the judiciary exists for? in a country on edge and that could burst into flames in short notice, wouldn't this be the most responsible thing to do? There is no reason to go to Supreme Court. The head of IEBC is a respected lawyer. He, in his role as the returning officer for presidential contest has already clarified how 'rejected' ballots will be treated. Those of us who voted this way are happy with the strong showing we are making. It was our intention to force a runoff and we are glad that we are headed there. Unfortunately Raila seems to be gathering too many votes and we may become irrelevant. |
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Post by b6k on Mar 6, 2013 18:20:13 GMT 3
Why would the supporters of a strong candidate want to force a runoff? Sounds to me like someone wanting to take credit for acts they had little control over when things began to go south. Wonders never cease....
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Post by mank on Mar 6, 2013 18:34:58 GMT 3
nowayhaha, That anology is not fitting though. In the case you present, an answer to a given question will be wrong if given under a different question. However, if you realize that you answered a question in the wrong space, and give the teacher a note that the answer applies to Qsn x rather than y, a reasonable teacher should examine the answer. I am with Abdulmote on the matter: in other words I distinguish between an ambiguous response on a ballot paper (one in which you cannot tell with certainty who the voter intended to vote for), and erroneous placement of the paper. Just like post offices sort and redirect misrouted mail, IEBC should reroute misplaced but correctly filled ballots. Of course such will mess with wierd expressions like the one RR expresses. I think only one person would be adversely affected in the entire country though! Take an example of the K.C.S.E. exams where the markers are unknown to the examined ( candidates) and use of a strict marking scheme with the marking center being far away from the reach of the candidates and include the fact that the marking is done at a different time, long after the examination sitting .This is the scenario we have with G.E. and polling centers. It will be practically impossible to explain to the marker that one answered a question in the wrong place . Imagine if this was to happen to majority of the exam candidates having answered questions in the wrong designated spaces, it would just lead to chaos and it is for this reason why there are rules , instructions or guidelines to have an effective and efficient process be it examination or electoral . , True, but I think exam is not the best analogy. The thing is that election is not like an exam ... its is about expressing voters' opinions. Voters are not being test "fail" or "pass". That is why there is voting assistance, including how to fill the ballots and where to drop the filled ballot. Now, the same effort that could have corrected a voter who was about to place the ballot in the wrong box could help in correctly placing the ballot after it is incorrectly placed ... but IEBC cannot read voters minds when the ballot is incorrectly filled. Let's think about the mail system. If you erroneosly put your domestic letter through the slot where overseas mail is supposed to be dropped, are you really of the mind that the letter should not reach its destination because you seem to suggest it should go overseas even though you have correctly put a valid domestic address? I believe if correctly filled ballots are not counted a candidate who imagines that incorrectly placed ballots would make a favourable difference will definitely successfully challenge the result. I think it would be linient to the system to avoid unnecessary challenges by making the most rational decision in the first instance. |
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Post by abdulmote on Mar 6, 2013 18:47:16 GMT 3
Mank,
Heshima kwako and thanks for helping to clarify this seemingly simple point. I think if this issue was to go to the courts, then I am afraid RR will find himself to have denied his favourite candidate his long awaited vote.
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Post by mank on Mar 6, 2013 19:15:04 GMT 3
Mank,
Heshima kwako and thanks for helping to clarify this seemingly simple point. I think if this issue was to go to the courts, then I am afraid RR will find himself to have denied his favourite candidate his long awaited vote. Na vile vile kwako Abdulmote, I agree with you; once reason rules, RR will regret his move. I believe all correctly filled ballots will ultimately count unless the candidate who ends up being disadvantaged does not see hope in counting the misplaced. The losing candidate will however see value in a challenge if he anticipates that counting those ballots could lead to a run off that is otherwise ruled unnecessary. I actually don't understand RR's logic. I get it that he's abset with ICC indictees being on the ballot but I do not follow his logic of how casting an invalid ballot is an expression of his disgust. Don't feel obliged to explain, but if you follow the logic and feel to explain, I will appreciate it. Likewise I invite RR to offer further insights, should he feel free to. |
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 6, 2013 19:26:54 GMT 3
Take an example of the K.C.S.E. exams where the markers are unknown to the examined ( candidates) and use of a strict marking scheme with the marking center being far away from the reach of the candidates and include the fact that the marking is done at a different time, long after the examination sitting .This is the scenario we have with G.E. and polling centers. It will be practically impossible to explain to the marker that one answered a question in the wrong place . Imagine if this was to happen to majority of the exam candidates having answered questions in the wrong designated spaces, it would just lead to chaos and it is for this reason why there are rules , instructions or guidelines to have an effective and efficient process be it examination or electoral . , True, but I think exam is not the best analogy. The thing is that election is not like an exam ... its is about expressing voters' opinions. Voters are not being test "fail" or "pass". That is why there is voting assistance, including how to fill the ballots and where to drop the filled ballot. Now, the same effort that could have corrected a voter who was about to place the ballot in the wrong box could help in correctly placing the ballot after it is incorrectly placed ... but IEBC cannot read voters minds when the ballot is incorrectly filled. Let's think about the mail system. If you erroneosly put your domestic letter through the slot where overseas mail is supposed to be dropped, are you really of the mind that the letter should not reach its destination because you seem to suggest it should go overseas even though you have correctly put a valid domestic address? I believe if correctly filled ballots are not counted a candidate who imagines that incorrectly placed ballots would make a favourable difference will definitely successfully challenge the result. I think it would be linient to the system to avoid unnecessary challenges by making the most rational decision in the first instance. Agreed exams and elections are different processes but as earlier stated this was just but an example On voting assistance this should be provided during the voting and not after the voting else this can create room for malpractices and thus lead to rigging . To give credit where its due the Officials were their aiding and helping any person who asked for assistance and if the assistance asked for was to show where one needs to ballot the different papers in the different colored boxes this was provided. If we are to learn from this years General elections then its either we as nation we need to up civic education and this should not be left to IEBC only every sector should play its role from the media , political parties and also you and I or conduct the Presidential elections away from the other elections i.e. senator , Governor e.t.c. as most complaints on rejected voters are being attributed to the Presidential elections . Once again to answer Abdulmotes question which started this conversation is it all boils down to guidelines , rules and instructions which were provided by IEBC on the voting to the voters and officials and what could make a vote being categorized as a " rejected vote " |
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Post by cheshirecat on Mar 6, 2013 19:29:51 GMT 3
Can I ask why the IEBC is not taking this issue to the Supreme court for guidance and interpretation? isn't this what the judiciary exists for? in a country on edge and that could burst into flames in short notice, wouldn't this be the most responsible thing to do? There is no reason to go to Supreme Court. The head of IEBC is a respected lawyer. He, in his role as the returning officer for presidential contest has already clarified how 'rejected' ballots will be treated. Those of us who voted this way are happy with the strong showing we are making. It was our intention to force a runoff and we are glad that we are headed there. Unfortunately Raila seems to be gathering too many votes and we may become irrelevant. Courts dont exist because there are no 'brilliant lawyers' who can make judgment calls regarding the constitution but because they represent a fairly transparent and non-personal way to make legal decisions. leaving a fairly unclear legal decision with possible frightening ramifications to a single man sounds like we are going down the kivuitu road, In any case how long would it take for the Supreme court to listen to both lawyers and make a call? An hour? two? |
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Post by kamalet on Mar 6, 2013 19:44:50 GMT 3
Why would the supporters of a strong candidate want to force a runoff? Sounds to me like someone wanting to take credit for acts they had little control over when things began to go south. Wonders never cease.... The information I am getting is that both Cord and Jubilee have their results and I was asked to look at the different reactions we are getting from each camp. From what I gather is that the margin of the vote is very close with Jubilee making the 50% +1 and Cord not making it. It is on account of this that last night the issue of the rejected votes was brought up with the intention of forcing a run off which Cord believe they can win. It is for this reason that Jubilee are livid and complaining that the change in rules is intended to rob them of their victory by forcing a run off! Now you know....! |
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Post by abdulmote on Mar 6, 2013 19:57:02 GMT 3
Fair enough Kamalet,
Two issues crop up which cannot be ignored; Firstly: the Constitution is clear when it comes to the percentages; it talks about the "votes cast", period. It does not talk of whether the said cast votes should only be the 'valid' ones or include the so called "rejected" ones. If parties fail to agree on this one as is likely going to be the case, the SC will have to play its expected role.
Secondly, amongst the "rejected votes" therein will be some of the "correctly marked votes", but arguably put into the "wrong coloured boxes". This is where I personally find it difficult to accept the logic applied. Again, Mutunga et all will have to make their call.
We are in for a looong haul.
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Post by roughrider on Mar 6, 2013 20:04:23 GMT 3
Fair enough Kamalet, Two issues crop up which cannot be ignored; Firstly: the Constitution is clear when it comes to the percentages; it talks about the "votes cast", period. It does not talk of whether the said cast votes should only be the 'valid' ones or include the so called "rejected" ones. If parties fail to agree on this one as is likely going to be the case, the SC will have to play its expected role. Secondly, amongst the "rejected votes" therein will be some of the "correctly marked votes", but arguably put into the "wrong coloured boxes". This is where I personally find it difficult to accept the logic applied. Again, Mutunga et all will have to make their call. We are in for a looong haul. Kamale is engaging in propaganda. TNA is loosing this one according to tallies. Coming here to interpret 'reaction' of the camps as a way to tell what results are suggests he does not know what he is talking about. |
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 6, 2013 23:10:17 GMT 3
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Post by gemagema on Mar 7, 2013 1:25:04 GMT 3
Wow! Its unfortunate that most of the guys arguing here about who had how many votes actually do not have intimate access to Jubilee or CORD tallies respectively. Notwithstanding...we have a few, who know the exact numbers of each candindate...for example RR. I cite RR because i am also privy to this information...
Listen...both CORD and Jubilee had their agents at all polling stations...hence each of them know how much each candidate attained
So let us not make so much noise, yet we have not the real information about the numbers
Let us wait for the analogue count to come to an end...then we can prove each other wrong
Hint: Why are Jumbilee quarters jittery? If they claim popularity, they should be able to comfortably get the votes they already have, plus more during the Run Off. Hence ... and to borrow Miguna's cliche...they should say "Come, Run-Off, Come"
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Post by mank on Mar 7, 2013 1:31:21 GMT 3
Wow! Its unfortunate that most of the guys arguing here about who had how many votes actually do not have intimate access to Jubilee or CORD tallies respectively. Notwithstanding...we have a few, who know the exact numbers of each candindate...for example RR. I cite RR because i am also privy to this information...
Listen...both CORD and Jubilee had their agents at all polling stations...hence each of them know how much each candidate attained
So let us not make so much noise, yet we have not the real information about the numbers
Let us wait for the analogue count to come to an end...then we can prove each other wrong
Hint: Why are Jumbilee quarters jittery? If they claim popularity, they should be able to comfortably get the votes they already have, plus more during the Run Off. Hence ... and to borrow Miguna's cliche...they should say "Come, Run-Off, Come" Now if you say that you know the result, what does that suggest about the reason the results are not being exhaustively announced to the rest of us? |
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 7, 2013 1:57:31 GMT 3
Wow! Its unfortunate that most of the guys arguing here about who had how many votes actually do not have intimate access to Jubilee or CORD tallies respectively. Notwithstanding...we have a few, who know the exact numbers of each candindate...for example RR. I cite RR because i am also privy to this information... Listen...both CORD and Jubilee had their agents at all polling stations...hence each of them know how much each candidate attained So let us not make so much noise, yet we have not the real information about the numbers Let us wait for the analogue count to come to an end...then we can prove each other wrong Hint: Why are Jumbilee quarters jittery? If they claim popularity, they should be able to comfortably get the votes they already have, plus more during the Run Off. Hence ... and to borrow Miguna's cliche...they should say "Come, Run-Off, Come" So you have let the cat out of thee bag ,how ? By confirming that RR has intimate sources of CORD tallies, a few days ago prior to the election RR was cocksure of a CORDs first round win but today came out joking that he and his relatives had voted but made sure their votes were rejected as protest vote against ICC inductees UhuRuto and wanted IEBC to have their votes tallied to the final vote count which will affect the 50 +1 vote. You also hint by asking Jubilee if they claim popularity then they should be able to comfortably get the votes and add more during the Runoff. This is your first post about the election results and you prefer posting it in the "Rejected Votes Thread ". Evident that those privy to the "CORD tallies " are angling for a runnoff by making sure the rejected votes are factored in during the final tally and thus force a runoff . |
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 7, 2013 8:22:00 GMT 3
CORD/ODM will have to look for another excuse for the presidential elections to go for a runnoff
The rejected votes with the actual results have gone down from 5 % as reported in the provisional results to 0.5 %.
Biggest share of the Rejected votes are in Jubilee strongholds. If this is the trend the Kiss "Rejected votes tallying will lead to runnoff excuse "goodbye .
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Post by kamalet on Mar 7, 2013 9:49:32 GMT 3
CORD/ODM will have to look for another excuse for the presidential elections to go for a runnoff The rejected votes with the actual results have gone down from 5 % as reported in the provisional results to 0.5 %. Biggest share of the Rejected votes are in Jubilee strongholds. If this is the trend the Kiss "Rejected votes tallying will lead to runnoff excuse "goodbye . Nowayhaha Kindly use the correct name of the coalition - CORD - as your reference to CORD/ODM easily reads like those TRUST things. On the funnier side, the joke yesterday was that CORD was in talks with Rejected Votes for a coalition for purposes of the run off. The new coalition was to be called Record Alliance! ;D ;D |
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Post by gemagema on Mar 7, 2013 10:42:35 GMT 3
Simply get to your TV now and listen to what Raila and Kalonzo have to say.....
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Post by kamalet on Mar 7, 2013 11:23:07 GMT 3
Simply get to your TV now and listen to what Raila and Kalonzo have to say..... I hear that media houses in Kenya have declined to carry the press conference live and will only report it after it is over. |
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