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Post by abdulmote on Mar 7, 2013 19:43:28 GMT 3
As I write this, the presidential election votes are still being counted and nowhere near the fifty percent mark of the total votes cast have been counted yet. In other words, we are no where near knowing who is going to win this election or whether round two is inevitable.
It is obvious from what any can observe so far that Uhuruto are enjoying a significant support from Kenyans, irrespective of whether they win or not. It also does not escape our minds that the two are still waiting for their trial not in a so distant future at the ICC.
Addressing the issue of ICC trial, some of us have already made our conclusion that it is unlikely that the two will attend the trial if they win. Raila on the other hand has pledged to bring the trials "back home" should he win. But that is besides the point.
Uhuru and Ruto belonged to two opposing sides when the PEV took place. Indeed, it is the roles that the two individually played inn their respective divide which led them to find themselves where they are today. Many people lost their lives and thousands of families and their lively hood destroyed. The pain of those thousands affected can still be felt by the same.
Remarkably it may seem, significant number of Kenyans have forgiven the two and as I write this, the expression is clear through the votes currently being counted that they have forgiven them. Again to reiterate, the two once belonged to the two warring sides.
Whilst much had been said, expressing desire to have the two behind the Hague bars and the ICC trial to serve as a deterrent to possible similar culture of impunity, I do not think that such a remedy will provide a necessary healing to our nation as a whole and so allow our country to move ahead at a desirable pace of reform and head towards desirable status of civilisation.
Now then, just as a matter of initiating debate in this respect, do you think Uhuru and Ruto should be forgiven by all Kenyans and focus moved towards moving on whether they win or not? If so, how are we as Kenyans supposed to pay attention to the suffering that tens of thousands are going through as a result of the regrettable actions of the two and finally, how should we propose to conclude this issue once and for all?
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 7, 2013 19:52:41 GMT 3
My friend, what exactly do you mean by forgive? What do you want them to be forgiven from, ICC? Winning election? or what? I am lost?
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Post by mank on Mar 7, 2013 19:56:21 GMT 3
Abdulmote,
Perhaps the right question is whether the two should be judged by a jury of Kenyans. Personally I am convinced that the Kenyans who voted for them did so mostly in protest of the ICC case.
"Forgive" is not even the term many who voted for them might use. For them its a question of guilt and a sense that the ICC undertaking has largely been about tethering a few individuals for sacrifice rather than pursuing the truth.
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Post by Mobimba on Mar 7, 2013 21:37:11 GMT 3
Much as I would extremely love and cherish to see Uhuru and Ruto rot away in a foreign jail, it's clear that 50+1% of Kenyans prefer they don’t. The minority of Kenyans, no matter how disgusted by the reality of events, must do the honorable thing i.e. join the majority in wholeheartedly forgiving the two. For the nation, it's the only way forward.
Now, when it comes to justice for the victims who are either dead or scarred for life, let's accept that 'justice' as sought at the ICC is a foreign concept. The idea of jailing criminal but productive youthful people for 30 to 60 years is not African. Here, we hold meetings, pray, forgive and move on. If your neighbor repeatedly rapes and impregnates your daughter but later agrees to marry her, where's the beef? Uhuru and Ruto were commanders of heinous crimes in the RV but they have now brought peace to the RV, where's the beef? They should be commended, not jailed. Furthermore, pre-colonial Africa had no jails. Matters were solved through dialogue, understanding, forgiveness and maybe a fine of two goats here or there; which Uhuru and Ruto have already done with zeal and success in the RV. African solutions to African problems; that's what I say.
And since we must now, as a nation, forgiven them, what business do they have at the ICC? In the eyes of the majority of sovereign Kenyans, Uhuru and Ruto are king and prince of peace. In Kenya, they have soared to the high table of good moral and impeccable repute. In their new roles, they are only accountable to Kenyans and do not have to answer to anyone else, especially weirdo looking judges from far flung foreign countries.
At the end of the day, if we are to survive 'consequences' from the West, we must unite behind our presidency.
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Post by mank on Mar 7, 2013 21:55:53 GMT 3
... If your neighbor repeatedly rapes and impregnates your daughter but later agrees to marry her, where's the beef? ...
And since we must now, as a nation, forgiven them, what business do they have at the ICC? .......... Very controversial means of arguing for what I think time will deliver. The idea that there is no beef if someone repeatedly rapes and impregrates your daughter but then decides to marry her is highly offensive, but I am unable to argue that it is not factual in our customs! What a shame! I believe the guys will soon go free of the ICC case - not on forgiveness, but on the merits of the case. I think O made too much of the imagined story of an opportunist, and overpromised wishful Kenyans, and apparently all the while probably not trusting the information himself. |
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Post by cheshirecat on Mar 7, 2013 22:46:23 GMT 3
As I write this, the presidential election votes are still being counted and nowhere near the fifty percent mark of the total votes cast have been counted yet. In other words, we are no where near knowing who is going to win this election or whether round two is inevitable. It is obvious from what any can observe so far that Uhuruto are enjoying a significant support from Kenyans, irrespective of whether they win or not. It also does not escape our minds that the two are still waiting for their trial not in a so distant future at the ICC. Addressing the issue of ICC trial, some of us have already made our conclusion that it is unlikely that the two will attend the trial if they win. Raila on the other hand has pledged to bring the trials "back home" should he win. But that is besides the point. Uhuru and Ruto belonged to two opposing sides when the PEV took place. Indeed, it is the roles that the two individually played inn their respective divide which led them to find themselves where they are today. Many people lost their lives and thousands of families and their lively hood destroyed. The pain of those thousands affected can still be felt by the same. Remarkably it may seem, significant number of Kenyans have forgiven the two and as I write this, the expression is clear through the votes currently being counted that they have forgiven them. Again to reiterate, the two once belonged to the two warring sides. Whilst much had been said, expressing desire to have the two behind the Hague bars and the ICC trial to serve as a deterrent to possible similar culture of impunity, I do not think that such a remedy will provide a necessary healing to our nation as a whole and so allow our country to move ahead at a desirable pace of reform and head towards desirable status of civilisation. Now then, just as a matter of initiating debate in this respect, do you think Uhuru and Ruto should be forgiven by all Kenyans and focus moved towards moving on whether they win or not? If so, how are we as Kenyans supposed to pay attention to the suffering that tens of thousands are going through as a result of the regrettable actions of the two and finally, how should we propose to conclude this issue once and for all? in one of my foreign trips, a host, who perhaps had taken too much wine to remember to be politically correct told me over dinner that the difference between the first world and the third world is the value each society places on human life. As we spoke, a trailer had crashed into a small car on the motorway killing the occupants of the small car instantly. it was headline pages in all the evening dailies. Here of course (where my host had also spent a considerable amount of time) unless the death toll is above 10, it has no chance of making it to the papers and even then, it will probably be buried somewhere in page 6 between what Bwafoli said in a bull fighting ceremony. 1500 kenyans died during PEV. they did not commit suicide, someone plotted to kill them. Not to say that the duo is guilty but currently they are the suspects on trial. For the sanctity of human life, it would be crazy to 'forgive' them. In any country apart from this cesspool we call Africa, anyone even suspected of being involved in the killing and rape of 1500 people would be ostracized to the 7th generation. Thats what we need, to percolate through to matatu drivers, pharmacists, factory owners, doctors, nurses. there is nothing more important than human life and if you take one, just one, let alone 1500, your life will alter in ways you cant even begin to imagine. if we however decide to forgive them, then lets also go to Kamiti and 'forgive' all the murderers, robbers and rapists in their too. |
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Post by Mobimba on Mar 7, 2013 23:28:46 GMT 3
As I write this, the presidential election votes are still being counted and nowhere near the fifty percent mark of the total votes cast have been counted yet. In other words, we are no where near knowing who is going to win this election or whether round two is inevitable. It is obvious from what any can observe so far that Uhuruto are enjoying a significant support from Kenyans, irrespective of whether they win or not. It also does not escape our minds that the two are still waiting for their trial not in a so distant future at the ICC. Addressing the issue of ICC trial, some of us have already made our conclusion that it is unlikely that the two will attend the trial if they win. Raila on the other hand has pledged to bring the trials "back home" should he win. But that is besides the point. Uhuru and Ruto belonged to two opposing sides when the PEV took place. Indeed, it is the roles that the two individually played inn their respective divide which led them to find themselves where they are today. Many people lost their lives and thousands of families and their lively hood destroyed. The pain of those thousands affected can still be felt by the same. Remarkably it may seem, significant number of Kenyans have forgiven the two and as I write this, the expression is clear through the votes currently being counted that they have forgiven them. Again to reiterate, the two once belonged to the two warring sides. Whilst much had been said, expressing desire to have the two behind the Hague bars and the ICC trial to serve as a deterrent to possible similar culture of impunity, I do not think that such a remedy will provide a necessary healing to our nation as a whole and so allow our country to move ahead at a desirable pace of reform and head towards desirable status of civilisation. Now then, just as a matter of initiating debate in this respect, do you think Uhuru and Ruto should be forgiven by all Kenyans and focus moved towards moving on whether they win or not? If so, how are we as Kenyans supposed to pay attention to the suffering that tens of thousands are going through as a result of the regrettable actions of the two and finally, how should we propose to conclude this issue once and for all? in one of my foreign trips, a host, who perhaps had taken too much wine to remember to be politically correct told me over dinner that the difference between the first world and the third world is the value each society places on human life. As we spoke, a trailer had crashed into a small car on the motorway killing the occupants of the small car instantly. it was headline pages in all the evening dailies. Here of course (where my host had also spent a considerable amount of time) unless the death toll is above 10, it has no chance of making it to the papers and even then, it will probably be buried somewhere in page 6 between what Bwafoli said in a bull fighting ceremony. 1500 kenyans died during PEV. they did not commit suicide, someone plotted to kill them. Not to say that the duo is guilty but currently they are the suspects on trial. For the sanctity of human life, it would be crazy to 'forgive' them. In any country apart from this cesspool we call Africa, anyone even suspected of being involved in the killing and rape of 1500 people would be ostracized to the 7th generation. Thats what we need, to percolate through to matatu drivers, pharmacists, factory owners, doctors, nurses. there is nothing more important than human life and if you take one, just one, let alone 1500, your life will alter in ways you cant even begin to imagine. if we however decide to forgive them, then lets also go to Kamiti and 'forgive' all the murderers, robbers and rapists in their too. Chesirecat-- Your host may have been drunk but he was truthful. A Kenyan life is of much less value than say an American life. The only lives of less value than ours are probably the Darfuris of Sudan. As to the guilt of Uhuru and Ruto, it doesn’t matter any more. In any case, more than 50+1% of Kenyans believe the ICC accusations are a total fabrication. Yaani, Ocampo came to Kenya, looked up Waki and a few human rights crusaders, bought a six pack of tusker and looked for a mango tree with the best shade; under which they sat and wrote this fantastic fictional novel that is now being discussed at the ICC. That is what the majority of Kenyans believe. |
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Post by mank on Mar 7, 2013 23:36:44 GMT 3
Chesirecat-- Your host may have been drunk but he was truthful. A Kenyan life is of much less value than say an American life. The only lives of less value than ours are probably the Darfuris of Sudan.
As to the guilt of Uhuru and Ruto, it doesn’t matter any more. In any case, more than 50+1% of Kenyans believe the ICC accusations are a total fabrication.
Yaani, Ocampo came to Kenya, looked up Waki and a few human rights crusaders, bought a six pack of tusker and looked for a mango tree with the best shade; under which they sat and wrote this fantastic fictional novel that is now being discussed at the ICC. That is what the majority of Kenyans believe.I don't know about a six pack and a mango tree but they could have been there. What you left of importance is one opportunist who is no longer helpful to the OTP - the fantasy revolves around his fertile lies! |
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 7, 2013 23:54:58 GMT 3
As I write this, the presidential election votes are still being counted and nowhere near the fifty percent mark of the total votes cast have been counted yet. In other words, we are no where near knowing who is going to win this election or whether round two is inevitable. It is obvious from what any can observe so far that Uhuruto are enjoying a significant support from Kenyans, irrespective of whether they win or not. It also does not escape our minds that the two are still waiting for their trial not in a so distant future at the ICC. Addressing the issue of ICC trial, some of us have already made our conclusion that it is unlikely that the two will attend the trial if they win. Raila on the other hand has pledged to bring the trials "back home" should he win. But that is besides the point. Uhuru and Ruto belonged to two opposing sides when the PEV took place. Indeed, it is the roles that the two individually played inn their respective divide which led them to find themselves where they are today. Many people lost their lives and thousands of families and their lively hood destroyed. The pain of those thousands affected can still be felt by the same. Remarkably it may seem, significant number of Kenyans have forgiven the two and as I write this, the expression is clear through the votes currently being counted that they have forgiven them. Again to reiterate, the two once belonged to the two warring sides. Whilst much had been said, expressing desire to have the two behind the Hague bars and the ICC trial to serve as a deterrent to possible similar culture of impunity, I do not think that such a remedy will provide a necessary healing to our nation as a whole and so allow our country to move ahead at a desirable pace of reform and head towards desirable status of civilisation. Now then, just as a matter of initiating debate in this respect, do you think Uhuru and Ruto should be forgiven by all Kenyans and focus moved towards moving on whether they win or not? If so, how are we as Kenyans supposed to pay attention to the suffering that tens of thousands are going through as a result of the regrettable actions of the two and finally, how should we propose to conclude this issue once and for all? Abdulmote , Did it take an election to realize that we should forgive some people for being wrongly accused as the people bearing the greatest "criminal " responsibility for the post election violence witnessed in 2007-2008? As an adherent reader of political news you would know that Uhuru was Rutos political leader in KANU up-to less than three months to the General elections and the genesis of post election violence and with Ruto being accused of organizing and planning prior the P.E.V. then logically it implies that Uhuru either had knowledge or was involved in that planning. Most Kenyans either believe or are privy of information that Uhuru & Ruto are not liable for actions which led to the Post election Violence . Ocampo did not do any investigations and relied on reports based on half-truths , rumours and lies to convict uhuru and Ruto and consequently had Raila walking scot-free where as he was the criminal who should be facing ICC judges now as we speak. You clearly heard Muite during the first debate telling Raila in his face he is guilty as accused for the butchering of Kenyans against each other. Raila is the chief perpetrator of the Post election violence and with voting for Uhuru and Ruto in the just concluded elections this is a clear message to the ICC and the whole world that it does not understand the local issues which led to the P.E.V. and it is indeed the politicians led by Raila who incited the Kenyans to go at each other with the utterances and political strategy which was divisive that eventually resulted to Kenyans mudering each other and displacing each other from their respective homes . What the communities affected by the P.E.V. are saying in a nutshell is Raila is the one who should be at ICC and not Uhuru and Ruto thus contrary to your suggestion it should be Raila asking for forgiveness from Kenyans. |
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Post by mank on Mar 8, 2013 0:20:29 GMT 3
Abdulmote , Did it take an election to realize that we should forgive some people for being wrongly accused as the people bearing the greatest "criminal " responsibility for the post election violence witnessed in 2007-2008? As an adherent reader of political news you would know that Uhuru was Rutos political leader in KANU up-to less than three months to the General elections and the genesis of post election violence and with Ruto being accused of organizing and planning prior the P.E.V. then logically it implies that Uhuru either had knowledge or was involved in that planning. Most Kenyans either believe or are privy of information that Uhuru & Ruto are not liable for actions which led to the Post election Violence . Ocampo did not do any investigations and relied on reports based on half-truths , rumours and lies to convict uhuru and Ruto and consequently had Raila walking scot-free where as he was the criminal who should be facing ICC judges now as we speak. You clearly heard Muite during the first debate telling Raila in his face he is guilty as accused for the butchering of Kenyans against each other. Raila is the chief perpetrator of the Post election violence and with voting for Uhuru and Ruto in the just concluded elections this is a clear message to the ICC and the whole world that it does not understand the local issues which led to the P.E.V. and it is indeed the politicians led by Raila who incited the Kenyans to go at each other with the utterances and political strategy which was divisive that eventually resulted to Kenyans mudering each other and displacing each other from their respective homes . What the communities affected by the P.E.V. are saying in a nutshell is Raila is the one who should be at ICC and not Uhuru and Ruto thus contrary to your suggestion it should be Raila asking for forgiveness from Kenyans. oh boy ... the dogs are (were) sleeping, not dead! |
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Post by abdulmote on Mar 8, 2013 0:48:35 GMT 3
noway,
I don't think they were "wrongly accused", but that I will try to explain some other time. In my opinion, Raila and indeed Kibaki played their respective roles towards the PEV, be it differently to the Occampo Four. Again, that is another debate for another thread if it has not been discussed yet.
In the meantime, all I am asking is for the supporters of the two to try and have some empathy for the other side and especially the victims, and for the other side to consider the subject debate if it has any merit forward.
Is that too much to ask?
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Post by denno on Mar 8, 2013 0:54:09 GMT 3
@ Lincoln its 50% +1 not 51%
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Post by Mobimba on Mar 8, 2013 0:57:11 GMT 3
@ Lincoln its 50% +1 not 51% Are you wildly claiming that 51% + 1 is different from 51% + 1%. Oh, blimey! |
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Post by mank on Mar 8, 2013 1:04:29 GMT 3
noway,
I don't think they were "wrongly accused", but that I will try to explain some other time. In my opinion, Raila and indeed Kibaki played their respective roles towards the PEV, be it differently to the Occampo Four. Again, that is another debate for another thread if it has not been discussed yet.
In the meantime, all I am asking is for the supporters of the two to try and have some empathy for the other side and especially the victims, and for the other side to consider the subject debate if it has any merit forward.
Is that too much to ask?
Abdulmote, Its always possible to lose an important issue by phrasing it incorrectly. For example I recall one time in campus when we had gathered with management to discuss an extensive water crisis, but people phrased our problem as "we want hot water". ... soon the issue became about the type of heaters we had. In this case, it is difficult to focus on the real issue (namely the victims and their situation) when the immediate question is whether some folks should go to the Hague. .. it all becomes an issue about those folks and whether their situation is just. So I do not think your suggestion that empathy toward victims lacks in some quarters is justified. |
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Post by abdulmote on Mar 8, 2013 1:28:47 GMT 3
Mank,
The fact that English language is not our mother tongue, it is highly conceivable that our embedded prejudice may lead us to understand some English phrases or statements in our own individual prejudiced ways. That said, with the benefit of hindsight, I did not notice within my intro that perhaps I could have presented it differently but subsequently decided not to.
Sometimes it can also be difficult to express clearly what one may have actually intended to and similarly, readers can end up with their own perception, which miles away from the author's intended expression.
But without worrying too much about the language herein, I believe that those with an open mind can figure out what I am trying to stimulate and will keen to see any reaction from any line of thoughts, in whatever way, on this important subject.
I will leave it to Jukwaaists to indulge me.
Mank, thanks for your concern and do appreciate your views. Please also do feel free to expound on the header if appropriate.
P.S: I am still waiting for our president to be declared!
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Post by mank on Mar 8, 2013 1:48:38 GMT 3
Abdulmote,
I need to clarify that I was not accusing you of phrasing anything incorrectly. In that context I was referring to the Hague issue as the issue that is phrased anytime we are discussing Uhuru, Ruto, etc in context of the PEV. So I was saying that once the immediate subject is this Hague issue, then it is not the likely subject under which to see people expressing empathy for victims of PEV, even while people have that empathy.
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 8, 2013 4:30:09 GMT 3
noway, I don't think they were "wrongly accused", but that I will try to explain some other time. In my opinion, Raila and indeed Kibaki played their respective roles towards the PEV, be it differently to the Occampo Four. Again, that is another debate for another thread if it has not been discussed yet. In the meantime, all I am asking is for the supporters of the two to try and have some empathy for the other side and especially the victims, and for the other side to consider the subject debate if it has any merit forward. Is that too much to ask? Abdulmote , First thing first Uhuru and Ruto are inductees and have not been condemned as guilty by the ICC court so wouldnt it be prudent first to wait for the case proceedings and outcome before asking Kenyans to forgive them? Secondly do you believe or according to your opinion were Ocampos investigations thorough with evidence beyond reasonable doubt to convict Uhuru and Ruto ? |
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Post by kamalet on Mar 8, 2013 7:55:55 GMT 3
Abdulmote
Last night one of the TV stations had a feature on Eldoret town. It was a lot more bustling than Nairobi's Kirinyaga road yesterday. People of all communities were interviewed and all they wanted was the polls to end and they get along with their lives.
Compare that with the same period i.e. three days after the elections in 2007!
Whatever happens to the two at the ICC, I can only say that what I saw in Eldoret last night, I owe it to the two gentlemen!
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