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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 6, 2015 0:45:57 GMT 3
UPDATED WITH RELATED LINKS AND SOURCES. PRESS REFRESH/RELOAD IF YOU HAD READ IT EARLIER:A Digital Essay posted online Sunday, April 5, 2015Why is Onyango Oloo writing once again on Al Shabaab? Since 2011 I have written extensively on the terror outfit and the attendant violent ramifications on the security situation in both Kenya and Somalia. Two major essays focused on the devastating effect of KDF’s quixotic misadventure of invading our conflict prone neighbor, but more crucially, the second one offered serious, well meant recommendations to our government of how to get out of the blood stained quagmire. So why am I penning another digital essay on Al Shabaab? Is Onyango Oloo a cyber peacock who loves showing off? Is Onyango Oloo a lazy bum with too much time on his hands? Is Onyango Oloo a typical loudmouth Jaluo who seizes on the flimsiest excuse to rail like Raila against Jubilee just because President Kenyatta happens to be a Mgikuyu? Is Onyango Oloo perhaps, clinically insane, most likely suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder? Or is Onyango Oloo simply an irritating idiot who should be henceforth blocked and /or shown the contempt card by being deliberately shunned and ignored? Any of the above? All of the above? Interesting hypotheses. While compelling in some quarters, unfortunately, the disappointing answer is: NONE OF THE ABOVE. Chuckle. My motivation is really quite simple. You do not have to be a post doctoral fellow in advanced nanotechnological applications in applied agronomics to fathom the genesis of this essay. I am simply expanding and expounding on a rhetorical tweet I broadcast an hour or two ago. That’s right. You see, earlier, I was checking my Gmail account which contains several folders one of which is labeled “Social” which alerts me about the goings on in Facebook, Google +, Twitter, Word Press, Tumblr and so on. When I clicked on this folder, I came across this tweet from Dr. Mutahi Ngunyi, the well known political scientist and canny electoral soothsayer: To which the prolific, often contentious blogger Robert Alai concurred: This exchange in turn propelled me to log out of Gmail and switch on Twitter to send the following tweet to both of them: I am glad my riposte/rejoinder/retort has since been retweeted by several friends online including the Zimbabwean Pan Africanist Brian Kagoro who used to work right here in Nairobi a few years ago. Robert Alai further retweeted a tweet by Githaiga Kennedy: Which has been further retweeted and/or favourited by folks like ZeroPoliticz, Moadow AJE, Mbiyu, Bernard Rono, Matthew Dove, Craig Dent, Frances Hesselbein, Princess Salma Leiny and other netizens of Twitterati. Which is all fine and dandy-gives me a swollen head and all that. BUT WHAT DID ONYANGO OLOO ACTUALLY MEAN? That is why I am keyboarding this latest digital essay. Dr. Anneli Botha is South African. She is a senior researcher at the Pretoria-based Institute of Security Studies. Some years ago she joined the South African Police Services’ Crime Intelligence Unit focusing on terrorism and religious extremism among other things. With a PhD from the University of the Free State, Dr. Botha’s specific areas of interest are counter terrorism strategies and the underlying causes of terrorism and radicalisation. She was in Nairobi sometime in September to present two papers she has co-authored at a well attended seminar hosted by ISS. I was among the many present. On page 13 of Radicalisation and al-Shabaab recruitment in Somalia ISS Paper 266 that she co-authored with Mahdi Abdile, a Somali national and Deputy Regional Representative for Eastern and South Africa with Finn Church Aid (FCA) we read: Dr.Botha and her team also interviewed 95 individuals connected with Al Shabaab and 46 relatives of people who joined Al Shabaab- all of them Kenyans. These interviews formed the basis of the second ISS paper titled Radicalisation in Kenya: Recruitment to al-Shabaab and the Mombasa Republican Council. We learn from this document: -Excerpts from Radicalisation in Kenya: Recruitment to al-Shabaab and the Mombasa Republican Council, pp. 14-20. In light of the Jubilee regime’s response to the Garissa tragedy with President Uhuru Kenyatta regurgitating the testosterone charged machismo rah rah jingoistic chest thumping we heard after Mpeketoni and Westgate, perhaps it would be sobering for other Kenyan Rambo wannabes and American Sniper groupies on Twitter and Facebook to ponder deeply some of the concluding remarks of Dr. Anneli Botha in wrapping up her study:
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 6, 2015 14:12:22 GMT 3
In light of the Jubilee regime’s response to the Garissa tragedy with President Uhuru Kenyatta regurgitating the testosterone charged machismo rah rah jingoistic chest thumping we heard after Mpeketoni and Westgate, perhaps it would be sobering for other Kenyan Rambo wannabes and American Sniper groupies on Twitter and Facebook to ponder deeply some of the concluding remarks of Dr. Anneli Botha in wrapping up her study: On this, I recieved an interesting homework from an e-mail friend of mine from across the gulf, Uyoma. He says, '''Omera Jachula,Awinjo un gun-ho, no holes barred in the rage against the terrorists. I am sure you will enjoy the following literary joke. And then put our star columnist in perspective. Anyway, a famous tale is told by famous Greek poets. Every generation harvesting their oral thrill. General Achilles the son of Peleus is still in grief, unspeakable grief, though in single-combat he has slaughtered Hector, the champion of Troy who slew Patroklos, the General's key lieutenant and rumoured soulmate in every sense. He proceeds to tie the body of Hector to his swift horse-drawn chariot. A much painted scene in art for the past 2000 years. Achilles dragging the body of Hector THE WRATH OF ACHILLEUS (I think this is from the poet Homer) ''' This friend of mine from Odindo Opiata's Uyoma, half an eyeshot from Mfangano (strait), told me he is worried the Garissa campus massacre is herding us into suchlike pathological rage of grief, and he put it to me to ponder the emotional significance of this gory ''pick-up'' episode. (According to him, the identification of suicide-belt mutilated, bullet-ridden half torsos is best left to DNA warriors in laboratories away from public glare, the slow scientific stuff they call forensics. Therefore the menacing public display ---ostensibly for identification----- in Garissa plays another game.) AFTERMATH: The bodies of the Garissa University College raiders are driven into a school compound on Saturday for public display and identification. - See more at: www.the-star.co.ke/news/duale-orders-north-eastern-parents-give-info-al-shabaab-children-within-7-days#sthash.OG5jJFNi.dpufhere is a hint of the pathology. remember the Mpeketoni punchline about local networks allied to the opposition.
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Post by b6k on Apr 6, 2015 15:21:13 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, the Hector of Troy analogy is quite apt...the first of a long line of abuse of the dead that we saw meted out to US forces when their Blackhawks were downed. Whether it will have the desired effect of acting as a deterrent to locals in NEP or will simply add fuel to the fire of historical injustices, real or imagined, remains to be seen. Personally I see it as a slippery slope that may have unintended repercussions...
OO, I beg to differ with you. Somalis have always invaded KE from days immemorial be it shopping for slaves to be sold in Arab lands or just for pure sport. They hit us before we invaded Somalia in 2011 and will continue to do so even after we leave. What we should fight for, if we don't have a choice but to remain in AMISOM, is at the very least DEMAND the right to manage the Somali sectors that touch on our borders.
The most pertinent question is what would motivate the son of chief, an officer of state, who was a recent graduate of the University of Nairobi, department of Law no less, to drop his comfortable life and get the idea of going to Syria to join ISIL, and when that failed, decided to join Al Shabaab or Al Hijra or whatever demented school of pseudo-Islamic militant thought he fell for? His father had "disowned" him a year before his death. Did he report anything he knew of his son's attachment to Islamic fundamentalism?
We don't need a wall to keep Somalis out, we need to comprehend what turns otherwise normal Kenyan young men to fall for claptrap pseudo-Islamic ideals that don't belong in the 21st century.
Apparently the terrorists stayed in the hotel owned by a prominent Garissa politician. What happened to the collation of check-in information from hotels on a daily basis? These guys were seen on campus mixing with students days before the attack prompting the school administration to partially shut down some operations. What happened to Kamale's spooks on the ground? Don't they liaise with institutions or the community in general?
Ok there you have it, OO. B6k's neck served on the guillotine for the expected chop for telling it as it is...
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Post by kamalet on Apr 6, 2015 15:30:20 GMT 3
......at least the previous excuse of marginalised and unemployed youths being drawn into the allure of terrorism is bursted by the discovery of some very well educated persons of university college stature being recruited.
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Post by abdulmote on Apr 6, 2015 15:54:38 GMT 3
Kamale, There you have a misconstrued concept, which I think needs clarification: amongst Muslim 'brethren', one's status may not necessarily and absolutely deter the same from 'sacrificing' their being for some others. To such it can be an act of 'charity' for their vulnerable brothers and sisters. It is just like ordinary folks sacrificing for their nation, in the name of patriotism, when they may as well be of high status, a la Uhuru and Raila
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 6, 2015 21:19:37 GMT 3
The most pertinent question is what would motivate the son of chief, an officer of state, who was a recent graduate of the University of Nairobi, department of Law no less, to drop his comfortable life and get the idea of going to Syria to join ISIL, and when that failed, decided to join Al Shabaab or Al Hijra or whatever demented school of pseudo-Islamic militant thought he fell for? His father had "disowned" him a year before his death. Did he report anything he knew of his son's attachment to Islamic fundamentalism? We don't need a wall to keep Somalis out, we need to comprehend what turns otherwise normal Kenyan young men to fall for claptrap pseudo-Islamic ideals that don't belong in the 21st century. Apparently the terrorists stayed in the hotel owned by a prominent Garissa politician. What happened to the collation of check-in information from hotels on a daily basis? These guys were seen on campus mixing with students days before the attack prompting the school administration to partially shut down some operations. What happened to Kamale's spooks on the ground? Don't they liaise with institutions or the community in general? Ok there you have it, OO. B6k's neck served on the guillotine for the expected chop for telling it as it is... I don't think it helps to describe things as "claptrap pseudo-Islamic ideals"; and part of the "comprehending" that, as you rightly note, is required should involve doing away with such labels. To my mind---and this is not intended to be a "justification" of any sort---given the long historical marginalization of people in the former NEP and the Coast, things like the Wagalla massacre, ... the wonder has to be that people in those areas have been "quiet" for so long. (Had I been a native of Wagalla at the time, I would have seriously considered taking up arms against the state.) I have noted you comment on "Islamic fundamentalism". Over the weekend, I had (in relation to this Kenyan attack) a discussion on this subject. At about the same time, jakaswanga brought up Zbigniew Brzezinski, a fellow who is way way more than just a retired US civil servant. He did his own bit in stirring up so-called Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, and he remains unapologetic about it: Le Nouvel Observateur: And also, don't you regret having helped future terrorists, having given them weapons and advice?
Zbigniew Brzezinski: What is most important for world history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? Some agitated Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?dgibbs.faculty.arizona.edu/brzezinski_interviewBrzezinski does not buy the idea that "Islamic fundamentalism" represents to the world the danger that is claimed, and in fact your comment on "claptrap pseudo-Islamic ideals" brings to mind something else he said in the same interview (bold font below): Le Nouvel Observateur: "Some agitated Moslems?" But it has been said time and time again: today Islamic fundamentalism represents a world-wide threat...
Zbigniew Brzezinski: Rubbish! It's said that the West has a global policy regarding Islam. That's hogwash: there is no global Islam. Let's look at Islam in a rational and not a demagogic or emotional way.Countries like Kenya have bought into this idea (largely US-driven idea) that "Islamic fundamentalism" threatens the world and that they are helping in fighting the "good fight" to save Planet Earth. Brzezinski thinking has largely been that such notions are, of themselves, nonsensical and will ultimately lead nowhere; he would laugh at Uhuru's recent statement about an "existential threat". His view is that the "proper" thing to do is to control the violence and manipulate it to serve US interests and (implicitly) that in doing so some countries will have to serve as pawns on his chessboard of global domination. He probably doesn't mind that countries like Kenya will swallow the nonsense---indeed it probably "helps"---but, I imagine, he worries that many in the West who should know better have bought also the line. As far as Kenya goes, I doubt that it can ever win the "war" against Al Shabab (whether local or Somali-based). Apart from the obvious cultural and historical reasons that ensures them support in some places, they have no doubt also noted the difficulties that GoK has had in getting 20 or so guys from Nairobi to join a fight against 4 people. GoK's past performance suggests that one should not expect any significant changes soon. In fact GoK has gone the other way and decided that the "best" people for the job are some corrupt would-be coppers whose priority will most likely be recouping their "investment". Bizarre. To my mind, Kenya would be better off working to ensure that the people in the former NEP and the Coast get a better and more inclusive deal and become less inclined to support what Brzezinski would call "agitated Moslems". (Of course, he does not mind agitating Muslims if they are in the sort of places where such agitation would help "the greater good", as he sees it.) A starting point for Kenya would be to ask:" When and why did Al Shabaab first get involved in Kenya?" This article is a quick look at that particular bit of history: www.aljazeera.com/blogs/africa/2015/04/al-shabab-gained-foothold-kenya-150405125039543.htmlKenya could then look at what is has done to change the situation, where it has done right, where it has done things wrong, ... , learn from all that, and resolve to work on long-lasting positive changes. (The TJRC report is still around, if anyone cares for it.) What will not do is the sort of mindless "tough" talk that is coming from Uhuru etc. If all it took was tough talk, Nigeria, for example, would not be where it is today. Kamale states that: This is a very simple-minded and dangerous view. It is simple-minded because it assumes that people can feel on only those matters that directly affect them but not of others that they see as closely related to them, which, by the way, it is especially ironic in a country that has taken " our people!" to "another level". History will show that some individuals have wrought great changes in history by rejecting the "nice and comfortable" life they could have had at the "oppressor's" offer and instead chosen the path of liberation and change. (NOTE: This implies no particular claim regarding the young man in question.) And it is dangerous because it can blind people to the need to look at the root causes and make the necessary changes. A few people from the NEP get into university, maybe graduate, and then go on to "the good life" in Capitalist Nairobi. So what? How does that change the situation for most of those in the NEP?
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Post by kamalet on Apr 7, 2015 8:59:40 GMT 3
Abdulmote
I beg to differ! I have spoken to many muslim friends of mine and they are unanimous that they do not agree with the ideology of murder in the name of Allah. I highly doubt you subscribe to the ideology of the al Shabaab so I do not understand your analogy of "brethren". We are talking about taking human life and not the alms most muslims are famous for giving!
As for the former Kenyan still interested in Kenya....Moonki; he completely misses the context of my one liner!! It is a known fact that we were told by the likes of Hassan Omar that the rot cause of the radicalisation of youths getting into terror activities at the coast was due to poverty and unemployment! They called on the government to make employment available for the youths and they will not get radicalised!!
It is quite obvious that religious radicalisation has nothing to do with being poor, illiterate, idle and jobless. Al qaeda, ISIS and now Al shabaab seems to target even the most educated into their ranks! So yes it is possible to for Jomo Jnr and Raila Jnr to be radicalised notwithstanding their 'class'.
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Post by abdulmote on Apr 7, 2015 12:23:20 GMT 3
Ndugu Kamale,
It is possible that you misunderstood my reference of the word 'brethren' up there. With regards to the concept as explained, I stand by what was stated. But with regards to killing the innocent, I agree with what you have been advised by your Muslim friends. The holy Qur'an is very clear about such issues but for the distorted interpretation amongst some evil minds!
Human ego is the most evil attribute any creature could ever possess on planet earth.
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Post by b6k on Apr 7, 2015 12:46:05 GMT 3
Otishotish, indeed one can call the Al Shabaab agenda claptrap pseudo-Islamic ideals because they're just that. They're claptrap because they are nonsensical to modern way of thought that places high value on the right to life. Pseudo-Islamic because they are fake yet pitch to medieval "defenders of the faith" mentality of a bygone era that really ought to remain in history books as a curiosity of the human condition before enlightenment. Islam is a religion of peace, is it not?
Yes you may argue that KE has a history of relying on barbarism to make a point but it's also not hard to see that independence may have actually been delayed by taking the "mass action" route than they way of Ghandi. Which brings me to my point. Not too long ago the Somali government which KE has been instrumental in ensuring it has some semblance of power took Kenya to court on a boundary issue off our respective coastlines. This is what civilized people do. They can picket, call the BBC and Al Jazeera to cover their sob story, and with time, the ever liberal international community will hear their cry. Resorting to murder in the long run leads to isolation as the remedy to any cancer is to choke it and cut it off.
Now as to these "historical injustices" the truth is many are not there without reason. The British were well aware that they gave the Northern Frontier District the short end of the stick. Invariably this was due to geographic conditions and the lifestyle choice of the people therein.
In the early 60's the House of Lords had a debate on whether KE should be allowed to retain the former NEP or allow it to go to join the Greater Somalia. Here is what the Earl of Huntingdon had to say:
"I suggest that if the Government really agree to put the Somalis under the Kenya Administration we shall be leaving a terrible legacy to Kenya. There will be dragons' teeth that will rise up and produce warriors against the Kenya Government. It will put that Government in an impossible position. They almost certainly will not be able to subdue this very proud, gallant people. If they did, it would lead to their slaughter on a gigantic scale. Some people might think that Her Majesty's Government take the rather cynical view: "After all, we shall be out of it. The Africans have asked for this; let them have it and see what happens." I think, and hope, that that is not the view, but in any case until independence we are responsible, and if we stir up this wild, warlike people there will be infinite trouble. Already there has been a report in The Times of April 1 of trouble in Somalia in this district, in which a policeman was killed. That is probably only the beginning if we persist in what seems to them to be a betrayal of their rights and interests and the worst kind of provocation."
...& later in the same debate....
"It is difficult to appreciate why Mr. Kenyatta and the other politicians in Kenya are so keen to have this province, because economically it is absolutely valueless. We have heard several times to-day that it consists of 30 per cent. of the territory, but it is just desert country. One has a very different situation in the Congo in relation to the small breakaway province of Katanga. Katanga is the richest province and the whole wealth of the Congo lies there; without it it would be difficult, if not impossible, for a Congolese Government to manage at all. It is strange, in a way, that the British Government sympathise with Katanga on the one side, and yet sympathise with the Kenya Government against the unfortunate Somalis on the other. It does not seem quite to carry out a consistent principle. In fact, the only reason these politicians of Kenya can want Somaliland is purely, as has been said, for prestige, and wanting to make a big show with this extra territory. I appreciate that Her Majesty's Government may think that it may make 627 negotiations easier if they hand over these Somalis and that we shall get some sort of arrangement in Kenya, but I do not think it will make it much better, and there are too many dangers on the other side."
...in conclusion he said...
"However, in any case, my Lords, I cannot believe that this bargain of handing over these Somalis will really affect these settlers or help them out. That is a question which will have to be decided historically. It will have to be worked out between the new Government of Kenya and the people living there. I hope that friendship will develop, and that a new kind of feeling will arise in Africa when she is free. But, my Lords, I do suggest that, even for those considerations of peace or of appeasement, we cannot hand over these unfortunate and proud people, the Somalis, to be under a Government they so much dislike."
His colleague the Marquees of Landsdowne who was the Minister of State for Colonial Affairs informed the Lord's that:
"A further argument is that for various reasons the Northern Frontier District has always been administered differently from the rest of Kenya. This, of course, has been necessarily imposed by nature and geography, and for this reason the Somalis have never really been able to experience the benefits of being part of Kenya, and the Africans, for their part, have never been in a position to demonstrate this to them. African Ministers have gone to great lengths in the agreed Constitution to make provision to let the different parts of Kenya run their own affairs. As my right honourable friend has said, we have thought it only fair to give the Kenya Africans an opportunity to demonstrate their goodwill towards the inhabitants of the Somali districts—as, indeed, elsewhere in Kenya."
The Earl of Lytton for his part contributed the interesting factoid that:
"Why do Kenya politicians, the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, asked, want this barren country? True, it is half the land; 635 but it is a tremendous liability. In ale other part of the country there are 4,080 primary schools; in this part there are eight. Welfare has not started. The Negroes will be the slaves of the non-Negroes if they assume responsibility in this part, as they have been for the best part of 70 centuries. They will perpetuate their slavery, working to provide welfare for people in the desert, who will demand it as a right."
So whereas there's a contemporary push to show that "historical injustices" are a post independence phenomenon the truth of the matter is they go way further back than that. The mzungu you hold so dear already foresaw that he was leaving KE with a hornets nest, which was happily accepted by Jomo, at the time. We fought to keep the arid land, we better be prepared for the tears we shed in order to keep it in the fold.
We are enjoying the fruits of the dragon's teeth that the Earl of Huntingdon prophesied over 50 years ago from within and from without. That is why Aden Duale can dare joke about Al Shabaab taking their bombs to Machakos and not Eastleigh in a public forum, and get away with it without censure.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 7, 2015 15:19:51 GMT 3
OO, I beg to differ with you. Somalis have always invaded KE from days immemorial be it shopping for slaves to be sold in Arab lands or just for pure sport. They hit us before we invaded Somalia in 2011 and will continue to do so even after we leave. What we should fight for, if we don't have a choice but to remain in AMISOM, is at the very least DEMAND the right to manage the Somali sectors that touch on our borders.... b6k: What EXACTLY, are you "begging to differ" from? All I did was to provide a view from a non-Kenyan researcher with a background in policing and counter terrorism, offering evidence, based on field research, including recorded interviews with Kenyan Al Shabaab members, that Kenyans are to be found among the strategists, planners and managers at the top echelons of Al Shabaab. The author then concludes that the present tactics and strategies of the Kenya government in combating terror have failed and offers concrete recommendations. Are you, b6k, disagreeing with Onyango Oloo or Dr. Anneli Botha and her team?Please clarify what you mean before we continue this conversation. As for the quote I have excerpted above, I am simply outstanding. From your contributions on Jukwaa since the years you joined, I formed the opinion that you are of ABOVE AVERAGE in terms of intelligence. My astonishment emanates from the PROFOUND IGNORANCE reeking in your opinion. Contrary to your throroughly ahistorical and unscientific assertion, have NOT been "invading KE" since time immemorial. Kenya itself did NOT EXIST less than 200 years ago. When did the disparate Somali clans consider themselves a nation? Where is the evidence to support your allegation that Somalis were to quote you "shopping for slaves" in Kenya? In my opinion the peoples who now calling themselves Kenyans, Somalis, Eritreans etc were originally just African people coexisting with varying degrees of peace and stability, punctuated with skirmishes and clashes over diverse issues-BEFORE the Europeans came and carved the continent during their infamous scramble creating artificial nation states all over the continent. Consider the fact that about ten years ago, there was a very real possibility of having two blood brothers as heads of state of two different countries- Kenya and Uganda. I am talking about the Awori brothers. Google for more information. My advice to you b6k, is to go back and read the ACTUAL ESSAY I WROTE. Respond to that article. As opposed to using this thread to talk about things that Onyango Oloo did not utter. Onyango Oloo
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 7, 2015 15:55:44 GMT 3
They're claptrap because they are nonsensical to modern way of thought that places high value on the right to life. Huh? Take a look at who's been killing who. In Africa, there is a lot of talk about Boko Haram and similar groups, but look at, say, the DRC. About 6 million dead since about 1998, i.e. near the end of the 20th, and without much "Islamic" help. (Similar staggering stories in other parts of Africa.) In Europe? There has been a tribunal to deal with certain people's actions right around the end of the 20th century. One of them being a Radovan Karadžić whose opening salvo was " In just a couple of days, Sarajevo will be gone and there will be five hundred thousand dead, in one month Muslims will be annihilated in Bosnia and Herzegovina". In the Middle East and near-by areas? The USA---how's that for "modern"---has itself been responsible for the deaths of many Muslims. (I'll have to check the figures to see if the new "Caliph" of ISIL has managed to catch up with Uncle Sam.) That is not what appears to be the case. On the contrary it is the so-called civilized people who have always led the way in the manufacture and application of the means of death. And when it comes specifically to violence in the name of religion, Christianity has a record that no other religion is yet close to matching. In that specific area known as the former NEP, what type of civilization was involved in the Wagalla Massacre? Colonial historical injustices are to be found all over the place. What I have in mind are specific injustices and marginalization meted out, by the Kenyan government, after the British had left; I see no reason to blame the British for those. The things that have to be addressed are detailed in the TJRC report that Uhuru buried; if you read it, you won't find odd fingers being pointed at the British. As for being prepared to shed tears, my view is that it is best to organize life in a way that avoids them. Otherwise, and unfortunately, recent events confirm that there will indeed be plenty of tears.
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 7, 2015 16:11:01 GMT 3
As for the former Kenyan still interested in Kenya....Moonki; he completely misses the context of my one liner!! It is a known fact that we were told by the likes of Hassan Omar that the rot cause of the radicalisation of youths getting into terror activities at the coast was due to poverty and unemployment! They called on the government to make employment available for the youths and they will not get radicalised!. And that call has now been invalidated on the basis of actions by ONE person? In any case, as a matter of "rough statistics", if there were several people involved in the attack, I would look the "characteristics" of the majority, not those of a single "outlier".
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 7, 2015 16:49:57 GMT 3
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 7, 2015 16:51:41 GMT 3
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 7, 2015 17:24:49 GMT 3
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Post by b6k on Apr 7, 2015 23:04:20 GMT 3
OO, I beg to differ with you. Somalis have always invaded KE from days immemorial be it shopping for slaves to be sold in Arab lands or just for pure sport. They hit us before we invaded Somalia in 2011 and will continue to do so even after we leave. What we should fight for, if we don't have a choice but to remain in AMISOM, is at the very least DEMAND the right to manage the Somali sectors that touch on our borders.... b6k: What EXACTLY, are you "begging to differ" from? All I did was to provide a view from a non-Kenyan researcher with a background in policing and counter terrorism, offering evidence, based on field research, including recorded interviews with Kenyan Al Shabaab members, that Kenyans are to be found among the strategists, planners and managers at the top echelons of Al Shabaab. The author then concludes that the present tactics and strategies of the Kenya government in combating terror have failed and offers concrete recommendations. Are you, b6k, disagreeing with Onyango Oloo or Dr. Anneli Botha and her team?Please clarify what you mean before we continue this conversation. As for the quote I have excerpted above, I am simply outstanding. From your contributions on Jukwaa since the years you joined, I formed the opinion that you are of ABOVE AVERAGE in terms of intelligence. My astonishment emanates from the PROFOUND IGNORANCE reeking in your opinion. Contrary to your throroughly ahistorical and unscientific assertion, have NOT been "invading KE" since time immemorial. Kenya itself did NOT EXIST less than 200 years ago. When did the disparate Somali clans consider themselves a nation? Where is the evidence to support your allegation that Somalis were to quote you "shopping for slaves" in Kenya? In my opinion the peoples who now calling themselves Kenyans, Somalis, Eritreans etc were originally just African people coexisting with varying degrees of peace and stability, punctuated with skirmishes and clashes over diverse issues-BEFORE the Europeans came and carved the continent during their infamous scramble creating artificial nation states all over the continent. Consider the fact that about ten years ago, there was a very real possibility of having two blood brothers as heads of state of two different countries- Kenya and Uganda. I am talking about the Awori brothers. Google for more information. My advice to you b6k, is to go back and read the ACTUAL ESSAY I WROTE. Respond to that article. As opposed to using this thread to talk about things that Onyango Oloo did not utter. Onyango OlooOO, I am disagreeing with you and your Non-Kenyan researcher. As far as I am aware,nobody has said Kenyan researchers are wanting in understanding the scope of the insurgency we find ourselves in. Like the Mt Elgon situation this is an insurgency, only many times multiplied in scope and geographic region. Granted there was no "Kenya" as we know it today, but from the British House of Lords excerpts I've provided above, surely even you can appreciate that the age old conflict between Somalis and future Kenyans was appreciated and documented by those who subdued Anneli Botha's ancestors in Zuid Afrika. The borders we call our countries are and will always be fictitious "lines in the sand" arbitrarily drawn by sons, not of our soil. But that said, we have VOLUNTARILY accepted to play the game of statehood by their rules. So when Jomo senior and his peers saw it fit to naively accept the pseudo-communistic (& quasi-racialist) ideals of Pan Africanism how pray tell can we attempt to play the game at a different level? Look at your mzungu Dr Botha's figures. They neatly add up to a 51% majority Kenyan homegrown problem until you realize that for every 1 Kenyan born Bajuni there are 7 Somali born Bajuni. Besides, who makes up the 49% majority shareholder in all things other than Kenyan Al Shabaab? I agree that Kenyans are to be found within Al Shabaab but they are by no means the source of the insurgency. Pardon me...let me rephrase that. They are not the majority of the insurgency. There are enough dimwitted Jihadists out there who are more than willing to finance and support the atrocities be they Kenyan, Yemen, Chechyan, Zanzibari or what have you. It is what it is. We have to live with the cards we were dealt, both by accident (colonial legacy) and by design (our founding fathers insistence)...
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Post by b6k on Apr 7, 2015 23:30:38 GMT 3
They're claptrap because they are nonsensical to modern way of thought that places high value on the right to life. Huh? Take a look at who's been killing who. In Africa, there is a lot of talk about Boko Haram and similar groups, but look at, say, the DRC. About 6 million dead since about 1998, i.e. near the end of the 20th, and without much "Islamic" help. (Similar staggering stories in other parts of Africa.) In Europe? There has been a tribunal to deal with certain people's actions right around the end of the 20th century. One of them being a Radovan Karadžić whose opening salvo was " In just a couple of days, Sarajevo will be gone and there will be five hundred thousand dead, in one month Muslims will be annihilated in Bosnia and Herzegovina". In the Middle East and near-by areas? The USA---how's that for "modern"---has itself been responsible for the deaths of many Muslims. (I'll have to check the figures to see if the new "Caliph" of ISIL has managed to catch up with Uncle Sam.) That is not what appears to be the case. On the contrary it is the so-called civilized people who have always led the way in the manufacture and application of the means of death. And when it comes specifically to violence in the name of religion, Christianity has a record that no other religion is yet close to matching. In that specific area known as the former NEP, what type of civilization was involved in the Wagalla Massacre? Colonial historical injustices are to be found all over the place. What I have in mind are specific injustices and marginalization meted out, by the Kenyan government, after the British had left; I see no reason to blame the British for those. The things that have to be addressed are detailed in the TJRC report that Uhuru buried; if you read it, you won't find odd fingers being pointed at the British. As for being prepared to shed tears, my view is that it is best to organize life in a way that avoids them. Otherwise, and unfortunately, recent events confirm that there will indeed be plenty of tears. Otishotish, people kill people for a myriad of reasons. Religion is one of the "better" ones with which to mask the atrocities. So whether you kill by the dozen as per Al Shabaab or by the hundreds of thousands as per Dubyah and Obama it's neither here no there. It's all about the end game. But rather than look at the "body count" as Christian instigated, you'd be better off at looking at it as capitalistically motivated since the line between Capitalism and Judeo-Christianity is very thin. What civilization was involved in the Wagalla massacre? Maybe the one that foresaw a softly-softly approach as not being in the best interests of the greater good. A Colonel Jessup of "A Few Good Men" mould because, Otishotish, "you can't handle the truth!" God dang it! How close is that Jessup name to Jesus? Even Hollywood perpetuates the myths...
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Post by kamalet on Apr 8, 2015 10:29:32 GMT 3
As for the former Kenyan still interested in Kenya....Moonki; he completely misses the context of my one liner!! It is a known fact that we were told by the likes of Hassan Omar that the rot cause of the radicalisation of youths getting into terror activities at the coast was due to poverty and unemployment! They called on the government to make employment available for the youths and they will not get radicalised!. And that call has now been invalidated on the basis of actions by ONE person? In any case, as a matter of "rough statistics", if there were several people involved in the attack, I would look the "characteristics" of the majority, not those of a single "outlier". ONE PERSON? ?? Have you heard of the three 'brides' caught headed to Somalia all of whom are in university? Is the watchman at Garissa University among the poor and jobless lured into terrorism? Did you hear of kids missing from school in Isiolo that had their parents worried and speaking to the media? It seems there is a lot you are unaware of!
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Post by nok on Apr 8, 2015 13:21:40 GMT 3
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 8, 2015 14:06:35 GMT 3
Granted there was no "Kenya" as we know it today, but from the British House of Lords excerpts etc etc etc b6k:Let me ask you something, and please be honest: Don't your arguments appear particularly weak and tepid, EVEN TO YOU???!! Onyango Oloo
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 8, 2015 14:52:56 GMT 3
ONE PERSON? ?? Have you heard of the three 'brides' caught headed to Somalia all of whom are in university? Is the watchman at Garissa University among the poor and jobless lured into terrorism? Did you hear of kids missing from school in Isiolo that had their parents worried and speaking to the media? It seems there is a lot you are unaware of! Elementary logic: (a) There were four or five people involved in the actual attack, all of whom I understand were killed. Have you established that all of those were among the "fortunate" who had the chance to enjoy the "good life" in Kenya, or was it just one of them? (By the way, has it actually been established that the brides you claim and the watchman were involved in some terrorist activity or inclined to be? And the same goes for the "missing" kids: missing kids and worried parents, eh? Never has the world heard of such a thing, which perhaps explains why I didn't hear of it!) (b) Let is take all the people in dead terrorists and the alleged would-be terrorists that have been "caught". That's a total of at most 9 people. Let us also suppose that all of them, including the watchman, were wealthy, well-educated, and either employed in good jobs or with the opportunity to be employed in that manner. Does it then follow that the problem of poor, jobless, marginalized youth in the NEP has been solved? Have the historical issues of the region now been dealt with? Your type of mindset shows why Kenya is in for a rough time: easy, misplaced dismissals are favoured over the understanding and hard work that is required for the necessary changes. As an alternative, I urge you to take the time to understand the relevant history of the region, history which the people there continue to live with. It is more than just that the Kenyan government has never made any effort to really integrate it into the rest of Kenya. And well before the Wagalla Massacre, the government of Kenya was at it and committing atrocities that make this attack look like a kid's Sunday-school picnic. Take a look at the TJRC report, which was not written by disgruntled Kenyan-Somalis or any other alleged would-be terrorists.
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Post by b6k on Apr 8, 2015 16:03:56 GMT 3
Granted there was no "Kenya" as we know it today, but from the British House of Lords excerpts etc etc etc b6k:Let me ask you something, and please be honest: Don't your arguments appear particularly weak and tepid, EVEN TO YOU???!! Onyango OlooNo.
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Post by podp on Apr 8, 2015 16:41:09 GMT 3
UPDATED WITH RELATED LINKS AND SOURCES. PRESS REFRESH/RELOAD IF YOU HAD READ IT EARLIER: it would be sobering for other Kenyan Rambo wannabes and American Sniper groupies on Twitter and Facebook to ponder deeply some of the concluding remarks of Dr. Anneli Botha in wrapping up her study: 2nd red high light after September 11 2001 terrorist attack in USA other than what we saw follow i.e. invasion and overthrowing of the Taliban in Afghanistan, back home in the USA they did undergo lots of soul searching. they did not start rounding up Muslims and putting then in Kasarani like we did with our folks in Eastleigh. USA now recruits Kiswahili, Arab, Urdu etc speakers and why do they do it? However, America must focus its finite capabilities on those who crave the destruction of planes and the people who ride them. What would that profile be? Today's threat comes almost exclusively from militant-Islamic males between about 18 and 35 who hail from the Middle East and predominantly Muslim African and south-Asian nations. This profile was not drawn by anti-Muslim bigots, nervous Jews, or paranoid Southern Baptists. The terrorists themselves created this profile. Aviation has obsessed them for years. "Bring down their airplanes," demanded Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, who inspired the 1993 World Trade Center attack. "Slaughter them on land, sea, and air." www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/11/27/how_airports_should_profile_terrorists_108071.htmlgot you one would be tempted to say until... She studied business in college, hung out at the pub with her friends and was known for her fashionable taste in clothes. So residents of this 900-year-old river town were thrown for a loop last year when Bouchra El-Hor, now 24, appeared in a British courtroom wearing handcuffs under an all-encompassing black veil. Prosecutors said she had covered up plans for a terrorist attack and wrote a letter offering to sacrifice herself and her infant son as martyrs. "We were flabbergasted to learn that she had become a fanatic," said Renee Haantjes, a college instructor who recalled her as "a normal Dutch girl." www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/11/AR2007031101618.html3rd red high light again borrowing from the September 11 2001 terrorist attack in USA they did.... Their profiles do not seem to match that of past suicide terrorists (young, poor, uneducated and indoctrinated): many were in their late twenties and thirties, most with college educations, and had lived for prolonged periods of time in western countries. 15 came from Saudi Arabia. The remaining four came from Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Lebanon. www.fact-index.com/p/pe/perpetrators_of_the_september_11__2001_terrorist_attacks.htmland we need our own website of most wanted, like www.nctc.gov/site/profiles/a-c.htmlso young Ababu is spot on when he demands public release of the Westgate Report and adds that "The population of Somalis in Ethiopia, which was the first nation to send its soldiers to Somalia, is 10 million, and the countries share a border. But Al-Shabaab attacks have never been reported in that nation. Ethiopia has invested heavily in intelligence gathering. Security matters should be handled confidentially contrary to our leaders' chest-thumping tendencies," said Namwamba. UNTAMED CORRUPTION "It is very unfortunate that a foreigner can get a Kenyan ID card and passport easier than Kenyans themselves because of untamed corruption in the key departments of Immigration and Registration of Persons," he observed. Read more at: www.standardmedia.co.ke/thecounties/article/2000157650/ababu-wants-westgate-report-made-publicso having our KDF in Somali is not helping and it is not going to help. if USA was using our logic they would have invaded Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE and Lebanon. we need to get our soldiers out of Somali unless we are party to the charcoal trade being run by Karangi and fellow CoS colleagues. certainly the script used at Westgate is the same for Garissa and forgiving Karangi and fellow nincompoops is not clever strategy. imagine after Garissa now we have.... The decision was made on Saturday in a meeting at State House that was attended by security chiefs and the President. It was arrived at after it emerged that more than 18 GSU officers who were to rescue the Garissa University students were stuck in traffic for almost an hour from Ruiru to Wilson Airport where they were to pick planes to Garissa. They had been on standby since 6am when the alarm signal was given. Read more at: standardmedia.co.ke/thecounties/article/2000157405/recce-squad-gets-two-choppers
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Post by podp on Apr 8, 2015 17:47:16 GMT 3
ONE PERSON? ?? Have you heard of the three 'brides' caught headed to Somalia all of whom are in university? Is the watchman at Garissa University among the poor and jobless lured into terrorism? Did you hear of kids missing from school in Isiolo that had their parents worried and speaking to the media? It seems there is a lot you are unaware of! Elementary logic: Your type of mindset shows why Kenya is in for a rough time: easy, misplaced dismissals are favoured over the understanding and hard work that is required for the necessary changes. As an alternative, I urge you to take the time to understand the relevant history of the region, history which the people there continue to live with. It is more than just that the Kenyan government has never made any effort to really integrate it into the rest of Kenya. And well before the Wagalla Massacre, the government of Kenya was at it and committing atrocities that make this attack look like a kid's Sunday-school picnic. Take a look at the TJRC report, which was not written by disgruntled Kenyan-Somalis or any other alleged would-be terrorists. red high light myths that need debunking by starting at www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000157425/hard-questions-after-garissa-means-no-lessons-learntThe fact that the paratroopers left only after politicians and other big men had rushed to the scene adds more poignancy to the situation. It is time that emergency and First Aid drills are included in school curricula to equip the people with the basic skills to survive and save others in times of emergency. The laxity of the security and intelligence forces is amplified in the accounts of students who survived the attack. and an agitated commentator on the above article does shout out.... CORRUPTION (especially as exhibited in the EACC report presented in Parliament last week) is diverting much needed funds into individual pockets instead of using the same to to fund and expand companies such as the RECCE squad, to pay and equip our police forces better, to purchase the much needed surveillance equipment, helicopters and other equipment that would aid in easy deployment under similar circumstances!!! Our ELECTED LEADERS have let us down!!!! how have others done it before us? go to nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB55/index1.htmlThis unclassified report, prepared by the FBI’s Counterterrorism Threat Assessment and Warning Unit covers a variety of topics. It discusses the guidelines under which the FBI investigates terrorism in the United States – a topic that has already become the subject of debate in the aftermath of the September 11 attack. It also reviews both terrorist incidents, the investigation of incidents, and incidents prevented during 1998. It notes that after the August 7 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa, the FBI “quickly focused investigative attention on terrorist financier Usama bin Ladin and his terrorist network Al-qaida.” “Significant events” include indictments, trials, convictions as well as the creation of plans to establish a National Domestic Preparedness Office. what have our own researchers told us? Large-scale inter-ethnic violence is a new phenomenon in Kenya. The proximate causes of violence are intrinsically related to democratization and the electoral cycle; its roots are to be found in recent times and are politically instigated, and not primordial. kessa.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Felicia_A_Yieke_Kenya_Studies_Review_KSR-december_2011.351100941.pdf“The attack in Garissa is obviously the work of Kenyan Somalis. Let us not blame Somalia’s Al-Shabaab. This is local,” he tweeted. “Let us be truthful to ourselves. Kenyan Somalis and their leaders must stop the senseless killings in northern Kenya. Full stop,” he said in another tweet. And in yet another tweet, Mr Abdullahi wrote: “Evidence emerged that an employee of Garissa univ (sic) related to the mastermind of the attack (Mohamed) Kuno helped the attackers in surveying (the area) for a week.” mobile.nation.co.ke/news/Ahmednasir-Abdullahi-Garissa-Attack/-/1950946/2678916/-/format/xhtml/-/ci37l4/-/index.html
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Post by kamalet on Apr 9, 2015 17:46:20 GMT 3
ONE PERSON? ?? Have you heard of the three 'brides' caught headed to Somalia all of whom are in university? Is the watchman at Garissa University among the poor and jobless lured into terrorism? Did you hear of kids missing from school in Isiolo that had their parents worried and speaking to the media? It seems there is a lot you are unaware of! Elementary logic: (a) There were four or five people involved in the actual attack, all of whom I understand were killed. Have you established that all of those were among the "fortunate" who had the chance to enjoy the "good life" in Kenya, or was it just one of them? (By the way, has it actually been established that the brides you claim and the watchman were involved in some terrorist activity or inclined to be? And the same goes for the "missing" kids: missing kids and worried parents, eh? Never has the world heard of such a thing, which perhaps explains why I didn't hear of it!) Being no longer Kenyan and only appearing to be interested in news of how ODM is being cheated, it is highly unlikely that you will ever hear of what I am talking about! Do try and scour the newspapers this week you will find stories of missing young person. It is a real pity you think yourself as the world! (b) Let is take all the people in dead terrorists and the alleged would-be terrorists that have been "caught". That's a total of at most 9 people. Let us also suppose that all of them, including the watchman, were wealthy, well-educated, and either employed in good jobs or with the opportunity to be employed in that manner. Does it then follow that the problem of poor, jobless, marginalized youth in the NEP has been solved? Have the historical issues of the region now been dealt with? If you can provide a number of the poor, uneducated and jobless who are terrorists....then perhaps you can try and see what I am talking about! My point remains very simple - radicalisation is not a problem of the poor and uneducated; it is a society problem that does not care for class! Perhaps being 'out there' you probably know of the news reports of the number of young people joining ISIS from western Europe!!! Your type of mindset shows why Kenya is in for a rough time: easy, misplaced dismissals are favoured over the understanding and hard work that is required for the necessary changes. As an alternative, I urge you to take the time to understand the relevant history of the region, history which the people there continue to live with. It is more than just that the Kenyan government has never made any effort to really integrate it into the rest of Kenya. And well before the Wagalla Massacre, the government of Kenya was at it and committing atrocities that make this attack look like a kid's Sunday-school picnic. Take a look at the TJRC report, which was not written by disgruntled Kenyan-Somalis or any other alleged would-be terrorists. My type of mindset is not representative of the coming rough times in Kenya! Address the problem and perhaps you can understand the problem! The radicalisation of the Somali people has nothing to do with your claims of marginalisation for there are very many well educated and well to do Somalis in Kenya and many of them hold senior government positions as well as in industry. I probably know the history of NEP better than you and understand the difficulties of the former NFD relative to other parts of Kenya! That we have Somali terrorists in our midst today has nothing to do with the history of 'alleged marginalisation'. It is simply a problem of radicalisation which is a new Islamic phenomenon in the world! Running to the TJRC report and hoping that the Wagalla Massacre - regrettable as it was - is an explanation of the reason behind the woes of the region is rather thick. Greater atrocities have been visited upon Kenyans by the government as well as by Kenyans on Kenyans themselves, but that has not resulted in a community so affected resorting to terrorism activities! Pointing at the educated being radicalised into terrorism shows that the war is not to be seen from the simplistic previous thinking that only the poor and uneducated are easily recruited into terrorism. That cannot be too hard to see!
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