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Post by job on Mar 11, 2008 6:49:24 GMT 3
Anti-change forces (in plum vantage points) currently benefiting from the previous arrangement and flawed institutions are REACTING. But Adongo, I doubt they will kill the deal.
Those fearing that investigative processes may further unearth scandals they're deeply involved in, would want to hang onto the current flawed system AT ALL COST.
Thus these queer interpretations of a well written Annan Accord, by the Muthauras and Mutuas.
One thing I can guarantee is that Muthaura and Mutua are merely representing interests above them,.....emanating from (a) State House (if not Kibaki himself, someone representing GEMA succession speculators), (b) Kabarnet Gardens (directly from Moi), and (c) Veep Kalonzo Musyoka.
Remember the usual ganging together of the same fearful conservative forces that have always SUCCEEDED IN FORESTALLING REFORMS IN KENYA.
The Kibaki-Moi-Kalonzo axis, and probably joined by the over-anxious succession duo of Uhuru-Saitoti have every reason to fear over Raila's imminent access to REAL executive powers, not only entrenched in a constitution, but also largely endorsed by most Kenyans and the international community.
But I would love to remind them that this power-sharing prescription was not a homegrown settlement designed in Kenya (unfortunately). Kuna wenyewe and they're monitoring closely (SAD REALITY, IRONICALLY).
I MUST SAY........ THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO MUTHAURA AND MUTUA....... FOR PUBLICLY JUMP-STARTING WHAT SOME OF US SUSPECTED WAS EVENTUALLY GOING TO BE INEVITABLE.
No one should be in denial here. The writings of mischief are on the wall but the ukora must be consigned into the dustbin of history.
FOLKS, HITTING THE STREETS AND CORRIDORS OF FOREIGN CAPITALS & TOWNS OF KENYA YET AGAIN, MAY BE SOON COMING. LET'S BE ON VIGILANCE MODE WITH AN EYE IN BUNGE, STARTING TOMORROW.
The bottom line is that IDPs have not been resettled, the nation has not been reconciled, and electoral and constitutional reforms have not even began.
The only agreement (ANNAN ACCORD) so far signed only opens AN OPPORTUNITY for the above to be possible.
Muthaura and Mutua are well aware, as are most Kenyans and the international community are, that neither Kibaki & PNU allies working alone, nor Raila and ODM alone, CAN at this point and time ;
- RESETTLE ALL IDP'S - REVIEW & RECONSTITUTE THE ELECTORAL PROCESS & ECK - REVIEW THE CONSTITUTION - ESTABLISH A NEUTRAL TRUTH & JUSTICE COMMISSION - EFFECT REALISTIC RESTORATION OF PEACE AND HARMONY IN KENYA & - GOVERN EFFECTIVELY
THE TWO mouth-pieces (muthaura & mutua) & those who sent them NEED to be REMINDED that the only way to achieve the above priority objectives is through a TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENT that was already SIGNED under the FULL glare of key international and regional bodies which provided for REAL POWER SHARING with NO ILLUSIONS.
Kenyans and the international community alike must rise up and send this dose of ILLUSION being prescribed by MUTHAURA & MUTUA back to those who sent them on this TRIAL RUN.
Wananchi are not going to eat illusions.
NOTHING but REAL POWER-SHARING is going to guarantee RESETTLEMENT OF IDP'S, NATIONAL RECONCILIATION, TRUTH, JUSTICE AND RESTITUTION, ELECTORAL REVIEW & REFORMS, AND MOST IMPORTANT - CONSTITUTIONAL REFORMS, PERIOD!
Once beaten, twice shy! We have already walked the path of trying to get REFORMS with ONE POLITICAL FACTION (aka PNU) MONOPOLIZING POWER. We know exactly where it ends.
Anything short of REAL POWER-SHARING is and will always remain AN ILLUSION and a waste of time, energy and resources. In short, it will never be accepted.
These prescriptions of doses of ILLUSION are the last kicks meant to trigger a stormy environment ripe for scuttling the LEGISLATIVE PHASE slated to cement the PRIME MINISTER's position AND FUTURE ROLE.
Just when the political environment looks calm and peaceful (as when Raila and Kibaki are sharing an afternoon together in a golf course -however bitter the pill may taste, however much it's just a pretentious act), then this!
We know that during calm, the general expectation is that legislators would most likely tend to soften hardline positions ( at least in public view).
Under such circumstances, MPs would likely agree quickly to cooperate in the national, rather than sectarian, interest AND ENTRENCH THE PM POSITION TO REFLECT REAL POWER-SHARING.
When temperatures are deliberately heightened (as exactly done by Muthaura and Mutua) you start to see the creepy fingerprints of the Moi-Kibaki axis and students of Nyayoism like Kalonzo, Uhuru, and Mutula Kilonzo. They hope to create road blocks ahead, TO GIVE AN ILLUSION OF POWER SHARING WHEN IN REALITY IT IS NOT.
To them, their narrow interests supercede national interests. Raila must be stopped at all cost.
After passing the ethnic discrimination test, passing the campaign propaganda test and passing the ballot test, RAILA STILL HAS TO BE STOPPED according to these fellas. If he wasn't stopped at Kivuitu's desk, and not stopped at Kofi Annan's desk,...it's time to stop him in Parliament. Is this the war cry meant to mobilize his stopping in Bunge?
Just as Moi's fingerprints have been directly involved in the arrest of his former harsh critic, Jackson Kibor, and in Kalonzo's unsuccessful London-Washington visit to attempt to scuttle the power-sharing deal.....so will these latest attempts fail.
We need to hit the trail again and MOBILIZE, ORGANIZE and network with the local communities, communities in diaspora and our regional and international allies since the FIRST STONE HAS BEEN THROWN BY FRANCIS MUTHAURA AND ALFRED MUTUA on behalf of their masters.
Let us correctly interpret and relay this message appropriately to each other and to our allies, that TROUBLE IS ON THE WAY.
We voted for CHANGE, and we were given the STATUS QUO. We resisted, and eventually got a compromise for REAL POWER-SHARING.
NOW SOMEONE WANTS TO AGAIN STEAL REAL-POWER-SHARING & REPLACE IT WITH AN ILLUSION.
The news is,...we are not eating any ILLUSION.
Its time to resettle IDP's, and start electoral and constitutional reforms only via REAL, 50-50 POWER SHARING.
JOB.
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kelly
Junior Member
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Post by kelly on Mar 11, 2008 8:46:37 GMT 3
I had earlier talked about preparing for war even as the peace-deal was being signed and I was told to take the chill pill. I gave Jukwaa upto the ides of March. If nobody explains to me by that time how the coalition will work as I understand it from Kofi's mouth, then secession should be the only option we should be pursuing.
The war drums should start being sounded. Kamale please take this back to your PNU folks. War is coming. Prepare to kill 1million Luos, but yes war is coming.
Kenyans demonstrate about rigged elections, they killed left right and centre with many more arrested. Mungiki demonstrates in teh heart of Nairobi about Kikuyu supremearcy, the f.ucking police tell us, they had no idea how 3000 men gathered in Nairobi and no arrests.
Come Monday, homeguard Karua and Muthurwa tells us to relax, PNU is still on cruise control. The peace-deal was just but a mere piece of paper! Good, then Kenyans will go to war and if they act shocked like in January, we will tell them to go to court, relax, a new peace deal will be signed, in teh meantime they should prepare receiving refugees.
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Post by deyiengs on Mar 11, 2008 10:09:34 GMT 3
Folks, As much as I was mad when I first read about this stint, I quickly remembered that I was, after all, mad that Raila had been shortchanged; you know what people, I’M SO GLAD now. Happy and jolly that this happened. Mutua and Muthaura did the right thing. They made us know well in advance before the bill is even introduced in parliament.
I wish the PNU don’t vote for it when it’s presented in parliament. I can’t wait to see Kalonzo and Mutula vote against it. BTW, Mutula is really doing some legal advice and interpretation for the MKM. This dude is on a steady crescendo.
I have feared for Raila’s life, and I still fear for it. They way these jamaas hurriedly allocated ‘security detail’ to him, left a lot of question marks. You know one thing that these folks always believe in is that Raila supporters are people who can be easily deceived and true to their word, they somehow succeeded. They exited the ODM masses by quickly giving Raila the “king” status. I watched that youtube video and was kind of perplexed. The way The Standard reported it also created an exiting aroma to the whole thing and boy, ODMers were all excited. Kumbe it meant something else.
Having said that, don’t you guys feel that Raila should be extra careful with these so called ‘security details’ and all these limos he’s said to be assigned to? Do you guys remember what happened to Laurent-Désiré Kabila of DRC? I see something of that sort coming (God forbid).
I’m sure kibaki is in his plan D now, probably there’s little or no more cards left for him. And since he’s been unsuccessful in the previous attempts, he’ll want to make sure that this last card will be executed with pin-point precision.
Adongo, I thought I constantly reminded you of all these. ODM and PNU cannot work together. That is one bitter fact that we will soon have to accept. Job, boy I admire your argument. The anti-change forces are truly awake and alert. You couldn’t have explained it better. I join you in giving thanks to the Mutas and Muthauras. They did us a big favour. Even though we’ve always know what’s up in their sleeves, they made it easy for ODM. JAHAATWACH, we need to call spade a spade. Rucy had nothing to do with this. Kibaki is the artchitecture. He is the commander-in-chief of the MKM and I’m sure that contrary to what we are made to believe that his lieutenants i.e Michuki, Karua, Kiraitu etc, are always to blame, is simple false. this guys is does everything single handedly. If you didn’t know, know it from me today. PManiac, these folks(PANUA) never learn and are not interested in learning. It has always been official. They really wanted Koffi Annan to get out the county as soon as possible so that they take over.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 11, 2008 10:45:54 GMT 3
I am not sure why people do not read what is written first before taking in emotions of what they think is written.
I suggested that the deal was flawed in the way it was worded and some people warned me that the likes of Kamale and "PNU supremacists" should not play with the minds of Kenyans! I came back and said that the issue is really to do with ensuring that the agreement and the attendant laws do not leave room for mischief.
As I have been away the last couple of days, I did not get time to suggest why Raila should reject all the trappings of power now being passed onto him. Those who know Raila well, understand that he is an egomaniac and it is things like the Hummer and now the motorcade that massage his ego best! When it is constantly repeated that he is PM and the Standard sees it as a big deal that he has a motorcade, people seem to forget that these trappings of power will trap the man to make mistakes - and this includes leaving himself exposed to the things now being exposed by Muthaura. Mutula Kilonzo suggests that Muthaura is actually correct and if you do read the Act (forget the agreement for a while), Muthaura is actually correct! That in essence is what the two "principals" agreed to. The constitution will still have the statement " The Executive Authority of Kenya will be vested in the President". The constutition will be amended to allow for the President to APPOINT the PM and have a PM responsible to the president!
It is perhaps important to read the documents and even between the lines before imagining that the deal ever made the PM executive. Supervising and coordinating to me reads like what Muthaura used to do and does not mean anything executive.
But then this is Jukwaa.
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Post by mzee on Mar 11, 2008 11:38:13 GMT 3
Jukwaaists, ODM need to be very careful as you have mentioned above as PANU is always in the process of cokking this or that mischief and Kibaki as always feigns ignorance. What I love about the agreement is the safety valve that comes with it ie if any one of the two partners withdraw then the deal is dead and a new election is called. To me, Muthaura is just postering and trying to pull tricks that cant work. The man is a pathetic tribalist.
ODM must try and remain united because the next logical step PANU will take is to split the party into two or more pieces, withdraw from the agreement, call an election and beat a divided ODM. The process of dividing ODM is already on. You have noticed some characters from WP and RVP fighting over the deputy PM position (even those not in ODM).
If PANU bring nyokonyoko then ODM should pull out and a new election should be called.
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Post by mzee on Mar 11, 2008 12:07:16 GMT 3
There is nothing that scares the shit out of MKM than RAO having an insight into what they are doing. I think that a situation will arise whereby the KMK leaning ministers will nor report to RAO but instead go diectly to bandit president Kibaki. As fas as Im concerned, they cannot curtail the powers of teh PM but they might try frustrating him as much as they can. Which in turns means that an election is probably in the offing come 2009.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 11, 2008 12:47:50 GMT 3
Just where did this notion come from that in the event of the coalition 'dying' there will be an election?
My reading of the agreement and also the Act makes no reference to a new election in the event of a pre-mature end to the coalition
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Post by genius on Mar 11, 2008 13:27:20 GMT 3
Well, Kamau. as usual you go ahead and run your mouth before using your head to think clearly what you are about to say.
ODM has over half of the MPs in Parliament. it is very easy for them force a general elction any time just by moving and passing a vote of no confidence on the president.
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bob
Full Member
Posts: 238
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Post by bob on Mar 11, 2008 15:57:42 GMT 3
GUILITY CONCIOUS NEEDS NO ACCUSER. Looks like some people are already identifying themselves as possible casualties of the new government. Muthauras & Karuas seem to be ready to test the patience of Kenyans. Remember calm is NOT peace & it takes a few mouths to open & we will go back to people living in tents. And with the rains coming anger in the ordinary citizen is piling already, be it PNU or ODM, honestly nobody however insane wants that kind of shit gain.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 11, 2008 16:08:40 GMT 3
What gurantees were placed into the Annan accords to ensure the timelines were kept, and the fidelity of the contents remain unchanged?
Power yields nothing without a fight - Fredrick Douglas.
R said he has direct access to the thief in chief. He better get on the phone with this dude for these shenanigans are unacceptable
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Post by mzee on Mar 11, 2008 16:10:50 GMT 3
Just where did this notion come from that in the event of the coalition 'dying' there will be an election? My reading of the agreement and also the Act makes no reference to a new election in the event of a pre-mature end to the coalition KAMALE,I do agree that there is nothing explicit about an election in the agreement but all I know is that MKM will be up to some kind of mischief sooner or later. ODM and PANU will lock horns just as they did in 2002-2003. This will start as soon as we begin discussing the constitution. Majimbo and equity is still on ODMs lips while imperial presidency is still an in thing for PANU. Its going to be tough, very dirty and mean. Since the president will not be able to fire the PM, the only logical step would be to call a new elections as the above event might completely paralyse the government. Unlike the 2003 when Kibaki was able to fire everybody from LDP from his cabinet, it might be another ball game all together this time round. So we are due to have an election soon given the way Muthaura and company are behaving. It means that they are not acting in good faith.
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Post by mzee on Mar 11, 2008 17:15:03 GMT 3
Folks, Having said that, don’t you guys feel that Raila should be extra careful with these so called ‘security details’ and all these limos he’s said to be assigned to? Do you guys remember what happened to Laurent-Désiré Kabila of DRC? I see something of that sort coming (God forbid). I have discussed the above issue with soem friends of mine and came to the same conclusion ie R should watch his back. The so called security detail was raining blows and tearsgas at him just the other day. I did see something really perculiar here: See the two bold headed mean looking guys? They are actually Railas private bodyguards. At the foot of the dias stands the so called Reece security details. What a funny arrangment? R seem nnot to be comfi with the so called security detail.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 11, 2008 18:31:07 GMT 3
Just where did this notion come from that in the event of the coalition 'dying' there will be an election? My reading of the agreement and also the Act makes no reference to a new election in the event of a pre-mature end to the coalition KAMALE,I do agree that there is nothing explicit about an election in the agreement but all I know is that MKM will be up to some kind of mischief sooner or later. ODM and PANU will lock horns just as they did in 2002-2003. This will start as soon as we begin discussing the constitution. Majimbo and equity is still on ODMs lips while imperial presidency is still an in thing for PANU. Its going to be tough, very dirty and mean. Since the president will not be able to fire the PM, the only logical step would be to call a new elections as the above event might completely paralyse the government. Unlike the 2003 when Kibaki was able to fire everybody from LDP from his cabinet, it might be another ball game all together this time round. So we are due to have an election soon given the way Muthaura and company are behaving. It means that they are not acting in good faith. Mzee, When I wrote about the loopholes and warned they could be used to derail the agreement, many of you said that this or that cannot happen and that I was infact pushing for its failure. I have been on record asking that even you ODM fellows should question the agreement and the Act to ensure that it does not provide for mischief, but the problem is that people are blinded by what they think they got rather than actually reading to see what they missed out. I insist this thing is flawed.
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Post by wakwitu on Mar 11, 2008 18:39:31 GMT 3
Jukwaists: I actually think and thought Kamale was onto something when he raised the issue of the interpretation of the agreement. I did not and still do not agree with his conclusion, but he raises a valid issue - what does the Annan Accords mean in terms of power sharing? I think it means two things: pnu give up more than it wanted to give up - as evidence through Karua's reaction and now Lucy- who would not show up for the opening of parliament. Actions and inactions do say something.
If this PM position was the #3 position with someone subject to the prezzo , why did Karua's team trash it? Why did they fight and still are fighting so hard against it - if it carries no power other than satisfying Raila's ego? Would they not happily and quickly have signed it?
On the other hand Annan Accords means less than the ODM wanted - given the jittery reaction that I read here for instance. Yet, Orengo was the ODMer representative responsible for drafting how it would be enacted into law, I do not think that he would not catch the “kasoro” with the bill. For me what I like about it is the promise of constitutional dispensation.
Wananchi - this is a long drawn out war - I do not understand the "let us secede" or “let us arm” mentality. We reached a no return point long time; why would we be surprised that these folks would keep fighting against giving up power. In fact I would have been very suspicious had they gone hopping and skipping to the signing fete.
Also let us not forget that the Karuas of Kenya have an audience and it is one that feels very aggrieved. They have to show that the are fighting for this audience, just like she did during the talks.. I do not think most ODM’ers on Jukwaa appreciate the anger and resentment that the GEMA community has because of the IDP from Central. We have underestimated that anger, yet it drives how pnu is now defining the political discourse and it is driving the political decisions. Underestimate that anger at a cost. To that extent I think Karua’s star has risen and Uhuru’s has dimmed somewhat in Central [but that is another topic]
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Post by mzee on Mar 11, 2008 18:51:30 GMT 3
KAMALE,I do agree that there is nothing explicit about an election in the agreement but all I know is that MKM will be up to some kind of mischief sooner or later. ODM and PANU will lock horns just as they did in 2002-2003. This will start as soon as we begin discussing the constitution. Majimbo and equity is still on ODMs lips while imperial presidency is still an in thing for PANU. Its going to be tough, very dirty and mean. Since the president will not be able to fire the PM, the only logical step would be to call a new elections as the above event might completely paralyse the government. Unlike the 2003 when Kibaki was able to fire everybody from LDP from his cabinet, it might be another ball game all together this time round. So we are due to have an election soon given the way Muthaura and company are behaving. It means that they are not acting in good faith. Mzee, When I wrote about the loopholes and warned they could be used to derail the agreement, many of you said that this or that cannot happen and that I was infact pushing for its failure. I have been on record asking that even you ODM fellows should question the agreement and the Act to ensure that it does not provide for mischief, but the problem is that people are blinded by what they think they got rather than actually reading to see what they missed out. I insist this thing is flawed. KAMALE, The thing could be actually flawed but I think that PANU and ODM should interrogate their souls and act in a way which is in tangent with the wishes of most Kenyans. All Kenyans are asking for is peace. Perhaps the parliament might see and amend the loopholes you mentioned. Otherwise we might be going for a second round of internal strife.
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Post by mzee on Mar 11, 2008 19:15:54 GMT 3
Jukwaists: I actually think and thought Kamale was onto something when he raised the issue of the interpretation of the agreement. I did not and still do not agree with his conclusion, but he raises a valid issue - what does the Annan Accords mean in terms of power sharing? I think it means two things: pnu give up more than it wanted to give up - as evidence through Karua's reaction and now Lucy- who would not show up for the opening of parliament. Actions and inactions do say something. If this PM position was the #3 position with someone subject to the prezzo , why did Karua's team trash it? Why did they fight and still are fighting so hard against it - if it carries no power other than satisfying Raila's ego? Would they not happily and quickly have signed it? On the other hand Annan Accords means less than the ODM wanted - given the jittery reaction that I read here for instance. Yet, Orengo was the ODMer representative responsible for drafting how it would be enacted into law, I do not think that he would not catch the “kasoro” with the bill. For me what I like about it is the promise of constitutional dispensation. Wananchi - this is a long drawn out war - I do not understand the "let us secede" or “let us arm” mentality. We reached a no return point long time; why would we be surprised that these folks would keep fighting against giving up power. In fact I would have been very suspicious had they gone hopping and skipping to the signing fete. Also let us not forget that the Karuas of Kenya have an audience and it is one that feels very aggrieved. They have to show that the are fighting for this audience, just like she did during the talks.. I do not think most ODM’ers on Jukwaa appreciate the anger and resentment that the GEMA community has because of the IDP from Central. We have underestimated that anger, yet it drives how pnu is now defining the political discourse and it is driving the political decisions. Underestimate that anger at a cost. To that extent I think Karua’s star has risen and Uhuru’s has dimmed somewhat in Central [but that is another topic] I think that Kibaki and co thought they could ignore the IDP question, at least for sometime.. The problem is that the IDP`s have been very aggressive lately. They want back all which is rightfully theirs and they expect GEMA politicians to fight for them. Problem is that people like Uhuru, Kibaki, Michuki etc are afraid of shouting too loud about land ownership for they too are in the midst of the land grabbing mess. This leaves people like Karua who dont have such history to speak with some amount of confidence knowing full well that nobody will accusse her of land grabbing. Besides, Uhuru has also indulged himself with Mungiki. It is said that he is one of their financiers. Truth be told, Uhuru is rotten to the bone. Just see the way he handled nomination to different councils. The constitution might be enacted in one years time as promised by both Raila and Kibaki. I only hope that the Kiraitu Murungi warlike activities which marred the same event in the run up to the last referundum will not resurface. But since one never knows, lets brace ourselves for a tough time for some people believe that one has to oppose everything.
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Mukwhasi
Full Member
Justice will live on ..
Posts: 180
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Post by Mukwhasi on Mar 11, 2008 22:36:27 GMT 3
Why is it that its only grey haired old men carry bad news, first it was Kivuitu now Matharau,God help kenya.Do these people ever think beyond Kibakis stolen term , Kibaki will go and Kenya will always be here .
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 11, 2008 22:47:51 GMT 3
Folks,
I honestly do not think that the forces of desperation who want to derail the Peace Accord have a chance in hell of realizing their dream. There is a reason Kibaki signed the deal. He did not have a choice. In the same way Kibaki and even the chauvinist relics trying to sabotage and derail the deal today have no choice today but to support the deal and the bills in parliament as proposed.
People like Kamale going wire here on Jukwaa are actually trying to convince themselves that what they are seeing is not happening. Guess what? It is.
The nation is on full alert thanks to the Muthauras, Mutuas and Karuas. The nation will confine their chauvinist ambitions to the dustbins of history where they belong. I will say more.
adongo.
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Post by che on Mar 11, 2008 23:20:59 GMT 3
Wakwitu, I thought the whole deal was actually catering for even the IDP? As a matter of fact comprehensive land reforms would benefit the IDPs probably more than any other single group! No sir Karau is NOT driven by her love for the IDPs from central province BUT the selfish interest of the Lords who are prepared to use everybody and anything to protect their lordship over us! If Karua care about the IDPs she would support this process as it is the only way IDPs will ever get back what RIGHTFULLY belongs to them. Failure to this process basically means they should forget about their property!
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Post by kamalet on Mar 11, 2008 23:33:36 GMT 3
Folks,I honestly do not think that the forces of desperation who want to derail the Peace Accord have a chance in hell of realizing their dream. There is a reason Kibaki signed the deal. He did not have a choice. In the same way Kibaki and even the chauvinist relics trying to sabotage and derail the deal today have no choice today but to support the deal and the bills in parliament as proposed. People like Kamale going wire here on Jukwaa are actually trying to convince themselves that what they are seeing is not happening. Guess what? It is. The nation is on full alert thanks to the Muthauras, Mutuas and Karuas. The nation will confine their chauvinist ambitions to the dustbins of history where they belong. I will say more. adongo. Adongo I am actually surprised that you still do not get it. You can sit and imagine that Muthaura is attempting to derail what Raila and his supporters think they got. There is something about a written agreement and the spirit of it on the other hand. ODM supporters can have and imagine all sorts of interpretation, but as long as the written word says something else, then it will be held against them - and would you say that ignorance is an excuse? When I shouted that this deal was flawed, you still carried the same attitude you have now. When I said that I could not imagine than a lawyer of Orengo's repute did not see this coming, I was called a devious person. Mutula Kilonzo now claims that Muthaura is actually correct - but hold on a minute....who issues the statement on behalf of ODM? Why not Raila, why not Salim Lone and why not Prof. Nyong'o? You guys want to sit and assume the deal is good and when your are reminded of it you still insist it is good. When the flaws are flagged, you now see saboteurs! If you want this thing to work, lobby your ODM MP to have the agreement re-drawn to ensure there is no room for mischief. If you do not, even a court of law will not help you...and neither will Raila. The world assumes he is an educated man and knows what he signed for.
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Post by wakwitu on Mar 11, 2008 23:42:27 GMT 3
Che: Excellent point abut the agreement catering to IDPs. The only problem is that, that is not how it is read on the ground. If you read the pnu listservs and chatter rooms, it is about political power, and what mzee notes [getting back what is ours and "justice"].
Whereas Karua might not necessarily love the IDPs, yet I do think there is bitterness borne out of this past violent experience and the ingrained belief that "Raira" a k*hee would actually be an exeutive.
As for Ruto - do not even go there, I never thought there would be as much animosity as there is toward Ruto as a Kalenjin. That is part of teh cultural engine that is driving their misguided agenda...among others. We need to apprecaite that and know what it is we are dealing it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2008 23:45:29 GMT 3
I guess that not every one in PNU supports Muthaura
The Standard Online | Mar 11 2008
Leaders say Parliament has final word on deal
Published on March 12, 2008, 12:00 am
By Francis Ngige and Alex Ndegwa
Pro-government MPs have lashed out at the Head of Civil Service, Mr Francis Muthaura, over his remarks on the structure of the proposed grand coalition Government.
They said by defining the duties of the President, Prime Minister and other top officials, Muthaura was usurping the role of Parliament.
And Senior Counsel and former Kikuyu MP, Mr Paul Muite, dismissed Muthaura’s assertion that the PM would "co-ordinate and supervise Government functions under the authority of the President".
He said once the post was anchored in the Constitution, the holder would exercise executive authority.
"Let no one be under any illusion on the effect of the proposed amendment to Section 16 of the Constitution (to establish the post) because it will vest executive authority on the office of Prime Minister," he said.
Speaking separately on Tuesday, Mr Emilio Kathuri (Manyatta), Mr Peter Gitau (Mwea) and Mr Jeremiah Kioni of Ndaragwa said the Secretary to the Cabinet should "keep quiet".
"Muthaura should watch his mandate. He should not talk about a matter that is coming up in Parliament," said Kathuri.
The leaders said it was only President Kibaki and ODM leader, Mr Raila Odinga, who should issue a statement on the matter.
But Nakuru Town MP, Mr Lee Kinyanjui, backed Muthaura.
"He stated the right position on the provisions of the agreement, which is a public document having been published in the media," he said.
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Post by deyiengs on Mar 11, 2008 23:54:57 GMT 3
Kamalet, when you first shouted about this 'flawed' deal you were talking about how PANU has more MPs and that, according to the agreement that was signed that PM was to go to PANU. In fact you even went ahead and listed how the vacant seats would be filled by PANU. After that adongo, pmanniac and the rest placed you where you belong and you literally went missing. Now you’ve resurfaced with this, didn’t-I-tell-you notion. ODM is not begging for power, they are demanding for it and if you think that PANU will use the loop-holes to create some illusions on ODM, sorry.
You should understand that this thing must be right. If the deal was in a way flawed in the first place, it's not the business of PANU to take advantage of it. We are not assuming that the deal is good, we know it should be alright; coz there is literally no provision for it to be stale. It MUST be good. And what's this bull that PANUAists like you keep on floating about courts of law. For the umpteenth time, ODM won't take this thing to court of Gicheru and co. if you can't understand that, we are not to blame.
(duh..! I hate responding to you)
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 12, 2008 0:25:39 GMT 3
Kamale
Just for the record you referred to yourself as having "devious mind" so don't blame that on us? Now that we have that part out of the way let's get to business.
Number one, what exactly is wrong with the bills that have been tabled in parliament as we speak? There are four of them I believe. I will restrict myself to one, namely the constitutional amendment bill which will integrate the office of the PM as one of the executive branches of power which includes, the presidency and the cabinet? This is a critical bill because as of right now the office of the PM is not recognized in our constitution. The bill will go further to define the duties and responsibilities of the PM which will include among others the responsibility to "supervise and coordinate" the activities of the cabinet? Of course the bill also says the PM will perform any other duties assigned by the president.
So what do you suggest is wrong with this particular bill? Where is the loophole? What does this bill have to do with what Muthaura was talking about? Muthaura by the way was not talking about the bills before parliament but what he perceived to be the implications of the original National Accord. My point here is that the deal has now been translated in bills. So let's forget what Muthaura thinks or wants or even his delusions but rather what the actual bills says. So I challenge you to tell our Jukwaa folks what you think is wrong with the constitutional amendment bill establishing the PM's office and I will be very happy as well as others to challenge our friends in ODM to explain to us why they are supporting a defective bill?
Your earlier assertion was that establishing an office of the PM without amending the constitution will be illegal and could be challenged in court. That assertion is now irrelevant because the bill establishing the office is actually a constitutional amendment bill. That i swhat I said then and that is what I am reminding you about now.
Let me tell you my real concern on the bill and I need to read the specific details to be sure. But I am suggesting like many others have that the bill be very clear on how the PM can be removed from office. Sadik and other legal minds of Jukwaa have indicated since the Act establishing the office will require a two thirds majority in the National Assembly to pass, in the same way the Act should make it clear that only a two third majority in parliament can remove the PM from office. I suggest we should verify that as soon as possible and I will.
Your other issue was that as framed the PM will be from a party or a coalition with majority with in parliament. You suggested that ODM could be in trouble if and when PNU and their allies have a majority in parliament. My contention here is that it would be unfair to frame the issue any other way. We cannot have a law which says the PM must come from a particular party. My contention was and still is that the ODM already has secured enough partners to address that particular issue. They have the numbers.
I also contended that it would be political suicide for PNU to try to manipulate things to get a PM from their party when they know that the deal was about bringing ODM into government. By the terms of the deal it would kill the deal if PNU wants both the presidency and the PM's position. As of right now I can assure you the ODM has no problem with the numbers. The serious question is what happens down the line, two years from now when the circumstances have changed. Frankly I don't know but this whole grand coalition is supposed to be temporary.
Two years from now let the chips fall where they may. If the ODM cannot run and sustain a majority alliance in bunge may be they do not deserve the PM position. Politics is about competition. ODM is getting a head start on the PM position. Let them convince Kenyans and their fellow M.P's that they deserve it down the line. It would be dangerous to put into law a monopoly of certain positions for certain political parties.
Simply put, Kamale I do not get your point. Mara you say the deal is such that PNU can take the PM's job and that is a big deal and when we tell you they can't you switch to something else about the legality of the PM's position and when we tell you that is already taking care of you just keep going round in circles.
And for the record, what Muthaura was yapping about has nothing to do with the bills before parliament. Muthaura was speaking on behalf of shell shocked Kibaki diehards who still want to dream nothing really important has happened. So when you come around and tell us ati oh Kilonzo and Wetangula have supported what Muthaura said as correct my answer to you is who cares. You suggest Raila and the ODM should send Salim Lone or Nyong'o to respond and may be we can have a media slugfest. No we won't. The ODM put up a very sober and calm response signed by Prof. Anangwe which has been posted right on this thread. I am trying to tell you the ODM has no interest in sideshows. Muthaura, Mutua and Karua can hold daily press conferences and re-do the Peace Accord a million times. Meanwhile real action is going on elsewhere.
So come clean and let's address your concerns. You are a Kenyan like all of us and if you see something that you think could harm the country and the fragile Peace Accord bring it up and we can take it up among ourselves and with our political colleagues in the thick of things.
adongo
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Post by kamalet on Mar 12, 2008 0:27:42 GMT 3
Dieyiengs,
You should never feel obligated to respond to me!
I cannot fault you for imagining that the deal even its present form is good, and I will not argue with your position. You are entitled to it!!
The only question to is why would such a good deal be open to such diverse interpretation? Consider that!
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