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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 12, 2008 0:51:16 GMT 3
AO Although your post directly above kind of 'rubishes' (for lack of a better word, or may be "renders meaningless" would be it), the Muthaura/mutua Press conference, it still remains just too provocative. My nerves are bad and such loose talk just makes me want to bash the MKM supremacists teeth in, something we all know is not usefull. ODMs calm, measured and erudite response to this bullsh!t spewed by these tribal jingoist is just the tonic that is needed during these tense times. But its obvious the the Nations nerves are frayed and these greenhorns just want to keep poking and proding us. They just wont learn that political hubris alone wont cut it this time.
Give it to them, they have this uncanny ability to perpetually annoy. I hope all and sundry are keeping tabs on these people. Neveragain should be the moto!
What a neferious bunch this is, that simply wont go away.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 12, 2008 1:01:13 GMT 3
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Post by kamalet on Mar 12, 2008 1:04:15 GMT 3
Adongo,
This is not about Kamale and his devious mind.
Frankly if you do not see any opportunity for mischief in the bill, then there is little I can do.
I quoted the Act very clearly about the removal of the PM and this is not by a two thirds majority, but by a majority of all MPs excluding ex-offico members, i.e a majority that can provide a parliamentary leader who can be appointed PM by the president. I am not sure why you would like to think that Sadik and his type are legal minds of Jukwaa.
Kamale
PS. My offer to send you a copy of the Bill still stands.
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Post by mank on Mar 12, 2008 4:38:21 GMT 3
When we talked about the loopholes dotted all over the agreement, guys at jukwaa could not entertain a critical view. Now, if Muthaura is reading from the very agreement that ODM and PNU signed, and which guys at jukwaa could not critique, is it right to claim that anyone is playing a trick? What is Raila's position on what Muthaura said? He and Kibaki know the deal they made, so if any contrary claims are made by significant persons who favour status quo or minimal changes, I would expect him to be the first to invoke the agreement.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 12, 2008 5:13:09 GMT 3
When we talked about the loopholes dotted all over the agreement, guys at jukwaa could not entertain a critical view. Now, if Muthaura is reading from the very agreement that ODM and PNU signed, and which guys at jukwaa could not critique, is it right to claim that anyone is playing a trick? What is Raila's position on what Muthaura said? He and Kibaki know the deal they made, so if any contrary claims are made by significant persons who favour status quo or minimal changes, I would expect him to be the first to invoke the agreement. Did you read the whole thread including the ODM official statement? How about today's papers? If you did, you should have found out that the fiction that the likes of Muthaura are using or would use some obscure loopholes in the deal or the bills to re-write the deal according to their preferences is a stale story. These are the people told the country and the world that ODM should go to court. They said Kuffuor was coming for tea. They did not want to see Kofi Annan set foot in Kenya. They tried the "duly elected" gig. At every turn in the unfolding Kenyan struggle for greater freedoms and social justice these forces have been out witted. The country knows them. They have no support from the population. Even with massive state power they couldn't scare off the population from demanding their rights. The Muthauras are the forces of yesterday. If they didn't screw up them, they would be fine now. I think the attempt by the Muthauras to drag Raila and the ODM leadership into another acrimonious round of debates about the provisions of the deal ODM signed with PNU has been overtaken by events. The task now is for Kenyans to make concrete suggestions on some of the things they would want to see in the series of bills coming up tied to the National Accord. It is everything from ending the circle of violence that is spiraling as we speak, to resettlement of IDPs, to addressing human rights abuses and violations, that new constitution we have been holding our breath for in two harsh decades, TJRC and a million other things. In my mind that is where the battle should shift in the next couple of weeks after the foundation stones are put down in government. And then there are those who say oh those foundation stones from parliament are faulty and if we accept them there could be problems. When we ask them whether that would be problems for the country, they say No. They tell us the problems would only be for ODM which would be cheated! My question to them is why do you care if the ODM you don't like anyways is screwing up. But that a side when we ask them if they have a better foundation plan, they say they have none. In fact they suggest we just go ahead and build something without a foundation. adongo
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Post by theanarchomugikuyu on Mar 12, 2008 14:58:35 GMT 3
adongo, While everybody knows that most of the destruction of property happened in the Rift Valley I don't know where you get the statistics that most or "recorded deaths" took place in Rift Valley. It would be nice if you can share that information. Personally I don't know where the 1,500 deaths came from. (1) Police figures showed that about half of the deaths had occurred in RVP and WP. (2) The IMLU's survey showed that most deaths had occurred in RVP. (cf. tinyurl.com/ywau2c) My point is that even death is not acceptable. It is laughable and I think quite insulting to the victims of police murders and brutality after the elections to say that something is being done because one GSU officer who was caught live on video executing fleeing protesters has been charged. Are you suggesting that Kenyans should have video records of all acts of police murders if they expect them to be prosecuted? This is tiresome nonsense. The cop who shot David K Too was arraigned. It does not appear, as you claim, that the government only arrests or prosecutes those of its officers caught on video. Maina Kiai and KNCHR officials visited the Kisumu mortuaries and counted close to a hundred bodies most of whom were shot from the back. That evidence was backed by medical personnel and survivors. To date I haven't heard a single word of commitment form the Karuas etc indicating they intend to pursue perpetrators of state violence. The loud silence on the matter speaks volumes so we do not need to wait for Martha and co to actually tell is they don't give a hoot about those killed in the opposition zones by state agents and by Mungiki. We know they don't. Perhaps you have trouble comprehending the meaning of the word all in Ms. Karua’s statement? She said, quite clearly, that all perpetrators of violence would face legal processes. Given that state agents have already been arraigned, that promise seems to have been appears to be backed by some action. ODM leaders, on the other hand, secured the release of Kibor, and feted him in public (http://tinyurl.com/32zayl). Attacks, arson and murder continue in Kericho and Laikipia. You cannot be serious in comparing the government's record and that of ODM (and especially ODM's RVP branch). One can appreciate the difficulty the government has of actually admitting they killed people or even that they intend to prosecute the same people they ordered to go and kill others. The least they should do and we are going to fight tooth and nail for it, is to set an independent judicial committee to examine all cases and reports of police and state violence against the citizens after the elections. The police cannot investigate themselves. We know that. We also do not expect the same people who issued shoot to kill orders for specific communities and groups to investigate the same. Those people were only doing what Michuki and co asked them to do. Have you actually read the peace agreements? The parties have already agreed to set up an independent commission of inquiry into the post-lection violence, the commission to be composed of two foreign and one kenyan member. (pdf of the agreement here: tinyurl.com/37zgwb). It is specifically mandated to investigate the 'actions and omissions of state security agencies during the course of the violence'. We all have to agree that a lot harm has been done to a lot of Kenyans and each and everyone of them deserves justice. We cannot afford the hierarchy of victimhood, where some victims are perceived to be more important than others. We saw that during the evacuations when the ODM had to hire buses to ferry Luos and Luhyas fleeing from Central Province. It was as if those folks were not Kenyans and were therefore not the responsibility of Kibaki who had declared himself the president and formed a government. These are the things killing our country and we should address them in all their manifestations. Spare me the nonsense. During January and February, the provincial administration in Central was very good at sheltering the IDPs – the DCs etc provided safe central places for them to sleep; the admin also worked very hard to prevent Mungiki from resurrecting; and to ensure the safety of returning civil servants and students. My family and I evacuated some Luo friends of ours from CP to Nairobi, they have since been able to return, and their children are back in school. Uhuru, together with Gumo, actually went to Tigoni and begged the displaced not to leave Central. The evacuation was certainly botched, and it was a very serious mistake to allow IDPs from RVP and the camps to go directly to CP, because, once there, their tales of atrocity severely inflamed things. (This is probably why there wasn’t serious violence or displacement in CP until rather late in the day). But there is simply no serious argument to the conclusion that the government discriminated against those displaced in CP.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 12, 2008 16:27:18 GMT 3
theanarchomugikuyu
First let me say I will not be dragged into a pissing contest with you over the single item on this thread that interests you. The thread is actually about item three of the Peace Accord, but of course we cannot address any of these items in isolation and that is why the issue of how the perpetrators of electoral violence is handled is very important. Plus I am really sick of impunity which has gone on forever.
There are a few disturbing contradictions in your assertions. I don't know what the arrest of the cop who allegedly killed David Mutai has to do with the mass murders in Kisumu, Kibera and Mathare. You seem to suggest that since a policeman who allegedly killed David Mutai has been arrested that should be sufficient evidence that the police are vigorously pursuing police murderers who perpetrated mayhem in Kisumu and elsewhere. Even the most naive among us will not accept such an excuse for the glaring inaction around police killings.
The fact of the matter is that as we speak there is not a single aspect of investigation going on around the mass killings by cops who of course were following orders. In fact the general assumption from the powers that be is that such a thing never happened. That doesn't surprise anybody. Police will never investigate the sins of their own comrades except in blatant cases like the broad daylight shooting of Mutai witnessed by many and the gruesome execution in Kisumu witnessed by the whole world.
Then you go on to suggest that at any rate those of us complaining about lack of investigations on police killings should sit calmly and wait for the findings of the commission of inquiry set up by the Annan group to investigate post election violence including "actions and omissions of state security agencies during the course of the violence". If you contend that people in Kisumu, Kibera and Mathare should rely on the Annan initiated commission to investigate and may be recommend prosecutions for post electoral violence then why shouldn't everyone else also just wait? Why can't the government then call off all investigations and wait for the commission's finding?
My point all along is that just because there are commissions set by the negotiators including one on post electoral violence and the TJRC etc does not exempt the government from its duty of investigating and prosecuting criminal acts. In fact I suspect the Annan commission of inquiry on violence will hardly engage on any prosecutory investigations. That is not their mandate. In fact if they mix up prosecution duties and unraveling post electoral violence with a view to fixing the problems for the future they will fail in both. They are hardly going to get any evidence if people think what they say may lead to prosecutions. Secondly I doubt they can subpoena anybody including police officers to come to their commission if the individuals refuse to.
That is why the government should on its own institute a independent "JUDICIAL" inquiry. In such a scenario which can be set by parliament people will be forced to come and testify. They will testify under oath and can be charged with a criminal offense (perjury) if they lie. The purpose of such a judicial inquiry would be for the government to accept that their police cannot be investigating their own crimes. That is what is done in many countries. Meanwhile the police would be going on investigating other crimes of electoral violence committed by civilians where we trust the cops can do competent investigations.
If on the other hand we say we are going to forgive these cops after all they were only killing on orders and instead we are just going to collect the information through the Annan committee to help us reform the electoral process, then the same has to apply to everyone else including civilians who committed acts of violence, arson and murder. We cannot have two sets of laws and justice; one for state criminals and the other for civilians. That is the gist of what I am saying.
For me it doesn't matter what Martha Karua and co says, it matters more what they do. And we all know what they are doing, don't we?
Finally let me commend you and your family for helping to evacuate some Luo IDPs from your neighbourhood. There are many people who did many small acts of mercy which saved many lives. That is a good thing. But two things are worrysome. One is the claim that some of these people have already resettled back to work. That may be true in your case, but the general situation is that most displaced persons everywhere are still too terrified to go back. Kenyans are very realistic about their situation.
For example you talk about when Gumo and Uhuru went to Tigoni to ask the IDP's there to go back to their work, nobody listened in fact they were shouted down. The simple fact is that instead of making that suggestion, Gumo and Uhuru might as well have just supplied the IDPs with ropes to hang themselves and their children.
My sense is that the resettlement will only suceed when there is real peace and co-existence between communities. We have not even started that journey as a country yet. May be we will soon.
And then you talk about the PC's and DC's in Central Province stopping Mungiki from resurrecting to resume their beheading duties in the skirmishes. The evidence available suggests otherwise. Mungiki seems to have not only fully resurrected, but also to have been enjoying very cordial relationships with state organs including State House. They just visited Nairobi the other day and were ferried from all over CP. Obviously the DCs and PCs were not very sucessful.
adongo
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Post by nereah on Mar 12, 2008 17:32:10 GMT 3
kudos to adongo and anarchomigukuyu and all the brilliant minds engaged in this sizzling debate. i am ravishing every moment of it. you make me proud guys. pongezi!
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Post by job on Mar 12, 2008 18:44:27 GMT 3
Folks,
On the Bills being debated in parliament.
Could someone please post a RAW (draft) copy (of each) of the FOUR respective BILLs (in entirety) detailing all provisions. (not the Kofi Annan Accord)
I read Harun Mwau's legal concerns (& Kamale's insistent pointers) and would wish to peruse through the ACTUAL BILLS.
Job
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Post by job on Mar 12, 2008 20:49:58 GMT 3
Folks,
WE ARE A LONG WAY OUT OF THE WOODS. THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE.
I think it is important to resume engagement with the AU, EU, Britain, US and other allies to bring to their attention that this thing is not necessarily headed where it was intended to go.
Regarding the power-sharing deal, it seems that discusions on fighting to control the internal security apparatus -especially the police- are actively ON and directly obstructing the whole deal.
The principal NEED to CONTROL the security apparatus informs a lot of recent statements by PNU eg, Karua ("all perpetrators of violence will be prosecuted"), Muthaura ( "the President will delegate duties to the PM") etc etc.
In my view, PNU is stuck in a conundrum of conflicting priority interests, especially between:
(1) the political headache of resettling pro-PNU IDP's, (2) regaining parliamentary muscle recently lost, (3) maintaining monopoly and strangehold on government/public contracts & opportunities, & (4) covering up for recent and past misdeeds (including the electoral robbery and grand corruption scandals of the past).
Without denial, and with all signs already signalled, it is my opinion that PNU still believes in ABSOLUTE CONTROL (NO SHARING) of STATE POWER ( especially internal security) as the surest way to guarantee:
(a) safe return of pro-PNU IDP's, (b) enticement /buying of parliamentary majority, (c) maintainance of monopoly on government contracts and resource allocation mechanism, & (d) cover-up of all tracts and traces of past and recent impropriety (note most Anglo-Leasing type procurement scams were executed under the Internal Security Ministry)
THAT'S JUST THE BOTTOM LINE.
HOWEVER, that premise is flawed in many aspects such as:
(i) Security for pro-PNU IDPs may not come by the heavy presence of guns and police in Rift valley, but through genuine reconciliation of people from both ODM and PNU sides. That means first cooling national political temperatures through realistic power sharing, then addressing agenda number 4 issues ( constitution reforms, land, poverty, inequality etc) which cannot be done without both sides co-operating.
(ii) Attempts at manipulating numbers of ODM MPs, either through MP-assassinations or buy-outs may only sour rather than calm national tension, hostility and unrest.
(iii) It is absurd to even fathom the idea of continuing with yesterdays "business as usual" approach at monopolizing or tribalizing public procurement, contracting and appointments. That will trigger revolts and further instability. Both sides must be brought on board in a close-to-transparent manner. I realistically know that however much the public demands absolute transparency, it may not be achieved yet under the current constitutional, legal and institutional frameworks prevailing.
(iii) neither side, ODM or PNU will pretend to monopolize the handling of cases of improprieties in isolation of the other. It will simply not be possible.
(iv) Last and very important, the international community has effectively (and justifiably) been brought closer to the heart and nerve of the Kenya's governance like never before in our history. Needless to restate, the political settlement idea of REAL power-sharing (with no illusions) is theirs. HOWEVER, the public must bring to their attention in ALL WAYS, these telltale signs of odd developments.
'Zero-ing' in on PNU's misconstrued desire to monopolize the internal security apparatus-especially the police, GSU and AP:
The Kofi Annan accord appreciated the need to reform the police force for a reason. We read through media, allegations of AP involvement in executing electoral/ ballot fraud. We similarly read and saw GSU and police involvement in post-electoral violence and murders. A recent BBC report also points fingers at State House sanctioned recruitment of ethnic militias in complicity with police.
Besides PNU's flawed idea about using police to resettle IDP's, reports by KNHRC give a clue as to why some particular senior folks in PNU are jittery about ceding some control of internal security, (through shared powers) to ODM.
What did the police do to prevent or contain the spontaneous uprisings of mobs protesting flaws in the elections?
The police just engaged in reckless and indiscriminate civilian MURDERS as later witnessed in morgues. The police failed to ARREST mobs that looted, raped and burnt down buildings in an anarchical manner.
What did the police do to PROTECT victims of organized violence in Rift Valley (Uasin Gishu and Eldoret -PNU victims & Nakuru and Naivasha- ODM victims)?
They simply failed to BOTH (a) ARREST organized militia and (b) PROTECT lives and properties of victims.
What was the police response to UNARMED protestors mainly in ODM strongholds including Kibera, Mathare, Kisumu, Kakamega, Migori and Mombasa?
They simply used lethally-excessive force, executing “shoot to kill” orders as corroborated by former Kisumu Police boss, Mrs. Grace Kaindi. Morgues in these towns and KNHRC records, and Kenya Medico-Legal Unit records all testified to this fact.
Was policing evenly implemented during the crisis?
Absolutely not. There was more police guarding Uhuru Park than protecting victims of militias. In the Eldoret area, the police (Kalenjin-friendly) largely stood by and watched as pro-PNU supporters were killed and their houses burnt. Similarly, in Nakuru and Naivasha, when confronted with pro-PNU militia (allegedly Mungiki), the police (PNU-friendly) opted to WATCH as the militias brutally and crudely executed perceived political opponents. All these facts are on KNHRC records.
Even after the end of the first round of violence, was the police response any different in subsequent skirmishes?
Of course not. When later REVENGE-ATTACKS by local militia in pro-PNU areas turned on perceived ODM supporters, killing them, and burning their houses, the police SIMPLY WATCHED.
Another element was deaths attributed to intelligence (police) instigated ethnic-skirmishes at Hamisi-Nandi border, Kericho-Kisii border, Rongo-Kisii border, Maasai-Kisii border, and Maasai-Kericho border. All these were aimed at stirring up internal trouble among ODM friendly communities. At the heart was the police.
Statistics from both the IMLU (which you cite) and KNHRC showed that hundreds of dead bodies had bullet wounds suggesting murder by police.
While theanarchomugikuyu correctly points that the highest number of deaths was recorded in Rift Valley, those numbers were closely followed by Nyanza then Western.
In Rift Valley, the high number of deaths was accounted by cumulative communities inhabiting the province. The heaviest casualties were recorded amongst the Kikuyu, Kalenjin, Luo, Kisii, Luhya and Kamba, in the hands of not only MILITIAS but also POLICE.
Militias murdered Kikuyu in Eldoret, Militias murdered Luo and Luhya in Naivasha, Militias murdered Kikuyu and Kisii in Kericho, Militias murdered Kalenjin, Luo, Luhya and Kikuyu in Nakuru, Counter-militias murdered both Bukusus and Kalenjin in Trans-Nzoia.
BUT ALSO, Police murdered VERY MANY in all these places including Eldoret, Nakuru, Kericho and Trans Nzoia -that’s besides their other murders in Coast, Nairobi, Nyanza, and Western provinces.
Someone in PNU surely wants to create wiggle room to manouvre past their actions at ordering and directing police to kill civilians besides participating in HUGE SECURITY CONTRACT SCANDALS. They want to keep the PRIME MINISTER AWAY from INTERNAL SECURITY based on these fears. MY FRIENDS, THESE FEARS (by a few bad elements) ARE OBSTRUCTING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF REAL POWER-SHARING. The few supremacists may actually kill the deal being worked in parliament.
Job
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Post by kamalet on Mar 12, 2008 23:43:10 GMT 3
Job,
There is a copy circulating in RCBowen which is authentic.
Kamale
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 13, 2008 0:04:58 GMT 3
Job, There is a copy circulating in RCBowen which is authentic. Kamale KamaleCan you pass that copy to Jukwaa readers, please. All I have seen in the newspapers and other avenues are excerpts which we all know. I would love to see the full raw text as Job asked for. I am pretty confident that we are headed in the right direction. adongo
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Post by kamalet on Mar 13, 2008 0:16:58 GMT 3
Adongo,
I am currently abroad and would have made a copy for you from my office. The full text I saw in RCB was in a thread titled 'What did Raila sign...' or something like that.
I will see if I can pull it off from somewhere.
Kamale
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 13, 2008 0:53:47 GMT 3
This is what I have fished out. As a matter of fact this is what we have been addressing for the last week. I believe this is only the constitutional amendment bill. That leaves the other three. But here we go.
An act of parliament to provide for the settlement of the disputes arising from the presidential elections of 2007, formation of a coalition government and establishment of the offices of prime minister, deputy prime ministers and ministers of the government of kenya, their functions and various matters connected with and incidental to the foregoing.
1. This act may be cited as the national accord and reconciliation act 2008.
2. This act shall come into force upon its publication in the kenya gazette which shall not be later than 14 days from the date of assent.
3. (1) there shall be a prime minister of the government of kenya and two deputy prime ministers who shall be appointed by the president in accordance with this section.
(2) the person to be appointed as prime minister shall be an elected member of the national assembly who is the parliamentary leader of -
(a) the political party that has the largest number of members in the national assembly;or
(b) a coalition of political parties in the event that the leader of the political party that has the largest number of members of the national assembly does not command the majority in the national assembly.
(3) each member of the coalition shall nominate one person from the elected members of the national assembly to be appointed a deputy prime minister.
4.(1) the prime minister:
a) shall have authority to coordinate and supervise the execution of the functions and affairs of the government of kenya including those of ministries;
b) may assign any of the coordination responsibilities of his office to the deputy prime ministers, as well as one of them to deputise for him;
c) shall perform such other duties as may be assigned to him by the president or under any written law.
(2) in the formation of the coalition government, the persons to be appointed as ministers and assistant ministers from the political parties that are partners in the coalition other than the president’s party, shall be nominated by the parliamentary leader of the party in the coalition. Thereafter there shall be full consultation with the president on the appointment of all ministers.
(3) the composition of the coalition government shall at all times reflect the relative parliamentary strengths of the respective parties and shall at all times take into account the principle of portfolio balance.
(4) the office of the prime minister and deputy prime minister shall become vacant only if -
a) the holder of the office dies, resigns or ceases to be a member of the national assembly otherwise than by reason of the dissolution of parliament;
or
b) the national assembly passes a resolution which is supported by a majority of all the members of the national assembly excluding the ex-officio members and of which not less than seven days notice has been given declaring that the national assembly has no confidence in the prime minister or deputy prime minister, as the case may be; or
c) the coalition is dissolved.
(5) the removal of any minister nominated by a parliamentary party of the coalition shall be made only after prior consultation and concurrence in writing with the leader of that party.
5. The cabinet shall consist of the president, the vice-president, the prime minister, the two deputy prime ministers and the other ministers.
6. The coalition shall stand dissolved if:
a) the tenth parliament is dissolved; or
b) the coalition parties agree in writing; or c) one coalition partner withdraws from the coalition by a resolution of the highest decision-making organ of that party in writing.
7. The prime minister and deputy prime ministers shall be entitled to such salaries, allowances, benefits, privileges and emoluments as may be approved by parliament from time to time.
8. This act shall cease to apply upon dissolution of the tenth parliament, if the coalition is dissolved, or a new constitution is enacted, whichever is earlier.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 13, 2008 1:48:29 GMT 3
So basically if we get a new constitution that automatically triggers an election.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 13, 2008 3:23:34 GMT 3
So basically if we get a new constitution that automatically triggers an election. PMYou put your finger or should I say your keyboards right on the money. My biggest concern is that the passing of a new constitution will nullify the coalition government and possibly trigger a general election. This to me means the 10th parliament may be hesitant to facilitate the passing of a new constitution because it will generate fresh elections countrywide. However we have to remember that the new constitution just like the Bomas proposal can and may provide for a transition period in which the Grand Coalition government may very well be given a safe passage. It is not a big deal. Suffice is to say all options are on the table as long as there is a national goodwill among the M.Ps on what is good for the country and the Kenyan people. Any other option is doomed to fail and will fail miserably as many others before in the same direction. adongo
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Post by mzee on Mar 13, 2008 10:52:55 GMT 3
So basically if we get a new constitution that automatically triggers an election. PM,I thought this was the case but the wording of the above document does not indicate anything in that direction. It only says that "the coalition shall stand dissolved if......". I guess that this is not equivalent to a new election even though it would be the only logical step to end the crisis which might follow.
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Post by eosir on Mar 13, 2008 13:22:27 GMT 3
Time is of the essence! The reform 'train' will be impossible to STOP once the power sharing bill sails through Parliament!
Kenyans will look back many years from now and be glad that sacrifices were made to bring about change. Believe me, the days of the so called supremacists are numbered! Theirs are the last kicks of a dying horse! But don't be surprised if the same start calling for reforms a few years from now. This will happen when they realise that MK's term is coming to an end.
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Post by mzee on Mar 13, 2008 14:40:08 GMT 3
Time is of the essence! The reform 'train' will be impossible to STOP once the power sharing bill sails through Parliament! Kenyans will look back many years from now and be glad that sacrifices were made to bring about change. Believe me, the days of the so called supremacists are numbered! Theirs are the last kicks of a dying horse! But don't be surprised if the same start calling for reforms a few years from now. This will happen when they realise that MK's term is coming to an end. Their days might be over but do not underestimate their ability to fight to the end. So while we are at it, its important to always be on the lookout for these thieves and robbers.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 13, 2008 16:11:06 GMT 3
Lets not pretend otherwise Passage of reform, comprehensive reforms, will be tough, thats number one.
Number two, this arangement R refers t as cohabitation is an anathema to both sides. They went into this marriage under the barrel of the gun. R had to concede his claim to power, while the sloth kegs had to concede some power and authority. He hates it, R hates it, and so do their respective supporters.
Once the ECK is reconstituted and some time has passed, I dont think that a new constitution is a mandatory prereqisuite for an election to be triggerred. Fatigue accruing from the battles with the hardline MKM and frayed nerves and frustration will just make ODM throw their hands up in the air and call for an election.
The harmonization of the decentralized, ODM majimbo economic plan and the PNU 'VISION 2030' crafted in haste, is not a viable plan, and this will make elements of boht sides want a mandate of sorts.
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Post by mzee on Mar 13, 2008 16:46:35 GMT 3
Lets not pretend otherwise Passage of reform, comprehensive reforms, will be tough, thats number one. Number two, this arangement R refers t as cohabitation is an anathema to both sides. They went into this marriage under the barrel of the gun. R had to concede his claim to power, while the sloth kegs had to concede some power and authority. He hates it, R hates it, and so do their respective supporters. Once the ECK is reconstituted and some time has passed, I dont think that a new constitution is a mandatory prereqisuite for an election to be triggerred. Fatigue accruing from the battles with the hardline MKM and frayed nerves and frustration will just make ODM throw their hands up in the air and call for an election. The harmonization of the decentralized, ODM majimbo economic plan and the PNU 'VISION 2030' crafted in haste, is not a viable plan, and this will make elements of boht sides want a mandate of sorts. ODM`s equity plan is one thing which shall save our country. The only problem is that MKM will try rubbishing or even killing it. Last time it was Kiraitu leading the mutilation of the draft constitution and now it will be Karua. I expect to see the re-emergence of pro-wako and pro Bomas draft axis.
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Post by afrigun on Mar 13, 2008 20:15:18 GMT 3
This is what I have fished out. As a matter of fact this is what we have been addressing for the last week. I believe this is only the constitutional amendment bill. That leaves the other three. But here we go. An act of parliament to provide for the settlement of the disputes arising from the presidential elections of 2007, formation of a coalition government and establishment of the offices of prime minister, deputy prime ministers and ministers of the government of kenya, their functions and various matters connected with and incidental to the foregoing.1. This act may be cited as the national accord and reconciliation act 2008. 2. This act shall come into force upon its publication in the kenya gazette which shall not be later than 14 days from the date of assent. 3. (1) there shall be a prime minister of the government of kenya and two deputy prime ministers who shall be appointed by the president in accordance with this section.
(2) the person to be appointed as prime minister shall be an elected member of the national assembly who is the parliamentary leader of -
(a) the political party that has the largest number of members in the national assembly;or
(b) a coalition of political parties in the event that the leader of the political party that has the largest number of members of the national assembly does not command the majority in the national assembly.
(3) each member of the coalition shall nominate one person from the elected members of the national assembly to be appointed a deputy prime minister.4.(1) the prime minister: a) shall have authority to coordinate and supervise the execution of the functions and affairs of the government of kenya including those of ministries;b) may assign any of the coordination responsibilities of his office to the deputy prime ministers, as well as one of them to deputise for him;c) shall perform such other duties as may be assigned to him by the president or under any written law.(2) in the formation of the coalition government, the persons to be appointed as ministers and assistant ministers from the political parties that are partners in the coalition other than the president’s party, shall be nominated by the parliamentary leader of the party in the coalition. Thereafter there shall be full consultation with the president on the appointment of all ministers.
(3) the composition of the coalition government shall at all times reflect the relative parliamentary strengths of the respective parties and shall at all times take into account the principle of portfolio balance. (4) the office of the prime minister and deputy prime minister shall become vacant only if - a) the holder of the office dies, resigns or ceases to be a member of the national assembly otherwise than by reason of the dissolution of parliament;or b) the national assembly passes a resolution which is supported by a majority of all the members of the national assembly excluding the ex-officio members and of which not less than seven days notice has been given declaring that the national assembly has no confidence in the prime minister or deputy prime minister, as the case may be;or c) the coalition is dissolved. (5) the removal of any minister nominated by a parliamentary party of the coalition shall be made only after prior consultation and concurrence in writing with the leader of that party.5. The cabinet shall consist of the president, the vice-president, the prime minister, the two deputy prime ministers and the other ministers.8. This act shall cease to apply upon dissolution of the tenth parliament, if the coalition is dissolved, or a new constitution is enacted, whichever is earlier.Assuming that this is the correct rendition of the actual bill pending in parliament, then i have to say that i fully understand the tumbo moto affecting Muthaura, Karua and other PNUists, though i doubt, from the way they are arguing, if even they have fully understood the effect and intent of the Bill. One thing that is clear from the Bill is that there shall be an office of prime minister and two deputies created, and the mode of their appointment and their functions are set out in the Bill. The PM shall supervise and coordinate the functions of government, which simply means that he shall be in charge. The other things is that there is supposed to be a coalition government, although apart from the prime ministers party (or coalition of parties), the Bil is absolutely silent on whether the presidents party ie PNU, SHALL be part of that coaltion. Note also that the oft repeated 50-50 sharing of cabinet, government, power or whatever appeaars nowhere in the Act. it cannot be assumed or inferred, from the way the bill is drawn, that PNU is intended to be party to the coalition governemnt. if you doubt this, you only have to look at kamales arguments on the subject. the provisions of section 4 (2) and (3) that Do not of necessity confirm that PNU or even the presidents party, whichever it is, shall be part of government or cabinet. My reading is that the leaders of the coalition parties forming the majority in parliament and thus producing the PM, shall nominate their members for ministerial posts, who are then appointed in consultation with the president. this excludes instances where the Presidents party is part of the coalition, in which case the implication is that the president shall nominate his ministers. when you look critically at the provisions above, you get to understand why ODM accepted it, and PNU is having second thoughts. the fact is that in one fell stroke, the management of this country shall be passed over to the party with the majority in parliament and its leader shall be the de facto ruler of the country. In short, we have the Westminster model of government coming soon. if in doubt, look at tha examples ODM are always giving about where pariamentary democracies and coalitions are in place. Having said all that, however, i doubt if the Bill shall be passed in its present form once the reality of its implications fully hit the PNUists, namely, that they are headed to being the official oppostion.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 13, 2008 20:42:04 GMT 3
Afrigun I suppose there are positions that will be limited with THIS CURRENT scenario and and hence the make up of the Govt just because the thief in chief 'was first' when it came to the formation of the Govt. Also it depends on what the final adopted constitution will say about the nature of the executive. Will we gothe French model where the President is a powerful head of state but leaves the day to day running of the cabinet to the PM, or the India/Israel style, where the PM is actually calls the shots?
But once either style of Govt is embedded in the constitution then we have the "normal" parliamentary democracy, where a single party is incharge of producing the cabinet (UK/style) or coalition of parties (Israeli style) will then form the Govt. Obvoiusly, this then means that that theoretically, a President can come from a loosing party following the direct presidential vote, while his party is in the minority in parliament. He/She will have minimal input as to who sits in the cabinet in a fully fledged parliamentary system entrenched in the constitution. In the French model I suppose the President will have a lot of say as to who sits as he may the veto the cabinet appointments?
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 13, 2008 21:27:10 GMT 3
kudos to adongo and anarchomigukuyu and all the brilliant minds engaged in this sizzling debate. i am ravishing every moment of it. you make me proud guys. pongezi! nereahThanks for your nice remarks regarding the Jukwaa folks. It is a pretty impressive group of people. They seem to have the heart beat of the nation right at their finger tips and their actions. I am very proud of all Jukwaa folks even the ones I often disgree with. afrigunYou are 100% correct. This bill changes the political landscape in a very significant way. The so-called two centres of power will be a reality after the bill is passed. Remember yesterday the PNU leaflet that was thrown out was warning about the dangers of two centres of power. The Prime Minister of Kenya once this bill is passed will have very real powers to propel cabinet policy and initiatives, to ensure that each and every ministry is held accountable to Kenyans through reports and answers to questions in the floor of the National Assembly. What I don't understand is what the likes of Muthaura and Thuo ( Michuki mouthpiece) hope to achieve with the kind of petty mischief they are engaging in. First of all they are not asking the PNU M.P's to vote against the bill. So if they can't stop the bill what else can they do. And secondly the hierarchy debate they are desperate about is practically irrelevant to Kenyans. We have two centres of power and each centre has its own hierarchy. The administrative lineage is of no consequence unless the president dies in office. That tells me the only option available to those opposed to the deal is to provoke some kind of a confrontation and infighting between the two sides that could actually lead to the bills being withdrawn. Otherwise they are dead in the water. This brings me to some of the arguments advanced here by folks like Kamale who are insisting that the bills should be withdrawn because they are defective. I find that curious to put it mildly. I have already said that the ODM has a responsibility to build a coalition with some of the smaller parties in Parliament to work with them and to earn their respect and loyalty over time. So I have no problem. The ODM will have a majority coalition in parliament for a long time. From the look so it, if the ODM plays their cards right, keep united and show Kenyans that they can deliver on services and initiatives that help the ordinary citizens they can almost be assured that they will have the PM's office for a long time to come. Their battle in future will be to get the presidency as well but that is another story. In terms of the 50:50 deal, you are right it is not spelled out in the bill before parliament. Instead they are talking about representation in government based on their numbers in parliament. That is not bad for ODM. They do have the 50% presence in parliament and if they work well they will only get better and more dominating in parliament. The big deal as folks like Mzee1 and PM have said is the fight for comprehensive constitutional reforms. PNU is going to use the "kitchen sink strategy" to quote our good friend Barack Obama. They are going to come to it not looking for what is good for the country but rather what they can do to regain lost ground. The two key items are still going to be majimbo, which we all support and the imperial presidency. Luckily the imperial presidency element is already being tamed but the majimbo issue is going to be emotional, it is going to tense and down to the wire but the the will of the majority will prevail. The ODM has its work cut out for them on the constitutional front. adongo
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 13, 2008 23:44:40 GMT 3
This is interesting and actually encouraging. At some point mutual respect and trust between the ODM team and PNU is going to be necessary to move the country forward. A lot of these people have worked together in far more dangerous environments than they have today. I think it is time to increase the positive while being cautiously optimistic that our country is on the verge of re-inventing itself in a direction that could help reduce tribal chauvinism, the single biggest culprit for th mess we have in Kenya today. Here it is "My mother is a Luo, my father a Suba and my husband a Zulu. What tribe would my child be when I have it?" she asked.www.eastandard.net/news/?id=1143983271&cid=4
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