|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Feb 2, 2006 0:41:45 GMT 3
I am pretty sure some people are asking if some evil Malian spiked my ginger/hibiscus drink.
My views on the misadventures of NAK are well known and prolifically recorded on this very forum.
However, in the face of imperialist machinations against a popularly elected government, I will take sides, consistent with my anti-imperialist mind set.
If you abhorred the United States aggression and invasion of Iraq to topple the noxious Saddam using the regime change credo, then perhaps you understand where I am coming from.
Make no mistake:
I firmly believe that Kibaki and NAK must go.
Where I differ with the Born in Kenya Union Jack flag wavers is the PROCESS.
The UK has no business OVERTHROWING a legitimately and popularly elected government- leave that task to the Kenyan wananchi.
Accordingly, I DENOUNCE all those who are chortling as the West moves full throttle to choke to death the Kibaki regime.
It is time for all progressive, patriotic and anti-imperialist Kenyans to stand up against the regime change agenda of the G-8.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya
|
|
|
Post by Daktari wa makazi on Feb 2, 2006 3:20:55 GMT 3
Oloo, I saw your piece and had my stomach churn. The neanderthals who fleeced the country’s treasury do not deserve my support. Kibaki and Mwiraria and the whole lot need to tell us the truth and speak before they are spoken to. Resignations and public tears, almost everyone agrees, are a sign of the despair at the prospects of ever breaking into normality. There should never be a normal life for public purse looters. What we need to do is to arrest Kibaki and his thieving comrades and arraign them before a Court of Law. I have no time defending thieves and will never do such a thing.
I agree with you UK should not topple Kibaki because simply we cannot rely on the foreigners to topple Kibaki: we must do it ourselves. However, I say, if they help in the process, I see no reason not to welcome the assistance. Even though I agree with you it should not be their business as they cannot be relied on to topple Kibaki, I think foreigners may only play a preferential role.
We know Kibaki is wounded but he is not done with yet.
So now what happens? Our President is up to his neck in corruption. His attorney-general appears to have changed his advice about prosecuting corrupt officials and is now silent as church mice. Seldom has a President been so exposed and remained in office. Surely Kibaki will fall? Not by himself, he won’t. If we have learnt anything about him over the past few months, it is that he would rather stroll naked round downtown Nairobi than resign before he has to. Kibaki and his theiving gang have everything to gain by sweating it out.
In many ways, the strength of the case against Kibaki has been an advantage to him: our tendency is to assume that he is so badly wounded that all we need to do is to sit back and watch him bleed to death.
We also know that our MPs are weak, that the civil service remains in the grip of the tribal allegiances and that the press is run by multi-millionaries, whose single purpose is to make this a better world for multi-millionaires. People like Aga Khan who owns the Nation may not be relied on. Yet somehow, we continue to trust that all these twisted instruments will deliver us from evil, that the sound chaps in the system will ultimately do the decent thing. How we reconcile our understanding with our belief is a mystery, but this mystery is a perennial feature of Kenyans political life. As a result, we now wait for foreigners to bring Kibaki down. We could wait forever.
In other words, nothing happens now, unless we get off our butts and make it happen. This means abandoning that very African habit of expecting someone else to act on our behalf. Worse still, it means recognising that, for all the complexities and evasions of a modern political system, the motive force of politics is still the people, and the people remain responsible for what is done in their name.
The formula for making things happen is simple and has never changed. If you wish to alter a policy or depose a President between elections, you must take to the streets. Simply, if you want something done properly, do it yourself.
Direct action, in other words, works. But it works more consistently than anything else we do. What we must not do, as Kenyans so often do, everyone waited for everyone else to act. We can surely take a day or two off work to bring down a government. And it is not just because direct action works that we should try it. If Kibaki goes, it should be our victory, the people’s victory. The people must be seen to have done it.
If we depose Kibaki through direct action, someone almost as bad will doubtless succeed him, but the political context in which that someone operates will have changed. He will be forced to govern with one eye on the people, and to demonstrate that his policies differ from those of his predecessor. And the issue he would be obliged to address first is Kenya’s relationship with its people. To become a civilised, moderate, responsible nation, in other words, we must first become a nation of extremists.
Your fear of foreigners’ toppling Kibaki may not materialise because the major participation must come from the Kenyan masses and the most effect participation is through mass action.
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Feb 2, 2006 4:06:46 GMT 3
Sadik,
I agree with your sentiments. The UK government is NOT OVERTHROWING KIBAKI. Kibaki has overthrown himself. By the way, if I'm under attack by a crazed maniac like Kibaki, I don't give a hoot whether the helping hand (my salvation) comes from the West. If Oloo's fears were legitimate, he, Adongo and I would never have sough refuge in Canada. We have to be able to sort out these goats, sheep, wakora BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY.
Of course, we must be vigilant. I certainly think that Oloo's fears are a bit off...
[unedited]
-Miguna-
|
|
|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Feb 2, 2006 13:20:32 GMT 3
Sadik, I agree with your sentiments. The UK government is NOT OVERTHROWING KIBAKI. Kibaki has overthrown himself. By the way, if I'm under attack by a crazed maniac like Kibaki, I don't give a hoot whether the helping hand (my salvation) comes from the West. If Oloo's fears were legitimate, he, Adongo and I would never have sough refuge in Canada. We have to be able to sort out these goats, sheep, wakora BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY. Of course, we must be vigilant. I certainly think that Oloo's fears are a bit off... [unedited] -Miguna- Miguna: I am writing a longer piece on this. All I wanted to do here is to comment briefly on your assertion that if my "fears were legitimate" then Adongo, myself and yourself would never have sought refuge in Canada and your invocation of Malcolm X's famous "By Any Means Necessary" dictum. You are mixing up things. The United States was offering asylum to Iraqis even as it finalized its invasion plans to topple Saddam. Secondly, I do not remember SEEKING refuge in Canada. By which I mean I did NOT specifically set out to seek refuge in Canada. I crossed the border into neighbouring Tanzania and that is where I wanted to be actually. I arrived in Toronto when Canada offered to take in refugees as a third country of resettlement after insecurity in Tanzania. My subsequent status in Canada did not blind me to the close ties that this country had with her southern neighbour. In any case, having watched the Who Gets In? documentary and being an immigration lawyer yourself, you will agree with me that Canada's refugee and immigration policies are hardly altruistic. Now to your "By Any Means Necessary" exhortation. People are fond of quoting that phrase by Malcolm X without always interrogating its meaning. I for one, do NOT believe in the phrase "By Any Means Necessary." For instance I do not believe in coup de tats, political assassinations or even more ominously, imperialist regime change to effect radical transformation. In effect one can argue that these means are a guarantee that any change if it happens will be cosmetic and perhaps even ephemeral. Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Feb 2, 2006 18:51:22 GMT 3
Oloo,
I will wait to see your "larger response." However, there are a few things that I must correct.
First, I never said, and do not believe, that Canada's immigration policies are "altruistic." But you have to agree with me that no one forced you or me into the planes that brought us to Canada. No one forced us to complete and sign those Canadian Immigration forms, firstly giving us Minister's Permits to enter Canada "urgently", and in my case, without even a passport issued by Kenya [mine had been withdrawn]; and secondly "granting" our respective "status". I'm not sure whether you chose the Charles Roach route [sorry readers, this is an in-house secret].
Like you, I also never "chose" Canada. I had chosen either TZ or Zimbabwe. The fact is, neither country accepted me. TZ knew I'd chosen it. Zimbabwe may not have been aware of my choice.
I'm not sure whether anyone literally stopped you from going to Zambia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, etc. But that is beside the point. No one put a gun to our heads and told us to come to Canada. I'm not concerned about the larger question on "choice" in view of the brutal persecution we had both faced.
Also, some of us have stayed here for very long due to various reasons even though Kenya is no longer under the "same" conditions that warranted our flight. These are facts.
All I'm saying is that, we must be honest with ourselves. You recall the letter we wrote to Paul Martin over the "aid" to Kenya and other things? Well, the Canadian and US policies on Kenya are very similar, with a few limited exceptions. Although Canada has not actively participated in imperialist ventures by other Western states, Canada is very much part of the bigger global "imperialist system" if you will. Yet, we have taken "good" and "positive" things from it, and rejected "bad" and "negative" ones.
I understand exactly what I meant when I said "By All Means Necessary." I did not say "By ANY Means Necessary." The former is mine. The latter is Malcolm X's. This is a distinction with a difference.
Oloo, you know my position on Western Imperialism. So, let us not recycle our views here. The campaigns and agitations by Kenyans from all walks of life against the lootings and brutalities of the regime in Nairobi HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMPERIALISM [Where such periferal imperialism exists, it is firstly unconnected to the current fight by Kenyans and secondly quite insignificant to preoccupy us]. We have to be careful and avoid being seen as paranoid.
No one is arguing that we should participate in any coups de tats (although I must say that I certainly supported Sankara's, Jerry Rawlings', Museveni's and Chavez's coups, take overs and/or attempted coups.) I also support how Castro took over government.
Whether these are called "revolutions," coups, take overs, overthrows, etc, don't matter. The fact is, a regime and system of government was FORCEFULLY changed.
Notwithstanding the contradictions that resulted from some of these "takeovers;" I still support the methods these "revolutionaries" used to take power. Obviously one can quibble and assert that these were "revolutions" and and not "takeovers", "overthrows"; or "coups." Well, well, let's see...
In fact, let me be honest with you, I support violent popular take overs of illegitimate, authoritarian and brutal regimes everywhere by local people against their oppressors, whether the oppresors are local or not do not matter to me. What matters is that the yoke of oppression and misrule has been removed - by all means necessary.
And when such governments, regimes, oppressors are being removed by their own people - even by force of arms - I don't care where those arms are manufactured! The operative words here is "removal or overthrow of illegitimate regimes."
There is a big difference between what I am saying and the US imperialist schemes in Iraq, for example [where, firstly, the intervention was illegal and arbitrary; the intervention was not invited by the Iraqis; the intervention is for pure and express American imperialist interests only]. That's not the situation in Kenya. You have to be more detailed and explicit here to convince me that the banning of Murungaru from traveling to the UK and US is imperialist motivated. Obviously, one can quibble as to why this was not done sooner, perhaps when Moi and Kenyatta were in power. That is neither here nor there. After all, the regime in both Washington, DC and the White Hall, were not and are not the same...
I'm not going to argue with you about these in detail here.
However, the FACT is: The UK and US governments ARE NOT REMOVING OR OVERTHROWING KIBAKI'S GOVERNMENT. NEITHER ARE KENYANS; KIBAKI DID THAT HIMSELF!
Both governments are RIGHT (in my view) in trying to hold the corrupt, inept and undemoctratic government in Nairobi to account.
The removal of the Kibaki government (even by force) will be up to Kenyans. If Kenyans ask for and receive help from others, so be it. You will be, of course, entitled to challenge, caution and even oppose those trying to overthrow the government [as you are doing here, if indeed there is a plan to overthrow it, which I think is untrue], if in fact the government would not have OVERTHROWN ITSELF already.
I consider your claims alarmist, irresponsible and frankly quite shocking.
At this rate my brother, one could very well cut off his nose to despise his face!
This is not the time to speak of coups de tats, in my considered view. Such reckless talk will only give Kibaki the excuse to do worse than we have seen. We saw what happened in Kisumu and Mombasa during the referendum campagns...With this talk of coups, well, please be my guest...
[unedited]
-Miguna-
PS: What we are seeing is nothing near what the CIA did to Nkrumah. It mirrors what you and I did to Moi.
|
|
|
Post by abdulmote on Feb 2, 2006 19:39:33 GMT 3
Onyango! For the first time since I got to know you, I genuinely feel scared of your thoughts. Better come clean and quick about this. Certainly not an ideal thought to use for suspense!
It feels as if your drink was more than spiked!
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Feb 2, 2006 19:46:30 GMT 3
I The UK has no business OVERTHROWING a legitimately and popularly elected government- leave that task to the Kenyan wananchi.
Accordingly, I DENOUNCE all those who are chortling as the West moves full throttle to choke to death the Kibaki regime.
It is time for all progressive, patriotic and anti-imperialist Kenyans to stand up against the regime change agenda of the G-8.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya Oloo: I thought that Kibaki was "popularly" elected through "deception" and subterfuge. Have we forgotten the "andu aitu" assertions? What is wrong with a regime change?
|
|
|
Post by jarabuon on Feb 3, 2006 2:03:19 GMT 3
This is my first post on this board and i totally agree with Oloo on this one. It is time defend kenya and its fledgling democratic and rule of law processes. I urge patience from all patriotic kenyans as we establish a precedence on how to legally and democratically deal with cases of corruption in high places. Mwiraria for all his perceived ills has set a wonderful example for future generations of kenyans. Let us now see how this issue will be dealt with by the judiciary. coups are not the correct way to go, because if this same situation happens again in the future, its solution will be yet another coup and power struggles, things that distract kenyans from fighting the real enemy, poverty.
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Feb 3, 2006 6:35:55 GMT 3
Miguna i must admit your writing style combined with your grasp of facts be they historical, legal or current is a notch above ALL commentators both local and abroad.
I concur with you on this 100% and I find Bwana Oloo's post bordering of the ludicrous. This is a rare faux pas for him. Its illogical and makes no sense.
Kick-back1 is going down as a result of his own mischief and incompetence. Bush and Blair have nothing to do with any of Kick-back1's current travails.
|
|
|
Post by johns on Feb 3, 2006 8:41:30 GMT 3
OLOO,
Must this yoke stay on our necks because the not politically correct are the ones who have noticed it?
|
|
|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Feb 3, 2006 9:11:14 GMT 3
i still stand my ground. there is a reason why i will never ever win a popularity contest- i will always speak my mind, no matter how ludicrous, shocking, alarmist, scary, silly or stupid it sounds.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya
|
|
|
Post by maina on Feb 3, 2006 9:15:01 GMT 3
Habari Oloo?
Could you please explain yourself......I never imagined you to argue this way! What is surely wrong with the status quo?
Maina
-unedited-
|
|
|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Feb 3, 2006 9:15:32 GMT 3
Miguna i must admit your writing style combined with your grasp of facts be they historical, legal or current is a notch above ALL commentators both local and abroad. I concur with you on this 100% and I find Bwana Oloo's post bordering of the ludicrous. This is a rare faux pas for him. Its illogical and makes no sense. Kick-back1 is going down as a result of his own mischief and incompetence. Bush and Blair have nothing to do with any of Kick-back1's current travails. personally i value ALL the contributions on this board. we all have different perspectives to contribute, all in our unique styles. however, being products of kenya's cut throat pyramid educational system where there must be a number one and a number last, i am not surprised to see you dishing out accolades and barbs... all the best. oo nbi
|
|
|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Feb 3, 2006 9:20:44 GMT 3
Oloo: I thought that Kibaki was "popularly" elected through "deception" and subterfuge. Have we forgotten the aitu aindu assertions? What is wrong with a regime change? Miguna:I wonder what you are talking about. It is a fact that Mwai Kibaki was elected genuinely with over 60% of the vote on December 27, 2002.
It is also a fact that soon after that the andu aitu cabal usurped that huge democratic mandate to impose a parochial corruption tainted regime. Twisting facts to "score points" was something I thought you were above jathurwa. oo nbi
|
|
|
Post by abdulmote on Feb 3, 2006 11:00:15 GMT 3
"It is a fact that Mwai Kibaki was elected genuinely with over 60% of the vote on December 27, 2002.
It is also a fact that soon after that the andu aitu cabal usurped that huge democratic mandate to impose a parochial corruption tainted regime." OO.
David,
You are pushing this too far! Suddenly I find myself against a person who's views I have always respected. What a shocker to me my friend!
No body has any qualms about Kibaki to have won the presidential election by a satisfying majority. But it is also a fact that Kibaki is the leading figure among those who have been rapping our country in one form or another for the last three years and some months on top!! How pathetic! I don't even have to remind you this and go any furher at this stage! I am certainly not going to enjoy this!
But as you join those who strive to 'protect' Kibaki in one form or another, innocently out of naivety or deliberately out of vested interests, you must also realise that you are in fact sparking enhanced resistance against your goodself and your standing as we know it, and this I have no doubt! Suddenly Onyango is getting clever. Now he thinks he can play tricks on us, and we, we shall just be watching and clapping our palms rapidly and loudly as we cheer his abilities.
OK, may be you are doing this for fun! That is a possibility. But come on man! This is no time to make such fun, neither is it time to make a 'Killing'!
And why do I say so?
Onyango bwana, this is unbelievable!
Ati you have nothing to say at this very critical stage on our mother Kenya, but can only divert all your energies on worrying about who is 'assisting' wanaKenya on legitimately pressurising Kibaki? Soon it seems you have forgotten that it was akina Hempstone who played a very critical part towards our so called multi party democracy!
Lakini hold on mate! I am not about to dismiss your "communist" views hidden behind your thinking, no I am not. Knowing you and your style of thinking, you will certainly entertain your thoughts with countering in your defence, by proclaiming to wage the 'forgotten war against the 'Imperialist forces', as classified by 'your' "communist", Marxist, Leninist theories! Don't even bother if that be the case!
Onyango, simply put, I cannot see any justification on your devoting such enrgies as yours, in such a manner and in such a time, instead of solely committing your abilities, your talents and your courage towards finding sober solutions to the crises facing the nation right now. Certainly what your doing is beyond my immediate capacity of understanding!
Tell me David, what is happening? Your are certainly responsible for any negative speculation you may generate if that be the case, but I find it very difficult to see any sense at all in your latest bravado!
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Feb 3, 2006 16:00:52 GMT 3
" OK, may be you are doing this for fun! That is a possibility. But come on man! This is no time to make such fun, neither is it time to make a 'Killing'!
And why do I say so?
Onyango bwana, this is unbelievable!
Ati you have nothing to say at this very critical stage on our mother Kenya, but can only divert all your energies on worrying about who is 'assisting' wanaKenya on legitimately pressurising Kibaki? Soon it seems you have forgotten that it was akina Hempstone who played a very critical part towards our so called multi party democracy!
Lakini hold on mate! I am not about to dismiss your "communist" views hidden behind your thinking, no I am not. Knowing you and your style of thinking, you will certainly entertain your thoughts with countering in your defence, by proclaiming to wage the 'forgotten war against the 'Imperialist forces', as classified by 'your' "communist", Marxist, Leninist theories! Don't even bother if that be the case!
Onyango, simply put, I cannot see any justification on your devoting such enrgies as yours, in such a manner and in such a time, instead of solely committing your abilities, your talents and your courage towards finding sober solutions to the crises facing the nation right now. Certainly what your doing is beyond my immediate capacity of understanding!
Why have people failed to realise the trickery in the ALF saga-reincarnated? Githongo has not told us anything new that we did not know in 2004! I think what Oloo is suggesting, ( and from what I gather he is right), this noise we all hear is no longer about Kibaki the incompetent. It is so high level that not many Kenyans are seeing the real agenda in the present campaign. Because the our view of the 'struggle for liberation from the MKM cabal' is so narrow, we refuse to see the bigger picture Oloo is displaying, but instead are stuck on this KIBAKI MUST GO mantra! We glorify the second coming of Githongo to aid us etc. I do not think Oloo was on some drug taking spree in Mali that he is thinking this way without a point! Here are some of the pointers as to why this thing is nothing about politics: 1. Why was the Nation chosen as the medium to leak the Githongo dossier? 2. Why would the Nation be so bold as to do a challenge on Kibaki and his government - something they have not done in the last 3 years? 3. Whoever gave the story in the Nation must have thought it through that such a story in the Nation would be more credible that would be in the Standard. 4. Why would Kiboro run the story so boldly.....could the instructions have come from somewhere near the French capital? 5. Is this story being instigated for the benefit of Kenyans or for other people's benefit? 6. Why do people think that whoever wants Kibaki out wants to do it for Kenyans and not themselves? I think people need to give Oloo's theory a serious look again before condemning him. I am convinced that in this one case, it is Kenya and its sovereignite that is under siege as opposed just Kibaki - the president!
|
|
|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Feb 3, 2006 16:38:05 GMT 3
please do not rush to judgment.
oo nbi
|
|
|
Post by aeichener on Feb 3, 2006 17:05:39 GMT 3
Kamalet, which "sovereignty"? Maybe Kenya will eventually gain it through these struggles - that would be good.
A.
|
|
|
Post by roughrider on Feb 3, 2006 17:24:04 GMT 3
However, in the face of imperialist machinations against a popularly elected government, I will take sides, consistent with my anti-imperialist mind set. Please provide evidence to back these claims – of imperialist machinations against a popularly elected government - lest we dismiss them as wild, baseless allegations. You are of course aware that if a lesser mortal made these allegations he would be laughed out of town. But you are Onyango Oloo with a certain reputation and we try to listen to what you say. Don’t put your integrity and reputation so recklessly on the line We must make a clear distinction between friendly solidarity of foreign governments with the Kenyan people and the concept of imperialism; otherwise we shall wallow in the irrational phobia of imaginary imperialist plots at every turn. (Indeed I have reason to believe that a lethal dose of government inspired propaganda manufactured by Mutahi Ngunyi et al may be to blame for the twisted views that are coming up) In Rwanda for example, and perhaps watching Hotel Rwanda will drive this point home, the total abdication of the international community allowed an ethnic conflagration that claimed millions. In apartheid South Africa, friendly countries played important roles in sustaining pressure and providing refuge for freedom fighters. I fully support any country that acts in solidarity with the Kenyan people’s fight against corruption and mis-governance. The Onyango Oloo who used to write lengthy missives to Prime Ministers of foreign governments on the situation in Kenya understood the ties that bind humanity accross countries and how international solidarity and pressure is important. Prehaps he would even remember that Kenya is a signatory to the cnternational convention on anti corruption. In Kenyan courts today, there are people answering various charges relating to the Anglo Leasing scam and on the face of it John Githongo has provided what appears to be ‘incontrovertible' material evidence showing Kibaki and his ministers abused office, tolerated corruption and obstructed justice. Kenyans are angry and have demanded action. Kenyans are driving the pressure for radical regime change. If there is an ‘imperialist agenda’ somewhere, then I daresay it coincides perfectly with the wishes of Kenyans. I find it rather exasperating this senseless paranoia against imaginary imperialistic forces – especially so when it comes from someone like Onyango Oloo. The real ghost haunting Kenya is Anglo Leasing.
|
|
|
Post by abdulmote on Feb 3, 2006 17:27:05 GMT 3
"Is this story being instigated for the benefit of Kenyans or for other people's benefit? 6. Why do people think that whoever wants Kibaki out wants to do it for Kenyans and not themselves?
I think people need to give Oloo's theory a serious look again before condemning him. I am convinced that in this one case, it is Kenya and its sovereignite that is under siege as opposed just Kibaki - the president!" --Kamale
Unh Unh! Kamale. Some of us are NOT 'foolish' enough to even imagine that the Westerners are by any chance genuinely helping us simply for our own sake! Absolute nonsense!
The fact is, the so called 'Empirialist forces' have always been over our shoulders from time immemorial! If anything at all, when can you suggest that they were not?
Yes it is true and right to observe that these guys are doing what they are doing simply because there may be some selfish strategies about about them. But we should also as a matter of fact, be very clear of the parallel existence of rape and squander taking as being led by Mwai wa Kibaki against our republic!
In saying that, I think it is even more dangerous to try and 'hide behind the cover' of empirialists, whilst 'cleverly' warning us of the impending dangers as posed by the same, as an alternative from focussing on the robbery and destruction by one of our own! That categorically does not wash and will never wash!
You know what? I would have thought by now we are all smart enough to appreciate that the Mabeberus have been with us, within us, and will be in between us for a long time to come. But what really alarms me, is this suggestion that Kibaki is not one of them! And if you are saying yes he is, then aren't we fighting against the right enemy right now? How does anyone dare seperate these and under what justifiable categories?
David, I am not at all trying to rush into judgement here. I am not with all due respect. But at the same time, I am beginning to feel very impatient with any potential threat that may be contained in your observations above, whether deliberately intended or otherwise! One must think very carefully as to how 'relaxed' and 'taking my time' kind of attitude one must assume.
Trust me; considering what we as Kenyans have been through over the years and especially now, I'd rather reserve the right to be as paranoid about us as they ever come and without a shred of guilt, than sorry and shameful of my self-inflicted naivety and deception!
I am afraid that you have not clearly justified your thinking as yet, and we are certainly and anxiously waiting for the core of your hypothesis sooner than later.
|
|
|
Post by aeichener on Feb 3, 2006 17:42:08 GMT 3
Excellent posting, Roughrider.
Alexander
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Feb 3, 2006 18:47:27 GMT 3
Fellow Kenyans,
I'm going to make a few points here.
1. The story on Anglo Leasing and other scams was not broken by the Nation Media Group this month as falsely claimed by Kamau. The first "allegations" were publicly made by KANU MP Maoke Maore from the floor of Parliament on 21 April 2004. The first media house to publish a full expose on Anglo Leasing and other related scams was the East African Standard on Sunday 13 June 2004.
One can easily check these facts from the archives of the local Kenyan publications and from pages 1 and 9 of John Githongo's Short Statement dated 22 November 2005.
Therefore, there is no need to worry ourselves as to the purpoted "reasons" why it was the Sunday Nation that published the report this month. Why waste time on Kiboro and others?
2. If there was an imperialist design in Kenya, it would be to prop up Kibaki; not the other way around. In fact, on can even claim that this exposition was originally intended to "cleanse Kibaki" of the Anglo Leasing and other ghosts so that he could keep a firm grasp on his regime.
I had published an article some time back titled "Kibaki is smart; so why is he breaking up the country?" in which I questioned Kibaki's [through Isaiiya Kabira's article in the Kenyan papers] attempt to "recondition" himself by purporting to have been the architect of the Sessional Paper No. 10 of 1965, etc.
Essentially, my argument then [and now] was/is that Kibaki was desperately trying to show the Western governments that between him and some of his prominent opponents like Raila, it was he [Kibaki] that should be "trusted." He wanted to present himself as a tested and trusted loyal Western lackey. The trick could have worked [and indeed worked marvellously] during the Cold War. But not right now.
The Western governments gave Kibaki more than enough chance to fix things. However, what we have seen is not just incompetence; it is also massive looting on a scale unknown before.
3. The notion that Kibaki popularly won an election in December 2002 is only part of the strory. The main question really is: How did Kibaki win?
We all know that Kibaki and his group of looters won by lying to the Kenyan people that:
(i) Narc was a coalition "party" and that it would govern collegially through the Narc Summit and other Narc organs;
(ii) Narc government would promulgate the new popular constitution [as far as I'm concerned, this is the Bomas Draft] within 100 days of taking power;
(iii) Narc would forever confine grand corruption, tribalism, cronysm and government through roadside declarations to a permanent grave;
(iv) Narc would introduce at least 500,000 jobs per year immediately after taking power;
(v) Narc would fully account for all the the decades of misrule and lootings, and address the interests of the victims of previous dictatorships; and
(vi) Kibaki would be a transitional leader for 5 years.
These were the main reasons why Kibaki was popularly elected. Yet, one has to be completely dishonest to believe that he has delivered on ANY of these pre-election promises.
Essentially, as we have been told by none other than Kibaki's bosom buddy, John Michuki, Kenyans were led on the garden path in order to score an electroral victory.
To assert that Kibaki won and therefore shouldn't be removed is akin to arguing that if one obtains a benefit (money, etc) through fraud and deception [like in the Anglo Fleecing Scams], then one should be allowed to "retain" or "keep" the "stolen" loot or acquired benefits [as in the case of the fraudulent Kibaki regime] because the FRAUDSTER "won fair and clear." The question is: Did Kibaki win fair and clear? In other words, if Kibaki had openly disclosed to Kenyans before his election that he would preside over magnificent lootings; appoint only his tribal cabal and cronies to all important positions in government; refuse to reform the judiciary, the police, the civil service, the military, the NSIS, etc; refuse to allow the enactment of a new people-focused constitution within 100 days; that he would murder innocent civilians in Kisumu, Mombasa and either preside over or cover up politically orchestrated assassinations like those of Dr. Odhiambo Mbai, Dr. Robert Ouko, etc; refuse to honout the MOU he signed with the LDP; refuse to govern collegially through the Narc Summit; refuse to consult widely on all important national issues; etc etc - WOULD KENYANS HAVE VOTED FOR HIM? WOULD HE HAVE WON THE MAJORITY BEING DANGLED IN OUR FACES?
If the answer to these questions is that: Kibaki betrayed us on each and every pre-election promise [as our answer must be] - would we still say that Kibaki's election is LEGITIMATE? If it is, from where does that legitimacy emanate?
Why then are some people so convinced about the "legitimacy" of this Kibaki regime?
You be the judge.
[unedited] -Miguna-
|
|
|
Post by abdulmote on Feb 3, 2006 20:30:30 GMT 3
miguna, aren't you shocked and surprised about OO's "latest bravado"? Won't you comment anything about it and specifically on Onyango's 'un-understandable' stance? Aren't you even a little bit disturbed? Or is it that you are still not sure about your own thoughts and incredibly dissappointing conclusion? I do know and can imagine how difficult it can be to find yourself in direct, critical and public dissagreement on some very fundamental issues with your long time friend. I count Onyango as my friend just as well although miles apart. But sometimes that is the ultimate test towards holding yourself accountable to your true and upright conscience and so for those whom you claim to fight for!
On a side note; I could never imagine that one day Onyango would use such a heading of his topic, in such a time in our state of affairs. The heading reads; "Time to DEFEND the Kibaki regime is NOW"! Can you believe this? "DEFEND the Kibaki regime"?
For instance, even if OO was specifically and genuinely concerned with the "empirial forces" as he alleges, why then express that concern with the threat it may pose to the people's sovereignty as if it SHOULD BE represented by "Kibaki's regime"? In other words, why title his concerns in such a style? This is certainly non-reflective of Onyango's language and thinking as we know of! Simply amazing!
|
|
|
Post by job on Feb 3, 2006 20:40:25 GMT 3
Oloo, I must admit I've not yet comprehended the essence of your "timely" warning, and call to Kenyans to defend the Kibaki regime.With all due respect, can you explain in detail and provide some evidence,..... which you have definitely not done so far. As for me, I have no business defending a corrupt, inept & dictatorial regime that loots & misappropriates public resources, perpetrates "andu aitu" tribalism and cronyism, and stiffles dissenting views,.......... Right now, opposition rallies have been banned in Kenya,......the press is being forewarned of impending Treason charges,.....parliament has been unilaterally prorogued at the whims of a dictator called Kibaki,.......as they continue looting, shielding looters, and plotting more looting........ The Wolf has to get the hell out of the Chicken house! The Hens have no business DEFENDING the Wolf,.....and blocking his exit. What is Kibaki's survival spin,......ati "Imperialists are using London-based Githongo & ODM, to overthrow my popularly elected government" For the benefit of majority Kenyans, let's sequence our priorities in an orderly and meaningful manner,....... ............what is our immediate priority between these two debates; debate on current misgovernance, grand corruption, & looting,.........and...... debate on ideological or socio-economic preferences/biases & caution(s),....... Kenyans are up in arms, against a corrupt and inept regime, ....they themselves want a regime change yesterday,......just as you aptly remarked in your contradictory posting,.......I'll quote you,...." Make no mistake: I firmly believe that Kibaki and NAK must go."So what's the beef if that's precisely what Kenyans are doing? and Since you say he must go,......When must he go?,.........then What's up with this apparently contradictory Title "Time to DEFEND the Kibaki regime is now"Are you throwing a spanner into the works or I'm mistaken here?. Your good advice to Kenyans seems to be that; we just stay calm & put despite all the thieving,...since Kibaki was elected by 60% vote,....... and that by reacting to Githongo's dossier, & calling for Kibaki's resignation,......we are falling into the hands of Imperialists set to overthrow our popular & democratic government.Bwana,.........have you been hanging out too much with Kamale, before your trip to Mali? About this Imperialist staged coup-plot/ regime-change chorus,...... Now this is a tune so familiar to us ,........it is Chris Murungaru's hit song,.........Muite loves to play it, Ngunyi records it behind the scenes,......and it seems to be selling pretty good. Murungaru & Kibaki have been playing the song since the former's ban from setting foot in the West.I cannot buy such a defeatist and distractionist propaganda-driven song. It has no substance,.......it is cheap and can't sell my pal. We are removing Kibaki & his looting cabal by ourselves,.......and demanding that they ALL face Justice and pay all restitution due to the public. We are NOT FORGETTING the GOLDENBERG looters TOO,....some being shielded by none other than Kibaki himself. The land grabbers illuminated by the Ndungu report must face the same law. Kibaki has danced with the Imperialists all his life,....and the fact that he has made new friends in the East,.....some who care less about human values, and character-integrity issues,......he is willing to do business with them,.......not for the common interest of wananchi,......but for personal enrichment,..........fatter kick-backs and thicker palm-grease. We know London is hosting Githongo at Kibaki's chagrin,.......we know London was about to loose some major Kenyan contracts (an attempt was made before Kibaki held back),.... whether he is mad at London or London mad at him is neither here nor there. Now I will not confuse one thing here. By talking about changing Trade partners from the West to East,.....does Kibaki support any Ideological change shunning Imperialism altogether? Definitely not. He is just stirring up the anti-Imperialists to help him fight his London enemy,...buy some time,.....jumble up issues,....distract the public,.......and eventually slide out of the current crisis he is in. I don't want to digress but Oloo, there will surely be heated debate when the time is right about related topics,.......including this Murungaru talk about leaving Western Land-Rovers and going for Eastern Mahindras or Mitsubishis. We will carefully debate it,....since it is all more of the same thing,........Just shifting of the Market drivers from West to East may not achieve any positive change like some people want to lie. Sorry for diverting. How Kenyans remove Kibaki is up to them,.......and whether some Imperialists sieze the opportunity to participate or "flow with" an already ongoing process is not such a BIG DEAL as you may want to portray, .....because you know too well that Kibaki's regime is in itself,....... an Imperialist "project"......... Only that it's a project gone bad. When the World bank with-held funds to Kenya,...(which were eventually destined into looters pockets anyway),.......was that desirable for Kenyans or not? If donors and Kenyans alike call for Kibaki to resign,....... does that support Imperialism per-se? Since you have admitted that Kibaki must go,....How about discussing instead,.........about your Ideological preferences for the next regime in Kenya,........how to help achieve that,.... and,.... How to improve the welfare of the masses & achieve good governance,........how to stay away from the imperialists and the Union Jack flag wavers-WITHOUT DEFENDING KIBAKI,.......If that's possible. This is certainly not the time to defend Kibaki's regime! unedited. Job.
|
|
|
Post by adongo12345 on Feb 3, 2006 20:47:26 GMT 3
May be I should start from the beginning of this discussion.
This is what OO said.
"Make no mistake:
I firmly believe that Kibaki and NAK must go.
Where I differ with the Born in Kenya Union Jack flag wavers is the PROCESS.
The UK has no business OVERTHROWING a legitimately and popularly elected government- leave that task to the Kenyan wananchi.
Accordingly, I DENOUNCE all those who are chortling as the West moves full throttle to choke to death the Kibaki regime.
It is time for all progressive, patriotic and anti-imperialist Kenyans to stand up against the regime change agenda of the G-8.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya "
I guess I have been missing in action. I have several problems with what OO says above and I will try to summarize it as follows.
1. The idea that the Kibaki government is being overthrown is an exaggeration. Yes the big guns who have been friendly to the Kibaki regime have turned their guns against him. I am talking about entities like "The Nation Newspapers", probably intelligence elements in the UK etc. But anybody who thinks Kibaki is done and cooked and all we have to do is the burial might be in for a rude shock. The man and his regime is very much alive.
Let me put it this way, Kibaki's regime is at its weakest, but if Kenyans don't take the battle up a notch into the streets and in parliament and everywhere else to make the country ungovernable for him and his crooks, nothing is going to happen. In fact he will get even stronger after the crisis. In other words it is the people of Kenya who can and must get rid of these crooks and incompetents. I don't see how the British are going to do it for us.
The other way is we let Kibaki limp into 2007 elections. Again it is the Kenyan voters who will have the task to tuff him or his replacement out of office. In both scenarios only the Kenyan people have the capacity to get rid of Kibaki so once again I fail to see how the Brits are going to do it for us.
2. The other thing we have to keep in mind is that Kibaki can easily weather the storm and even get re-elected. How does he do that? Look what is going on in the country. Everybody except may be for Raila is still begging Kibaki to take charge even when we know he is very deeply involved in the Anglo scam himself. If Kibaki was smart he would jump on that.
Mwiraria is gone. Get rid of Murungi, after all he is in Energy Ministry not a big deal. All they need is to get someone at the Treasury who they can trust to keep the seal as tight as possible. Saitoti would be the best bet for that, but the Goldenberg stinker is going to mess that up, so stick with Obwocha who is a wimp and who needs the position to boost his chances of taking the mantle from Nyachae in Gusiland. Get rid of Awori and put the idiot Kombo there to stabilize the Ford K ship for him for a while.
Then Kibaki can pretend to get tough with the crooks and even go after Muthaura. No jail time just a slap on the wrist. This is going to be easy because with he Goldenberg crooks coming up we might need to build a whole jail for the looters. So everybody gets to walk.
If Kibaki takes that route, the public will start cheering him and the ODM strategy of taking the battle to Kibaki will loose its punch and voila, Kibaki is fully back in the saddle and he can start poaching some of the ODM "leaders" into his team and they are ready for 2007.
My point here is that the alleged demise of Kibaki could not be further from the truth, unless we take matters into our hands. The irony is that the people comrade OO says are trying to tuff out Kibaki hates mass action more than they could possibly hate Kibaki. If they want Kibaki out, they can't do it without the masses on the ground taking charge and yet the last thing they would want to see happening is that kind of thing.
This tells me this battle is ours to win or lose. ONLY the people of Kenya can change the regime. Whatever help we can get to me is welcome, but it is our battle and our war and we intend to win it.
There is going to be NO palace coup in this one if you ask me.
Adongo
|
|