|
Post by shifta on Sept 22, 2011 20:51:06 GMT 3
sunday said:
..what a bunch of sexist male chauvinists on Jukwaa!!
|
|
gateway
Full Member
?Marijuana saved my life. I have no doubts about it and you don?t need to show me any data.?
Posts: 118
|
Post by gateway on Sept 22, 2011 20:57:34 GMT 3
SHIFTA, you are making noise over NOTHING. What in the world is wrong if one says a WOMAN is HOT?? What if he said she is UGLY?? Do not MAJOR in MINORS. Let's discuss the CASE. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by kunadawa on Sept 22, 2011 20:58:16 GMT 3
The root cause of the PEV Not quite. Let's wait and hear out this to the end. Clearly, PNU had an agenda for PEV. They had an official and non-offical network for unleashing violence on hapless ODM members. Most of the evidence being presented by the prosecution is irrelevant to the three suspects despite being gruesomely graphic. The correct people they should have charged were the Mungiki or those who lead the attacks (including a certain ex-MP in Nakuru). Plus if the Ali as police boss perpetrated the violence why did the displaced flee to the police stations??
|
|
|
Post by sang2000 on Sept 22, 2011 21:19:14 GMT 3
[quote author=kunadawa board=general thread=5752 post=77246 time=1316714296
[/quote] Kunadawa wrote:
Most of the evidence being presented by the prosecution is irrelevant to the three suspects despite being gruesomely graphic. The correct people they should have charged were the Mungiki or those who lead the attacks (including a certain ex-MP in Nakuru). Plus if the Ali as police boss perpetrated the violence why did the displaced flee to the police stations??[/quote]
Let me draw your attention to Article 28 of the Rome Statute regarding command responsibility:
In addition to other grounds of criminal responsibility under this Statute for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court: (a) A military commander or person effectively acting as a military commander shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court committed by forces under his or her effective command and control, or effective authority and control as the case may be, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such forces, where: (i) That military commander or person either knew or, owing to the circumstances at the time, should have known that the forces were committing or about to commit such crimes; and (ii) That military commander or person failed to take all necessary and reasonable measures within his or her power to prevent or repress their commission or to submit the matter to the competent authorities for investigation and prosecution. (b) With respect to superior and subordinate relationships not described in paragraph (a), a superior shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court committed by subordinates under his or her effective authority and control, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such subordinates, where: (i) The superior either knew, or consciously disregarded information which clearly indicated, that the subordinates were committing or about to commit such crimes; (ii) The crimes concerned activities that were within the effective responsibility and control of the superior; and (iii) The superior failed to take all necessary and reasonable measures within his or her power to prevent or repress their commission or to submit the matter to the competent authorities for investigation and prosecution.
So as you can see, section A will nail Uhuru and Muthaura, while section B will nail Ali. You may of course want to argue about the term "military commander", but that's neither here nor there.
|
|
|
Post by reporter911 on Sept 22, 2011 21:24:03 GMT 3
I'm still trying to clear images from my mind of NAILS SPIKED RUNGU'S entering the human bodies, flesh flying all over the place... Witness stated that her son was standing right there when his father was clobbered to death with a spiked rungu, I can imagine human flesh flying all over the place some even falling on his Son , it is a wonder some of these Kenyans who's family members were clobbered to death infront of them in such a cruel and sadistic manner must have gone crazy... cutting off private parts with sharp objects and broken bottles? call it the devils acts of circumcision these Mungiki guys where there to Kill, maim, behead, slaughter murder anyone not Kikuyu as per orders from their God Fathers now sitting blankly with no emotions in the ICC court.. No tear, no emotions I guess to them it is just another day at the Hague!!
|
|
emali
Full Member
Posts: 219
|
Post by emali on Sept 22, 2011 21:25:11 GMT 3
The way the OTP is prosecuting this case it’s like its already assumed Ali/Muthaura/Uhuru are going to full trial as the bulk of their case rests on witnesses who can’t testify at this stage.
All this info on Statehouse and Mungiki can only be substantiated with witnesses just like the first case it’s a lot of innuendo’s & allegations…where is the meat and bones? Something we haven’t heard before…though if the witnesses are credible it is going to be a long time in jail for these three but I find it hard to believe that a bunch of Mungiki fella’s sold out to the OTP…
|
|
|
Post by reporter911 on Sept 22, 2011 21:28:26 GMT 3
Not quite. Let's wait and hear out this to the end. Clearly, PNU had an agenda for PEV. They had an official and non-offical network for unleashing violence on hapless ODM members. Most of the evidence being presented by the prosecution is irrelevant to the three suspects despite being gruesomely graphic. The correct people they should have charged were the Mungiki or those who lead the attacks (including a certain ex-MP in Nakuru). Plus if the Ali as police boss perpetrated the violence why did the displaced flee to the police stations?? They were led to believe that the Police stations were the only safe place to hide.. if kenyans recall, in some cases in other parts of the country this was not the case.. attacks happened even at these police stations.. “Ballot to Bullets” by Human Rights Watch, 16 March 2008This 81-page report by Human Rights Watch documents details how hundreds of lives were lost due to organized political and ethnic violence sparked by irregularities in the December 2007 presidential elections. The report also describes unlawful killings by the Kenyan police, who it finds used excessive force in responding to demonstrations, killing hundreds of people. (And what did Ali do? protected the police who were involved, some were even transferred and promoted for following orders to shot and Kill.... Download the report: www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/03/16/ballots-bullets
|
|
|
Post by kunadawa on Sept 22, 2011 21:40:49 GMT 3
Then the prosecution needs to demonstrate command responsibility by Muthaura UK and Ali over the Mungiki military structure. They would have gotten a better case if they charged the ex MP who distributed Pangas to the mobs at Shabab in Naks [quote author=kunadawa board=general thread=5752 post=77246 time=1316714296 Kunadawa wrote: Most of the evidence being presented by the prosecution is irrelevant to the three suspects despite being gruesomely graphic. The correct people they should have charged were the Mungiki or those who lead the attacks (including a certain ex-MP in Nakuru). Plus if the Ali as police boss perpetrated the violence why did the displaced flee to the police stations??[/quote] Let me draw your attention to Article 28 of the Rome Statute regarding command responsibility: In addition to other grounds of criminal responsibility under this Statute for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court: (a) A military commander or person effectively acting as a military commander shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court committed by forces under his or her effective command and control, or effective authority and control as the case may be, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such forces, where: (i) That military commander or person either knew or, owing to the circumstances at the time, should have known that the forces were committing or about to commit such crimes; and (ii) That military commander or person failed to take all necessary and reasonable measures within his or her power to prevent or repress their commission or to submit the matter to the competent authorities for investigation and prosecution. (b) With respect to superior and subordinate relationships not described in paragraph (a), a superior shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court committed by subordinates under his or her effective authority and control, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such subordinates, where: (i) The superior either knew, or consciously disregarded information which clearly indicated, that the subordinates were committing or about to commit such crimes; (ii) The crimes concerned activities that were within the effective responsibility and control of the superior; and (iii) The superior failed to take all necessary and reasonable measures within his or her power to prevent or repress their commission or to submit the matter to the competent authorities for investigation and prosecution. So as you can see, section A will nail Uhuru and Muthaura, while section B will nail Ali. You may of course want to argue about the term "military commander", but that's neither here nor there. [/quote]
|
|
|
Post by danielwaweru on Sept 22, 2011 21:41:35 GMT 3
Phil,This is going to be laid out in open session (only sensitive portions in closed sessions). Right in front of the eyes of virtually all Kenyans, the ICC is really redefining Uhuru Kenyatta for what he actually is, not what he would wish or pretend to be.Aren't Kenyans seeing vicious and blood-thirsty masterminds of ethnic violence? Aren't folks seeing those who would kill masses to retain power? No wonder he wanted to poison the climate yesterday, to heighten ethnic passions in advance. What about State House. Is it simply the beautiful white house in the hill? With tonnes of corroborating evidence, I think the "Stately" State House has by now been mentioned like a thousand times, as the (a) planning meeting venue for retaliatory attacks; (b) collection point for Mungiki militia & (c) departure point for Mungiki militia heading to Naivasha and Nakuru. How bitter the truth is! Job, I am actually stunned at the torrential amount of the gut-wrenching evidence presented. The defence better have water-tight alibis for these guys. Unless I am inately biased, the evidence against Ruto/Sang/Kosgey axis was nowhere near this. Were they put there as red-herrings to placate a section of the Kenyan society? It seems this is Ocampo's real case. To add even more confusion, why did the defense go on a wild goose chase implicating Raila? What are they trying to justify? They were trying to prove command responsibility for his part of the violence. Not that it helps their case.
|
|
|
Post by danielwaweru on Sept 22, 2011 21:43:40 GMT 3
Not quite. Let's wait and hear out this to the end. Clearly, PNU had an agenda for PEV. They had an official and non-offical network for unleashing violence on hapless ODM members. Most of the evidence being presented by the prosecution is irrelevant to the three suspects despite being gruesomely graphic. The correct people they should have charged were the Mungiki or those who lead the attacks (including a certain ex-MP in Nakuru). Plus if the Ali as police boss perpetrated the violence why did the displaced flee to the police stations??[/quote] No way. At least part of the Mungiki was very clearly organised, and there must be accountability for it, both for those who commissioned it, and for those who were accessories.
|
|
|
Post by topnotch on Sept 22, 2011 21:43:42 GMT 3
Kunadawa, were you asleep during the session? Then the prosecution needs to demonstrate command responsibility by Muthaura UK and Ali over the Mungiki military structure. They would have gotten a better case if they charged the ex MP who distributed Pangas to the mobs at Shabab in Naks Let me draw your attention to Article 28 of the Rome Statute regarding command responsibility: In addition to other grounds of criminal responsibility under this Statute for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court: (a) A military commander or person effectively acting as a military commander shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court committed by forces under his or her effective command and control, or effective authority and control as the case may be, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such forces, where: (i) That military commander or person either knew or, owing to the circumstances at the time, should have known that the forces were committing or about to commit such crimes; and (ii) That military commander or person failed to take all necessary and reasonable measures within his or her power to prevent or repress their commission or to submit the matter to the competent authorities for investigation and prosecution. (b) With respect to superior and subordinate relationships not described in paragraph (a), a superior shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court committed by subordinates under his or her effective authority and control, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such subordinates, where: (i) The superior either knew, or consciously disregarded information which clearly indicated, that the subordinates were committing or about to commit such crimes; (ii) The crimes concerned activities that were within the effective responsibility and control of the superior; and (iii) The superior failed to take all necessary and reasonable measures within his or her power to prevent or repress their commission or to submit the matter to the competent authorities for investigation and prosecution. So as you can see, section A will nail Uhuru and Muthaura, while section B will nail Ali. You may of course want to argue about the term "military commander", but that's neither here nor there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 21:47:00 GMT 3
Defence: Where is OO to kick such bastards out of this forum. I find this really offensive in lieu of what I am listening to, the presentation about degradtion of women (rape). shifta,their misogyny is such that they can't notice that if nothing else; and yes, given the evidence being presented their comments are out of line. Their need to subordinate women is really a reflection of their own feelings of inadequacy. They need to see that lawyer up there not as a lawyer doing her job, but as a sexual object.
|
|
|
Post by kunadawa on Sept 22, 2011 22:01:51 GMT 3
Defence: Where is OO to kick such bastards out of this forum. I find this really offensive in lieu of what I am listening to, the presentation about degradtion of women (rape). shifta,their misogyny is such that they can't notice that if nothing else; and yes, given the evidence being presented their comments are out of line. Their need to subordinate women is really a reflection of their own feelings of inadequacy. They need to see that lawyer up there not as a lawyer doing her job, but as a sexual object. We're discussing beauty and not sex, you pevert!
|
|
|
Post by job on Sept 22, 2011 22:02:04 GMT 3
Job,
I am actually stunned at the torrential amount of the gut-wrenching evidence presented. The defence better have water-tight alibis for these guys. Unless I am inately biased, the evidence against Ruto/Sang/Kosgey axis was nowhere near this. Were they put there as red-herrings to placate a section of the Kenyan society? It seems this is Ocampo's real case. To add even more confusion, why did the defense go on a wild goose chase implicating Raila? What are they trying to justify? With such a torrent of evidence and meticulous corroborating statements, I can't merely accuse the OTP of focusing more on this case. It's just that the facts on this particular case were out there. On the other hand, I must agree, the OTP had (relatively) thin evidence to support the Ruto/Sang/Kosgey case. You can't compare as in Kenyan colloquial lingua.
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Sept 22, 2011 22:05:44 GMT 3
Phil,This is going to be laid out in open session (only sensitive portions in closed sessions). Right in front of the eyes of virtually all Kenyans, the ICC is really redefining Uhuru Kenyatta for what he actually is, not what he would wish or pretend to be.Aren't Kenyans seeing vicious and blood-thirsty masterminds of ethnic violence? Aren't folks seeing those who would kill masses to retain power? No wonder he wanted to poison the climate yesterday, to heighten ethnic passions in advance. What about State House. Is it simply the beautiful white house in the hill? With tonnes of corroborating evidence, I think the "Stately" State House has by now been mentioned like a thousand times, as the (a) planning meeting venue for retaliatory attacks; (b) collection point for Mungiki militia & (c) departure point for Mungiki militia heading to Naivasha and Nakuru. How bitter the truth is! Job, I am actually stunned at the torrential amount of the gut-wrenching evidence presented. The defence better have water-tight alibis for these guys. Unless I am inately biased, the evidence against Ruto/Sang/Kosgey axis was nowhere near this. Were they put there as red-herrings to placate a section of the Kenyan society? It seems this is Ocampo's real case. To add even more confusion, why did the defense go on a wild goose chase implicating Raila? What are they trying to justify? Sang,Kenyans following this case and they are in millions will agree with you that the evidence in this case, the way it is organized and presented leaves no doubt in the mind of any objective person that these are bloody murderers. At least that is the evidence. The one thing really killing muthamaki and co is that the NSIS reports corroborate witness testimonies. In the Ruto case, the evidence was such that one cannot say with any authority that Ruto is guilty just as much as one can't say he is innocent. At the end of the day as Job said, Ruto might end up in the trial simply because he could not prove he was not in the places he is accused of having been at organizing xyz. The evidence on the Ruto case led many to think an innocent man may end up facing years of trial only to get freed for lack of evidence. In the Uhuru case we see a guilty man whose only hope it seems to me is to find a way to dodge the bullet. In other words, Uhuru's case if he is ever freed would the case of a horrible mass murderer and criminal walking the streets. At least that is what the evidence so far says. We will see what the defense has. So far they are pathetic. And one more thing. As soon as this cases get confirmed Uhuru and Muthaura are not coming for trial. They are going to bolt and seek Kibaki's protection. The jokes are over.
|
|
|
Post by tnk on Sept 22, 2011 22:42:11 GMT 3
Job, I am actually stunned at the torrential amount of the gut-wrenching evidence presented. The defence better have water-tight alibis for these guys. Unless I am inately biased, the evidence against Ruto/Sang/Kosgey axis was nowhere near this. Were they put there as red-herrings to placate a section of the Kenyan society? It seems this is Ocampo's real case. To add even more confusion, why did the defense go on a wild goose chase implicating Raila? What are they trying to justify? Sang,Kenyans following this case and they are in millions will agree with you that the evidence in this case, the way it is organized and presented leaves no doubt in the mind of any objective person that these are bloody murderers. At least that is the evidence. The one thing really killing muthamaki and co is that the NSIS reports corroborate witness testimonies. In the Ruto case, the evidence was such that one cannot say with any authority that Ruto is guilty just as much as one can't say he is innocent. At the end of the day as Job said, Ruto might end up in the trial simply because he could not prove he was not in the places he is accused of having been at organizing xyz. The evidence on the Ruto case led many to think an innocent man may end up facing years of trial only to get freed for lack of evidence. In the Uhuru case we see a guilty man whose only hope it seems to me is to find a way to dodge the bullet. In other words, Uhuru's case if he is ever freed would the case of a horrible mass murderer and criminal walking the streets. At least that is what the evidence so far says. We will see what the defense has. So far they are pathetic. and this is just the beginning if the cases go to full trial, even more pertinent detail will follow. testimonies of victims and perpetrators and how they were organised, financed and reasons why they were sent to murder and how they selected their targets and how they carried out their plans once this information is out there in clear detail, then we can figure out the repercussions this is very ugly business but has to be done. like someone else said. we just want this information out there, we should not be harboring criminals on either side of the political divide. its very interesting with all this testimony on how these attacks were planned, how some of these suspects can turn around and claim political witchhunting weirdos
|
|
|
Post by mwalimumkuu on Sept 22, 2011 22:47:49 GMT 3
Job,
I am actually stunned at the torrential amount of the gut-wrenching evidence presented. The defence better have water-tight alibis for these guys. Unless I am inately biased, the evidence against Ruto/Sang/Kosgey axis was nowhere near this. Were they put there as red-herrings to placate a section of the Kenyan society? It seems this is Ocampo's real case. To add even more confusion, why did the defense go on a wild goose chase implicating Raila? What are they trying to justify? With such a torrent of evidence and meticulous corroborating statements, I can't merely accuse the OTP of focusing more on this case. It's just that the facts on this particular case were out there. On the other hand, I must agree, the OTP had (relatively) thin evidence to support the Ruto/Sang/Kosgey case. You can't compare as in Kenyan colloquial lingua. I am sorry to spoil the party; one must really wonder how these prosecutors get these jobs at the ICC. The whole thing is just a volume of emotional accounts and events without any insight. We all know that people died everwhere, but how do you place Uhuru, Ali and Muthaura in those places is the big question that remains unanswered. Apart from the tired story of statehouse meetings and a phone call to Ali, which have all been denied, I have not heard anything that can send someone to the gallows here, maybe Mungiki and no one else. Very disappointed, bure kabisa. Bring our Tobiko.
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Sept 22, 2011 22:54:26 GMT 3
tnk,
The one thing which Kenyans have to address now is the question of who is Uhuru Kenyatta? Some good friends of mine from the Agikuyu community have told me that Uhuru's slogan of "I was protecting my people" actually resonated with many in the Gikuyu communities who argued Uhuru acted to save them. Now we know slaughtering babies in their homes has nothing to do with protecting anybody but that is what Uhuru and co wanted to sell. These guys are known to sell snake oil to their gullible followers. But when Kenyans now see the full magnitude of these terrible crimes that myth is blown. The plan to murder people and cause mayhem was in place way back and the brutality with which it was executed boggles the mind. How does Uhuru face Kenyans after this and continue his lies of someone took them to the Hague so as to get to State House?
But let me say this about the possibility of full trials. If as it looks very likely the charges against Uhuru and Muthaura are confirmed the duo will not show up for trial. They are going to abscond and become international fugitives rather than face the real possibility of spending the rest of their lives in jail at the Hague. Iko shida!
|
|
|
Post by kunadawa on Sept 22, 2011 23:01:50 GMT 3
Well said, mwlimkuu. I reiterate that with the weight of the Okombo evidence it should be Maina Njenga and other shadowy Mungiki leaders in the doc. Including that Nakuru ex-MP who was dishing out pangas in Shabab. With such a torrent of evidence and meticulous corroborating statements, I can't merely accuse the OTP of focusing more on this case. It's just that the facts on this particular case were out there. On the other hand, I must agree, the OTP had (relatively) thin evidence to support the Ruto/Sang/Kosgey case. You can't compare as in Kenyan colloquial lingua. I am sorry to spoil the party; one must really wonder how these prosecutors get these jobs at the ICC. The whole thing is just a volume of emotional accounts and events without any insight. We all know that people died everwhere, but how do you place Uhuru, Ali and Muthaura in those places is the big question that remains unanswered.Apart from the tired story of statehouse meetings and a phone call to Ali, which have all been denied, I have not heard anything that can send someone to the gallows here, maybe Mungiki and no one else. Very disappointed, bure kabisa. Bring our Tobiko.
|
|
|
Post by tnk on Sept 22, 2011 23:52:12 GMT 3
adongo
if this goes to full trial, isn't that a long drawn out process over several months even years. also suspects do not have to appear in person at all sessions and are usually free to engage in (hate) politics until time of decision, i dont see these guys absconding especially uhuru and ruto. for some reasons these guys see this as the ultimate showbiz political platform and appear to enjoy going (visiting) the hague and coming back to tumultuous welcome parades. its kind of odd, but these two guys are strange, but their supporters are along the same path as those of sonko and kabogo.
maybe its lack of jobs in kenya
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Sept 23, 2011 0:01:18 GMT 3
Well said, mwlimkuu. I reiterate that with the weight of the Okombo evidence it should be Maina Njenga and other shadowy Mungiki leaders in the doc. Including that Nakuru ex-MP who was dishing out pangas in Shabab. I am sorry to spoil the party; one must really wonder how these prosecutors get these jobs at the ICC. The whole thing is just a volume of emotional accounts and events without any insight. We all know that people died everwhere, but how do you place Uhuru, Ali and Muthaura in those places is the big question that remains unanswered.Apart from the tired story of statehouse meetings and a phone call to Ali, which have all been denied, I have not heard anything that can send someone to the gallows here, maybe Mungiki and no one else. Very disappointed, bure kabisa. Bring our Tobiko. Hehehehehehe. You folks must be watching a movie that none of us has seen. But in the ICC court yesterday and more so today we have heard endless times evidence of Uhuru holding meetings, organizing funds, mobilizing the whole operation right from State House, hotels in Nairobi and Thika and basically being in charge of the operations. But I can understand your plight. It reminds me of what Michuki said about the charges against Muthaura. Michuki said how can a mzee like Muthaura be accused of raping women. In the ancient minds of people like Michuki being responsible for crimes means actually committing the rape and the murders yourself. So some of you may be waiting to see which heads or mmmes Uhuru chopped off or which woman he raped. That is going to be a long wait. The key words you need to look for are "holding the highest responsibility for crimes against humanity". Look no further than that and good luck.
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Sept 23, 2011 0:12:20 GMT 3
Adongo
If for a moment you ignored your desire for the political outcome of this trial process and gave it an objective thinking, do you seriously rate the evidence so far from the prosecutor that high?
Would you raise any questions to the failings of the prosecution as fast as you have been in discrediting the defence?
Perhaps that is what we should do here in Jukwaa. Critically analyse the statements being made by the prosecutor as well as the defence without basing our arguments on what our desired outcome should be.
Leave that decision to the three judges...but let us have our own Crown Court right here on Jukwaa based on the performance of the two parties.
|
|
|
Post by merlin on Sept 23, 2011 0:13:04 GMT 3
tnk, The one thing which Kenyans have to address now is the question of who is Uhuru Kenyatta? Some good friends of mine from the Agikuyu community have told me that Uhuru's slogan of "I was protecting my people" actually resonated with many in the Gikuyu communities who argued Uhuru acted to save them. Now we know slaughtering babies in their homes has nothing to do with protecting anybody but that is what Uhuru and co wanted to sell. These guys are known to sell snake oil to their gullible followers. But when Kenyans now see the full magnitude of these terrible crimes that myth is blown. The plan to murder people and cause mayhem was in place way back and the brutality with which it was executed boggles the mind. How does Uhuru face Kenyans after this and continue his lies of someone took them to the Hague so as to get to State House? But let me say this about the possibility of full trials. If as it looks very likely the charges against Uhuru and Muthaura are confirmed the duo will not show up for trial. They are going to abscond and become international fugitives rather than face the real possibility of spending the rest of their lives in jail at the Hague. Iko shida! Adongo,Kenyans will address the question of who is Uhuru Kenyatta? Even his friends who declared him the reincarnation of Jesus will in a short time turn their back on him. It does not matter if Uhuru abscond for trail. He will lose his influence, wealth and power. Citizens of Kenya will make a judgement and gain maturity becoming aware that there is something else like honesty being more important as wealth that makes you a good citizen.
|
|
|
Post by merlin on Sept 23, 2011 0:31:07 GMT 3
Adongo If for a moment you ignored your desire for the political outcome of this trial process and gave it an objective thinking, do you seriously rate the evidence so far from the prosecutor that high? Would you raise any questions to the failings of the prosecution as fast as you have been in discrediting the defence? Perhaps that is what we should do here in Jukwaa. Critically analyse the statements being made by the prosecutor as well as the defence without basing our arguments on what our desired outcome should be. Leave that decision to the three judges...but let us have our own Crown Court right here on Jukwaa based on the performance of the two parties. An interesting and gruesome day at the ICC.Kamale,Maybe you allow me to add my unsolicited opinion to your own Crown Court right here on Jukwaa based on the performance of the two parties. I am very disappointed by the defence teams getting the impression they have no clue how to react to the prosecutors’ allegations or maybe they realise they are fighting reality. Poor Ali, he has little defence against allegations of being an accomplice in the gruesome events in Nakuru and Naivasha by doing nothing. Muthaura,s defence focuses on the legality and performance of the prosecutor for not being nice and gallant to him by helping to build his defence for him. Uhuru Kenyatta is not worried about his defence or does not understand what is going on. He still is on the campaign trail blaming Raila Odinga for everything what happened to him. It is true the case has not started yet so we should not predict the outcome at this stage. If you are innocent then you do not need to be worried about building your defence or is it the other way around? When you are guilty it is difficult to build a defence as reality is very stubborn and cannot be replaced by stories or movie scripts even when you employ the best scriptwriters.
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Sept 23, 2011 0:33:07 GMT 3
Adongo If for a moment you ignored your desire for the political outcome of this trial process and gave it an objective thinking, do you seriously rate the evidence so far from the prosecutor that high? Would you raise any questions to the failings of the prosecution as fast as you have been in discrediting the defence? Perhaps that is what we should do here in Jukwaa. Critically analyse the statements being made by the prosecutor as well as the defence without basing our arguments on what our desired outcome should be. Leave that decision to the three judges...but let us have our own Crown Court right here on Jukwaa based on the performance of the two parties. Kamale,Forget the political outcomes desired by xyz. That is now a very tired story line. Nobody told Uhuru to mobilize mass murder, rapes, genital mutilation and all the heinious crimes being brought forth with very credible evidence so far. You cannot commit all these crazy crimes with your buddies and then turn around and say oh so and so wants me in jail. If you do not want to go to jail just don't commit crimes and lets see if someone will drag you from your house and take you to jail. Now, if you think the prosecution has made mistakes let's discuss those mistakes. If you remember on the second day of the Ruto team trial Jukwaa blasted the OTP almost the whole day for having a very weak case. I did not hear about "political outcome". In the Ruto case the OTP recovered on the third day and hang in there. If you follow our posts even from those you have often accused of having political investments in the trials of the suspects, some of whom may the worst criminals our country has ever seen, our position was that Ruto case may be confirmed but the prosecution needed to do a lot better or the man will walk free. We even went ahead and said quite clearly that it would be a terrible injustice to have Ruto dragged in court when there is no concrete evidence against him. We pointed out that Ruto's big blunder were the phony witnesses he took to the Hague and his inability to provide any credible alibi. You can go back and check that. In this case the evidence against Uhuru, Muthaura and Ali is overwhelming. It is very well organized and the delivery has been magnificient. If the OTP messes up, trust us to point that out. So that has not been the case. You are free to prove me wrong. One thing I can tell you is that tonight, Hague time when these suspects go for dinner there will not be much talking. Those guys are shell shocked and they know the genie is out of the box now forever. Look at the Kenyan papers sepecially the Standard. Some people are in a state of shock and others are now traumatized again. We now understand why Kibaki was so desperate to stop these trials. This is dynamite. Mr Khan tried so hard yesterday to block witness testimonies and even to postpone the hearings as witnesses are investigated. That fell flat. But hearing the evidence it is understandable why they mad such desperate moves. When all is said and done as Kenyans we are going to figure out how to get the country back and together for long haul. That is going to be tougher than jailing a few terrible criminals. That crossed my mind yesterday and after today's ocean of horror I now know we are in for some serious soul searching as a nation. It will never be business as usual after this. But that is for later.
|
|