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Post by sang2000 on Sept 23, 2011 1:05:56 GMT 3
Sang,Kenyans following this case and they are in millions will agree with you that the evidence in this case, the way it is organized and presented leaves no doubt in the mind of any objective person that these are bloody murderers. At least that is the evidence. The one thing really killing muthamaki and co is that the NSIS reports corroborate witness testimonies. In the Ruto case, the evidence was such that one cannot say with any authority that Ruto is guilty just as much as one can't say he is innocent. At the end of the day as Job said, Ruto might end up in the trial simply because he could not prove he was not in the places he is accused of having been at organizing xyz. The evidence on the Ruto case led many to think an innocent man may end up facing years of trial only to get freed for lack of evidence. In the Uhuru case we see a guilty man whose only hope it seems to me is to find a way to dodge the bullet. In other words, Uhuru's case if he is ever freed would the case of a horrible mass murderer and criminal walking the streets. At least that is what the evidence so far says. We will see what the defense has. So far they are pathetic. And one more thing. As soon as this cases get confirmed Uhuru and Muthaura are not coming for trial. They are going to bolt and seek Kibaki's protection. The jokes are over. Nd. Adongo, I could not agree with you more regarding Ruto and co. But to the extend that the Rome Statute's Rules of Procedure and Evidence mandate the judges to allow any type of evidence - even the un-corroborrated ones, and further that the OTP only needs to show the "probative value" of evidence in the Pre-Trial Phase, Ruto and co's case, as you have opined with Job, will most probably go to full trial. Whether the OTP will get a conviction is an argument for another day. The only thing I foresee happening is that some charges might be dropped due to un-met evidential thresholds, while others are upheld. As for Uhuru and co, the rape charge is particularly bad, given that sexual violence has a special chapter in the "Rules of Procedure and Evidence". And remember they dwelt on that for a considerable amount of time. And given that the prosecutor laid out an elaborate picture showing the relationship between an existing organization - complete with a name, and organizational hierachy - and Muthaura and Uhuru, it would be foolish to think the case would not go to full trial - unless the defense comes back with really really air-tight alibis and exculpatory evidence demolishing that mountain already built by the OTP today. I am still not sure yet where to put Ali. From the show of confidence by the OTP, I believe that they already have the phone records from the phone companies, of Michuki and Muthaura placing a call to Ali. If that's the case, Ali might, in the end strike a plea bargain, and say that "yes, I received the call, but I did not act on it. Show me the order that I issued". That alone will nail Uhuru and Muthaura forever, while Ali walks. |
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Post by politicalmaniac on Sept 23, 2011 6:00:42 GMT 3
I am still not sure yet where to put Ali. From the show of confidence by the OTP, I believe that they already have the phone records from the phone companies, of Michuki and Muthaura placing a call to Ali.Actually Ali is the easiest guy to assign into a specific box. He was the executing arm of the planner in authority higher up. Its clear he was also to be made the scapegoat. I keep on wondering what Ali could have done, if he knew he was going to be the fall guy yrs down the road. Would have given Mungiki safe pasage? Would he resigned and scampered to exile? What of his family and relatives? Ali per se was owned by the mafia to whom he owed his job,a nd lifestyle and perks. I dont think he was privy to the actual scheming of stealing the election. But he was projected to be an integral part of the post election events. So now he is caught between a rock and a hard place. Sing for the prosecution and get some legal reprieve? Or, Play ball with the mafia wa mt kenya ama his personal safety and that of his family, is at major riskAlso the guy ahs acquired a lot of ill gotten loot which can disappear any time. Plus he has a plum job. His die is obviously cast with the mafiya wa mt kenya. Now, ali has already seen how mercilessly and ruthlessly the mafiya wa mt kenya dealt with the mungiki errand boys, who could finger them. The mafiya wa kenya snuffed the life out of 'their own', folks who did the actual killing on thier behalf!!. They have no compunction killing anyone in their way. The mafia have placed ali's stones in a vice and he cant move! All he can do now is put on a brave face and hope for the best. If there is a weak link in this case, its him. He can elect to sing like a canary and commit the murderous muthamaki and the gray haired rasputin to jail for a long time. Or he can join them in jail. No good options!! |
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Post by mank on Sept 23, 2011 6:56:58 GMT 3
I cannot wait to hear Ocampo's evidence. I am quite doubtful that he has the case he thinks he has. His chore argument does not seem to make sense ... Muthaura, Uhuru and Ali killed, raped and displaced (or caused all these to happen to) people so to keep power. To whom were they losing the power, and how were the crimes to save them the power? Well, he is the pro in this field, and I am just struggling with his logic.
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Post by kamalet on Sept 23, 2011 8:08:22 GMT 3
I cannot wait to hear Ocampo's evidence. I am quite doubtful that he has the case he thinks he has. His chore argument does not seem to make sense ... Muthaura, Uhuru and Ali killed, raped and displaced (or caused all these to happen to) people so to keep power. To whom were they losing the power, and how were the crimes to save them the power? Well, he is the pro in this field, and I am just struggling with his logic. That is exactly my point! The problem of his insistence on meetings may be blown away if any of the three has any alibi that removes them from the meeting. For instance if the story about the meeting at Nairobi Club (if it is not the NAirobi Safari Club) is easy to prove. For a large number of people to meet there, then someone would have booked the facility. I know because I am a member of the club. But it cannot be the Nairobi Club as the place is a popular one with ODM characters who used to meet there all the time. What about Nairobi Safari Club? That simply refuses to add up. The hotel is owned by an MP in the name of Githunguri who was not supporting the PNU alliance that had Uhuru in there having defeated the PNU candidate Njenga Karume. His hotel was hardly the one where the meeting would have been held. What I was hoping to hear was the mention of the Galileo Club as a venue for fund raising for the violence as the owner one Richard Ngatia was even denied a visa to enter the US apparently for his role in the violence alongside the threats to Kabando wa Kabando. The state house meetings are easy to prove especially if Ocampo has CCTV footage of the comings and goings of the gangs especially the mungiki leader as that would nail it for him. The allegations about state house meetings by the activists are actually centred around the alleged host Stanley Murage who was sacked following the settling in of the government. If the human rights guys claiming meetings at state house are correct, the for Ocampo, his killer witness would be Stanley Murage who would likely be unhappy with his sacking and decides to strike back. As I see it, if Ocampo cannot have this, then his evidence is doomed to fail. |
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Post by tnk on Sept 23, 2011 8:52:59 GMT 3
I cannot wait to hear Ocampo's evidence. I am quite doubtful that he has the case he thinks he has. His chore argument does not seem to make sense ... Muthaura, Uhuru and Ali killed, raped and displaced (or caused all these to happen to) people so to keep power. To whom were they losing the power, and how were the crimes to save them the power? Well, he is the pro in this field, and I am just struggling with his logic. That is exactly my point! The problem of his insistence on meetings may be blown away if any of the three has any alibi that removes them from the meeting. For instance if the story about the meeting at Nairobi Club (if it is not the NAirobi Safari Club) is easy to prove. For a large number of people to meet there, then someone would have booked the facility. I know because I am a member of the club. But it cannot be the Nairobi Club as the place is a popular one with ODM characters who used to meet there all the time. What about Nairobi Safari Club? That simply refuses to add up. The hotel is owned by an MP in the name of Githunguri who was not supporting the PNU alliance that had Uhuru in there having defeated the PNU candidate Njenga Karume. His hotel was hardly the one where the meeting would have been held. What I was hoping to hear was the mention of the Galileo Club as a venue for fund raising for the violence as the owner one Richard Ngatia was even denied a visa to enter the US apparently for his role in the violence alongside the threats to Kabando wa Kabando. The state house meetings are easy to prove especially if Ocampo has CCTV footage of the comings and goings of the gangs especially the mungiki leader as that would nail it for him. The allegations about state house meetings by the activists are actually centred around the alleged host Stanley Murage who was sacked following the settling in of the government. If the human rights guys claiming meetings at state house are correct, the for Ocampo, his killer witness would be Stanley Murage who would likely be unhappy with his sacking and decides to strike back. As I see it, if Ocampo cannot have this, then his evidence is doomed to fail. nobody least of all judges at the ICC expect a meeting where people are planning to kill and displace others will take place in conference hall with secretaries taking minutes and the minutes published in the local dailies such meetings would expected to be shrouded in mystery, with only selected participants, although other general meeting may be used as cover. i suspect much of the confidential evidence is what connects the various missing pieces and gaps. there is an over-reliance by the defence to capitalise on these apparent gaps which may in reality be as a result of redacted evidence. |
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Post by mangai on Sept 23, 2011 11:20:05 GMT 3
When Dr. Robert Ouko was murdered, rumours surfaced almost immediately on how and who was involved in his murder. These 'rumours' have persisted up to today in fact making it to a Parliamentary Select Committee Report investigating the death. There is always some truth in some of the rumours.
When the PEV escalated in the Rift Valley, a number of meetings were held by the Kikuyu business people ostensibly to raise money to assist their displaced colleagues in the Rift Valley. It is public knowledge. It was also 'rumoured' around that time that they had to come up with a strategy to stop the 'Kalenjin Warriors' from advancing and even overrunning Nairobi! That is why the retaliatory acts were engaged and as indeed corroborated by Jeff Koinange in his 3 sides of a coin TV clip posted here sometimes back.
I happened to be passing Nakuru around that time on my way from Bogoria and there was a lot of apprehension over reports that Mungiki was about to descend on the town 'any time'. I had only got to Nairobi when news filtered through on the mayhem that the once peaceful Nakuru town was experiencing. Had it not been for the military (not police) intervention, the situation could have been worse.
We should also not forget that during that time, there were police who were ODM supporters and who confessed on how they had been stopped from engaging the Mungiki murderous gangs. Even Merus had to be incorporated into the Mungiki as they are deemed to be more deadly (as per a confession from a Meru friend) and indeed as presented by the OTP.
It is all in public knowledge.
The Ruto case might be difficult to prove if they successfully argue that the violence was spontaneous. The initial violence was spontaneous and widespread across the country with the exception of Central, Eastern and North Eastern. It was initially targeted at perceived PNU supporters. Kindly remember, even Moi's sisal estate in Mogotio was set ablaze while his hotel at Lake Bogoria had to be protected by over 60 GSU officers as youths wanted to torch it down. The violence however took a life of its own due to historical differences between the Kalenjin and Kikuyus on land ownership in the Rift Valley.
The retaliatory attacks in Naivasha and Nakuru were however meticulously planned with the desired impact there for all to see.
In my opinion, it might be easier to prove Uhuru's culpability than that of Ruto's team.
It will also be interesting to hear what the OTP has to say today on the deaths of Mungiki 'sympathizers' Oscar Kingara and the other one gunned down on Luthuli Avenue in broad daylight
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Post by kunadawa on Sept 23, 2011 11:20:28 GMT 3
That is exactly my point! The problem of his insistence on meetings may be blown away if any of the three has any alibi that removes them from the meeting. For instance if the story about the meeting at Nairobi Club (if it is not the NAirobi Safari Club) is easy to prove. For a large number of people to meet there, then someone would have booked the facility. I know because I am a member of the club. But it cannot be the Nairobi Club as the place is a popular one with ODM characters who used to meet there all the time. What about Nairobi Safari Club? That simply refuses to add up. The hotel is owned by an MP in the name of Githunguri who was not supporting the PNU alliance that had Uhuru in there having defeated the PNU candidate Njenga Karume. His hotel was hardly the one where the meeting would have been held. What I was hoping to hear was the mention of the Galileo Club as a venue for fund raising for the violence as the owner one Richard Ngatia was even denied a visa to enter the US apparently for his role in the violence alongside the threats to Kabando wa Kabando. The state house meetings are easy to prove especially if Ocampo has CCTV footage of the comings and goings of the gangs especially the mungiki leader as that would nail it for him. The allegations about state house meetings by the activists are actually centred around the alleged host Stanley Murage who was sacked following the settling in of the government. If the human rights guys claiming meetings at state house are correct, the for Ocampo, his killer witness would be Stanley Murage who would likely be unhappy with his sacking and decides to strike back. As I see it, if Ocampo cannot have this, then his evidence is doomed to fail. nobody least of all judges at the ICC expect a meeting where people are planning to kill and displace others will take place in conference hall with secretaries taking minutes and the minutes published in the local dailies such meetings would expected to be shrouded in mystery, with only selected participants, although other general meeting may be used as cover. i suspect much of the confidential evidence is what connects the various missing pieces and gaps. there is an over-reliance by the defence to capitalise on these apparent gaps which may in reality be as a result of redacted evidence. The defence has not started their presentations, so be patient on what they will over-rely on. Obviously they will take advantage of gaps, which could also be there because the prosecution has no evidence to redact |
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Post by kamalet on Sept 23, 2011 11:45:40 GMT 3
When Dr. Robert Ouko was murdered, rumours surfaced almost immediately on how and who was involved in his murder. These 'rumours' have persisted up to today in fact making it to a Parliamentary Select Committee Report investigating the death. There is always some truth in some of the rumours. When the PEV escalated in the Rift Valley, a number of meetings were held by the Kikuyu business people ostensibly to raise money to assist their displaced colleagues in the Rift Valley. It is public knowledge. It was also 'rumoured' around that time that they had to come up with a strategy to stop the 'Kalenjin Warriors' from advancing and even overrunning Nairobi! That is why the retaliatory acts were engaged and as indeed corroborated by Jeff Koinange in his 3 sides of a coin TV clip posted here sometimes back. I happened to be passing Nakuru around that time on my way from Bogoria and there was a lot of apprehension over reports that Mungiki was about to descend on the town 'any time'. I had only got to Nairobi when news filtered through on the mayhem that the once peaceful Nakuru town was experiencing. Had it not been for the military (not police) intervention, the situation could have been worse. We should also not forget that during that time, there were police who were ODM supporters and who confessed on how they had been stopped from engaging the Mungiki murderous gangs. Even Merus had to be incorporated into the Mungiki as they are deemed to be more deadly (as per a confession from a Meru friend) and indeed as presented by the OTP. It is all in public knowledge. The Ruto case might be difficult to prove if they successfully argue that the violence was spontaneous. The initial violence was spontaneous and widespread across the country with the exception of Central, Eastern and North Eastern. It was initially targeted at perceived PNU supporters. Kindly remember, even Moi's sisal estate in Mogotio was set ablaze while his hotel at Lake Bogoria had to be protected by over 60 GSU officers as youths wanted to torch it down. The violence however took a life of its own due to historical differences between the Kalenjin and Kikuyus on land ownership in the Rift Valley. The retaliatory attacks in Naivasha and Nakuru were however meticulously planned with the desired impact there for all to see. In my opinion, it might be easier to prove Uhuru's culpability than that of Ruto's team. It will also be interesting to hear what the OTP has to say today on the deaths of Mungiki 'sympathizers' Oscar Kingara and the other one gunned down on Luthuli Avenue in broad daylight The problem with your argument is that the rumours may have been rife and may have even led to all the reports of KNHCR, Human Rights Watch etc but when the matter goes to court, it needs witnesses and corroborating evidence. The failure to nail it by Ocampo does not mean that people did not die or that there was no plan. |
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Post by mangai on Sept 23, 2011 11:55:32 GMT 3
When Dr. Robert Ouko was murdered, rumours surfaced almost immediately on how and who was involved in his murder. These 'rumours' have persisted up to today in fact making it to a Parliamentary Select Committee Report investigating the death. There is always some truth in some of the rumours. When the PEV escalated in the Rift Valley, a number of meetings were held by the Kikuyu business people ostensibly to raise money to assist their displaced colleagues in the Rift Valley. It is public knowledge. It was also 'rumoured' around that time that they had to come up with a strategy to stop the 'Kalenjin Warriors' from advancing and even overrunning Nairobi! That is why the retaliatory acts were engaged and as indeed corroborated by Jeff Koinange in his 3 sides of a coin TV clip posted here sometimes back. I happened to be passing Nakuru around that time on my way from Bogoria and there was a lot of apprehension over reports that Mungiki was about to descend on the town 'any time'. I had only got to Nairobi when news filtered through on the mayhem that the once peaceful Nakuru town was experiencing. Had it not been for the military (not police) intervention, the situation could have been worse. We should also not forget that during that time, there were police who were ODM supporters and who confessed on how they had been stopped from engaging the Mungiki murderous gangs. Even Merus had to be incorporated into the Mungiki as they are deemed to be more deadly (as per a confession from a Meru friend) and indeed as presented by the OTP. It is all in public knowledge. The Ruto case might be difficult to prove if they successfully argue that the violence was spontaneous. The initial violence was spontaneous and widespread across the country with the exception of Central, Eastern and North Eastern. It was initially targeted at perceived PNU supporters. Kindly remember, even Moi's sisal estate in Mogotio was set ablaze while his hotel at Lake Bogoria had to be protected by over 60 GSU officers as youths wanted to torch it down. The violence however took a life of its own due to historical differences between the Kalenjin and Kikuyus on land ownership in the Rift Valley. The retaliatory attacks in Naivasha and Nakuru were however meticulously planned with the desired impact there for all to see. In my opinion, it might be easier to prove Uhuru's culpability than that of Ruto's team. It will also be interesting to hear what the OTP has to say today on the deaths of Mungiki 'sympathizers' Oscar Kingara and the other one gunned down on Luthuli Avenue in broad daylight The problem with your argument is that the rumours may have been rife and may have even led to all the reports of KNHCR, Human Rights Watch etc but when the matter goes to court, it needs witnesses and corroborating evidence. The failure to nail it by Ocampo does not mean that people did not die or that there was no plan. That is what Ocampo is trying to prove. He has several corroborative witness accounts, even from the NSIS reports (i wonder how he was able to get that one though). |
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Post by kunadawa on Sept 23, 2011 12:57:10 GMT 3
The problem with your argument is that the rumours may have been rife and may have even led to all the reports of KNHCR, Human Rights Watch etc but when the matter goes to court, it needs witnesses and corroborating evidence. The failure to nail it by Ocampo does not mean that people did not die or that there was no plan. That is what Ocampo is trying to prove. He has several corroborative witness accounts, even from the NSIS reports (i wonder how he was able to get that one though). Ocampo's undoing will be overreliance on reports instead of conducting his own investigations |
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Post by mangai on Sept 23, 2011 14:18:35 GMT 3
Could we be having the wrong person in the dock in the person of Gen. Hussein Ali?
The Administration Police under AP Commandant Kinuthia Mbugua was mostly responsible for querring riots that broke out while at the same time inflicting total mayhem on the demonstrators. They were better equipped (with their then aptly branded 'dumu zaz' anti riot gear-following a tv commercial airing at the time') leading to disillusionment from their regular police counter parts.
Even recruits were brought in from Embakasi APTC to help in (they were later to be paid Kshs. 10,000/= each for their role).
The many police officers killed prior to voting day in various parts of the country, sent in as PNU agents, were APs recruited in an election rigging operation that was later blown up by the media.
Why is Gen. Hussein Ali in the dock and not Kinuthia Mbugua, the Commandant of the Administration Police?
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Post by kasuku on Sept 23, 2011 15:09:21 GMT 3
Could we be having the wrong person in the dock in the person of Gen. Hussein Ali? Why is Gen. Hussein Ali in the dock and not Kinuthia Mbugua, the Commandant of the Administration Police? I have being questioning Mr. Ali's role too here since the prosecution keeps on pointing at the two perpetrators, Muthaura and Uhuru and then add Ali as a mere “tool” used by the others. Is the prosecution kind of handing Ali a life saving rope to hang onto and then use it to swing out of the defense chair into the prosecution witness chair? But looking at Ali’s completely closed expression it’s hard to read him. He is a soldier as they should come. But I hope he also has some emotion and sees his chance to go and relax in retirement with good conscience. He has being used badly as we all saw, he tried fighting it sometimes too(see the raid at the KTN) |
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Post by mzalendo on Sept 23, 2011 15:27:39 GMT 3
The phone call by Muthaura was to Ali and not to kinuthia.
Of all the people you cant be trying to suggest that Muthaura doesnt know who was the right man for that job.
Free pass to mungiki, police shooting , use of police uniforms etc.
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Post by kasuku on Sept 23, 2011 15:36:25 GMT 3
But it doesn't add up. If Ali was totally under Muthauras Authority, then it's Muthaura to be blamed for giving the orders to Ali not to interfere. In both cases they have taken the sole top decision makers. Ali doesn't quite fit in there. He was taking orders from his bosses!
I still see him as a bate for the Prosecution
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Post by mzalendo on Sept 23, 2011 15:56:32 GMT 3
Ali was not employed to take orders from Muthaura only Kibaki can order him.
His responsibility comes in when he takes orders from people like Muthaura. That is why Ocampo has him in his net.Unless he tells us whether it was kibaki who ordered him. he is in the thick of things.
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Post by einstein on Sept 23, 2011 16:23:36 GMT 3
Did I sense Jane Kihara being mentioned indirectly as the one who told Mungiki in Naivasha to target mostly Luos?
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Sept 23, 2011 17:00:30 GMT 3
The MP mentioned is from KANU. Jane Kihara is/was Narc Kenya while her successor who is Mr John Mututho is/was KANU.
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Post by einstein on Sept 23, 2011 17:00:47 GMT 3
The report of the Oscar Foundation quoted at ICC. Now we know why Oulu and Oscar both had to die!
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Post by einstein on Sept 23, 2011 17:07:31 GMT 3
Guns and machetes bought from Somalia by PNU for use by the Mungiki.
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Post by einstein on Sept 23, 2011 17:10:34 GMT 3
Now we have Maina Njenga in the mix. He conducted oaths
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Post by Mr Defence on Sept 23, 2011 17:16:00 GMT 3
Today wearing sleeveless at the back :-)
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Post by mangai on Sept 23, 2011 17:38:50 GMT 3
Now we have Maina Njenga in the mix. He conducted oaths The prosecution is talking of a 'former' Mungiki sect leader. Could it have been Ndura Waruinge? Remember him causing mayhem in Kibera that led to several deaths, just before elections? |
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Post by affirmed on Sept 23, 2011 17:42:49 GMT 3
Mangai,
That would make more sense because I thought Maina Njenga was jailed for five years in 2007 and was not released until early 2009.
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Post by mangai on Sept 23, 2011 17:52:27 GMT 3
From the on goings at the Hague, one gets a clearer picture on why the Government was so determined to stop this case from going on at the ICC. They wanted to protect Uhuru and Co. Forget about Ruto.
The revelations are so damning that even if the trio are not prosecuted, Kenyans will have at least had a glimpse of the planning of and untold mayhem that Naivasha and Nakuru ODM supporters had to bear.
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Post by job on Sept 23, 2011 17:59:02 GMT 3
1. The presentation of Ali's individual responsibility is yet to be made - will be submitted by the white woman at the prosecution desk.
2. Looks like 2 rival Naivasha Town MPs (former and current), were competing to link with the Mungiki in coordinating the killing of Luos, Kalenjins and Luhyas in the town. I suspect the job was first outsourced to Mututho...but Jayne Kihara was competing to outdo Mututho...you saw the result asexplained by the OTP.
3. It is now obvious that PNU Liasion 1 = the late Njuguna Gitau (former Mungiki Spokesman). He was the direct link between Mungiki and the co-perpetrators (Muthaura and Uhuru Kenyatta)...clearly present at the State House meeting...he had to be killed extra-judicially.
Gitau had already spoken to Oscar Kingara (Oscar Foundation) who also had to be extra-judicially eliminated.
Another motivation for killing Gitau was probably also the claim he was directly involved with some military and top AP honchos (when he went to get AP uniforms for the Mungiki, and also the military trucks that transported Mungiki from State House).
4. It is clear that during PEV, the attempt to ring-fence all government security operations strictly within ranks of the Kikuyu failed miserably. I submit that is is precisely this snipping by non-Kikuyu's within the NSIS, that led to the undetected escape of many NSIS situation reports (now in Ocampo's hands), such as the sensitive ones detailing how Kenya Army Trucks ere used to ferry Mungiki after the State House meeting OR how AP uniforms were to be distributed to Mungiki for attacks targeting Nakuru, Naivasha, Eldoret, Kisumu, and Kakamega OR how arms were sourced from Somalia.
5. Isn't it also possible that many of the civilian murders attributed to police in these towns above were actually done by Mungiki in AP uniforms? Looks like the entire story of the PEV will need some future tweaking as the truth trickles in.
6. As for the vicious Nakuru attacks, I frankly think former Nakuru Town MP David Manyara should also be charged at the ICC along the same lines of Ali - assisting execute the joint plan.
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