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Post by Dumekenya on Mar 23, 2012 12:06:00 GMT 3
Indeed the Hague boyz are really incongruent ... ole wao it is their time to reckon, when they were told not to support Hague and instead have a local judicial process; they called those advisors vague.. now that Hague is beckoning they introduce cheap propaganda which even worsens the whole scenario. It is quite amazing how all this rolls down. and
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Post by Omwenga on Mar 28, 2012 0:24:14 GMT 3
omwenga,As primitive as many of our M.Ps are in concoting such reckless fallacies so easy to detect as rubbish the greatest culprit is our media. You cook up something like this with such obvious lies in any environment where there is at least a semblance of competent journalism you would get into a lot of trouble. An intern journalist with any basic skills in the trade would cut through this thing like a hot knife through butter. Any competent media would get this document look at the obvious concotions, read through the deliberete insertions like, let's get Kibaki, let's get our man Raila in office and let's get rid of the "popular" Uhuru and Ruto and expose the fraudsters. This is fraud and forgery involving Kenya's integrity and its dealings with other countries. It has to be treated with the seriousness it deserves. That is why I think Kenyans should demand serious investigations on this matter, find out the conspirators spining this nonsense, establish their motives and let them be held accountable for their lies and political games. This kind of stuff is very dangerous for the country. This must start with M.Ps demanding that this matter be discussed as a matter of national importance. I am sure both sides would like to get to the bottom of the issue. If Kilonzo wanst a debate on this matter he should get one and let these fraudelent criminals be exposed for what they are. Adongo,I agree with everything you have said here and must say there is an emerging urgency to put pressure on the media to be more responsible than merely looking out for their bottom lines. This is, of course, a very serious matter that we hope is to be followed up along the lines you suggest but it certainly must not be allowed to happen again in Parliament. This is the kind of reckless conduct no immunity should apply to those engaged in it and would love to see them made the guinea pigs to try the theory in the Supreme Court. The damage they are doing is not one peculiar to an individual or individuals but to the nation as a whole and that's what is reprehensible and unacceptable about this. Now comes Iteere reminding us of how far in much needed reforms we have not come and how much things will remain the same unless we have an election ushering in a government with a mindset to fully implement the constitution and doing away with impunity... Parliament probe into 'UK dossier' hits another snag
Investigation into the so called UK-ICC dossier ran into new problems when Police Commissioner Mathew Iteere sought two weeks to probe documents tabled in Parliament by Yatta MP Charles Kilonzo and Dujis MP Aden Duale. The police commissioner alleges he has not seen the documents that were tabled on March 8, which are actually public records that can be received on demand from Room 8 of Parliament. On Monday, Cabinet ministers including Internal Security Minister George Saitoti and immediate former former Foreign Affairs Minister Moses Wetangula failed to turn up. Yesterday Iteere told the MPs he had neither received the alleged memos ‘officially’ nor sought statements from officials named in the papers. The documents in question allege a conspiracy by the UK to detain international crimes suspects Uhuru Kenyatta and William Ruto and investigate President Kibaki over the 2007/2008 post-election violence. "I request two weeks," Iteere told the Defense and Foreign Relations Committee chaired by Wajir West MP Adan Keynan. No exhibit The officer said the National Security Advisory Committee, where he sits, informally discussed the dossier on March 22 without arriving at the any decision. According to Iteere, the committee appreciated that this was a "serious and sensitive matter." "I can’t open an investigation without an exhibit," Iteere said and added that he has written a letter to Parliament seeking a copy of the papers. Iteere was asked to return to Parliament on April 10 with a comprehensive report addressing all questions raised by the documents, including whether the papers are forgeries. Besides Kilonzo and Duale, the committee is expected to question other MPs and journalists believed to have constituted a complex web of conspirators involved in this matter. On Monday, the cabinet sub-committee on the ICC, which had been invited to testify, failed to do so. Saitoti, the only member who turned up refused to testify saying he could not speak for the rest. Wetangula who was Foreign Affairs minister till Monday and also sat in committee failed to testify because he was meeting British Minister Henry Bellingham over the same matter.
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 28, 2012 0:40:42 GMT 3
There will be other things to do in April. This one will quickly get forgotten, especially as nobody is really keen to follow the trail to its real end.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 28, 2012 5:06:38 GMT 3
There will be other things to do in April. This one will quickly get forgotten, especially as nobody is really keen to follow the trail to its real end. That is why the nightmare of the ICC trials loom ever so large. The court (ICC) is now seized with the reality that the forgers and liars about the ICC process now include the minister of justice himself. What does that say about justice for the victims of PEV in Kenya? It says among other things that the ICC is the only hope left to handle the matter. They will deal with it and the more the Kenyan police, ministers and Chief Executive mess around, the more ground they give the ICC to handle the matter conclusively. How does that help the Uhuru Project II? Try zero. That is how bad things are for the status quo and impunity peddlers. That is the problem they have to face sooner than later. It doesn't look good if you ask me. Let them deal with it. We will be hapa hapa. No problem. The quagmire of the ICC keeps growing. One step forward, ten steps back. It is real and it is frightening for them. Good. Every move is very costly one way or the other. Shauri zao!
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Post by kamalet on Mar 28, 2012 8:18:37 GMT 3
There will be other things to do in April. This one will quickly get forgotten, especially as nobody is really keen to follow the trail to its real end. That is why the nightmare of the ICC trials loom ever so large. The court (ICC) is now seized with the reality that the forgers and liars about the ICC process now include the minister of justice himself. What does that say about justice for the victims of PEV in Kenya? It says among other things that the ICC is the only hope left to handle the matter. They will deal with it and the more the Kenyan police, ministers and Chief Executive mess around, the more ground they give the ICC to handle the matter conclusively. How does that help the Uhuru Project II? Try zero. That is how bad things are for the status quo and impunity peddlers. That is the problem they have to face sooner than later. It doesn't look good if you ask me. Let them deal with it. We will be hapa hapa. No problem. The quagmire of the ICC keeps growing. One step forward, ten steps back. It is real and it is frightening for them. Good. Every move is very costly one way or the other. Shauri zao! Adongo Care to clarify how the Justice minister is a forger and a liar?
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 28, 2012 20:14:42 GMT 3
That is why the nightmare of the ICC trials loom ever so large. The court (ICC) is now seized with the reality that the forgers and liars about the ICC process now include the minister of justice himself. What does that say about justice for the victims of PEV in Kenya? It says among other things that the ICC is the only hope left to handle the matter. They will deal with it and the more the Kenyan police, ministers and Chief Executive mess around, the more ground they give the ICC to handle the matter conclusively. How does that help the Uhuru Project II? Try zero. That is how bad things are for the status quo and impunity peddlers. That is the problem they have to face sooner than later. It doesn't look good if you ask me. Let them deal with it. We will be hapa hapa. No problem. The quagmire of the ICC keeps growing. One step forward, ten steps back. It is real and it is frightening for them. Good. Every move is very costly one way or the other. Shauri zao! Adongo Care to clarify how the Justice minister is a forger and a liar? Kamale,Yes I can. Eugune Wamalwa first read out an exact similar forgery allegedly written by Ayang' Nyong'o to the ICC urging them to lock up Uhuru and Ruto when they appear for the Confirmation Hearing. The little Uhuruto choirboy read that piece of forged garbage at Uhuru Park as part of the welcome entertainment for the ICC suspects. Just as in the present forged documents presented to parliament they messed up spellings in that one too and couldn't even get Ayang's name right. (Those forgers need a spell check software like yesterday) If you remember Wamalwa's warlord friends of kina Ruto have been using that forged document to vilify Raila and ODM and in fact Ruto even asked Raila to apologize for that letter. Of course Ruto and co know these are forged taka taka but for them if they create the myth that Raila and his ODM allies are writing letters to ICC to get them locked up that is fine with them. Fast forward to the present forged nightmare for the forging society of Ruto and Uhuru. When Kiema Kilonzo had the temirity to bring that obviousy forged document to none other than the National Assembly of the Republic of Kenya he had the immediate support of both choirboys, namely Duale and Wamalwa who argued vigorously in parliament that these were legitimate documents providing proof that the ICC was working with the UK to lock up Ruto and Uhuru and later do the same to Kibaki. I would assume that Wamalwa at least had the opportunity to look at and read the document he was supporting and in any case his record with the forgery network speaks for itself. If Wamalwa did read the document, it would be foolhardy to expect him not to have noticed the obvious blunders by the forgers that had already been pointed out by the media when Wamalwa rose in the floor of the House to support the same. So it is obvious to anybody who has followed the forgeries and lies about the ICC that Eugene Wamalwa is a key cog in the infamy. Now that the same Wamalwa is supposed to work with the ICC it is going to be very interesting how far the ICC deals with him knowing what they already know about him and the indicted ICC suspects. My take though is that Wamalwa can do very little in his capacity to assist his friends as some expected but he may end up with a very tense working relationship with the ICC given his obvious entanglement with lies and falsehoods about the ICC. Whether that helps or injures the interests of his sponsors only time will tell. sawa?
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 28, 2012 20:32:40 GMT 3
And here is the nightmare I was talking about. When the bumbling fools forged documents and took them to parliament they did not think it through. Now we have Gichangi the NSIS who knows and has already said somewhere else that the documents were forgeries is trying to dodge the committee because he knows when he goes there he has no alternative but to tell them the whole crap is fake and the impact of that is huge for the forgers and the indicted chaps. You just can't go around trying to fake things about the ICC and foreign countries. The bullshit attempt to rope in Mr. Itumbi the little scummer, to cover up for the real forgers did not work. Now the rubber has hit the road. This is going to be very nasty and the schemers even working with State House still haven't figured out what to do. Shauri zao. We warned them, didn't we? People were whinning that Raila made a mistake to blow the issue up. He would have been a fool to ignore something so deadly and so serious which had directly dragged his name in a plot and the name of the president as well as the ICC and the UK. You don't keep quiet when crimes like this are being committed by already very dangerous characters particularly when you are the target of those criminal activities. You expose them and shed light on them. That is exactly what Raila did and he was dead right. They threw a can of worms at him and he threw it right back and it has expoded right in their faces. Good for them. We wll see who gets the last laugh, but I can say this already. The era of forgeries to implicate others and vilify the ICC is dead as a dodo. They will have to try something else. That part of the horror movie has been cut off kabisa. Here we go: www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2012/03/mps-issue-ultimatum-to-spy-chief/MPs issue ultimatum to spy chief Posted by Capital FM on March 28, 2012 NAIROBI, Kenya Mar 28 – The parliamentary Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations is demanding that NSIS Director General Michael Gichangi must appear before it over Britain’s alleged dossier on the ICC. Committee chairman Adan Keynan said they had issued fresh summons to the National Security Intelligence Service chief after he failed to appear before them for the second time. “I want this message to go to that very important entity… that entity is not operating in isolation. It’s an agency of the people of Kenya, fully funded by the taxpayers and therefore the message is they must appear before this committee. There is no shortcut!” he said.“No one will be allowed to operate outside the current existing constitutional framework. Not under our watch.”Gichangi had been directed to appear before the committee on Wednesday “without fail.” Gichangi instead wrote to the House team explaining that he was consulting the spy agency’s legal team whether to appear or not. “The one (letter) of today asks for more time to consult with the lawyers on certain issues. We have our counsels here (within Parliament) who will look at it so that they can be fair to the process,” he said. At the same time, the committee which is investigating documents tabled in Parliament alleging that Britain was manipulating the ongoing ICC process said it plans to hear testimonies from President Mwai Kibaki and Prime Minister Raila Odinga.The Speaker of the National Assembly Kenneth Marende and Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta have also been mentioned in the documents. Keynan said that they plan to seek audience everyone who has been mentioned adversely in connection with the documents tabled in the House by MPs Charles Kilonzo and Aden Duale. He reminded MPs and ministers how the late Elijah Mwangale-led Parliamentary Select Committee which probed the murder of Nyandarua MP JM Kariuki in 1975 at one point walked from Parliament to State House, Nairobi where they got audience with the late President Jomo Kenyatta.“We have looked at every aspect, we will look at it holistically and seeking audience with the Head of State and the PM at an opportune time so that we can also get their perspective,” he said. This came as MPs in the committee claimed that the Executive was reluctant to share information with Parliament on the matter which they say has been in the public domain for more than two weeks.Internal Security Minister George Saitoti who appeared before the committee as a member of the Cabinet Committee on ICC matters refuted the claims and asked for time to allow police to finish investigations into the matter. “There appears to be a misconception as though we are trivialising this issue. That is far from the truth… we understand the gravity of this statement. There will come a time when it will have to be pronounced whether it is genuine or not,” Saitoti stated.Saitoti was accompanied by Cabinet colleagues Otieno Kajwang and Amason Kingi who also sit in the Cabinet Committee. He added; “We feel like you have been pushing us to come out with information which we already do not have, because this matter is under investigation.” Newly appointed Foreign Affairs Minister Sam Ongeri also appeared before the committee, and said that the diplomatic relationship between Kenya and its former colonial master were very cordial despite the issue which is currently being probed by the police. He said the British government had written a ‘Note Verbale’ (a diplomatic communication prepared in the third person and unsigned) through its mission in Kenya, denying ownership of the document. They cited a ‘plethora of spelling mistakes” as of the reasons the document does not belong to the Queen’s government. Ongeri said the diplomatic communication also denied that there was a plot for an Odinga Presidency. He however appealed for two weeks to facilitate for the completion of investigations. “I will stand advised on the authenticity of the document which was tabled in Parliament by the ongoing investigations. But as it stands Ministry of Foreign Affairs, does not have capacity to conduct forensic audit,” he explained. Police Commissioner Matthew Iteere told the House team on Tuesday that police are likely to conclude their investigations by April 10.
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Post by mugabe on Mar 28, 2012 21:10:40 GMT 3
Adongo,
greetings my fellow jukwaist. Maybe you agree with me on seeing the irony of this all thing. The conventional wisdom among the PNU supporters and spin masters ala Mutahi Ngunyi and Moses Kuria is that RAO has in recent times hit the self destruct button. To use Ngunyi's words Raila is self-cannibalizing himself. Now the question if RAO has done what they say what have this PNU schemers repeatedly done? From the rigged elections, to the violence to the failed Shuttle diplomacy and now these. Honestly, who is more foolish than these guys? Do they get advice from an undereducated buffoon? Why do they never consider the final outcome in anything they do? Who in his right mind forges documents and leaves all the signs of forgeries including grammatical mistakes? Kwani this guys do not know how to use spelling-check or do the computers at the typing bureau they used in river road have no such feature? So RAO does not understand politics and his detractors are brilliant strategists? What a bunch of nonsense. Say what you will of Moi but he was truly a professor of politics. This PNU fellas are beyond average in strategic thinking. I guess that what happens when such high strategy is thought up in a bar cum brothel somewhere in river road in between copious amounts of Alcohol and Nyama Choma.
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 28, 2012 21:18:56 GMT 3
"Keynan said that they plan to seek audience everyone who has been mentioned adversely in connection with the documents tabled in the House by MPs Charles Kilonzo and Aden Duale."
This is nonsense. They need to first determine the authenticity of the document. Once they have determined that it is not authentic, there is no reason to bother people who have work to do.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 28, 2012 21:40:24 GMT 3
"Keynan said that they plan to seek audience everyone who has been mentioned adversely in connection with the documents tabled in the House by MPs Charles Kilonzo and Aden Duale." This is nonsense. They need to first determine the authenticity of the document. Once they have determined that it is not authentic, there is no reason to bother people who have work to do. otishotish,Parliamentary committees have very limited investigative tools. They are not cops. They do not have any tools for forensic investigation. It would be a big mistake for them to simply declare the documents as illegal. Event though there is what has been refered to as a plethora of spelling mistakes, grammatical blunders and other signs of obviousl forgery, parliament has to speak with everybody. Speak with the cops whom we pay to investigate criminal acitivities like these and actually to lock up criminals involved in them. The Committee has to talk to all parties named in the documents including the PM and even Kibaki. I am not sure the committee will get access to the ICC they should try. Imagine for a second these documents were legit. What implications would that have? A foreign country trying to get our president locked up and messing up with our country. That would have deadly implications. The trouble is we live in a country where people do crazy things and they are just taken as normal things. That is why some people thought roasting people in the homes was OK, hacking people to death because of their tribe was OK, raping thousands of women and even girls soem of whom were kids was OK, displacing 650,000 was OK. These things have been OK in our country for too long and that is why the new culture of stopping impunity is a shock to the status quo. It is time to tell people that some things are just not OK and there are consequences for them.
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 28, 2012 21:53:10 GMT 3
"Keynan said that they plan to seek audience everyone who has been mentioned adversely in connection with the documents tabled in the House by MPs Charles Kilonzo and Aden Duale." This is nonsense. They need to first determine the authenticity of the document. Once they have determined that it is not authentic, there is no reason to bother people who have work to do. otishotish,Parliamentary committees have very limited investigative tools. They are not cops. They do not have any tools for forensic investigation. It would be a big mistake for them to simply declare the documents as illegal. Event though there is what has been refered to as a plethora of spelling mistakes, grammatical blunders and other signs of obviousl forgery, parliament has to speak with everybody. Speak with the cops whom we pay to investigate criminal acitivities like these and actually to lock up criminals involved in them. The Committee has to talk to all parties named in the documents including the PM and even Kibaki. I am not sure the committee will get access to the ICC they should try. Imagine for a second these documents were legit. What implications would that have? A foreign country trying to get our president locked up and messing up with our country. That would have deadly implications. The trouble is we live in a country where people do crazy things and they are just taken as normal things. That is why some people thought roasting people in the homes was OK, hacking people to death because of their tribe was OK, raping thousands of women and even girls soem of whom were kids was OK, displacing 650,000 was OK. These things have been OK in our country for too long and that is why the new culture of stopping impunity is a shock to the status quo. It is time to tell people that some things are just not OK and there are consequences for them. Adongo: Today I am bit slower than usual, but nowhere did I suggest that the MPs simply, on their own declare the documents as forgeries. Isn't that what they are calling Iteere and Gichangi for? And explain this to me: After Gichangi and Iteere confirm that the documents are forgeries, why do they need to go around talking to everyone and his dog? There are really two things the Kenyan people want to know: (a) are documents fake or not?; (b) what is to be done about the answer to (a)? In my view, they should for the moment focus on (a), and the first order of business should have been to sharply question the MPs who brought them into parliament. Interviewing the PM and President, talking to the ICC, sending a delegation to the UK House of Commons .... what a joke!
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 28, 2012 22:08:47 GMT 3
Adongo, greetings my fellow jukwaist. Maybe you agree with me on seeing the irony of this all thing. The conventional wisdom among the PNU supporters and spin masters ala Mutahi Ngunyi and Moses Kuria is that RAO has in recent times hit the self destruct button. To use Ngunyi's words Raila is self-cannibalizing himself. Now the question if RAO has done what they say what have this PNU schemers repeatedly done? From the rigged elections, to the violence to the failed Shuttle diplomacy and now these. Honestly, who is more foolish than these guys? Do they get advice from an undereducated buffoon? Why do they never consider the final outcome in anything they do? Who in his right mind forges documents and leaves all the signs of forgeries including grammatical mistakes? Kwani this guys do not know how to use spelling-check or do the computers at the typing bureau they used in river road have no such feature? So RAO does not understand politics and his detractors are brilliant strategists? What a bunch of nonsense. Say what you will of Moi but he was truly a professor of politics. This PNU fellas are beyond average in strategic thinking. I guess that what happens when such high strategy is thought up in a bar cum brothel somewhere in river road in between copious amounts of Alcohol and Nyama Choma. mugabe,Mutahi Ngunyi is one of the worst quack analysts our country has seen. He has made a lot of money lying to a lot of gullible politicians. When I saw the amount of money people like Uhuru pay him (in a recent invoice expose here in Jukwaa) I thought I should be making millions doing that kind of business. Just lie to these people and get paid. They don't want to think so just pretend you are doing it for them and bingo you are rich and you are a fixture in TV talk shows. Mutahi Ngunyi has been wrong a million times. Going back to Bomas days Ngunyi and co promised there will never be a new constitution for Kenya and that it was just a few politicians who need it for their own interests. In fact Ngunyi was a key advisor to then then NAK of Kibaki telling them to ignore Raila's demands for a new constitution. They took his advice, minted a bogus constitution with the belief that only Luos will vote with Raila to reject the NAK fake constitution. Ngunyi was dead wrong but he ate the fools' money. He could care less. We can go through a whole list of Ngunyi's quack pieces that some people gobble without thinking but let's just look at his latest rave "gems". Ngunyi argues Raila will quit the GCG round about the beginning of December to try to get support from Kenyans who do not want March elections. Ngunyi goes on to say Raila shall have walked right into the PNU trap and Kibaki will continue to govern without him. Only an idiot would take such advice seriously. Raila is not foolish enough to do any such thing and will not do it. What will Ngunyi do after that? Just invent another lie for his gobblers. Mutahi is now fixated on the Mudavadi presidency. Ngunyi believes as most of those who forged rubbish documents that the ICC will arrest Uhuru and has advised Uhuru not to go to The Hague. If Uhuru were to take his advice which he probably will where will that leave Uhuru? He will be an international fugitive. How will Mudavadi even if he were to be the president help Uhuru? Trash the country for Uhuru's sake? That cannot happen because Kenya is too vulnerable for that. So you buy Ngunyi's snake oil at your own risk. If there are people foolish enough to buy them that is their problem. People like Ngunyi make money because many of our politicians and those who feed on his stuff refuse to deal with complex issues. Mutahi takes full advantage of that. He chews food for them before giving them simple stuff to swallow. What they don't get is by the time they swallow the half eaten food from Ngunyi there is no nurtrition left in that thing but they swallow it anyway. And by the way Mutahi Ngunyi's predictions on how NARA and the GCG would collapse have been endless dating back to 2008. They have all been dead wrong and just plain useless.
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bob
Full Member
Posts: 238
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Post by bob on Mar 28, 2012 22:36:36 GMT 3
Spot on ,nothing can far from the truth. This guy nothing but a con artist.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 29, 2012 0:00:12 GMT 3
And things are just getting hotter each day! Oh dear. Kibaki needs to shelve his boys and I am beginning to think Kibaki may have been in that forgery business as a prelude to jumping out of the ICC. Now I can see why the top cops are hiding under their beds eti they are doing investigations. These chaps need Plan B, C, & D. But one thing is for sure, Kibaki is terrified of this ICC thing. He knows exactly what he did. May be they are going to knock Muthaura out with some disease. Talk about Plan B. Here we go: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000055124&cid=4¤tPage=1
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Post by kamalet on Mar 29, 2012 10:53:32 GMT 3
And things are just getting hotter each day! Oh dear. Kibaki needs to shelve his boys and I am beginning to think Kibaki may have been in that forgery business as a prelude to jumping out of the ICC. Now I can see why the top cops are hiding under their beds eti they are doing investigations. These chaps need Plan B, C, & D. But one thing is for sure, Kibaki is terrified of this ICC thing. He knows exactly what he did. May be they are going to knock Muthaura out with some disease. Talk about Plan B. Here we go: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000055124&cid=4¤tPage=1All I can say is that Kibaki is guilty if at all of not stopping the killing of his people by marauding thugs and warriors whilst Raila is as guilty for his promotion (and funding!) of the violence when he supported the calls for "No Raila no peace". In any case...what is Kibaki scared of in ICC?
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 29, 2012 14:48:56 GMT 3
In any case...what is Kibaki scared of in ICC? Starting a 25-yr prison sentence in his 80s. That's what he's afraid of. And that's what will come from his meeting at his official residence (paid for by Kenyan taxpayers) with a members of a proscribed sect, to plot (among other things) the rape, murder, and displacement of Kenyans. I expect his charge-sheet to look like that of his two accomplices: •murder (article 7(l)(a)); •deportation or forcible transfer (article 7(l)(d)); •rape (article 7(l)(g)); •persecution (article 7(l)(h)); and •other inhumane acts (article 7(l)(k)).
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 29, 2012 16:00:42 GMT 3
And things are just getting hotter each day! Oh dear. Kibaki needs to shelve his boys and I am beginning to think Kibaki may have been in that forgery business as a prelude to jumping out of the ICC. Now I can see why the top cops are hiding under their beds eti they are doing investigations. These chaps need Plan B, C, & D. But one thing is for sure, Kibaki is terrified of this ICC thing. He knows exactly what he did. May be they are going to knock Muthaura out with some disease. Talk about Plan B. Here we go: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000055124&cid=4¤tPage=1All I can say is that Kibaki is guilty if at all of not stopping the killing of his people by marauding thugs and warriors whilst Raila is as guilty for his promotion (and funding!) of the violence when he supported the calls for "No Raila no peace". In any case...what is Kibaki scared of in ICC? Kamale,Mwai Kibaki was the president of Kenya before, during and after the 2007/8 PEV which saw over 1,300 Kenyans dead and thousands of women and girls raped. Even the people shot in Kisumu by cops and other security agents were "his people". Mr. Ndege and his family locked in their house and burned alive leaving 9 people many of whom children dead were "his people". The children burnt to death in Eldoret were "his people". Those killed in Kibera were also Kibaki's people just like everybody else in the country. It is quite telling that for you and those who think like that Kibaki's people are limited to his tribe. That has been the tragedy in our country since independence. Presidents are seen only as the president for and of their tribes and they behave exactly like that. Why then do they collect and use tax money from all Kenyans? Kibaki's ruination which is what has ended at The Hague started in 2003 when after being elected as the president of Kenya he turned himself into a Kikuyu president and abandoned the responsibilities of being a Kenyan president. That is why we are where we are. Now you ask why Kibaki is afraid? Good question. First of all his own Chief of Staff, Francis Muthaura is at the heart of the mass murder and rape case at the ICC. Why do you think he is there? Simple. Because he did what his boss asked him to do. Secondly meetings to organize mass murder and rape are alleged to have taken place at State House Nairobi and another at State House Nakuru. Why do you think Kibaki has been desperate to remove State House from being classified as one of the venues for organizing mass murder and rape? Simple. Because the president is in charge of State House. That is his office and home. Nothing happens there without his approval. But above all else Kibaki unless he has no memory at all, knows exactly what happened and who did what. He sure knows what he did more than any of us. And whoever said the guilty are afraid sure knew what they were talking about. The issue at stake now is whether in trying to save those accused of mass murder and rape in Kenya, Kibaki will be willing to throw the country under the train wreck. If he is willing to threaten the survival of the country again for his selfish interests he will have to face the wrath of Kenyans and I mean all Kenyans. Let him try. We will meet him where we would rather not meet.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 29, 2012 16:07:32 GMT 3
All I can say is that Kibaki is guilty if at all of not stopping the killing of his people by marauding thugs and warriors whilst Raila is as guilty for his promotion (and funding!) of the violence when he supported the calls for "No Raila no peace". In any case...what is Kibaki scared of in ICC? Kamale,Mwai Kibaki was the president of Kenya before, during and after the 2007/8 PEV which saw over 1,300 Kenyans dead and thousands of women and girls raped. Even the people shot in Kisumu by cops and other security agents were "his people". Mr. Ndege and his family locked in their house and burned alive leaving 9 people many of whom children dead were "his people". The children burnt to death in Eldoret were "his people". Those killed in Kibera were also Kibaki's people just like everybody else in the country. It is quite telling that for you and those who think like that Kibaki's people are limited to his tribe. That has been the tragedy in our country since independence. Presidents are seen only as the president for and of their tribes and they behave exactly like that. Why then do they collect and use tax money from all Kenyans? Kibaki's ruination which is what has ended at The Hague started in 2003 when after being elected as the president of Kenya he turned himself into a Kikuyu president and abandoned the responsibilities of being a Kenyan president. That is why we are where we are. Now you ask why Kibaki is afraid? Good question. First of all his own Chief of Staff, Francis Muthaura is at the heart of the mass murder and rape case at the ICC. Why do you think he is there? Simple. Because he did what his boss asked him to do. Secondly meetings to organize mass murder and rape are alleged to have taken place at State House Nairobi and another at State House Nakuru. Why do you think Kibaki has been desperate to remove State House from being classified as one of the venues for organizing mass murder and rape? Simple. Because the president is in charge of State House. That is his office and home. Nothing happens there without his approval. But above all else Kibaki unless he has no memory at all, knows exactly what happened and who did what. He sure knows what he did more than any of us. And whoever said the guilty are afraid sure knew what they were talking about. The issue at stake now is whether in trying to save those accused of mass murder and rape in Kenya, Kibaki will be willing to throw the country under the train wreck. If he is willing to threaten the survival of the country again for his selfish interests he will have to face the wrath of Kenyans and I mean all Kenyans. Let him try. We will meet him where we would rather not meet. When one is a bigoted tribalist it is never possible to see anything beyond the narrow tribal prism. At no time did I suggest that Kibaki was trying to save the Kikuyu if you read what I wrote. As for being worried, you pick the worst possible reason! The arraignment of Muthaura is not the excuse for Kibaki else I could also allude to the arraignment of Ruto being the excuse why Raila is out. You keep repeating when challenged about Raila that he was never an Ocampo statement based on the prosecutor's statement to the court. You have not given us the reason why Kibaki should be afraid.......or are you in any way agreeing with that dossier you still think is a fake?
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 29, 2012 16:13:06 GMT 3
Kamale,Mwai Kibaki was the president of Kenya before, during and after the 2007/8 PEV which saw over 1,300 Kenyans dead and thousands of women and girls raped. Even the people shot in Kisumu by cops and other security agents were "his people". Mr. Ndege and his family locked in their house and burned alive leaving 9 people many of whom children dead were "his people". The children burnt to death in Eldoret were "his people". Those killed in Kibera were also Kibaki's people just like everybody else in the country. It is quite telling that for you and those who think like that Kibaki's people are limited to his tribe. That has been the tragedy in our country since independence. Presidents are seen only as the president for and of their tribes and they behave exactly like that. Why then do they collect and use tax money from all Kenyans? Kibaki's ruination which is what has ended at The Hague started in 2003 when after being elected as the president of Kenya he turned himself into a Kikuyu president and abandoned the responsibilities of being a Kenyan president. That is why we are where we are. Now you ask why Kibaki is afraid? Good question. First of all his own Chief of Staff, Francis Muthaura is at the heart of the mass murder and rape case at the ICC. Why do you think he is there? Simple. Because he did what his boss asked him to do. Secondly meetings to organize mass murder and rape are alleged to have taken place at State House Nairobi and another at State House Nakuru. Why do you think Kibaki has been desperate to remove State House from being classified as one of the venues for organizing mass murder and rape? Simple. Because the president is in charge of State House. That is his office and home. Nothing happens there without his approval. But above all else Kibaki unless he has no memory at all, knows exactly what happened and who did what. He sure knows what he did more than any of us. And whoever said the guilty are afraid sure knew what they were talking about. The issue at stake now is whether in trying to save those accused of mass murder and rape in Kenya, Kibaki will be willing to throw the country under the train wreck. If he is willing to threaten the survival of the country again for his selfish interests he will have to face the wrath of Kenyans and I mean all Kenyans. Let him try. We will meet him where we would rather not meet. When one is a bigoted tribalist it is never possible to see anything beyond the narrow tribal prism. At no time did I suggest that Kibaki was trying to save the Kikuyu if you read what I wrote. As for being worried, you pick the worst possible reason! The arraignment of Muthaura is not the excuse for Kibaki else I could also allude to the arraignment of Ruto being the excuse why Raila is out. You keep repeating when challenged about Raila that he was never an Ocampo statement based on the prosecutor's statement to the court. You have not given us the reason why Kibaki should be afraid.......or are you in any way agreeing with that dossier you still think is a fake? Kamale,Below is exactly what you wrote" "All I can say is that Kibaki is guilty if at all of not stopping the killing of his people by marauding thugs and warriors whilst Raila is as guilty for his promotion (and funding!) of the violence when he supported the calls for "No Raila no peace"."Now you tell us what you meant by "his people". I am all ears. But you sure remind me of those thieves in Nairobi and Kisumu. As soon as they are busted they start screaming "Mwizi. Mwizi" pointing at whoever busted them. It doesn't work all the time particualrly when the evidence is so obvious. Try something else my friend. What you said is in black and white and people here are literate enough to read stuff and know what they mean.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 29, 2012 17:05:47 GMT 3
Kamale,Below is exactly what you wrote" "All I can say is that Kibaki is guilty if at all of not stopping the killing of his people by marauding thugs and warriors whilst Raila is as guilty for his promotion (and funding!) of the violence when he supported the calls for "No Raila no peace"."Now you tell us what you meant by "his people". I am all ears. But you sure remind me of those thieves in Nairobi and Kisumu. As soon as they are busted they start screaming "Mwizi. Mwizi" pointing at whoever busted them. It doesn't work all the time particualrly when the evidence is so obvious. Try something else my friend. What you said is in black and white and people here are literate enough to read stuff and know what they mean. Adongo When the killing started, Kibaki was president of the republic of Kenya. He had sworn to protect Kenyans under the constitution. Those are his people and I will not be drawn into petty tribal parallels as you would like me to. You made the conclusion of what "his people" means, not me. I would have had no problem writing about the kikuyu if that is what I wanted to say...but I did not! Wacha hio ujanja.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 29, 2012 18:19:35 GMT 3
Kamale,Below is exactly what you wrote" "All I can say is that Kibaki is guilty if at all of not stopping the killing of his people by marauding thugs and warriors whilst Raila is as guilty for his promotion (and funding!) of the violence when he supported the calls for "No Raila no peace"."Now you tell us what you meant by "his people". I am all ears. But you sure remind me of those thieves in Nairobi and Kisumu. As soon as they are busted they start screaming "Mwizi. Mwizi" pointing at whoever busted them. It doesn't work all the time particualrly when the evidence is so obvious. Try something else my friend. What you said is in black and white and people here are literate enough to read stuff and know what they mean. Adongo When the killing started, Kibaki was president of the republic of Kenya. He had sworn to protect Kenyans under the constitution. Those are his people and I will not be drawn into petty tribal parallels as you would like me to. You made the conclusion of what "his people" means, not me. I would have had no problem writing about the kikuyu if that is what I wanted to say...but I did not! Wacha hio ujanja. Kamale When people are busted there is little they can do. Let's move on. I can see you got my point very clearly. That is good. The debate is actually about Kibaki chickening out and trying to protect the indicted ICC suspects from the inevitable. Will Kenyans allow Kibaki to throw the country under the bus to protect a few individuals? That is the issue.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 30, 2012 15:17:29 GMT 3
Adongo When the killing started, Kibaki was president of the republic of Kenya. He had sworn to protect Kenyans under the constitution. Those are his people and I will not be drawn into petty tribal parallels as you would like me to. You made the conclusion of what "his people" means, not me. I would have had no problem writing about the kikuyu if that is what I wanted to say...but I did not! Wacha hio ujanja. Kamale When people are busted there is little they can do. Let's move on. I can see you got my point very clearly. That is good. The debate is actually about Kibaki chickening out and trying to protect the indicted ICC suspects from the inevitable. Will Kenyans allow Kibaki to throw the country under the bus to protect a few individuals? That is the issue. You do need start looking like you are literate and can read. In this case you came out rather illiterate.
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 30, 2012 16:11:04 GMT 3
Adongo, greetings my fellow jukwaist. Maybe you agree with me on seeing the irony of this all thing. The conventional wisdom among the PNU supporters and spin masters ala Mutahi Ngunyi and Moses Kuria is that RAO has in recent times hit the self destruct button. To use Ngunyi's words Raila is self-cannibalizing himself. Now the question if RAO has done what they say what have this PNU schemers repeatedly done? From the rigged elections, to the violence to the failed Shuttle diplomacy and now these. Honestly, who is more foolish than these guys? Do they get advice from an undereducated buffoon? Why do they never consider the final outcome in anything they do? Who in his right mind forges documents and leaves all the signs of forgeries including grammatical mistakes? Kwani this guys do not know how to use spelling-check or do the computers at the typing bureau they used in river road have no such feature? So RAO does not understand politics and his detractors are brilliant strategists? What a bunch of nonsense. Say what you will of Moi but he was truly a professor of politics. This PNU fellas are beyond average in strategic thinking. I guess that what happens when such high strategy is thought up in a bar cum brothel somewhere in river road in between copious amounts of Alcohol and Nyama Choma. mugabe,Mutahi Ngunyi is one of the worst quack analysts our country has seen. He has made a lot of money lying to a lot of gullible politicians. When I saw the amount of money people like Uhuru pay him (in a recent invoice expose here in Jukwaa) I thought I should be making millions doing that kind of business. Just lie to these people and get paid. They don't want to think so just pretend you are doing it for them and bingo you are rich and you are a fixture in TV talk shows. Mutahi Ngunyi has been wrong a million times. Going back to Bomas days Ngunyi and co promised there will never be a new constitution for Kenya and that it was just a few politicians who need it for their own interests. In fact Ngunyi was a key advisor to then then NAK of Kibaki telling them to ignore Raila's demands for a new constitution. They took his advice, minted a bogus constitution with the belief that only Luos will vote with Raila to reject the NAK fake constitution. Ngunyi was dead wrong but he ate the fools' money. He could care less. We can go through a whole list of Ngunyi's quack pieces that some people gobble without thinking but let's just look at his latest rave "gems". Ngunyi argues Raila will quit the GCG round about the beginning of December to try to get support from Kenyans who do not want March elections. Ngunyi goes on to say Raila shall have walked right into the PNU trap and Kibaki will continue to govern without him. Only an idiot would take such advice seriously. Raila is not foolish enough to do any such thing and will not do it. What will Ngunyi do after that? Just invent another lie for his gobblers. Mutahi is now fixated on the Mudavadi presidency. Ngunyi believes as most of those who forged rubbish documents that the ICC will arrest Uhuru and has advised Uhuru not to go to The Hague. If Uhuru were to take his advice which he probably will where will that leave Uhuru? He will be an international fugitive. How will Mudavadi even if he were to be the president help Uhuru? Trash the country for Uhuru's sake? That cannot happen because Kenya is too vulnerable for that. So you buy Ngunyi's snake oil at your own risk. If there are people foolish enough to buy them that is their problem. People like Ngunyi make money because many of our politicians and those who feed on his stuff refuse to deal with complex issues. Mutahi takes full advantage of that. He chews food for them before giving them simple stuff to swallow. What they don't get is by the time they swallow the half eaten food from Ngunyi there is no nurtrition left in that thing but they swallow it anyway. And by the way Mutahi Ngunyi's predictions on how NARA and the GCG would collapse have been endless dating back to 2008. They have all been dead wrong and just plain useless. Mutahi Ngunyi in as much as he is hated and loved by ODM supporters depending on which side his analysis lean but on most occasions he gets it right . Sample below him "prophesying" that Railas big headache will be Ruto -this was in 2008 allafrica.com/stories/200809010537.htmlBy Mutahi Ngunyi, 30 August 2008 Three tricks Raila should learn from Kibaki Prime Minister Raila Odinga should stop behaving like President Kibaki’s ‘‘house girl’’. The good president is taking it easy in his typical ‘‘kuji-enjoy’’ style, but this PM guy is too intense about work. He is everywhere, doing everything. What is more, no body asked him to: It is not part of his brief as PM or as MP for Langata. The man is just a restless being who has to keep busy. And the problem with his higgledy-piggledy style is that it exposes him. The more I reflect on Mr Odinga in ‘‘power,’’ the more ‘‘Moi-sh’’ he looks: selfish, unreliable and a turncoat. Today he supports the opposition, when in ‘‘power’’ he tells us opposition is bad. When in the cold he supports civil society, when in ‘‘power’’ he tells us that civil society cannot be involved in constitutional review. The man is swinging like a pendulum! But is this deliberate or is he doing it sub-consciously? I want to believe that Mr Odinga is looking for balance in his new role. And anyone in his position is bound to act like him -- higgledy-piggledy or ovyo ovyo (in Kiswahili). However, and as he looks for balance, the PM’s problem is that he is unable to keep his mouth shut. The confusion he is going through is, as a result, broadcasted to the public everyday to the horror of some of us. And this is why the PM should borrow a few tricks from his political twin brother -- the President. Not because President Kibaki is better than him, but because of what one philosopher said: “… a wise man benefits more from his enemies than a fool from his friends.” The first thing Mr Odinga should learn from President Kibaki is the politics of silence and scarcity. When looking for balance, silence is a powerful political tool. In fact silence does not only aggravate your enemy, it annoys even the devil. Each time an opportunity is given to him to shut up, the PM should therefore grab it. The Holy Bible says that “…even a fool, when he keeps quiet, appears wise”. In the case of Mr Odinga, his wisdom is becoming questionable because his mouth is all over. And the same can be said about his everyday appearance in the media. According to the law of supply and demand, scarcity increases the price. The more you are in supply as a politician, the lower your price and the lesser the respect. Because he is in the media daily, this ‘‘tinga’’ man is losing the magic and the mystique. In fact, each time I see him on TV, I switch channels to avoid his government small talk. The second trick regards the acquisition of an enemy. Every good politician has a worthy enemy. And, in the absence of one, you should create an enemy from nowhere. President Kibaki understood this principle early and, today, he is a creation of high quality and hardworking enemies. The same testimony can be given by Fidel Castro who believed that the bigger your enemy, the tighter the bond between you and your followers. In fact Castro believed that there was only one device for “keeping the spirit of the revolution alive.” That tool: a worthy enemy! If the PM is to make it as the fourth President of the Republic, he needs a good strong-headed enemy. His father, the late Jaramogi Oginga Odinga, had T.J. Mboya as the enemy who built him. With such an enemy on your heels, you cannot afford to be lazy. He will sharpen your skills and keep you focused. My hypothesis is that Mr Odinga is currently sloppy because he does not have an opposing force to energise him since he joined Mr Kibaki. And, unless he gets one, he is likely to grow lazy and unfocused. In my view, Mr Odinga’s worthy enemy is not the VP, Mr Kalonzo Musyoka. The opposing force for Mr Odinga will come from the Kalenjin. And the person to lead it is likely to be Mr William Ruto.
In fact, if Mr Ruto led a Kalenjin rebellion against the PM, Mr Odinga’s ambitions for 2012 would be in danger. This is so because the Kalenjin are his political lifeblood.The third trick is to commit to no one. President Kibaki has no loyalty to anyone, except his immediate family. And although politicians have a problem with this, it is an ancient rule of realpolitik. This way, he is not beholden to anyone and he has the independence to act as he wishes. In my recent reading of history, I have realised that enduring republics were built by strong, visionary individuals. In fact the Asian Tigers became economic giants because they were partly led by authoritarian leaders. To the contrary the PM is a groupie who believes in the ‘‘dictatorship of the proletariat.’’ Unfortunately, his team model has failed twice now because the captain is held hostage by the team members. In my view, therefore, the PM should abandon this ‘‘team thing’’ and establish hegemony as an individual. He should break away from the bondage of Mr Ruto and the rest of the Pentagon power brokers. Then he can have the luxury to commit to no one. And, while at it, he should remember the words of former President Moi: “… life is not an emergency.” As such, he should work hard, and play hard as well!
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Post by mugabe on Apr 1, 2012 0:20:36 GMT 3
What absolute gobbledygook by Ngunyi! Raila behaves like a house maid and like a groupie! Is that analysis or Matusi? This guy is a joke.
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 1, 2012 15:12:56 GMT 3
To my amazement I have had a dream and remembered a story from long ago which has made me relent on my vitriol toward Kibaki in his old age, appearing before the ICC to shed light on whether he was aware his state-house was a lounging lodge for murderers and rapists!
Some Spaniards working for a mining company in Congo told us a strange story. General Agostino Pinochet, the slayer of Salvadore Allende and murderous Chilean dictator, was arrested in London on the warrants of a Spanish judge. He was not depored to Spain on medical grounds. But what a mess!
Well, the general was forced to fake an illnes of total old age, dementia or something like that, in which he freely emptied his bladder, and freely relaxed his anal sphincters, creating a permanent nauseating odour about him. Keeping him in gentlemanly decorum became a nightmare, and the british became so disgusted with the 'rotten and rotting guest' that they accepted he was mentally gone! and deported him to his homeland. [Trade was also a factor of course].
So I had visions of Kibaki doing a Pinochet on the dutch and thought, hmm, Emilio wallowing in his own excrement and urine to avoid a court appearance before Ocampo! that is too much for me! I say save baba Jimmy from this shame!
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