US Warns of 'Consequences' in Kenya Elections

[OtishOtish]

www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/us-warns-of-possible-consequences-for-kenya-depending-on-presidential-election-outcome/2013/02/07/566fed20-7131-11e2-b3f3-b263d708ca37_story.html

The top U.S. State Department official on Africa is telling Kenyan voters of the possibility of “consequences” depending on whom the country selects as president.

The statement by U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Africa Johnnie Carson appeared to be a warning of potential consequences if the country votes in Uhuru Kenyatta, one of two top candidates for president. Kenyatta faces charges at the International Criminal Court in connection with the massive violence that occurred after Kenya’s last presidential election in late 2007.

Carson did not say directly that there would be “consequences” if Kenyatta is elected, but he hinted at it strongly. He said that individuals have histories and reputations that follow them when they are elected to higher office. Kenya votes for president March 4.

[mwalimumkuu]

Feb 7, 2013 17:27:10 GMT 3 OtishOtish said:

www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/us-warns-of-possible-consequences-for-kenya-depending-on-presidential-election-outcome/2013/02/07/566fed20-7131-11e2-b3f3-b263d708ca37_story.html

The top U.S. State Department official on Africa is telling Kenyan voters of the possibility of “consequences” depending on whom the country selects as president.

The statement by U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Africa Johnnie Carson appeared to be a warning of potential consequences if the country votes in Uhuru Kenyatta, one of two top candidates for president. Kenyatta faces charges at the International Criminal Court in connection with the massive violence that occurred after Kenya’s last presidential election in late 2007.

Carson did not say directly that there would be “consequences” if Kenyatta is elected, but he hinted at it strongly. He said that individuals have histories and reputations that follow them when they are elected to higher office. Kenya votes for president March 4.

Heheheheeee!! These guys must have realized the kind of damage Obama's statement did to their project and now they are on damage control. Raila must have worked the phones the whole night with his famous cry, eeeiiih, eeeeiih, please protect me from Uhuru, I don't want to deal with Uhuru eeeiiih eeeiiih!! Heheheheeeee!!

But tell you what? The more these guys issue such threats, the more they harden positions and make it worse for their candidate. If only they knew.

[OtishOtish]

Feb 7, 2013 19:09:48 GMT 3 mwalimumkuu said:

Heheheheeee!! These guys must have realized the kind of damage Obama's statement did to their project and now they are on damage control. Raila must have worked the phones the whole night with his famous cry, eeeiiih, eeeeiih, please protect me from Uhuru, I don't want to deal with Uhuru!! Heheheheeeee!!

But tell you what? The more these guys issue such threats, the more they harden positions and make it worse for their candidate. If only they knew.

Mwalimumkuu:

The excess of emotion that you are showing is not helpful when we deal with such serious matters; cool, sober minds are what are required.

Let me, for a minute, put on my hat as a citizen of that Other Country (not the necessarily the USA). We give Kenya quite a bit of aid (while its leaders and politicians and busy looting and stirring up tribal strife). My Other Compatriots and I do not went even a single cent of our hard-earned going to support a government of the worst possible sort of villains. As long as so many Kenyans depend on us, and our national laws and views on human rights and criminality require accountability in the proper use of taxpayer-funds, it seems important to warn Kenyans that there are some sort of characters we will not deal with.

Of course, Kenyans are free to elect whatever leaders they choose. But we are equally free to decide how to spend our money, and we are under no obligation to give any of it to felons. What we will do is warn Kenyans appropriately, and they can then make informed choices. We do not want a situation where suffering Kenyans end up wailing that "we didn't know!", "nobody told us!". When Kenya is fully independent and capable of properly taking care of its own affairs, that will be the time to be "tough"; anything else if foolishness. But, of course, we also recognize the right of Kenyans to be foolish; just don't count on our money to support such.

Now, putting on my hat as a Kenyan Citizen ... It would be disastrous, in many ways, for the country to have a government led by hunted criminals---criminals responsible for the worst sort of crimes known to humanity. Anything that can be said or done to prevent that needs to be said and done.

[kamalet]

Otishotish

Your other country does not give us aid because they are in love with us, it is on account of how much they benefit from us!

You can take this to the bank......Carson has done Raila a lot of damage that had perhaps been assuaged by Obama. Now we can go back to paint Raila as the poodle of the west and you can tell me how that helps Raila!

As one that sees lots of conspiracy theories.....do you think it is possible that Kibaki refuses to accept the US ambassador credentials to await the reaction of the US should he have to take them to a president Uhuru?

[OtishOtish]

Feb 7, 2013 19:51:46 GMT 3 kamalet said:

Otishotish

Your other country does not give us aid because they are in love with us, it is on account of how much they benefit from us!

I don't know what the alleged benefit is, but that's something we can debate on another day. If Kenyans want to use that as a factor in their considerations, that's fine. Our position is clear: no aid to a government of heinous criminals.

You can take this to the bank......Carson has done Raila a lot of damage that had perhaps been assuaged by Obama. Now we can go back to paint Raila as the poodle of the west and you can tell me how that helps Raila!

That's Raila's problem. As a Kenyan, I have only two issues with Raila: one, his consorting with a criminal monster; two, the fact that a Raila government would be run in the shambolic, rigged manner of CORD primaries while his acolytes continue to shout safi kama pamba!. As a citizen of my Other Country, and this is where the "warning" comes in, I don't even think of Raila. Still, when I look at news, I wonder if Kenyans have any choices other that Raila and Uhuru. Maybe that's something Kenyans should think about.

As one that sees lots of conspiracy theories.....do you think it is possible that Kibaki refuses to accept the US ambassador credentials to await the reaction of the US should he have to take them to a president Uhuru?

Who knows. Who cares. As I have stated, Kenyans (including Kibaki) are entirely free to show how "tough" they are. But I will note, though, that Sudan doesn't have a US ambassador and hasn't had one for some time; and the last one was actually based in another country (Kenya, as it happens).

[mank]

Feb 7, 2013 19:09:48 GMT 3 mwalimumkuu said:

Feb 7, 2013 17:27:10 GMT 3 OtishOtish said:

www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/us-warns-of-possible-consequences-for-kenya-depending-on-presidential-election-outcome/2013/02/07/566fed20-7131-11e2-b3f3-b263d708ca37_story.html

The top U.S. State Department official on Africa is telling Kenyan voters of the possibility of “consequences” depending on whom the country selects as president.

The statement by U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Africa Johnnie Carson appeared to be a warning of potential consequences if the country votes in Uhuru Kenyatta, one of two top candidates for president. Kenyatta faces charges at the International Criminal Court in connection with the massive violence that occurred after Kenya’s last presidential election in late 2007.

Carson did not say directly that there would be “consequences” if Kenyatta is elected, but he hinted at it strongly. He said that individuals have histories and reputations that follow them when they are elected to higher office. Kenya votes for president March 4.

Heheheheeee!! These guys must have realized the kind of damage Obama's statement did to their project and now they are on damage control. Raila must have worked the phones the whole night with his famous cry, eeeiiih, eeeeiih, please protect me from Uhuru, I don't want to deal with Uhuru!! Heheheheeeee!!

But tell you what? The more these guys issue such threats, the more they harden positions and make it worse for their candidate. If only they knew.

I find it interesting that the paper does not quote the Assistant Secretary of State saying anything particular about a particular individual, and instead reports projections of what the diplomat might have been implying. There is a chance the paper is cooking stuff up here.

Truly, “Choices matter and they have consequences,” ... “Individuals have reputations, individuals have images, individuals have histories. Individuals are known for who they are and what they do, what they have said, and how they act.” That's a very elastic statement. If you read it along with key editorials of the utterences made during the PEV you might come out with quite a different veiw of who the diplomat might have been talking about ..... if US means to warn Kenya against voting for particular individuals, it is sending very badly mixed and misleading information. I believe it is not warning Kenya about electing anyone - but the media likes charged gossip and hearsay, so I believe more awaits printing.

[OtishOtish]

Feb 7, 2013 21:13:51 GMT 3 mank said:

I find it interesting that the paper does not quote the Assistant Secretary of State saying anything particular about a particular individual, and instead reports projections of what the diplomat might have been implying. There is a chance the paper is cooking stuff up here.

Truly, “Choices matter and they have consequences,” ... “Individuals have reputations, individuals have images, individuals have histories. Individuals are known for who they are and what they do, what they have said, and how they act.” That's a very elastic statement. If you read it along with key editorials of the utterences made during the PEV you might come out with quite a different veiw of who the diplomat might have been talking about ..... if US means to warn Kenya against voting for particular individuals, it is sending very badly mixed and misleading information. I believe it is not warning Kenya about electing anyone - but the media likes charged gossip and hearsay, so I believe more awaits printing.

Those with eyes .... And those with ears ...

[deyiengs]

All I want is for Uhuruto to again hold a press conference and support the statement by Carson, just like they did when Obama issued his video statement. Hiyo tu.

Daily Nation puts it very clear

"Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto had rushed to laud the US position, which their camp interpreted as backtracking on a presumed threat to impose sanctions if the two were elected.
However, the veteran diplomat warned five times in response to questions referring to Mr Kenyatta that “choices have consequences”. He declined to elaborate."

Wengine like Kamalet can cry all they want and come with all sorts of theories.

[foresight]

Choices indeed have consequences.... There is thing that follows the jubilee coalition everywhere they go, it hangs on them and their supporters like a wicked shadow, I believe it is the cry of the victims and relatives, wailing before God IN ONE ACCORD saying "LORD GRANT US JUSTICE"...

[jakaswanga]

Otishotish,
The American position is confused. Obama's Tele-letter to Kenya, very neutral, is a different import from this overtly ominous Carson breathing fire. the positions are not sycronised. I think that is due to transition modalities, that is the vacuum as Clinton exits, and Kerry makes up his mind on priorities and cronies.

[mank]

If US meant to deter any individual from being president we would not even have got wind of it. IEBC would have had some very good reason why that person was not qualified to run. Its hard to believe that US waited for IEBC clearance so it can deal with individuals in the population. It just doesn't make sense! Then there was Obama assuring Kenyans that it is a ll their determination.

[mwalimumkuu]

Feb 7, 2013 23:40:19 GMT 3 jakaswanga said:

Otishotish,
The American position is confused. Obama's Tele-letter to Kenya, very neutral, is a different import from this overtly ominous Carson breathing fire. the positions are not sycronised. I think that is due to transition modalities, that is the vacuum as Clinton exits, and Kerry makes up his mind on priorities and cronies.

You couldn't have been more right. Here is another of Otishotish's comrades, very incomprehensible, he does not seem to even know what his own position is. These guys are just confused, very confused.

[OtishOtish]

Feb 7, 2013 23:40:19 GMT 3 jakaswanga said:

Otishotish,
The American position is confused. Obama's Tele-letter to Kenya, very neutral, is a different import from this overtly ominous Carson breathing fire. the positions are not sycronised. I think that is due to transition modalities, that is the vacuum as Clinton exits, and Kerry makes up his mind on priorities and cronies.

Jakaswanga:

I don't see where the confusion is. First, I think it would be highly inappropriate for Obama to make a statement of that sort; he has to appear to be above the fray. Second, especially given the Kenyan connection, you an be sure that Carson would not be talking like that unless Obama knew about it. Obama believes in tough, silent love. E.g. you will never hear him say anything about US aid to Kenya, but did you know that one USAID's biggest problem in relation to aid to Kenya is that it has grown so fast under Obama that they have trouble hiring Washington-based staff quickly enough to deal with the rise?

But, of course, if things "go wrong", it the junior fellows take the heat. Even Americans know how to ensure that baba is safi kama pamba. ;D

I don't think the message could have been any clearer. This is very different from my Other Country, where, as far as I know, contingency plans are in place but will not be talked about. But we usually agree with the USA on such matters, so ....

[OtishOtish]

Feb 8, 2013 0:07:00 GMT 3 mwalimumkuu said:

You couldn't have been more right. Here is another of Otishotish's comrades, very incomprehensible, he does not seem to even know what his own position is. These guys are just confused, very confused.

We can go back and forth on this, until the cows come home. Parse it this way, parse it that way ... the message is quite clear, and, because of its clarity, quite rightly very worrying to some. It is, after all, a message that is intended to cause thought and worry and then encourage rightful action. Kenyans are free to do as they wish, and, now that they have been properly informed, they should proceed to do so, according to their best judgment.

[furaha]

Feb 8, 2013 0:33:38 GMT 3 OtishOtish said:

Feb 8, 2013 0:07:00 GMT 3 mwalimumkuu said:

You couldn't have been more right. Here is another of Otishotish's comrades, very incomprehensible, he does not seem to even know what his own position is. These guys are just confused, very confused.

We can go back and forth on this, until the cows come home. Parse it this way, parse it that way ... the message is quite clear, and, because of its clarity, quite rightly very worrying to some. It is, after all, a message that is intended to cause thought and worry and then encourage rightful action. Kenyans are free to do as they wish, and, now that they have been properly informed, they should proceed to do so, according to their best judgment.

Indeed, as far as diplospeak goes ithis message is crystal clear: "We are watching you! We know about your efforts to divide rather than unite. We know about threats to the peace. We remember 2007 and know very well that attempts are underway to rob Kenyans of their right to freely choose their leaders. Wake up Kenyans and speak out before it is too late."

As far as extraordinary and unusual messages go, this one is very extraordinary and very unusual. And judging by how politicians rushed to welcome this message, they immediately grasped its meaning and for whom it was intended.

[b6k]

Feb 8, 2013 0:07:00 GMT 3 mwalimumkuu said:

Feb 7, 2013 23:40:19 GMT 3 jakaswanga said:

Otishotish,
The American position is confused. Obama's Tele-letter to Kenya, very neutral, is a different import from this overtly ominous Carson breathing fire. the positions are not sycronised. I think that is due to transition modalities, that is the vacuum as Clinton exits, and Kerry makes up his mind on priorities and cronies.

You couldn't have been more right. Here is another of Otishotish's comrades, very incomprehensible, he does not seem to even know what his own position is. These guys are just confused, very confused.

Hmmm. "No contact unless it is essential" is the key phrase there. One would imagine if ICC suspects Uhuruto continue cooperating with the ICC, & heaven forbid, actually win the election, then the envoy may deem it essential to meet with them

[b6k]

From the horse's mouth.....

[Omwenga]

Otishotish, Dayiengs and Foresight have made excellent observations and points about the import of all of these statements coming from the West; they can in a nutshell be summed up this way:

None of the civilized nations would support an ICC indictee Uhuru presidency with hi co-defendant Ruto as his deputy.

Makes no sense even to the two.

Were Kenyans not to wake up to this reality and vote the right people into office, they cannot complain of the consequences to follow.

Look for an airlifting of people from regions and areas that voted right and an individualized punishment of those from areas that voted wrong including denial of visas to travel to any of these countries were it to come to that.

China which is cited as ready to absorb the hit for Kenya has at the end of the day its interests it must cater to among civilized nations of which it has fought so long to be included so look for no consolation there and Iran is a no-go to for reason I need not get into except watch for that country to be among the first to condemn the election of Uhuru were a majority of Kenyans going to the polls to make the mistake and do so.

There is time, however, to avoid all these dire consequences and that time is now when like minded Kenyans must do everything in their power to educate and inform our brothers and sisters, parents and children of voting age who may not be aware of the consequences of electing Uhuru as our next president.

[cheshirecat]

Feb 8, 2013 8:58:17 GMT 3 Omwenga said:

Look for an airlifting of people from regions and areas that voted right and an individualized punishment of those from areas that voted wrong including denial of visas to travel to any of these countries were it to come to that.

Do you realize how ridiculous the above statement is? It's got to be the silliest thing I have ever seen on this board. How will visa officers know how someone voted?

[Omwenga]

Feb 8, 2013 9:20:08 GMT 3 cheshirecat said:

Feb 8, 2013 8:58:17 GMT 3 Omwenga said:

Look for an airlifting of people from regions and areas that voted right and an individualized punishment of those from areas that voted wrong including denial of visas to travel to any of these countries were it to come to that.

Do you realize how ridiculous the above statement is? It's got to be the silliest thing I have ever seen on this board. How will visa officers know how someone voted?

All this tells me is you are clueless as to how countries like the US and UK enforce their foreign policies, especially when it comes to carrots and sticks.

It may be the silliest thing you have seen on this board but then again when was the last time we had someone charged with serious crimes against humanity running for president of our country with his running mate being one of the other co-accused of committing other serious crimes against humanity.

Ati how would a visa officer know how someone voted; really? You think the visa officer will be sitting there waiting for an answer to the question of how someone voted in enforcing these policies?

I have no time to edify you on these things but it may behoove you to find out how its done.

The consequences the country faces were the majority going to the polls to make the mistake and elect Uhuru are far-reaching and dire I am certain there are those in denial about the fact but we shall to the last second make sure people know what they are.

[b6k]

Feb 8, 2013 9:20:08 GMT 3 cheshirecat said:

Feb 8, 2013 8:58:17 GMT 3 Omwenga said:

Look for an airlifting of people from regions and areas that voted right and an individualized punishment of those from areas that voted wrong including denial of visas to travel to any of these countries were it to come to that.

Do you realize how ridiculous the above statement is? It's got to be the silliest thing I have ever seen on this board. How will visa officers know how someone voted?

Cheshirecat, sadly what more can you expect from the thinking of political vultures who assume that removing Uhuruto from the race automatically translates into votes for Raila & CORD. There are still enough options in the race that leave the possibility of RAO finishing third in the polls a potential scenario in election 2013. Little wonder there is a systematic campaign at writing political eulogies for the very same folks they furiously attempting to "welcome back into the CORD fold behind the scenes! I bet you if either Uhuru or Ruto were to throw their support to Raila tomorrow they will be hailed as reformers who have put the country first....

As far as I know the US has never had a tribal quota for visas & will not engage itself in screening out those who voted the "wrong" way. It will simply base its visa distribution on merit & the ability to prove you can pay your way in their country, period. Let the cheerleaders of "reform" continue to delude themselves ;D

[Omwenga]

Feb 8, 2013 9:54:12 GMT 3 b6k said:

Feb 8, 2013 9:20:08 GMT 3 cheshirecat said:

Do you realize how ridiculous the above statement is? It's got to be the silliest thing I have ever seen on this board. How will visa officers know how someone voted?

Cheshirecat, sadly what more can you expect from the thinking of political vultures who assume that removing Uhuruto from the race automatically translates into votes for Raila & CORD. There are still enough options in the race that leave the possibility of RAO finishing third in the polls a potential scenario in election 2013. Little wonder there is a systematic campaign at writing political eulogies for the very same folks they furiously attempting to "welcome back into the CORD fold behind the scenes! I bet you if either Uhuru or Ruto were to throw their support to Raila tomorrow they will be hailed as reformers who have put the country first....

As far as I know the US has never had a tribal quota for visas & will not engage itself in screening out those who voted the "wrong" way. It will simply base its visa distribution on merit & the ability to prove you can pay your way in their country, period. Let the cheerleaders of "reform" continue to delude themselves ;D

b6k,

Name calling for me reduces people I otherwise read to the ignore/don't respond to column.

If you wish to engage in debate with yours truly, drop the name calling; calling us "political vultures" or "cheerleaders" does not advance a single point in debate except in the minds of those who can't think or are incapable of thinking for themselves and even though there are those here on Jukwaa who may fit the bill, most don't and therefore would require sober, intelligent or at least well reasoned arguments instead of cheap shots and other useless blabbering.

Put another way, to those who prefer intelligent or at least well reasoned arguments or points in debate, name calling is a distraction that renders whatever else is said useless as it's either ignored or read with little or not much thought to it considering the mindset of the one stating it as reflected in the name calling is not worth giving that much thought to what they say.

I know we are getting close to the finish line but for those of us who have kept this above bar in civility and quality debate even as we disagree, we can cross that line with the same high level of civility and debate.

[cheshirecat]

Feb 8, 2013 9:51:38 GMT 3 Omwenga said:

Feb 8, 2013 9:20:08 GMT 3 cheshirecat said:

Do you realize how ridiculous the above statement is? It's got to be the silliest thing I have ever seen on this board. How will visa officers know how someone voted?

All this tells me is you are clueless as to how countries like the US and UK enforce their foreign policies, especially when it comes to carrots and sticks.

It may be the silliest thing you have seen on this board but then again when was the last time we had someone charged with serious crimes against humanity running for president of our country with his running mate being one of the other co-accused of committing other serious crimes against humanity.

Ati how would a visa officer know how someone voted; really? You think the visa officer will be sitting there waiting for an answer to the question of how someone voted in enforcing these policies?

I have no time to edify you on these things but it may behoove you to find out how its done.

The consequences the country faces were the majority going to the polls to make the mistake and elect Uhuru are far-reaching and dire I am certain there are those in denial about the fact but we shall to the last second make sure people know what they are.

co'me on Omwenga.. Indulge a foolish Kenyan brother ohh you fountain of wisdom. You say certain people will get visas and others others won't. I challenge you to explain that statement.

Brushing me off with insults and rhetoric is what people caught out saying foolish things will resort to. You are smarter than that.

[Omwenga]

Feb 8, 2013 10:10:06 GMT 3 cheshirecat said:

Feb 8, 2013 9:51:38 GMT 3 Omwenga said:

All this tells me is you are clueless as to how countries like the US and UK enforce their foreign policies, especially when it comes to carrots and sticks.

It may be the silliest thing you have seen on this board but then again when was the last time we had someone charged with serious crimes against humanity running for president of our country with his running mate being one of the other co-accused of committing other serious crimes against humanity.

Ati how would a visa officer know how someone voted; really? You think the visa officer will be sitting there waiting for an answer to the question of how someone voted in enforcing these policies?

I have no time to edify you on these things but it may behoove you to find out how its done.

The consequences the country faces were the majority going to the polls to make the mistake and elect Uhuru are far-reaching and dire I am certain there are those in denial about the fact but we shall to the last second make sure people know what they are.

co'me on Omwenga.. Indulge a foolish Kenyan brother ohh you fountain of wisdom. You say certain people will get visas and others others won't. I challenge you to explain that statement.

Brushing me off with insults and rhetoric is what people caught out saying foolish things will resort to. You are smarter than that.

Cheshirecat,

I don't see where I have insulted you perhaps you can point that out to me and I'll promptly apologize.

That being said, I will not say anything beyond what I have said other than to say I stand by it.

As I suggested, it may behoove you to find this out on you own if you don't already know how countries enforce these individualized punishments in the carrot and stick approach.

A retired foreign service officer from any of these countries would be a good source on this if you can't google the info and if you don't know one, then take the word of those who know at least one.

[b6k]

Feb 8, 2013 10:05:56 GMT 3 Omwenga said:

Feb 8, 2013 9:54:12 GMT 3 b6k said:

Cheshirecat, sadly what more can you expect from the thinking of political vultures who assume that removing Uhuruto from the race automatically translates into votes for Raila & CORD. There are still enough options in the race that leave the possibility of RAO finishing third in the polls a potential scenario in election 2013. Little wonder there is a systematic campaign at writing political eulogies for the very same folks they furiously attempting to "welcome back into the CORD fold behind the scenes! I bet you if either Uhuru or Ruto were to throw their support to Raila tomorrow they will be hailed as reformers who have put the country first....

As far as I know the US has never had a tribal quota for visas & will not engage itself in screening out those who voted the "wrong" way. It will simply base its visa distribution on merit & the ability to prove you can pay your way in their country, period. Let the cheerleaders of "reform" continue to delude themselves ;D

b6k,

Name calling for me reduces people I otherwise read to the ignore/don't respond to column.

If you wish to engage in debate with yours truly, drop the name calling; calling us "political vultures" or "cheerleaders" does not advance a single point in debate except in the minds of those who can't think or are incapable of thinking for themselves and even though there are those here on Jukwaa who may fit the bill, most don't and therefore would require sober, intelligent or at least well reasoned arguments instead of cheap shots and other useless blabbering.

Put another way, to those who prefer intelligent or at least well reasoned arguments or points in debate, name calling is a distraction that renders whatever else is said useless as it's either ignored or read with little or not much thought to it considering the mindset of the one stating it as reflected in the name calling is not worth giving that much thought to what they say.

I know we are getting close to the finish line but for those of us who have kept this above bar in civility and quality debate even as we disagree, we can cross that line with the same high level of civility and debate.

Omwenga, where is the name calling exactly? A political vulture hovers in the air awaiting its prey's imminent death & hopes to cash out on their demise. It is simply an analogy not stated as a fact to be taken literally but figuratively. I could've used UK's hyena waiting for the swinging arms of a walking man to fall off to make a meal out of them. Insult, or flowery language? Your guess is as good as mine. As for "cheerleader", is there anything really wrong with that? You are constantly cheering for your side hence you are a cheerleader. At least I did not resort to the MM zinger "groupie" which rubbed many the wrong way on Jukwaa. You on the other hand are very comfortable using his "clueless" when referring to Cheshirecat which interestingly enough you do not consider an insult. Hmmm....