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Post by b6k on Feb 9, 2014 21:51:09 GMT 3
Where is Moonki Njakip Otishotish to provide us with his usual point by point "factual" rebuttals to Matsanga's missive above?
b6k:
You are one funny guy! Ati point by point rebuttal of Matsanga's "missive"! Ati Matsanga knows the inner workings of the court! Because a Defence team leaked some stuff to him?
I am not aware that anybody in the world takes Matsanga seriously, except some Kenyans, and it is astonishing to see him appearing on national media there. (Where else does he get such attention ... on TV, radio, newspapers, serious cyberforums, etc.) On second thoughts, I take that back: the Ugandans take him seriously, because they would like to try him for three murders.
On another thread, I clearly stated that I would mostly not be commenting here (on Jukwaa) on ICC matters until the unhelpful excitement had died down. (For obvious reasons, "Hero Omwenga" is an exception.) But my fans have made a demand, so I will make one quick exception.
Well Otishotish, hats off to your "fans" to nudge you back into the ring like the reluctant fighter your turning out to be. It's a bit disingenuous of you to pour a million threads about ICC when your NGO based narrative rules the day & then clamp up & go AWOL once cracks appear in the said narrative & it's demise is but a question of time. However, I digress. Like OO before you, you have done little than whip up a diversion that attacks Matsanga personally (he's now killed 3 people not one, a charge we should add to Ken Wafula's calling him a mental case), eh? What's become of the so-called "progressives" on Jukwaa who have become character assassins rather than address the message? I suppose you may want to employ a chief who's an advocate & write your letters to the ICC with poor grammar, spelling, numbering, etc to have them taken seriously by the court. Allow me to make it easier for you by breaking down Matsanga's missive to Bensouda: 1) Has Bensouda committed perjury as per article 70? 2) When did she realize the OTP's case was not as watertight as they originally thought it was? 3) Was she aware that Mungiki as a proscribed terrorist organization wouldn't give her the most credible of witnesses? (This ties in with Kay's assertion that charges were confirmed on flimsy grounds based on 2 witness testimonies which the defence couldn't interrogate/corroborate thanks to a blanket witness protection scheme) 4) What's your take on the alleged procurement of witnesses by USAID? 5) Is justice truly served by having the wrong people before the court? 6) What are your thoughts on Kenya instituting an International Crimes Division (ICD) within the judiciary to handle PEV cases? There you go. Now that I have ground down Matsanga's message as a healthy gizzard would, I trust you won't let your fanbase down by replying to those specific issues. You can then return to tackling oyominto Omwenga to your heart's content...
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Post by mank on Feb 10, 2014 0:07:40 GMT 3
Mank, there is an important point to remember. The decision to go to full trial was not Ocampo’s. He could believe whatever he wanted, but it was the Judges in the pre-trial chamber who had to satisfisfy themselves that, before the standards of the law they were using, the evidence supplied by the OTP-Ocampo was sufficient to commit to full trial. It is therefore, to me, more a case of Judges whose assessment of facts.. evidence.. were inadequate, below par (or compromised?) ... Unless the threshold in question is so minimalist anything goes. ----But fair is to say we had dissenter judges right from the beginning. Indeed amigo. But it was Ocampo to satisfy the pre-trial chambers that his team had sufficient incriminating evidence against the Ocampo boys. He did so then. What has changed is that the trial chamber has now seen the worth of Ocampo's evidence. So the question is, would the fact that OTP has so far not been able to look through bank records (something that was never in the horizon of the pre-trial evidence) lead the court to think there is more value to come through this OTP? By the way, why does Fatou expect bank accounts to show criminality? What if she actually finds huge movement of money from the account ... does she then expect the court to convict with that? Or is she fighting for an opportunity to start a different line of prosecution, with all new team of witnesses? I think only the latter would make sense ion her situation. Spontaneous is relative. Obviously there was a widespread urge to expel them. The question is whether that urge was created intentionally and whether the trial chamber can be convinced so. The witnesses have compromised the possibility of convincing the court of such. . The most credible allegation there is (credible since it is openly released to the public by someone involved) is that withdrawal is due to unwillingness to participate in coached witness evidence . Other allegations of witness intimidation cannot be corroborated. Interestingly OTP tried to tell us that Kabutu recanted his evidence due to intimidation ... but we had the man's clip telling us a different and more compelling reason... and if you listen to witnesses the appearance of coaching is at the surface .... which gives the defense lawyers such an easy time chewing the evidence into paste then spitting it. ... may be so. All the more the reason Kenyans should be disappointed with OTP ... why is it possible to get a few willing liars and not one witness who actually tells the incriminating story as it were? . If only OTP made a genuine attempt to get to the truth rather than seeming to "know who is guilty" and then looking for people who could give the necessary "evidence" .... like I have said severally before, why has the guy who sprinkled the Kiambaa church with fuel mot been summoned and challenged to show that he was not so on command? A prosecution that knows how difficult it is to harvest incriminating evidence from indirect speeches might have found this rather a direct route to evidence .... but they chose only to argue of linkages between the murderer and their suspect. Is that really evidence? . That is exactly what I had in mind when I said that "spontaneous" is relative. In my view, tribal rhetoric is not necessarily criminal ... the people who act criminally, unionized by that tribal rhetoric, are directly criminally liable. That is why, to me, getting to the individuals who torched a church is more important than establishing that Ruto spoke in parables at meetings. If we establish a command from Riot, then Ruto's criminality is evident ..... Our's is nation of tribal enclaves, with tribal political issues, and so political rallies cannot be free of tribal rhetoric. . Come on amigo. Do you mean the pre-trial chamber committed the cases to trial only counting on foolishness among the facilitators of the crimes? if this was as trivial an argument as you state it, then we would have called Ocampo for his bluff when he promised that he had lots of water-tight evidence. There is security training going on all the time, but that is no a reason to anticipate violence. What I voiced was something that indicated an almost certain and immediate violence. Within no time people were cutting others' heads off like harvesting bananas. There was nothing to suggest to me in Sept that this could happen.
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Post by mank on Feb 10, 2014 0:34:44 GMT 3
...Within no time people were cutting others' heads off like harvesting bananas. ... It is for reasons such as this that I believe OTP would have had a much easier task if they had framed the case of RV violence as a case against ODM rather than Ruto ... but instead they even attempted to skirt around the ODM factor all together, in attempt to have only Ruto pinned by the evidence.
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Post by b6k on Feb 10, 2014 5:49:11 GMT 3
Otishotish, before you permanently clam up again, also a response to the bombshell in the Ocampo interview would be appreciated. The section I have in mind is when LMO said this: “There were some diplomats asking me to do something more to prevent Kenyatta or Ruto to run in the elections. And I said ‘it’s not my job’. Judges in Kenya should do that. And if they authorise them to run, people will vote. And if people vote for them, we have nothing to say” 1) In your adopted western home, is it illegal for a government official (diplomat) to attempt to influence an "independent" court process? 2) In your adopted western country is it illegal for your host country to attempt to interfere in the elections of a sovereign state? 3) Do you believe Ocampo failed the international community by not doing as he was told to ensure Uhuruto were not on the ballot once the Kenyan courts and the IEBC failed to do so? Feel free to answer the Matsanga questions along with the Ocampo ones in one mega "factual" response. Keep in mind your "fans" are banking on you to keep the NGO narrative alive
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Post by b6k on Feb 10, 2014 5:55:24 GMT 3
...Within no time people were cutting others' heads off like harvesting bananas. ... It is for reasons such as this that I believe OTP would have had a much easier task if they had framed the case of RV violence as a case against ODM rather than Ruto ... but instead they even attempted to skirt around the ODM factor all together, in attempt to have only Ruto pinned by the evidence. I agree. The ODM high command should've been in the the dock. I don't think Ruto ever made any comments about a certain region in the country being reduced to "Lesotho" even if RVP went out of its way to make it so. These ideas were endemic at ODM and cannot be blamed on one man alone.
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Post by mank on Feb 10, 2014 8:43:22 GMT 3
It is for reasons such as this that I believe OTP would have had a much easier task if they had framed the case of RV violence as a case against ODM rather than Ruto ... but instead they even attempted to skirt around the ODM factor all together, in attempt to have only Ruto pinned by the evidence. I agree. The ODM high command should've been in the the dock. I don't think Ruto ever made any comments about a certain region in the country being reduced to "Lesotho" even if RVP went out of its way to make it so. These ideas were endemic at ODM and cannot be blamed on one man alone. Oh my ... was I not late! I saw this Lesotho imagery only here on Jukwaa ... I assumed it was created here. How dare LMO then tell us that he went where evidence led him ?
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Post by podp on Feb 10, 2014 13:23:38 GMT 3
It is for reasons such as this that I believe OTP would have had a much easier task if they had framed the case of RV violence as a case against ODM rather than Ruto ... but instead they even attempted to skirt around the ODM factor all together, in attempt to have only Ruto pinned by the evidence. I agree. The ODM high command should've been in the the dock. I don't think Ruto ever made any comments about a certain region in the country being reduced to "Lesotho" even if RVP went out of its way to make it so. These ideas were endemic at ODM and cannot be blamed on one man alone. red high light likewise the PNU high command should've been in the dock...after all the one(s) who retaliates is(are) a cold blooded murderers as both our previous and current PORKs are most likely despite all efforts made to paint otherwise and demonize ODM The possibility of setting up a court to hear cases against PEV suspects has commanded priority attention from the Judicial Service Commission which issued a paper last year, describing how such a court would work. The court would be set up administratively by the Chief Justice and, if established, it would become one among various divisions that the Chief Justice has already created. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Queries-over-demand-for-special-high-court-division/-/440808/2197828/-/gv01wgz/-/index.htmland there in lies the 64M dollar question... The DPP, who would bring cases before such a court, has indicated that there is no evidence to sustain the prosecution of the thousands of PEV cases which his office has been investigating. The setting up of the court is unlikely to lead to a sudden discovery of the missing evidence. Of what use would the court then be? ...There is no political appetite for the prosecution of these cases. The conflation of trial arrangements for transnational crimes with the PEV cases is viewed as hedging for the possibility that no PEV cases may be presented before the division. In such a case, the inclusion of transnational crimes is a red herring, to cover for the possibility that no PEV cases may be forthcoming.
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Post by bkichwa on Feb 10, 2014 16:20:21 GMT 3
From the breakfast show on KTN this morning...some debate on the Kenya ICC case as it relates to the recent revelations by Ocampo in his televised interview (it is the 1st debate topic of the show).
As well, the reason is revealed for the clamor, by Jubilee, of the contents of the Waki Envelope to be made public.
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Post by mank on Feb 10, 2014 17:59:59 GMT 3
I agree. The ODM high command should've been in the the dock. I don't think Ruto ever made any comments about a certain region in the country being reduced to "Lesotho" even if RVP went out of its way to make it so. These ideas were endemic at ODM and cannot be blamed on one man alone. red high light likewise the PNU high command should've been in the dock...after all the one(s) who retaliates is(are) a cold blooded murderers as both our previous and current PORKs are most likely despite all efforts made to paint otherwise and demonize ODM .... Podp, there was no intention to demonize ODM as opposed to PNU in this argument. We were discussing Ruto's case only, having heard the evidence. If we had heard Uhuru's we would probably reach the same conclusion as you.
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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2014 11:42:11 GMT 3
I agree. The ODM high command should've been in the the dock. I don't think Ruto ever made any comments about a certain region in the country being reduced to "Lesotho" even if RVP went out of its way to make it so. These ideas were endemic at ODM and cannot be blamed on one man alone. red high light likewise the PNU high command should've been in the dock...after all the one(s) who retaliates is(are) a cold blooded murderers as both our previous and current PORKs are most likely despite all efforts made to paint otherwise and demonize ODM The possibility of setting up a court to hear cases against PEV suspects has commanded priority attention from the Judicial Service Commission which issued a paper last year, describing how such a court would work. The court would be set up administratively by the Chief Justice and, if established, it would become one among various divisions that the Chief Justice has already created. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Queries-over-demand-for-special-high-court-division/-/440808/2197828/-/gv01wgz/-/index.htmland there in lies the 64M dollar question... The DPP, who would bring cases before such a court, has indicated that there is no evidence to sustain the prosecution of the thousands of PEV cases which his office has been investigating. The setting up of the court is unlikely to lead to a sudden discovery of the missing evidence. Of what use would the court then be? ...There is no political appetite for the prosecution of these cases. The conflation of trial arrangements for transnational crimes with the PEV cases is viewed as hedging for the possibility that no PEV cases may be presented before the division. In such a case, the inclusion of transnational crimes is a red herring, to cover for the possibility that no PEV cases may be forthcoming. Mank, Najib Balala had a lot of interesting ideas back when he was in ODM's Pentagon. Today he's one of two (former ODM!) politicians who managed to make it into the Jubilee administration. If ever you needed examples of just how much our political class mirrors the high moral standard of the oldest profession in the world, look no further than that 180 degree turn by the two...& the subsequent adoption of them by their previous political foes for political convenience... Podp, of course there's no political will to honestly pursue the PEV cases as long as it's left to the ruling class to decide. Are you forgetting that soon after the GCG was formed the ruling class's focus changed from justice to which side could "eat" more than the other? Why rock the boat when you're busy slurping from the trough? That said there's no statute of limitations on murder & by extension, crimes against humanity (or high crimes as per the German judge). The Kenyan people can still demand justice for those aggrieved as long as they have the stomach to face the blowback that will inevitably point right back at them...
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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2014 11:52:19 GMT 3
From the breakfast show on KTN this morning...some debate on the Kenya ICC case as it relates to the recent revelations by Ocampo in his televised interview (it is the 1st debate topic of the show). As well, the reason is revealed for the clamor, by Jubilee, of the contents of the Waki Envelope to be made public. Bkichwa, some interesting revelations are made in the interview above by ODM Member #25, aka Tony Gachoka. 1) Kofi Annan was one of the western diplomats pushing for Uhuruto to be blocked, & 2) Raila Amolo Odinga features in the Waki envelope despite Ocampo's claim in his RNW interview to the contrary. Was Jukwaa's Daniel Waweru right all along that an amnesty was negotiated for the principles while their lieutenants were fair game for the ICC chopping board? Hmmm...
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Post by mank on Feb 11, 2014 20:24:34 GMT 3
Bkichwa, some interesting revelations are made in the interview above by ODM Member #25, aka Tony Gachoka. 1) Kofi Annan was one of the western diplomats pushing for Uhuruto to be blocked, & 2) Raila Amolo Odinga features in the Waki envelope despite Ocampo's claim in his RNW interview to the contrary. Was Jukwaa's Daniel Waweru right all along that an amnesty was negotiated for the principles while their lieutenants were fair game for the ICC chopping board? Hmmm... Wha ....wha what ..... I thought we were coming to the end of this ... apparently things are just about to thicken up.
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Post by b6k on Feb 12, 2014 7:08:36 GMT 3
Bkichwa, some interesting revelations are made in the interview above by ODM Member #25, aka Tony Gachoka. 1) Kofi Annan was one of the western diplomats pushing for Uhuruto to be blocked, & 2) Raila Amolo Odinga features in the Waki envelope despite Ocampo's claim in his RNW interview to the contrary. Was Jukwaa's Daniel Waweru right all along that an amnesty was negotiated for the principles while their lieutenants were fair game for the ICC chopping board? Hmmm... Wha ....wha what ..... I thought we were coming to the end of this ... apparently things are just about to thicken up. Mank, wacha tu! As Otishotish takes up his new project of peering into the bedrooms of French presidents past and present while doing his best rendition of "silence of the lambs" on all matters ICC, Karim Khan is in town. He confirms that he will also pursue the former chief prosecutor & have him answer questions in court as to how the investigations were conducted in the Kenya cases. He confirms his team has evidence of interference in the ICC process by western diplomats to ensure Uhuruto were not on the ballot. He also calls for an inquiry to be set up to investigate why things went so pear shaped with the Kenya cases lest the ICC loses its standing and good name. I paraphrase liberally so watch the video below... Ocampo in court you say? Sounds to me like the madman/triple murderer, Matsanga is vindicated yet again...
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 12, 2014 20:05:57 GMT 3
Mank, wacha tu! As Otishotish takes up his new project of peering into the bedrooms of French presidents past and present while doing his best rendition of "silence of the lambs" on all matters ICC, Karim Khan is in town. He confirms that he will also pursue the former chief prosecutor & have him answer questions in court as to how the investigations were conducted in the Kenya cases. He confirms his team has evidence of interference in the ICC process by western diplomats to ensure Uhuruto were not on the ballot. He also calls for an inquiry to be set up to investigate why things went so pear shaped with the Kenya cases lest the ICC loses its standing and good name. I paraphrase liberally so watch the video below... Ocampo in court you say? Sounds to me like the madman/triple murderer, Matsanga is vindicated yet again... This no longer sniper b6k in action. This is a studied machine-gunner strafing a pinned position, taking no prisoners! If Njakip is doing a rendition of 'silence of the lambs', then perhaps he needs time to collect his wits, as the battlefield suddenly looks differently formated. I would not mind Ocampo and Annan testifying, though I think it unlikely. Because Koffi Annan was always a fixer hired by external forces to bring sense and speedy conclusion to a messy backyard. Remember when the Kenyans frustrated him, Condoleezza Rice came to town, and read men the law according to super power USA. ---Wanjiku was further irrelevant. But if Khan insists, we could likely have an escalation from the OTP side too. Why not invite everybody to come and tell what they knew ---DGI Gichangi and his Mboys. May be we could end up knowing the truth! And truth is a very dangerous thing for a ruling class! Khan may be opening a can of worms whose stench he may not be able to control!
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Post by b6k on Feb 12, 2014 23:00:32 GMT 3
Mank, wacha tu! As Otishotish takes up his new project of peering into the bedrooms of French presidents past and present while doing his best rendition of "silence of the lambs" on all matters ICC, Karim Khan is in town. He confirms that he will also pursue the former chief prosecutor & have him answer questions in court as to how the investigations were conducted in the Kenya cases. He confirms his team has evidence of interference in the ICC process by western diplomats to ensure Uhuruto were not on the ballot. He also calls for an inquiry to be set up to investigate why things went so pear shaped with the Kenya cases lest the ICC loses its standing and good name. I paraphrase liberally so watch the video below... Ocampo in court you say? Sounds to me like the madman/triple murderer, Matsanga is vindicated yet again... This no longer sniper b6k in action. This is a studied machine-gunner strafing a pinned position, taking no prisoners! If Njakip is doing a rendition of 'silence of the lambs', then perhaps he needs time to collect his wits, as the battlefield suddenly looks differently formated. I would not mind Ocampo and Annan testifying, though I think it unlikely. Because Koffi Annan was always a fixer hired by external forces to bring sense and speedy conclusion to a messy backyard. Remember when the Kenyans frustrated him, Condoleezza Rice came to town, and read men the law according to super power USA. ---Wanjiku was further irrelevant. But if Khan insists, we could likely have an escalation from the OTP side too. Why not invite everybody to come and tell what they knew ---DGI Gichangi and his Mboys. May be we could end up knowing the truth! And truth is a very dangerous thing for a ruling class! Khan may be opening a can of worms whose stench he may not be able to control! Jakaswanga, if my brethren from "Lesotho" aren't vocal enough on Jukwaa, then let me temporarily take up arms on their behalf. Truth be told, it means I take up an armed struggle against my other brethren from Kericho ( Kaamama) as well as my shemejis from the lake. Such are the Kenyan "middle class" cleavages that OO once alluded to since WE ARE ALL ONE... Njakip is a paper tiger or lion since we are in Afrika. Anyone who denigrates their heritage and puts their adopted Odiero country on a pedestal ( kwani he was the one who got married or was he the one who did the marrying?) in the long run will have nothing but sackloth & ashes to reckon with. That of course, goes with gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair...if they have it. I do agree with you that the truth is a dangerous thing. When it comes to PEV, I still think most Kenyans decide not to face the truth. I used to believe the monster was Ruto (& his boss). Others believe the monster is Uhuru. Truth be told, the monster is you & me...the ordinary Kenyan going about his/her normal day to day biahshara...
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Post by mank on Feb 13, 2014 6:52:45 GMT 3
Wha ....wha what ..... I thought we were coming to the end of this ... apparently things are just about to thicken up. Mank, wacha tu! As Otishotish takes up his new project of peering into the bedrooms of French presidents past and present while doing his best rendition of "silence of the lambs" on all matters ICC, Karim Khan is in town. He confirms that he will also pursue the former chief prosecutor & have him answer questions in court as to how the investigations were conducted in the Kenya cases. He confirms his team has evidence of interference in the ICC process by western diplomats to ensure Uhuruto were not on the ballot. He also calls for an inquiry to be set up to investigate why things went so pear shaped with the Kenya cases lest the ICC loses its standing and good name. I paraphrase liberally so watch the video below... Ocampo in court you say? Sounds to me like the madman/triple murderer, Matsanga is vindicated yet again... Imagine those two having separate cases against you, when you have handled matters so irritatingly badly that it doesn't take smartness to point at your wrong ... in this imagination you are Ocampo and the two are Matsanga and Karim Ggkkhaan (his name makes me miss my eternally loved, but temporarily distant herb). Those are two loud moths you don't want shout about you when you are wrong. It's not a life to live! In a few hours we should be hearing the dismissal of the case against the son of Jomo ... I would be surprised if the suspense goes any longer. Lucky dog! it would be difficult for anyone to impress that the case did not help on the to the presidency, and now luck could be in his favor to demand reparation?
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Post by mank on Feb 13, 2014 8:42:29 GMT 3
Mank, there is an important point to remember. The decision to go to full trial was not Ocampo’s. He could believe whatever he wanted, but it was the Judges in the pre-trial chamber who had to satisfisfy themselves that, before the standards of the law they were using, the evidence supplied by the OTP-Ocampo was sufficient to commit to full trial. It is therefore, to me, more a case of Judges whose assessment of facts.. evidence.. were inadequate, below par (or compromised?) ... Unless the threshold in question is so minimalist anything goes. ----But fair is to say we had dissenter judges right from the beginning. Indeed amigo. But it was Ocampo to satisfy the pre-trial chambers that his team had sufficient incriminating evidence against the Ocampo boys. He did so then. What has changed is that the trial chamber has now seen the worth of Ocampo's evidence. So the question is, would the fact that OTP has so far not been able to look through bank records (something that was never in the horizon of the pre-trial evidence) lead the court to think there is more value to come through this OTP? By the way, why does Fatou expect bank accounts to show criminality? What if she actually finds huge movement of money from the account ... does she then expect the court to convict with that? Or is she fighting for an opportunity to start a different line of prosecution, with all new team of witnesses? I think only the latter would make sense ion her situation. Spontaneous is relative. Obviously there was a widespread urge to expel them. The question is whether that urge was created intentionally and whether the trial chamber can be convinced so. The witnesses have compromised the possibility of convincing the court of such. . The most credible allegation there is (credible since it is openly released to the public by someone involved) is that withdrawal is due to unwillingness to participate in coached witness evidence . Other allegations of witness intimidation cannot be corroborated. Interestingly OTP tried to tell us that Kabutu recanted his evidence due to intimidation ... but we had the man's clip telling us a different and more compelling reason... and if you listen to witnesses the appearance of coaching is at the surface .... which gives the defense lawyers such an easy time chewing the evidence into paste then spitting it. ... may be so. All the more the reason Kenyans should be disappointed with OTP ... why is it possible to get a few willing liars and not one witness who actually tells the incriminating story as it were? . If only OTP made a genuine attempt to get to the truth rather than seeming to "know who is guilty" and then looking for people who could give the necessary "evidence" .... like I have said severally before, why has the guy who sprinkled the Kiambaa church with fuel mot been summoned and challenged to show that he was not so on command? A prosecution that knows how difficult it is to harvest incriminating evidence from indirect speeches might have found this rather a direct route to evidence .... but they chose only to argue of linkages between the murderer and their suspect. Is that really evidence? . That is exactly what I had in mind when I said that "spontaneous" is relative. In my view, tribal rhetoric is not necessarily criminal ... the people who act criminally, unionized by that tribal rhetoric, are directly criminally liable. That is why, to me, getting to the individuals who torched a church is more important than establishing that Ruto spoke in parables at meetings. If we establish a command from Riot, then Ruto's criminality is evident ..... Our's is nation of tribal enclaves, with tribal political issues, and so political rallies cannot be free of tribal rhetoric. . Come on amigo. Do you mean the pre-trial chamber committed the cases to trial only counting on foolishness among the facilitators of the crimes? if this was as trivial an argument as you state it, then we would have called Ocampo for his bluff when he promised that he had lots of water-tight evidence. There is security training going on all the time, but that is no a reason to anticipate violence. What I voiced was something that indicated an almost certain and immediate violence. Within no time people were cutting others' heads off like harvesting bananas. There was nothing to suggest to me in Sept that this could happen. Mank, there is an important point to remember. The decision to go to full trial was not Ocampo’s. He could believe whatever he wanted, but it was the Judges in the pre-trial chamber who had to satisfisfy themselves that, before the standards of the law they were using, the evidence supplied by the OTP-Ocampo was sufficient to commit to full trial. It is therefore, to me, more a case of Judges whose assessment of facts.. evidence.. were inadequate, below par (or compromised?) ... Unless the threshold in question is so minimalist anything goes. ----But fair is to say we had dissenter judges right from the beginning. Amigo Jakaswanga, Here is more ...
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Post by b6k on Feb 14, 2014 0:21:27 GMT 3
Mank, wacha tu! As Otishotish takes up his new project of peering into the bedrooms of French presidents past and present while doing his best rendition of "silence of the lambs" on all matters ICC, Karim Khan is in town. He confirms that he will also pursue the former chief prosecutor & have him answer questions in court as to how the investigations were conducted in the Kenya cases. He confirms his team has evidence of interference in the ICC process by western diplomats to ensure Uhuruto were not on the ballot. He also calls for an inquiry to be set up to investigate why things went so pear shaped with the Kenya cases lest the ICC loses its standing and good name. I paraphrase liberally so watch the video below... Ocampo in court you say? Sounds to me like the madman/triple murderer, Matsanga is vindicated yet again... Imagine those two having separate cases against you, when you have handled matters so irritatingly badly that it doesn't take smartness to point at your wrong ... in this imagination you are Ocampo and the two are Matsanga and Karim Ggkkhaan (his name makes me miss my eternally loved, but temporarily distant herb). Those are two loud moths you don't want shout about you when you are wrong. It's not a life to live! In a few hours we should be hearing the dismissal of the case against the son of Jomo ... I would be surprised if the suspense goes any longer. Lucky dog! it would be difficult for anyone to impress that the case did not help on the to the presidency, and now luck could be in his favor to demand reparation? Mank, I seriously doubt Ocampo will be enjoying his retirement for long. Khan will make sure he accounts for what he has done (or not done) when it comes to investigations. If you watched Githu Muigai in court today you will note he at least earned his salary for a change. That said it doesn't look like the judges are prepared to dismiss the case just yet. They might even issue an ICC court order compelling the AG to seek Uhuru's bank records...a process that even the AG hinted could take weeks if not months since only a High Court initiated court order to the CBK & relevant banks will get the documents the OTP wants (& that is assuming Uhuru does not block the said court order). That said, let me try to get into your prophecy business and predict that Uhuru's charges will be dropped before his date with Obama at the White House in August 2014
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Post by mank on Feb 14, 2014 1:13:55 GMT 3
Imagine those two having separate cases against you, when you have handled matters so irritatingly badly that it doesn't take smartness to point at your wrong ... in this imagination you are Ocampo and the two are Matsanga and Karim Ggkkhaan (his name makes me miss my eternally loved, but temporarily distant herb). Those are two loud moths you don't want shout about you when you are wrong. It's not a life to live! In a few hours we should be hearing the dismissal of the case against the son of Jomo ... I would be surprised if the suspense goes any longer. Lucky dog! it would be difficult for anyone to impress that the case did not help on the to the presidency, and now luck could be in his favor to demand reparation? Mank, I seriously doubt Ocampo will be enjoying his retirement for long. Khan will make sure he accounts for what he has done (or not done) when it comes to investigations. If you watched Githu Muigai in court today you will note he at least earned his salary for a change. That said it doesn't look like the judges are prepared to dismiss the case just yet. They might even issue an ICC court order compelling the AG to seek Uhuru's bank records...a process that even the AG hinted could take weeks if not months since only a High Court initiated court order to the CBK & relevant banks will get the documents the OTP wants (& that is assuming Uhuru does not block the said court order). That said, let me try to get into your prophecy business and predict that Uhuru's charges will be dropped before his date with Obama at the White House in August 2014 ... ... apparently prophesying is easier than projection. I think the "good" court mislead my projection. I forgot it was a Githu Muigai day and focused on "status" meeting .... in my projection "status" meeting would result in dismissal. However when they start calling Muigai to explain why he would not do this or that, you know they are just prolonging their sitting sessions. They will probably have another status session for further interviews with the prosecution ..... well, am just making wild guesses here ... whatever else they can schedule to keep the project alive. .... I have watched only part of the session, and I do agree, the man earned his keep today.
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Post by b6k on Feb 14, 2014 20:58:24 GMT 3
Mank, it's a pity you missed the Case 2 status conference the day before yesterday. You would've seen a very commendable performance from the victims representative, Irishman Gaynor. He really had nothing but good things to say about the prosecutors office. However, it was interesting to find out just what he thought of the OTP's investigations when he spoke candidly with his fellow countryman in The Irish Times. Here is what he had to say: "The key questions to which victims are demanding answers, says Mr Gaynor, is “why, after all these years, the prosecution has not yet collected sufficient documentary evidence (including cell-phone data, intercepts and official records) which, combined with testimonial evidence, would be sufficient to satisfy the evidentiary standards required at trial.”"www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/victims-of-2008-election-violence-in-kenya-outraged-at-delay-to-kenyatta-trial-1.1637822So while the victim's lawyer in public presents a united front between him & the OTP, in private he is as disillusioned as many of us have become with the performance of the OTP...
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Post by mank on Feb 21, 2014 8:22:50 GMT 3
Mank, it's a pity you missed the Case 2 status conference the day before yesterday. You would've seen a very commendable performance from the victims representative, Irishman Gaynor. He really had nothing but good things to say about the prosecutors office.... Amigo B6K, I have been spending my nights following this drama but I have not found this episode. What date was this? The latest circus tingling my nerves is the expert witness of the French guy ... the Mungiki expert .... . Ha ... I have to check the meaning of expert ... I doubt reading lots of lit on a topic and being able to recite theories and other forms of unsettled propositions should count as expertise for the sake of judicial process, but then that's what we got. I keep imagining myself giving witness evidence based on an econometric model ... I would be the first one to tell the chamber that it would be nuts to pin anyone on the basis of probabilistic relationships, however statistically significant. Hey, but guy is fascinating .. no denying it. The value of theories that he himself says are "theories", though, is beyond my imagination. I think I am 2 days behind, and I prefer to stay in the past ... don't break the suspense, or I will send my bill of all the popcorn to you, plus anything else my lawyer (yes, I have one of those learned friends ... in this case I presume "your learned enemy") may think you can be squeezed of.
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Post by b6k on Feb 22, 2014 10:48:08 GMT 3
Mank, it's a pity you missed the Case 2 status conference the day before yesterday. You would've seen a very commendable performance from the victims representative, Irishman Gaynor. He really had nothing but good things to say about the prosecutors office.... Amigo B6K, I have been spending my nights following this drama but I have not found this episode. What date was this? The latest circus tingling my nerves is the expert witness of the French guy ... the Mungiki expert .... . Ha ... I have to check the meaning of expert ... I doubt reading lots of lit on a topic and being able to recite theories and other forms of unsettled propositions should count as expertise for the sake of judicial process, but then that's what we got. I keep imagining myself giving witness evidence based on an econometric model ... I would be the first one to tell the chamber that it would be nuts to pin anyone on the basis of probabilistic relationships, however statistically significant. Hey, but guy is fascinating .. no denying it. The value of theories that he himself says are "theories", though, is beyond my imagination. I think I am 2 days behind, and I prefer to stay in the past ... don't break the suspense, or I will send my bill of all the popcorn to you, plus anything else my lawyer (yes, I have one of those learned friends ... in this case I presume "your learned enemy") may think you can be squeezed of. Mank, going by the date stamp on my last post that would've been the submissions given on Wednesday the 12th. If you look it up you will find that what he says there flies fully in the face of what he said to the Irish Times, in confidence, wink wink... I haven't seen much of what the French "expert" had to say on matters PEV save for the odd sound byte in a couple of news broadcasts (which I have also not been following to keenly of late). Suffice it to say, there are those amongst us who would take anything uttered by a westerner as the gospel truth. Some have even become railroad experts thanks to the University of Google...but I digress... You are more current than me on the ICC's latest. You should break it down for us here on Jukwaa As to your French expert, last time I checked, convictions in any credible court are won on the strength of the evidence, not by theories...
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Post by mank on Feb 23, 2014 8:01:35 GMT 3
Amigo B6K, I have been spending my nights following this drama but I have not found this episode. What date was this? The latest circus tingling my nerves is the expert witness of the French guy ... the Mungiki expert .... . Ha ... I have to check the meaning of expert ... I doubt reading lots of lit on a topic and being able to recite theories and other forms of unsettled propositions should count as expertise for the sake of judicial process, but then that's what we got. I keep imagining myself giving witness evidence based on an econometric model ... I would be the first one to tell the chamber that it would be nuts to pin anyone on the basis of probabilistic relationships, however statistically significant. Hey, but guy is fascinating .. no denying it. The value of theories that he himself says are "theories", though, is beyond my imagination. I think I am 2 days behind, and I prefer to stay in the past ... don't break the suspense, or I will send my bill of all the popcorn to you, plus anything else my lawyer (yes, I have one of those learned friends ... in this case I presume "your learned enemy") may think you can be squeezed of. As to your French expert, last time I checked, convictions in any credible court are won on the strength of the evidence, not by theories... My friend, that's not necessarily true of the Rhineland club ... it is no regular court. There is not a whole lot. Since the French "myungykie" expert, there is this witness who attended several political rallies at which a number of bigwigs spoke (witness only identifies H. Kosgei & the man on doc, Ruto). HK and WR asked Kalejins to vote "one way.". they also rebuked the Kalejin for allowing "grass to grow even into their houses.". much drama was on whether wines said "grass" or "weeds.". I wish it was about the context ... but I trust we will hear of that next week when Khhhhhaaan and team are given the witness to devoir. That all I have amigo ... and I don't reply like reporting these things. Should we perhaps have a thread of real clips of this drama? I would be "most obliged" to start and attend to it. If there is interest.
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Post by b6k on Feb 25, 2014 18:13:10 GMT 3
As to your French expert, last time I checked, convictions in any credible court are won on the strength of the evidence, not by theories... My friend, that's not necessarily true of the Rhineland club ... it is no regular court. There is not a whole lot. Since the French "myungykie" expert, there is this witness who attended several political rallies at which a number of bigwigs spoke (witness only identifies H. Kosgei & the man on doc, Ruto). HK and WR asked Kalejins to vote "one way.". they also rebuked the Kalejin for allowing "grass to grow even into their houses.". much drama was on whether wines said "grass" or "weeds.". I wish it was about the context ... but I trust we will hear of that next week when Khhhhhaaan and team are given the witness to devoir. That all I have amigo ... and I don't reply like reporting these things. Should we perhaps have a thread of real clips of this drama? I would be "most obliged" to start and attend to it. If there is interest. Mank, you may not have many takers on yet another ICC thread. The "prochured" justice has lost its luster now that the cases hit the reefs and are fast sinking. When is the last time you saw the Uhuruto lynch mob on this thread? They have gone for "softer" targets. I did happen to watch the French "expert" online the other day. He wasn't too bad. The hilarious thing was having to watch the defence team and even Sang himself translate the Kalenjin phrases for the court. It seems the ICC had gone way overboard in ensuring no Kenyans would be in their translation teams to "taint" any evidence to the point they overlooked the non Swahili languages that could be quoted in the proceedings. Oh my, we really are being taught how to run a credible court...
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Post by mank on Feb 26, 2014 1:20:02 GMT 3
My friend, that's not necessarily true of the Rhineland club ... it is no regular court. There is not a whole lot. Since the French "myungykie" expert, there is this witness who attended several political rallies at which a number of bigwigs spoke (witness only identifies H. Kosgei & the man on doc, Ruto). HK and WR asked Kalejins to vote "one way.". they also rebuked the Kalejin for allowing "grass to grow even into their houses.". much drama was on whether wines said "grass" or "weeds.". I wish it was about the context ... but I trust we will hear of that next week when Khhhhhaaan and team are given the witness to devoir. That all I have amigo ... and I don't reply like reporting these things. Should we perhaps have a thread of real clips of this drama? I would be "most obliged" to start and attend to it. If there is interest. Mank, you may not have many takers on yet another ICC thread. The "prochured" justice has lost its luster now that the cases hit the reefs and are fast sinking. When is the last time you saw the Uhuruto lynch mob on this thread? They have gone for "softer" targets. I did happen to watch the French "expert" online the other day. He wasn't too bad. The hilarious thing was having to watch the defence team and even Sang himself translate the Kalenjin phrases for the court. It seems the ICC had gone way overboard in ensuring no Kenyans would be in their translation teams to "taint" any evidence to the point they overlooked the non Swahili languages that could be quoted in the proceedings. Oh my, we really are being taught how to run a credible court... No doubt, interest has dried up ... if only Khan would trip a little, or one of those witnesses bring more incriminating evidence, we might get a little more life here. But your's truly will keep at it for the commedy effect. Yesterday the short white fellow wanted to know what happens at Kalenjin circumcision ceremonies ... and first noted that the ceremonies are secretive but "... do you know what goes on there ... please tell us." Sang almost said "I object your honor." But he did not. He looked around for any help, but there was none. So the witness went ahead to tell them everything that goes on at those ceremonies ... and he knows it because his brothers have gone through the ceremony ... there is no limit to the creativity among these witnesses. One of Sang's lawyers has just about become fully booked up in interpretation for Sang's accusers
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