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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 8, 2015 17:43:06 GMT 3
I don't know if he was "fixed" or not. But this much I know:
(a) His lawyers, led by one Karim Khan claim that he was fixed.
(b) They claim to know who did it.
One can argue with all of that, but, presumably, they would say that they have seen the evidence and know where it came from.
Here is Mr. Khan, in ICC Document No. ICC-01/09-01/11-1466-Red:
That's Ruto's lead lawyer, Karim Khan, Q.C. The guy who's getting paid really big bucks to get Ruto off the hook.
(Note that the scheme was supposedly against ODM officials, not just His Deputy Excellency, so it's hard to see how people like Raila would have been involved in "assisting" the PNU lot.)
And here are some bits from Court Transcripts No. ICC-01/09-01/11-T-50-Red2-ENG ("Q" is one of Ruto's lawyers):
The Hon. M. Kuria appears to be claiming that he was Ms. Karua's assistant in the "exercise". That would fit the Defence's narrative.
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Post by jakaswanga on Oct 8, 2015 20:46:06 GMT 3
Otishotish,
Do you mean to ask who made the decision Ruto should be fixed? --Because we always knew the names of the agents (Gitau, Karua, Tarus, Iringo. But I assume these are arrand girls and boys, and they were operating at a level below decision-making.
I have heard this interesting story: Former DGI Gichangi ruffled alot of feathers from his hometurf. He did not want his outfit, NSIS, involved in fixing popular politicians. In fact he refused in official capacity. Then Mwai Kibaki agreed with him that it would be a 'stupid episode' to so 'partisanly engage' the national intelligence service! People like Francis Kimemia did not forgive him. That is how I explain his later dismissal in humiliating circumstances. The home boys never forgave his disloyalty.
But I will bet my d.ick. professor Nick Wanjohi will know who gave the order to fix Ruto.
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Post by podp on Oct 8, 2015 23:00:19 GMT 3
Otishotish, Do you mean to ask who made the decision Ruto should be fixed? --Because we always knew the names of the agents ( Gitau, Karua, Tarus, Iringo. But I assume these are arrand girls and boys, and they were operating at a level below decision-making. I have heard this interesting story: Former DGI Gichangi ruffled alot of feathers from his hometurf. He did not want his outfit, NSIS, involved in fixing popular politicians. In fact he refused in official capacity. Then Mwai Kibaki agreed with him that it would be a 'stupid episode' to so 'partisanly engage' the national intelligence service! People like Francis Kimemia did not forgive him. That is how I explain his later dismissal in humiliating circumstances. The home boys never forgave his disloyalty. But I will bet my d.ick. professor Nick Wanjohi will know who gave the order to fix Ruto.there is a site that GoK has tried to get the hosts said to be in Italy, close but it is still operating and has this headline."ODM: Here Are The Real Faces That Fixed Ruto At The ICC" tuko.co.ke/49410-odm-here-are-the-real-faces-that-fixed-ruto-at-the-icc.htmlthose two Principal Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government Mutea Iringo. Deputy President William Ruto’s defence Friday claimed Mr Iringo and the President’s advisor on political affairs Nancy Gitau recruited ICC witnesses to fix the DP www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/ICC-How-Mutea-Iringo-plotted-to-fix-Ruto-/-/1064/2356384/-/ei0e7j/-/index.htmldid deputy PORK applaud when Iringo was appointed PS first in Interior and Coordination of National Government and later when the stealing or rather the confidential accounts were unearthed he was transferred to State Department of Defense before being made to step aside by PORK. was the appointment a reward for fixing deputy PORK? ODM has called for the prosecution of the President's senior political advisor claiming she procured false witnesses against the DP and a journalist. National chairman John Mbadi said the advisor, Nancy Gitau, "worked with [Gatundu South MP Moses] Kuria to procure the witnesses". He said Kuria, who confessed that he bought off the witnesses, and Defense PS Mutea Iringo also helped frame DP William Ruto. - See more at: www.the-star.co.ke/news/odm-accuses-uhuru-advisor-nancy-gitau-iringo-helping-fix-ruto#sthash.H4aO2mqN.dpufnow over to the prayerful Jubilants "The proposed AU observations will seek to show that it is in the interest of African States that the ICC continues to uphold the highest standards of fairness in all its proceedings," said AU representative Charles Jalloh. Jalloh added that the AU wishes to make observations on whether Rule 68, as amended by the Assembly of State Parties, can be applied without hurting the rights of the accused. "The AU should be afforded the opportunity to proffer contextual information on the debate and resolutions of the November 2013 ASP pertaining to Rule 68," he said. "It is therefore appropriate to invite the AU to share additional perspectives and evidence on the negotiating context and amendments of Rule 68." - See more at: www.the-star.co.ke/news/au-seeks-be-enjoined-ruto-icc-appeal-against-recanted-evidence#sthash.3c6opJBy.dpuf lastly As politicians trade accusations on who “fixed” or did not “fix” the other, one voice critical to the 2007/2008 post-election violence and its aftermath is quiet. Sadly, this has been the trend since that terrible time more than seven years ago. Women who bore children whose fathers they do not know. Parents who lost their children in the most barbaric way. Children who were left orphans. Victims who were left with scars of the violence. Property owners and workers who lost their source of livelihood. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Spare-thought-for-the-real-victims-of-fixing/-/440808/2903522/-/rb0rs3z/-/index.html
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Post by kamalet on Oct 9, 2015 15:25:14 GMT 3
There is no doubt that witnesses were procured to fix people at the ICC and it is clear that this was done by both PNU and ODM so no one should be claiming they are clean.
The danger I see with all this name pointing is what it portends to rulings by the ICC especially when people start taking sides. The accusation in the Ruto case is not about what Kuria under the guise of PNU did, but perhaps the perceived silence or lack of support by ODM on behalf of Ruto. The letter to the UN by ODM is said to be proof of ODM conspiracy to drag Ruto under the bus.
Have we considered the impact of this name pointing in the event Ruto was convicted on national peace?
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Oct 9, 2015 17:20:02 GMT 3
There is no doubt that witnesses were procured to fix people at the ICC and it is clear that this was done by both PNU and ODM so no one should be claiming they are clean. The danger I see with all this name pointing is what it portends to rulings by the ICC especially when people start taking sides. The accusation in the Ruto case is not about what Kuria under the guise of PNU did, but perhaps the perceived silence or lack of support by ODM on behalf of Ruto. The letter to the UN by ODM is said to be proof of ODM conspiracy to drag Ruto under the bus. Have we considered the impact of this name pointing in the event Ruto was convicted on national peace? Kamale:I want to say without any fear of contradiction that these are issues we have pondered about as a nation and come to the realization that ICC is more dangerous to the country than anything else. Even CORD, has admitted as much but have in my opinion lacked the courage to go the extra mile and do the right thing. It is now known to everybody and accepted across the length and breadth of the country that, it cannot be said that the madness we witnessed from Mombasa to Eldoret, Kisumu to Kericho and Nairobi to Kakamega were masterminded and sponsored by Jushau Arap Sang and William Samoei Arap Ruto. That is why ICC should not be allowed to mess up our country in the name of justice. Look at Iraq, Syria, Libya etc where western intervention has been allowed to happen. I am sure we do not want to visit such sorry events on our country. It is high time we all went to the shrine and spoke the truth. CORD and Raila in particular should find the courage to confess what they did, we speak in one voice and bring these back home in one piece and peace. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by podp on Oct 9, 2015 18:05:42 GMT 3
There is no doubt that witnesses were procured to fix people at the ICC and it is clear that this was done by both PNU and ODM so no one should be claiming they are clean. The danger I see with all this name pointing is what it portends to rulings by the ICC especially when people start taking sides. The accusation in the Ruto case is not about what Kuria under the guise of PNU did, but perhaps the perceived silence or lack of support by ODM on behalf of Ruto. The letter to the UN by ODM is said to be proof of ODM conspiracy to drag Ruto under the bus. Have we considered the impact of this name pointing in the event Ruto was convicted on national peace? Exchange over ICC cases is a waste of time and does not help poor Kenyans www.nation.co.ke/oped/Letters/Exchange-over-ICC-cases-is-a-waste-of-time/-/440806/2905384/-/vak32jz/-/index.htmlso for non Kikuyus and non Kalenjins life will just move on. Jubilee was never their cake so they have nothing to eat or cry over. if we decide as a people on a local tribunal it would be nice and very good if we take a leaf from Germany after the end of their wars with their neighbors. Held for the purpose of bringing Nazi war criminals to justice, the Nuremberg trials were a series of 13 trials carried out in Nuremberg, Germany, between 1945 and 1949. The defendants, who included Nazi Party officials and high-ranking military officers along with German industrialists, lawyers and doctors, were indicted on such charges as crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. Nazi leader Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) committed suicide and was never brought to trial. Although the legal justifications for the trials and their procedural innovations were controversial at the time, the Nuremberg trials are now regarded as a milestone toward the establishment of a permanent international court, and an important precedent for dealing with later instances of genocide and other crimes against humanity. www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/nuremberg-trialsthis will see the likes of those who did 'smaller' crimes like rape, arson, looting etc. brought to book locally and that can be a good lesson for the foot soldiers never to repeat 2007/2008 type of post election violence. ICC is very good for the 'big' boys as Kenyatta and Ruto in Jubilee and Raila, Kalonzo and Wetangula in CORD must continue living knowing that they cannot pretend Eldoret Kiambaa church burning, the police shooting residents in Kisumu, Kakamega etc. and Naivasha families burnt in single rooms, slashed along the highways after being dragged from vehicles, the Mathari, Kibera etc slum killings can be done in their names and they ride the wave. One thing is clear though; whatever the falsity or accuracy of claims about Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto; they were never the best of friends anyway and nothing can change that; not even the eagerness with which the defenders of Mr Ruto and Mr Sang have roped in comedians and clowns to go and stage their brand-made-in-Kenya politics in The Hague courtroom and other theatres that may be willing to take the free shows. Read more at: www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000179086/will-uhuruto-weather-raging-icc-storm?articleID=2000179086&story_title=will-uhuruto-weather-raging-icc-storm&pageNo=2
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Post by podp on Oct 9, 2015 18:14:18 GMT 3
I want to say without any fear of contradiction that these are issues we have pondered about as a nation and come to the realization that ICC is more dangerous to the country than anything else. Even CORD, has admitted as much but have in my opinion lacked the courage to go the extra mile and do the right thing. It is now known to everybody and accepted across the length and breadth of the country that, it cannot be said that the madness we witnessed from Mombasa to Eldoret, Kisumu to Kericho and Nairobi to Kakamega were masterminded and sponsored by Jushau Arap Sang and William Samoei Arap Ruto. That is why ICC should not be allowed to mess up our country in the name of justice. Look at Iraq, Syria, Libya etc where western intervention has been allowed to happen. I am sure we do not want to visit such sorry events on our country. It is high time we all went to the shrine and spoke the truth. CORD and Raila in particular should find the courage to confess what they did, we speak in one voice and bring these back home in one piece and peace. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ in 2012 The ICC is currently working on seven open cases in Sudan, Uganda, the Democratic Republic of Congo, the Central African Republic, Kenya, the Republic of Côte d’Ivoire and Libya, with many more situations being monitored for possible further indictments. It took many years of law evolution, and a series of horrendous events to justify establishment of an international criminal court, however, based on the support it received, not only at the Rome Conference, but also the continued ratification by nations, it is evident that the need for the court is considered important by many nations. www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2012/03/23/international-criminal-court-successes-and-failures-of-the-past-and-goals-for-the-future/is it not nice that Uganda's M7 cannot become an Amin Dada and 'enjoy' those status now even as he continues running term after term after term? look at the South Sudan dividend that would not have been possible if Bashir was not check mated to visiting select African and Asian countries only otherwise Darfur would have degenerated and he would be attending UNGA with head held high. now like a rat he must do other things when fellow heads of state head to New York. do we have a new emperor Bokasa in Central Africa Republic? who wishes to reincarnate the cannibal? close home in Kenya, neither UhuRuto pair or anyone who will come after the duo will attempt to be a Mo1 or Kenyatta and pile us with unresolved murders of the likes we witnessed in Mo1 and Kenyatta hayati time. ICC is good if you emulate Tanzania, Botswana, Ghana, and other shining examples emerging in Africa but bad if you would like to return Idi Amin, Bokasa, Mobutu and other terrible 'big' men we had it would have been better sport if both Kenyatta (Muthaura and Ali) and Ruto (Sanga and Kosgey) trials had continued so that we see if it should also take in Kibaki and Raila so that like Ghana when Rawlings returned the 2nd time we get new local players in our political field and sweep away the foregoing. Fatou Bensouda, the chief prosecutor of the ICC, who is Gambian, has argued that the ICC is helping Africa by its prosecutions of criminals. "The ICC is working with Africa, and working for African victims, so I don't think the African Union should be against that," she said. www.bbc.com/news/world-11809908ICC is helping Africa by its prosecutions of criminals.
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 10, 2015 1:29:53 GMT 3
Otishotish, Do you mean to ask who made the decision Ruto should be fixed? That question is too huge for one like me. Mine is intended to be a much more modest contribution: We have a dog that, out of nowhere, is barking very loudly, but whose ownership is sharply contested. (We have even seen a " man woman bites dog" from an alleged owner.) So all I am suggesting is that after getting to the end of the short leash, one should look for handlers, and then ....
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 10, 2015 1:30:59 GMT 3
As politicians trade accusations on who “fixed” or did not “fix” the other, one voice critical to the 2007/2008 post-election violence and its aftermath is quiet. Sadly, this has been the trend since that terrible time more than seven years ago. Women who bore children whose fathers they do not know. Parents who lost their children in the most barbaric way. Children who were left orphans. Victims who were left with scars of the violence. Property owners and workers who lost their source of livelihood. My understanding of the view at the top is that if they have managed to wait for 7+ years, then surely they can afford to wait a bit longer while the country struggles to get Brother Samoei off the hook. Or maybe they are supposed to accept and move on?
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 10, 2015 2:47:04 GMT 3
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Post by podp on Oct 10, 2015 8:54:09 GMT 3
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Post by podp on Oct 11, 2015 8:47:47 GMT 3
[My understanding of the view at the top is that if they have managed to wait for 7+ years, then surely they can afford to wait a bit longer while the country struggles to get Brother Samoei off the hook. Or maybe they are supposed to accept and move on? But is this idea just myth and illusion for the lower classes? Edmond Burke argued that myth and illusion is necessary to keep the lower classes content with their meager lives, and to convince them to not go against traditional ways. gameofroles.wordpress.com/2011/12/13/the-american-dream-myth-and-illusion/GEMA and Kalenjin elites are trading the myth that jailing Ruto will result in dire consequences for Kenyans (rad Kalenjin and GEMA elites now in charge of Jubilee). read one of their own advance the case www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Jailing-Ruto-at-The-Hague-would-be-a-disaster/-/440808/2907920/-/o18cdq/-/index.htmlJM, Tom Mboya, Robert Ouko, etc and a plethora of other Kenyans have been killed, leave alone being jailed and did Kenya have a disaster. ICC has jailed a number of war lords including Charles Taylor do we have disasters? criminals need to be locked in
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Post by podp on Oct 14, 2015 16:39:56 GMT 3
“They have continued to speak about me in their rather boring so-called prayer meetings to sidetrack national attention from the collapsing economy whose fixing should be their first responsibility to Kenyans,” Nyong’o said. “Jubilee leaders fixed the elections to sabotage our democracy and to put the wrong people in power. They fix deals all the time to grab land, increase our foreign debt and plunge us into the worst economic crisis since independence.” Nyong’o said Jubilee leaders are now afraid the ICC is just about to expose their “fixing tricks that will no doubt lead to the collapse of their government”. “I am not going to be drawn into this fixing game. My mother always tells me never to argue with a fool, people will not know the difference,” he said. - See more at: www.the-star.co.ke/news/dont-argue-fool-nyongo-icc-fixers#sthash.PWX2pisi.dpuf
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Oct 14, 2015 17:07:48 GMT 3
“They have continued to speak about me in their rather boring so-called prayer meetings to sidetrack national attention from the collapsing economy whose fixing should be their first responsibility to Kenyans,” Nyong’o said. “Jubilee leaders fixed the elections to sabotage our democracy and to put the wrong people in power. They fix deals all the time to grab land, increase our foreign debt and plunge us into the worst economic crisis since independence.” Nyong’o said Jubilee leaders are now afraid the ICC is just about to expose their “fixing tricks that will no doubt lead to the collapse of their government”. “I am not going to be drawn into this fixing game. My mother always tells me never to argue with a fool, people will not know the difference,” he said. - See more at: www.the-star.co.ke/news/dont-argue-fool-nyongo-icc-fixers#sthash.PWX2pisi.dpufI have listened and read all the arguments advanced by CORD including their new catch Martha Karua since the pronouncement by Hon. Moses Kuria, and one thing stands out; they are trying very hard to run from their own shadows. For how long they will do this remains to be seen. Meanwhile, here is a walk down memory lane. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by jakaswanga on Oct 14, 2015 18:50:52 GMT 3
Otishotish, Do you mean to ask who made the decision Ruto should be fixed? --Because we always knew the names of the agents (Gitau, Karua, Tarus, Iringo. But I assume these are arrand girls and boys, and they were operating at a level below decision-making. I have heard this interesting story: Former DGI Gichangi ruffled alot of feathers from his hometurf. He did not want his outfit, NSIS, involved in fixing popular politicians. In fact he refused in official capacity. Then Mwai Kibaki agreed with him that it would be a 'stupid episode' to so 'partisanly engage' the national intelligence service! People like Francis Kimemia did not forgive him. That is how I explain his later dismissal in humiliating circumstances. The home boys never forgave his disloyalty. But I will bet my d.ick. professor Nick Wanjohi will know who gave the order to fix Ruto. Here is an alternative view, advanced by the ODM secretariat, on the evil role of former director of intelligence Michael Gichangi. Uhuru refused to show Ruto, his DP and political maker, the 'evidence' in his NIS file! That statement would better be false, for otherwise the writing is on the wall for all. Uhuru and Ruto are broke. One siamese twin is convinced he can live without the other! And, on the down side, these people who fixed Ruto, they do well to bethink themselves of the wrath of the Samoei, should he rise to succeed the son of Jomo. Show me the man who forgets and forgives that kind of treachery! (and I will show you a corpse!) Oh Nairobi! It is a capital broke! (but as in Old Rome, the city was burning but the nobility were busy discussing sexual scandals! --eventually a dictator had to come forward and put house to order!) Ruto says there is shortage of fools in Kenya!? I bet my d.k just like in Egypt, a military monster who overthrows this government which cannot pay salaries, would be mobbed in the streets like a rock-star! 50% of state income is spent servicing debt? there a dire shortage of common sense up there I dare say!
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Post by jakaswanga on Oct 14, 2015 18:56:53 GMT 3
Mwalimkuu,
Anyango Nyong'o gave 16 reasons why the cases should not be deferred, says that clip. The same Nyong'o says he isn't for arguing with fools. So I suggest you go through those 16 reasons and tear them down one by one, and see what the emiratus professor is worth ...
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 14, 2015 21:03:00 GMT 3
Is Kuria really just a mad barking dog? Why is it now that he has popped up with all this?
Karua is quite right in telling people to stop focusing on the dog and instead look for its owner and determine what he is up to. Kuria is indeed a barking dog, but he cannot be said to be mad, given that he is acting on Owner's Instructions. That makes him a good dog, not a mad one.
So what exactly is afoot here?
The importance of the timing is that the OTP has closed its case, and the Defense now has to put on a performance. As the lead Defense lawyer already indicated, a key part of their story is that Ruto was fixed by certain people. So we may expect that lawyers will be naming people and indicating how they supposedly fixed Ruto. All in public. And the people who will be named are not just people who know people: they are the people who are known by people who know people. It could be very untidy business.
Ruto himself was bought and paid for back in 2012/2013, and he went in having accepted certain realities. But not so his people, who might well take umbrage at the murky business once the "fixing" details start to emerge. They could easily demand that Ruto and their votes return to the other side.
So a part the message+claim+warning+whatever being sent, via the barking dog, to the RVs is this: "OK, we fixed your man. But everyone was involved in fixing him, so you really have nowhere else to go". Now, here's a very important about the we: Observe that, in contrast with Karim Khan's list of several names, the Barking Dog's list of fellow "fixers" contains only one name---Karua. Karua of course is now on the other side, but instead of simply burying her, why not have also be "useful". All these people are, of course, Good Christians People, always praying and so forth, and here is what Leviticus 16:22 says:
So another part is that the narrative is to be changed from "PNU did it" to "Karua did it, but we no longer have anything to do with her". (Poor, naïve Kuria was simply duped, by a powerful and strong-willed woman, into assisting; but he is now very sorry and asks for forgiveness.)
A side-benefit---but only a side-benefit---that many seem to be wrongly focusing on, is that they can also claim to be contrite (which they are not) and to be helping Ruto (which they are, by supporting a Defense narrative that could free him).
Beyond that, Ruto's problems are not really at the ICC, where he will not get convicted (given the mess with certain key OTP witnesses). His real problems are in Kenya, where some people have not forgotten some of the very nasty things his warriors got up to back in 2007/2008.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Oct 14, 2015 21:39:17 GMT 3
Mwalimkuu, Anyango Nyong'o gave 16 reasons why the cases should not be deferred, says that clip. The same Nyong'o says he isn't for arguing with fools. So I suggest you go through those 16 reasons and tear them down one by one, and see what the emiratus professor is worth ... I really do not have to go through the reasons one by one. The import of the sixteen reasons by the emeritus professor was that, the two amigos were criminals and very powerful in Kenyan and that, if the cases were either deferred or referred, it would give them room and reason to interfere with a process which ought to and should find them guilty of the accusations facing them. That is what the letter was saying. You can now see where Kuria is coming from. That, whereas PNU might have thrown the first stone, ODM threw the last and killer stone by creating a narrative at the ICC and among her benefactors that, the there was no way the accused could have been innocent. Remember, they were saying all these things about their own deputy, who could have doubted them, even at the ICC? ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by b6k on Oct 15, 2015 8:05:18 GMT 3
There is no doubt that witnesses were procured to fix people at the ICC and it is clear that this was done by both PNU and ODM so no one should be claiming they are clean. The danger I see with all this name pointing is what it portends to rulings by the ICC especially when people start taking sides. The accusation in the Ruto case is not about what Kuria under the guise of PNU did, but perhaps the perceived silence or lack of support by ODM on behalf of Ruto. The letter to the UN by ODM is said to be proof of ODM conspiracy to drag Ruto under the bus. Have we considered the impact of this name pointing in the event Ruto was convicted on national peace? Kamale:I want to say without any fear of contradiction that these are issues we have pondered about as a nation and come to the realization that ICC is more dangerous to the country than anything else. Even CORD, has admitted as much but have in my opinion lacked the courage to go the extra mile and do the right thing. It is now known to everybody and accepted across the length and breadth of the country that, it cannot be said that the madness we witnessed from Mombasa to Eldoret, Kisumu to Kericho and Nairobi to Kakamega were masterminded and sponsored by Jushau Arap Sang and William Samoei Arap Ruto. That is why ICC should not be allowed to mess up our country in the name of justice. Look at Iraq, Syria, Libya etc where western intervention has been allowed to happen. I am sure we do not want to visit such sorry events on our country. It is high time we all went to the shrine and spoke the truth. CORD and Raila in particular should find the courage to confess what they did, we speak in one voice and bring these back home in one piece and peace. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Mwalimumkuu, this is a spurious argument from you. No one has said WSR and Joshua arap Sang were the masterminds. In fact it's been blatantly obvious from day one when the Ocampo 6 were unveiled that ALL of them were at best lieutenants...at worst, patsies. But it is what it is and these were the Kenyans Ocampo saw fit to charge with crimes against humanity. I believe his hope was always that the accused would feel the heat and identify those they worked with in an ever widening circle of co-conspirators who would've been added to the O6. Alas it wasn't to be. They called Ocampo's bluff and 4 out of the O6 wiggled out of the court. And so now you're left with the Bensouda 2. Secondly, the Kenya ICC situation cannot compare with Iraq, Syria or Lybia. Kenya willingly took itself to The Hague. The countries you mention were never dragged to the ICC but were unjustly subjected to military invasions based upon baseless allegations such as WMD or being hotbeds of terror. As to why WSR finds himself in the ICC consider his own thoughts back in February 2009 in Ruto: Why I Prefer The Hague Route. Recall that Ruto himself was quite adamant that The Hague would take 99 years to get the wheels of justice in motion. Love it or hate it, the ICC has at least proved 99 years aren't as long as they were thought to be. Let's not lose sight of the fact that WSR finds himself in a personal pickle, or "personal challenge" to quote Uhuru, and it should not under any circumstance be extrapolated further to cover a certain community or Kenya as a whole for that matter. He has competent lawyers so let them argue out his case for him. Moving right along, of late I find the utterings of one Moses Kuria to be rather curious. His whole mea culpa on how he "fixed Ruto" or stitched him up to borrow Karim Khan's phraseology may lead down a slippery slope. Recently he admitted that he and Martha Karua fixed WSR at a meeting in Galileo Club, Westlands . Anyone with a decent memory would recall that this is one of the "PNU retaliatory meetings" according to the ICC narrative where funds were raised, some for victims others for...retaliation, and strategies organized. Kuria at the time was a PNU Spokesperson, not Martha Karua's Personal Assistant as he now alleges. Several other prominent Central Kenya figures were present at the same meeting. So when it comes to who stitched Ruto up, why would Moses Kuria highlight this meeting now? Has he ever heard of the law of unintended consequences? Wonders never cease... Anyway, I scoured the Jukwaa archives on what I could dig up RE the Galileo Club meeting. Back in 2011 a vibrant discussion place on this forum and Galileo was mentioned by Kamale himself Read that exchange on what remains possibly the longest thread on Jukwaa, "ICC Hearing live: Help!!!", back in the day when the fate of the victims of PEV still mattered more than that of the accused at the ICC below: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/5752?page=26
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 18, 2015 2:52:25 GMT 3
Once a criminal has been caught and taken to court, it is best to let justice take its course. It is hardly helpful to have a situation in which everyone is competing to show that they weep the most for the criminal and that their opponents love him the least. And it is a dangerous distraction when there are more pressing matters to be dealt with.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Oct 18, 2015 16:25:00 GMT 3
B6K and Otish,Here is Ken Wafula agreeing with Moses Kuria. I believe it is time for everyone else who is involved in this now obvious miscarriage of justice to come out and say exactly what they did. Like I said earlier, what we are witnessing now is what TJRC failed to do for us. We need these confessions followed by acquittals then forgiveness for the country to move forward. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by jakaswanga on Oct 18, 2015 17:53:55 GMT 3
in the beginning ther was the waki-report. I like to go back to this document, to have an idea where the train left the rails. It was a home-grown report.
THE WAKI REPORT:
[/i][/QUOTE] The idea that the ICC is a clear and present danger to Kenyan society is balderdash.
Why do I like the Waki report: it reveals a level of penetrative thinking which is not usual within Kenyan public discourse. Such depths become scary. Note that Waki has recommedations, prescriptions!
No politician will touch that! --Prayer rallies it will be!
We know ourselves, Kenya.
Mwalimumkuu: any names from the ODM who fixed Ruto!?
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Post by OtishOtish on Oct 18, 2015 20:26:10 GMT 3
About a month ago, the trial chamber trying the Deputy President made an additional ruling on his "no case to answer" motion:
* The page limit was extended to 100 pages. * The date was moved to the end of next week.
The Kurias et al are free to have their stuff included in the 100 pages. Instead of making noise all over the place, they can help the Defense bring the case to a quick end by supplying the names of their fake witnesses, the nature of their manufactured evidence, etc. In fact, Karim Khan, being the good lawyer that he is, is either already working with Kuria & friends to get all that, or he has already concluded that they are full of shite and is ignoring them. We'll find out when the motion is filed.
In the meantime, and until the judges indicate otherwise, we expect the trial to proceed in the normal fashion and for the Defense (and Client) to explain the nasty things that His Deputy Excellency & Friends did in places like Kiambaa Church.
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Post by b6k on Oct 19, 2015 9:45:20 GMT 3
B6K and Otish,Here is Ken Wafula agreeing with Moses Kuria. I believe it is time for everyone else who is involved in this now obvious miscarriage of justice to come out and say exactly what they did. Like I said earlier, what we are witnessing now is what TJRC failed to do for us. We need these confessions followed by acquittals then forgiveness for the country to move forward. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Mwalimumkuu, be it as it may, it remains up to the court to sift through the evidence and interrogate the witnesses it has before it. We cannot leave it up to the public gallery or worse yet a group of mercenary MPigs in Suswa to give WSR & Sang a verdict of innocence or guilt. Let the court process continue to its logical conclusion. Justice Osuji's recent warnings to Kenyans (like Moses Kuria) and the media specifically seem to point at possible action by the court against a few Kenyans in the near future. Whether some of the witnesses were procured will soon come to light. That said don't forget that West African warlord, Charles Taylor, was convicted on the strength of the testimony of ONE credible witness. WSR has nothing to fear if he believes in his heart of hearts that he is innocent of all charges and if, indeed, all witnesses were procured...
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Post by podp on Oct 19, 2015 10:49:14 GMT 3
in the beginning ther was the waki-report. I like to go back to this document, to have an idea where the train left the rails. It was a home-grown report. THE WAKI REPORT: The idea that the ICC is a clear and present danger to Kenyan society is balderdash. Why do I like the Waki report: it reveals a level of penetrative thinking which is not usual within Kenyan public discourse. Such depths become scary. Note that Waki has recommedations, prescriptions! No politician will touch that! --Prayer rallies it will be!
We know ourselves, Kenya.Mwalimumkuu: any names from the ODM who fixed Ruto!? you can say that again. When a prayer session is turned into a platform to insult and vilify others, then something is terribly amiss. How did we get to the level where places of worship are turned into political platforms? Are our politicians holy enough to preside over prayers and give sermons? If you want to hold prayers, go to church, not an open field. Implore the men and women of God to intercede to God on issues affecting the nation. Read more at: www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000179899&story_title=Kenya-leaders-hiding-behind-prayers-rallies-to-attack-rivals-preach-divisive-politicsRather than unite a country divided by bad politics and negative ethnicity, the prayers have succeeded in achieving the opposite; by evoking bad memories that would have been better left in the past. Politicians who are supposed to be a unifying factor are competing to tear the country apart through inflammatory statements and unsubstantiated claims that inflame tribal passions. Tribalism has been the country's bane since independence but rather than fight it, politicians are busy entrenching it. When they call each other Princes' of poverty and high priests of corruption, the inevitable outcome is hatred of fellow countrymen. Read more at: www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000180059&story_title=Kenya-here-s-why-we-need-to-pray-for-our-countrythe ground in Kamatusa land is shifting again. GEMA elites are again worried about the implications of the second exodus of their holloi polo from the Rift Valley hence their eagerness to paint RAO and by extension the Luo nation as Ruto fixers hoping that they will be the ones to be made to vacate Rift Valley by the now better armed Kalenjin warriors. The 529-page report, also known as the Waki Report, reads like a vision from hell. It is a capsule of tales of murder, arson, rape and unbridled man’s inhumanity against man — the darkness of the human soul laid bare. Women are gang-raped in front of their children. Some woman’s private part is opened up with a machete. This is meant to give the rapists easier access into that space. A man’s private anatomy is sliced off in its entirety, in front of his children. The eldest, a five-year-old, gets deranged. Long after his father is dead, the boy is still talking to him. He is asking, “Daddy, why have they cut off your thing? What will you be using to suss?” ...... The current war cries against CORD leader Raila Odinga at charged ethnic-based “prayers” are ominous and degenerative. They are the sorts of things that metamorphose into vendetta against a whole tribe. In the event that the worst happens against Deputy President William Ruto at the ICC, ordinary folk from his tribe could easily turn against their neighbours from Raila’s tribe, in proxy “retaliation.” For they have been told that he was the one “who fixed” their man before the ICC. Read more at: www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000179859/if-jubilee-leaders-are-sincere-about-saving-ruto-they-need-to-change-tackrather than ask why genuine IDPs from Burnt Forest are not being resettled on their land but instead carted to Trans Nzoia; why squatters from Mau Forest are being settled in Rongai in Nakuru county if they are from GEMA origins and Baringo county if they are from Kamatusa (Kipsigis to pin down the IDPs in Mogotio for example); the recommendations in Waki report must be bad reading for the Jubilants and like in KANU days defectors will be sought after as if they have became paragons of truth
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