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Post by reporter911 on Aug 15, 2010 7:07:08 GMT 3
No mank This is not about one egregious event but a littany of serial misadventures by ruto
That is just a fact. The ODM membership have accommodated ruto time ang again in the name of 'diversity of views'.
You are unable to generate even one specific act that ruto may have done to mitigate his ill advised serial undercutting of ODM t its knees.
Its time for him to go.
Should ruto be rewarded with a seat at the ODM table for constantly and loudly going agaisnt the ODM grain?
You are not a member of ODM and as such have no right to tell what ODM can or should not do. Yours is an illogical stand that even your best intellectual effort cannot honestly defend.
Tell me again why ODM should reward the litany of serial serious moves AGAINST IT by its one who claims to be its own member, i.e ruto? Try and some make sense please. PM, I will repeat something I have said severally already. I have absolutely no problem with ODM punishing Ruto if he has gone against the grain of his party. But if the grain of his party requires him or anyone else to vote against his conviction at a referendum, then I have a problem with that. You would have the same problem if we were talking of PNU or KANU or any party other than ODM. You have warned me that I have no business saying what ODM ought not to do. Is there any chance that you are a member of the PNU, the ODM, as well as the US GOP and Dem parties, all which you have commented on quite frequently? Party members discipline is a given when they are given tasks to do for their parties and instead turn round and do the opposite to harm the party then they must face disciplinary actions/ Confusing disciplinary action with Dictatorship is so lame, I guess it is propaganda slogans at best by those who think they can support ruto using back door tactics it is not working. I guess Ruto is preparing his departure from ODM party by registering a new party with his team and I wish him all the best, he is scared and is not waiting around to be disciplined by the party.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Aug 15, 2010 8:02:48 GMT 3
PM, I will repeat something I have said severally already. I have absolutely no problem with ODM punishing Ruto if he has gone against the grain of his party. But if the grain of his party requires him or anyone else to vote against his conviction at a referendum, then I have a problem with that. You would have the same problem if we were talking of PNU or KANU or any party other than ODM.
You have warned me that I have no business saying what ODM ought not to do. Is there any chance that you are a member of the PNU, the ODM, as well as the US GOP and Dem parties, all which you have commented on quite frequently?[/ First of all, if ODM is to discipline ruto it wont be because of his KATIBA STAND. For the umpteenth time, his multiple political felonies is basis enough for him to be disciplined. In fact one must gaze with amazement at how ODM has used kid gloves to handle ruto constant defiance. Yaani he says he is part of ODM but constantly wages war against ODM political aspirations. How do you reconcile that, with your 'dictatorship meme'? How many times must ruto go against the grain before ODM can legitimately, in your eyes, 'discipline' him for his errant ways? Which party can tolerate such high level dissent? You show me one, before you start bandying about disparagin terms like 'dictatorship' as a prefix to ODM. This is the same argument used by those forces against the Hon Prime Minister, that he is a 'dictator' that he does not allow politicians esp in Nyanza to go against his stands or party. its a tired retread of an argument as useless as the 'kehee' one. ruto's 'convictions' are known only to himself. You dont know them and neither do I. He keeps on changing positions on the KATIBA like one changes underwear. He was for devolution and parliamentary system in Oh-5, only to be swayed by jomo jnr and go for the PNU Presidential system, then he turns around and VOTES against what he negotiated for finally !!!. Where is his convictions? What conviction? As for commenting on PNU and other parties, I back up whatever it is that I say. If you dont think I am consistent, then you are welcome to point out those inconsistencies. If I cant back up whatever my comments are, I am MAN enough to say, hapo I concede that point and move on.
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Post by kamalet on Aug 15, 2010 9:15:57 GMT 3
Does it mean that if the Americans are doing it becomes right not withstanding the twisting of the examples to suit the argument?
Just who is it that set the rules in ODM and are they written or unwritten rules? When you talk of an ODM policy is this the whim of an individual or a collective decision of the party organs in a meeting?
When the Party Leader said that ODM supports the draft, was that his opinion or that of the party? My last question would then be, why did not ODM take action when the fallout started? Why now?
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Post by politicalmaniac on Aug 15, 2010 10:24:56 GMT 3
All these rhetorical questions apply to PNU as well?
Lots of heat and no light shed by these open ended questions.
Perhaps if it is known how they apply to PNU may shed light to the substance of the thread, and help get rid of the heat.
its stiffling!
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Aug 15, 2010 11:53:20 GMT 3
with some people responding to him as well...
Press Release: Post-Referendum and Party Discipline 3 messages Kasipul Kabondo <awachtin@yahoo.com> Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 6:51 PM Reply-To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com To: kca_main <kca_main@yahoogroups.com>, africa-oped@yahoogroups.com Cc: NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com, NVK-M MAGEUZI <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>, Mlalahoi <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>, kisumu@standardmedia.co.ke, mombasa@standardmedia.co.ke, eldoret@standardmedia.co.ke, kakamega@standardmedia.co.ke, abarasa@standardmedia.co.ke, digitalnews@nation.co.ke, newsdesk@nation.co.ke, bdnewsdesk@nation.co.ke
Post-Referendum and Party Discipline
After the much-talked about referendum was over, Kenyans in all corners of the republic of Kenya breathed a sigh of relief that after all the name calling and finger pointing, everything went peacefully. That’s what Kenyans have been yawning for. It’s therefore in order to congratulate those who spearheaded the YES campaigns and equally congratulate those who championed the NO crusade. Democracy requires that people hold divergent views even though they may come from the same party.
It’s against this background that a considerable number of Kenyans find it rather odd that the ODM party is calling for a disciplinary action on members of the party who had expressed contrary views to that of the party. I have said it many times that the referendum was not a party issue but rather, a national issue that required thorough reading, understanding and proper interpretation on how the new law will impact on your life and that of posterity before casting your vote. The call for disciplinary action by ODM is therefore naïve and borders on ignorance – it negates the very essence of a referendum; it’s a call that flies with its filth in the face of democracy yet it’s emanating from the very party which touts itself as the custodian of democracy in Kenya. I think ODM need to borrow a leaf from PNU which also had critics of the constitution but it’s now water under the bridge. There was no winner or loser in the referendum. We need to tolerate and accommodate all the views as a young democracy. We might think we are instilling discipline yet we are just destroying our party.
ODM as a party has been on a self-destruction-path just immediately after signing the national accord that paved way for power sharing. Most MPs in ODM lack proper judgment; they are intolerant and; are not ready for rational discourse. This attitude by mostly Nyanza MPs has alienated many supporters of the party from Coast to Kisii; and from Rift Valley to Eastern. Surely, how does ODM expect to get any national following after descending on all their support bases with such vehemence? Someone needs to advise the party that you cannot expect to run the party like “buch jodong aich” (baraza la miji kumi) and expect Kenyans to provide support again. That can only happen in Luo-Nyanza where people go with any euphoria and recollect themselves later after electing bad leaders. As a person from Nyanza, we need men and women who can transact business on our behalf with others from other communities – not characters who are hell-bent on alienating us from the rest of other Kenyans!
The hard-line positions being taken by some Nyanza MPs indicate that majority of these leaders badly need civic education. Some of these leaders are highly learned but lack education on how democracy works. They should understand that people will always have different opinions in a democracy and that is why Kenyans have been fighting for more democratic space in the country. It’s a pity that Nyanza leaders were at the forefront agitating for democracy in Kenya but a visit to my Nyanza backyard will tell you that Nyanza believes in a One-Party dictatorship – our people don’t believe in democracy! They called president Moi names and all sorts of epithets – but they are stuck in a one-party dictatorship. In short, our people have not understood the meaning of multi-partism! If they believe, you would have seen different results in the just concluded referendum. Anyone doubting I disagreeertions only need to check the way Nyanza voted compared to the rest of the country (even the Rift Valley which was the strong hold of NO), and you will agree with me that a lot of civic education is needed in Nyanza. Nyanza has many good leaders but our political culture (the culture of patronage and intimidation) has not allowed these sons and daughters of Ramogi to provide acceptable leadership. It’s the same bad political culture that some leaders are trying to export to the national politics. ODM will soon become a Luo party if some Nyanza leaders are not tamed!
Dr. Otieno Mbare, Finland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Otieno Mbare, P.hD (Econ & Bus.Adm) Research Fellow, Åbo Akademi University & Lecturer, Turku University of Applied Sciences Tel. +358 2 2154 095 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +358 2 2154 095 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +358 2 2154 095 end_of_the_skype_highlighting (off1)+358 2 2154 976 (Off) +358 40 5341 996
From: mauricejoduor@yahoo.ca <mauricejoduor@yahoo.ca> Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 4:37 AM
Otieno,
I read your piece and I have to say you need a lot of civic education t understand democracy and how organizations and workplaces enforce their rules àn policies. I'll give you my full reply later.
Courage Dr Maurice Oduor
Otieno Thank you very little for the whole A4 page posting. But with due respect. I am one person who has been previlleged to have worked with people who are your normal companions. With all the tittles, that I have seen you putting down as your credentials, Please dont purpot to be one when you are not. You need alot of education, on what you are saying. It leaves alot to be desired when a whole person with such I don.t know degrees, would take time to only tell us in this forum how bitter he is with his community. Something terrible is wrong with you and I dare you come to the podium with this kind of un founded hulla baloo statements and you will leave the place very shamellesly with your tittles which even after staying in one of the most racial country, you come here to tell us how our people are perhaps cloned to worship a segment of the society and cannot read for themselves. You are lost and any body who reads your sentiments will see directly that you are only imagining that you are in Finland. Try to read some past contributions and teach yourself from the very informed citizens of this country Kenya. You need to get those copies, print them, read and get the point clear, that you are out order. Jakasrime Kosoko N'djamena Chad
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Post by mank on Aug 15, 2010 18:40:37 GMT 3
PM, I will repeat something I have said severally already. I have absolutely no problem with ODM punishing Ruto if he has gone against the grain of his party. But if the grain of his party requires him or anyone else to vote against his conviction at a referendum, then I have a problem with that. You would have the same problem if we were talking of PNU or KANU or any party other than ODM.
You have warned me that I have no business saying what ODM ought not to do. Is there any chance that you are a member of the PNU, the ODM, as well as the US GOP and Dem parties, all which you have commented on quite frequently?[/ First of all, if ODM is to discipline ruto it wont be because of his KATIBA STAND. ....
You are contradicting what Namwamba and Any'ang Nyong have reported to be the party's plan of action. According to the information in the media, the 2 said that all ODM members of Parliament who were in the Red camp will face party sanctions. Why should we believe your word when it is negating that of the party secretary?This is exactly how discussions of ODM ethics reminiscent of those of old KANU go ... with see-no-evil ODM enthusiasts like you always discussing something else, other than that which is the topic of discussion. When you cannot defend ODM on an issue, you have the option of staying out of the discussion rather than trying so hard to make the discussion about something that it is not. Here is the source of the topic of this thread, and notice that the party talks of a group of people, not just RUTO. It is also very clear why the group will be punished, so again, why is your word better than that of the party secretary (if you cannot answer this you are simply making noise): ODM party secretary general Anyang Nyong'o addresses a media briefing after a parliamentary group meeting, August 12, 2010.The party resolved that disciplinary action will be taken against members of the party who voted against the new Constitution contrary to the party's position. HEZRON NJOROGE | NATION
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Post by mank on Aug 15, 2010 18:44:15 GMT 3
All these rhetorical questions apply to PNU as well? ...its stiffling! Perhaps. But PNU has not come out with a disturbing pronouncement, so let's stay focused on ODM which did.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Aug 15, 2010 19:06:37 GMT 3
ODM party secretary general Anyang Nyong'o addresses a media briefing after a parliamentary group meeting, August 12, 2010.The party resolved that disciplinary action will be taken against members of the party who voted against the new Constitution contrary to the party's position. HEZRON NJOROGE | NATION You know what? the Hon Prime Minister himself said during the run up to the KATIBA that the Ministers who went against the document will not be politically molested. I will pull up the link in a little while, i am on my way to transact spiritual business. ruto is a target for his serial flouting of ODM interests, time and again. That is what I know to be the position. Things will become clearer. Lets watch as this issue develops, and when the time comes for shoving and pushing, the articles of suspension will be much broader and not a single issue. I think I have said enuff
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Post by mank on Aug 15, 2010 19:22:02 GMT 3
ODM party secretary general Anyang Nyong'o addresses a media briefing after a parliamentary group meeting, August 12, 2010.The party resolved that disciplinary action will be taken against members of the party who voted against the new Constitution contrary to the party's position. HEZRON NJOROGE | NATION You know what? the Hon Prime Minister himself said during the run up to the KATIBA that the Ministers who went against the document will not be politically molested. I will pull up the link in a little while, i am on my way to transact spiritual business. ruto is a target for his serial flouting of ODM interests, time and again. That is what I know to be the position. Things will become clearer. Lets watch as this issue develops, and when the time comes for shoving and pushing, the articles of suspension will be much broader and not a single issue. I think I have said enuff Now you are talking. You do not even need to dig a link to what Raila said. That is what I would expect of him, and I would believe without seeing a link that he said so. Still, I have a problem with people like Anyang making utterances like what is the discussion here. Even if they have unspoken points to score with someone like Ruto, it bothers me that their mouths can utter things like "the party will punish those who did not vote for the constitution". I highly welcome the idea that Raila is not party to such thinking. To me, with leaders uttering such words with such ease, we seem to have gone many years backward in the 10th year of the 21 century. Now, noting the difference between what you report Raila to have said (and I can believe he did), then I wonder which is really the party's stand. What Raila said, or what the party secretary said.With that, I have said all I should say on the issue.
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Post by reporter911 on Aug 15, 2010 21:36:51 GMT 3
You know what? the Hon Prime Minister himself said during the run up to the KATIBA that the Ministers who went against the document will not be politically molested. I will pull up the link in a little while, i am on my way to transact spiritual business. ruto is a target for his serial flouting of ODM interests, time and again. That is what I know to be the position. Things will become clearer. Lets watch as this issue develops, and when the time comes for shoving and pushing, the articles of suspension will be much broader and not a single issue. I think I have said enuff Now you are talking. You do not even need to dig a link to what Raila said. That is what I would expect of him, and I would believe without seeing a link that he said so. Still, I have a problem with people like Anyang making utterances like what is the discussion here. Even if they have unspoken points to score with someone like Ruto, it bothers me that their mouths can utter things like "the party will punish those who did not vote for the constitution". I highly welcome the idea that Raila is not party to such thinking. To me, with leaders uttering such words with such ease, we seem to have gone many years backward in the 10th year of the 21 century. Now, noting the difference between what you report Raila to have said (and I can believe he did), then I wonder which is really the party's stand. What Raila said, or what the party secretary said.With that, I have said all I should say on the issue. Was there an issue? Big difference between disciplinary actions and dictatorship.. it boils down to all parties in Kenya in their mandates have clauses on how to discipline their members- ODM, PNU, Narc-K e,t,c and don't forget KANU which has on numerous occasions threatened to Discipline Uhuru Kenyatta! is that Dictatorship? or your propaganda peddling is only used towards ODM? I rest my case.
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Post by mank on Aug 16, 2010 10:14:26 GMT 3
Now you are talking. You do not even need to dig a link to what Raila said. That is what I would expect of him, and I would believe without seeing a link that he said so. Still, I have a problem with people like Anyang making utterances like what is the discussion here. Even if they have unspoken points to score with someone like Ruto, it bothers me that their mouths can utter things like "the party will punish those who did not vote for the constitution". I highly welcome the idea that Raila is not party to such thinking. To me, with leaders uttering such words with such ease, we seem to have gone many years backward in the 10th year of the 21 century. Now, noting the difference between what you report Raila to have said (and I can believe he did), then I wonder which is really the party's stand. What Raila said, or what the party secretary said.With that, I have said all I should say on the issue. Was there an issue? Big difference between disciplinary actions and dictatorship.. it boils down to all parties in Kenya in their mandates have clauses on how to discipline their members- ODM, PNU, Narc-K e,t,c and don't forget KANU which has on numerous occasions threatened to Discipline Uhuru Kenyatta! is that Dictatorship? or your propaganda peddling is only used towards ODM? I rest my case. Was there an issue? Only a hypocrite could pretend not to see it. The issue was that voices presumed to those of the ODM, in that they included those of the party secretary, were saying the party does not recognize the democratic right of individual members in the recent referendum, and that those who acted in the contrary were subject to party discipline. Perhaps you will agree there was an issue now that Raila has come to say that those voices have to retreat, perfectly echoing the correctness of my arguments? You can read the latest here: Raila declares Ruto's team welcome on board but...Prime Minister Raila Odinga has sought to cool rising temperatures within his Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) party, saying those who opposed the new Constitution at the referendum exercised their democratic right. ....
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Post by kamalet on Aug 16, 2010 12:07:00 GMT 3
Was there an issue? Only a hypocrite could pretend not to see it. The issue was that voices presumed to those of the ODM, in that they included those of the party secretary, were saying the party does not recognize the democratic right of individual members in the recent referendum, and that those who acted in the contrary were subject to party discipline. Perhaps you will agree there was an issue now that Raila has come to say that those voices have to retreat, perfectly echoing the correctness of my arguments? You can read the latest here: Raila declares Ruto's team welcome on board but...Prime Minister Raila Odinga has sought to cool rising temperatures within his Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) party, saying those who opposed the new Constitution at the referendum exercised their democratic right. .... Now wait to see how this twists itself in Jukwaa now that the PM has spoken!!
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Post by adongo23456 on Aug 16, 2010 13:37:04 GMT 3
mank,First of all I do not know why you are recycling a topic already live on Jukwaa and which as I can see has been thoroughly discussed in that thread. Someone already pointed out here that your topic is redundant. Check this jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4383So shall we assume that you shall keep on recycling the same at least a couple times a week? Personally there is nothing I can say on your thread that I didn't already say on the topic above. In fact there is already another thread on exactly the same topic here asking if ODM is now a dictatorship. So your s is the third one on the exact same topic. Kenya is a multi-party state now those who do not feel ODM is the party they want to be in are free to their own party anytime they want. This is not the Moi era where anybody who could not exist in Kanu was politically dead. As was reported somewhere else in Jukwaa, Ruto is already contemplating forming the RED"S DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENT, sounds to me more like Ruto Democratic Movement, but that is besides the point. Anyway you can keep on beating the drum but I think it would make more sense to just line them up under already existing threads talking about exactly the same point. Kamale,There is nothing Raila as the leader of ODM said that is new. He has been saying the exactly same thing ever since the results were announced. In fact Raila as the PM has even extended an Olive Branch to PNU and declared that the era of power struggles between ODM and PNU must be put to rest if the new constitution is to be implemented. Even before the referendum when some M.Ps wanted Ruto and co fired Raila said that will not happen because it is their democratic right to do so. So I don't know what the excitement is all about, but I can guess. One would think that of all the things happening in the country specifically with reference to implementing the new katiba there would be more important topics of discussion than ODM internal politics, but then again many Kenyans have been conditioned to believe that politics rotates around petty conflicts and personality clashes. I don't blame them. How could you in a country where political campaigns go on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months a year for decades nonstop. They finish one and the other starts without missing a heart beat. This is the scourge of the nation. Kenyans camapigns never end. Nobody ever loses. adoongo
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Post by adongo23456 on Aug 16, 2010 13:47:35 GMT 3
sorry fellas, I have fixed the spelling errors on the post above and made the correct reference to the previous thread. I make a mistake about that. thanks.
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Post by kamalet on Aug 16, 2010 16:04:26 GMT 3
Adongo
Yes the PM has previously talked about accommodation, but is that what the political minions in ODM were talking about when they started talking about throwing people out of party positions last week?
For now am daring the Nyongos and Namwambas of ODM to defy the PM who certainly read the Kenyan mood!!
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Post by mank on Aug 16, 2010 16:20:37 GMT 3
mank,
First of all I do not know why you are recycling a topic already live on Jukwaa and which as I can see has been thoroughly discussed in that thread.
Someone already pointed out here that your topic is redundant.
Check this
jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4383
So shall we assume that you shall keep on recycling the same at least a couple times a week? Personally there is nothing I can say on your thread that I didn't already say on the topic above. In fact there is already another thread on exactly the same topic here asking if ODM is now a dictatorship. So your s is the third one on the exact same topic.
Kenya is a multi-party state now those who do not feel ODM is the party they want to be in are free to their own party anytime they want. This is not the Moi era where anybody who could not exist in Kanu was politically dead. As was reported somewhere else in Jukwaa, Ruto is already contemplating forming the RED"S DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENT, sounds to me more like Ruto Democratic Movement, but that is besides the point. Anyway you can keep on beating the drum but I think it would make more sense to just line them up under already existing threads talking about exactly the same point.
Kamale,
There is nothing Raila as the leader of ODM said that is new. He has been saying the exactly same thing ever since the results were announced. In fact Raila as the PM has even extended an Olive Branch to PNU and declared that the era of power struggles between ODM and PNU must be put to rest if the new constitution is to be implemented.
Even before the referendum when some M.Ps wanted Ruto and co fired Raila said that will not happen because it is their democratic right to do so. So I don't know what the excitement is all about, but I can guess.
One would think that of all the things happening in the country specifically with reference to implementing the new katiba there would be more important topics of discussion than ODM internal politics, but then again many Kenyans have been conditioned to believe that politics rotates around petty conflicts and personality clashes. I don't blame them. How could you in a country where political campaigns go on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months a year for decades nonstop. They finish one and the other starts without missing a heart beat. This is the scourge of the nation. Kenyans camapigns never end. Nobody ever loses.
adoongo Adongo, I am not recycling anything. The thread you invoke here, though closely titled, talks about ODM being LUO party. That is not what I discussed here, and even as ODM damu folk tried to make this thread about Ruto I kept steering the thread to what it was about , namely the tendency to the KANU of the 80s. I would not have had the ability to steer into the material issue the thread you think is recycled. Now Raila has come and addressed the very targeted issue that this thread was about. Surely, what to win by invoking petty technicalities? Look through the forum and you will see many recycles that you said nothing about.
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Post by roughrider on Aug 16, 2010 16:19:23 GMT 3
Adongo Yes the PM has previously talked about accommodation, but is that what the political minions in ODM were talking about when they started talking about throwing people out of party positions last week? For now am daring the Nyongos and Namwambas of ODM to defy the PM who certainly read the Kenyan mood!! Kamale - Ruto and company will be welcomed to support implementation of Katiba. They do not have to be in the CIOC to be seen to be doing this. As you know, that committee can only allow a limited membership (maximum of 27) and many MPs want to serve their country. Others who are not chosen to participate in this committee can and will have ample time to air their views through relevant party structures and meetings. It is therefore very important to come to party meetings where policies and positions are debated and adopted. These views will be represented by the MPs in the committee. And Ruto knows a thing or two about faithfully representing his party in such a committee.
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Post by roughrider on Aug 16, 2010 16:53:01 GMT 3
Dear Mank;
You are a funny character. You think Raila is responding to you? Hahahaha. Seriously, Onyango has posted some very interesting views about party discipline and democracy for which you have no coherent response. Other Jukwaa people have similarly elaborated on these concepts. If your intention was to understand why it is ok and democratic for a party to discipline its members, then you have your answers, written in several ways by several people. What is more, if you conduct a scholarly study on this matter, you will get countless journal papers, academic texts and other sources that will shed light on what seems to trouble you.
My advice is this: start with the basics. What is your understanding of democracy? What about the role of parties in a multi-party system? Obligation of party members? Etc You may have a Eureka moment, yet.
As for William Ruto, his stated agenda is to ‘fight for amendment’ of the new law. This might require the establishment of another 27 member parliamentary select committee. He can move a motion on the floor setting this up: he can also seek his party support for this through the right channels. However, the CIOC is an implementation and not amendment committee.
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Post by mank on Aug 16, 2010 16:58:10 GMT 3
Dear Mank;
You are a funny character. You think Raila is responding to you? Hahahaha. Seriously, Onyango has posted some very interesting views about party discipline and democracy for which you have no coherent response. Other Jukwaa people have similarly elaborated on these concepts. If your intention was to understand why it is ok and democratic for a party to discipline its members, then you have your answers, written in several ways by several people. What is more, if you conduct a scholarly study on this matter, you will get countless journal papers, academic texts and other sources that will shed light on what seems to trouble you.
My advice is this: start with the basics. What is your understanding of democracy? What about the role of parties in a multi-party system? Obligation of party members? Etc You may have a Eureka moment, yet.
As for William Ruto, his stated agenda is to ‘fight for amendment’ of the new law. This might require the establishment of another 27 member parliamentary select committee. He can move a motion on the floor setting this up: he can also seek his party support for this through the right channels. However, the CIOC is an implementation and not amendment committee. Who said Raila is responding to me? You are the one who believes that what party puppets wanted done was discipline. I do not! Neither does Raila. Raila has basically vindicated me - not that he even knew I existed. He has said those who voted NO were exercising their democratic right ... and that is what I have been saying all along! Where does discipline come in that? Perhaps you should be correcting Raila, if you think his latest pronouncement is incorrect. Don't take me through Ruto and his adventures. I am not interested, at all. Just read my clarifications through out the thread, and including what Raila said.
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Post by mank on Aug 16, 2010 17:05:57 GMT 3
What lesson is to be learned in this thread?
For me it is loud and clear!
While most of us condemn Moi's dictatorship with a passion, there are enough amidst us that are willing to play puppets like the Shariff Nassirs and J J Kamotho's that were the construction blocks of Moi dictatorship.
All we need is someone to play Moi, and surely they have their wishful candidate only that we do not know the candidates willingness to return favour, and we will be perfectly where we were in 1988.
A new constitution on its own is not enough to avoid such an eventuality; in fact, like Moi put his construction on the aborted coup of Aug 1 1j982, these aspirants can build their own on transition to a new constitution! Kenya is watching the viper salivate on its twin headed tongue! Babylon shall not stand but wither.
God forbid, but reading back through this thread the characters are clear. Folks that are usually witty and clear of mind, on this issue sold their soul, to sugar coat political evils they have wittingly condemned in the past. Its such a shame, honestly.
I refuse to indulge in the little distractions some of them want to engage me in. Shame on those among us who want to be seen as warriors for political liberties, yet are unrepentant sellouts in the narrowest of opportunity. Shame!
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Post by adongo23456 on Aug 16, 2010 17:34:03 GMT 3
What lesson is to be learned in this thread?For me it is loud and clear! While most of us condemn Moi's dictatorship with a passion, there are enough amidst us that are willing to play puppets like the Shariff Nassirs and J J Kamotho's that were the construction blocks of Moi dictatorship. All we need is someone to play Moi, and surely they have their wishful candidate only that we do not know the candidates willingness to return favour, and we will be perfectly where we were in 1988. A new constitution on its own is not enough to avoid such an eventuality; in fact, like Moi put his construction on the aborted coup of Aug 1 1j982, these aspirants can build their own on transition to a new constitution! Kenya is watching the viper salivate on its twin headed tongue! Babylon shall not stand but wither. God forbid, but reading back through this thread the characters are clear. Folks that are usually witty and clear of mind, on this issue sold their soul, to sugar coat political evils they have wittingly condemned in the past. Its such a shame, honestly. I refuse to indulge in the little distractions some of them want to engage me in. Shame on those among us who want to be seen as warriors for political liberties, yet are unrepentant sellouts in the narrowest of opportunity. Shame! mank,I think you are beating yourself to a pulp for no reason. Kenyans went and voted very democratically and by 70% won the referendum for a new constitution. Now we have a bunch of losers like William Ruto, Arap Moi and his son Gideon talking absolute nonsense and when they are told off you cry about dictatorship. To begin with none of those folks even know what they are talking about. Moi wants president Kibaki and the PM Raila Odinga to somehow miraculously amend the yet to be promulgated katiba. To begin with that is not possible and secondly even after the new katiba is the law of the land, Kibaki and Raila cannot just amend it like he(Moi) used to do. The poor thing does not understand that era is over. I acn't blame. him. Ruto insists he will somehow miraculously force amendments and do all these other things he could not do as the campaign was going. Now he claims " a giantt" has been awoken. The "giant" just got floored really badly in a 3:1 vote by the masses of the republic a few weeks ago. What was the "giant" doing then? Sleeping? And now he is awake and we should all be shaking in our boots? Gideon Moi on the other hand is threatening people and talking about Rift Valley Province and how only he and some people whoever they are must control Rift Valley. Nobody has informed him Rift Valley Province does not exist. When we say defending these clowns in the name of fighting for democracy is absurd, you claim you are not talking about Ruto. So what the heck are you talking about? You cannot force people to support dubious campaigns and when they refuse you claim they are dictators? What happened to those other people's right to hold their own opinions and express them? Why are you trying to dictate that people must support you even when some like me are telling you that you don't make sense on this topic? Otherwise I think we are just going around in circles and repeating the same things that have been talked bout even in the previous thread I pointed out. What exactly is your point? I don't get it and I am not alone. adongo
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Post by kamalet on Aug 16, 2010 17:38:48 GMT 3
I do not think being told off is what this thread is about. It is the unfortunate threat of 'punishment' for exercising one's right to be clever or stupid (take your pick!) that forms the basis of the thread!
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Post by mank on Aug 16, 2010 17:55:22 GMT 3
What lesson is to be learned in this thread?For me it is loud and clear! While most of us condemn Moi's dictatorship with a passion, there are enough amidst us that are willing to play puppets like the Shariff Nassirs and J J Kamotho's that were the construction blocks of Moi dictatorship. All we need is someone to play Moi, and surely they have their wishful candidate only that we do not know the candidates willingness to return favour, and we will be perfectly where we were in 1988. A new constitution on its own is not enough to avoid such an eventuality; in fact, like Moi put his construction on the aborted coup of Aug 1 1j982, these aspirants can build their own on transition to a new constitution! Kenya is watching the viper salivate on its twin headed tongue! Babylon shall not stand but wither. God forbid, but reading back through this thread the characters are clear. Folks that are usually witty and clear of mind, on this issue sold their soul, to sugar coat political evils they have wittingly condemned in the past. Its such a shame, honestly. I refuse to indulge in the little distractions some of them want to engage me in. Shame on those among us who want to be seen as warriors for political liberties, yet are unrepentant sellouts in the narrowest of opportunity. Shame! mank,
I think you are beating yourself to a pulp for no reason. Kenyans went and voted very democratically and by 70% won the referendum for a new constitution. Now we have a bunch of losers like William Ruto, Arap Moi and his son Gideon talking absolute nonsense and when they are told off you cry about dictatorship.
To begin with none of those folks even know what they are talking about. Moi wants president Kibaki and the PM Raila Odinga to somehow miraculously amend the yet to be promulgated katiba. To begin with that is not possible and secondly even after the new katiba is the law of the land, Kibaki and Raila cannot just amend it like he(Moi) used to do. The poor thing does not understand that era is over. I acn't blame. him.
Ruto insists he will somehow miraculously force amendments and do all these other things he could not do as the campaign was going. Now he claims " a giantt" has been awoken. The "giant" just got floored really badly in a 3:1 vote by the masses of the republic a few weeks ago. What was the "giant" doing then? Sleeping? And now he is awake and we should all be shaking in our boots?
Gideon Moi on the other hand is threatening people and talking about Rift Valley Province and how only he and some people whoever they are must control Rift Valley. Nobody has informed him Rift Valley Province does not exist.
When we say defending these clowns in the name of fighting for democracy is absurd, you claim you are not talking about Ruto.
So what the heck are you talking about? You cannot force people to support dubious campaigns and when they refuse you claim they are dictators? What happened to those other people's right to hold their own opinions and express them? Why are you trying to dictate that people must support you even when some like me are telling you that you don't make sense on this topic?
Otherwise I think we are just going around in circles and repeating the same things that have been talked bout even in the previous thread I pointed out. What exactly is your point? I don't get it and I am not alone.
adongoEverything you said above is unrelated to the thread. Refer back to what Raila said and you will get the point . ... those who voted NO were exercising their democratic rights, and cannot be punished for it! All I have been saying is that those ODMers who wanted others who voted NO to be punished (trying to call a draconian temptation a disciplinary move) represent the mindset of a regime long cast into the trash pit. That summarizes what the thread is about. You are the one who is continuously and desperately repeating stuff that is of absolutely no relevance to the thread. Anyone who wanted to get the point has gotten it by now. Even the rocks have probably gotten by now.
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Post by mank on Aug 16, 2010 17:58:47 GMT 3
I do not think being told off is what this thread is about. It is the unfortunate threat of 'punishment' for exercising one's right to be clever or stupid (take your pick!) that forms the basis of the thread! Please say that again ... perhaps I am not using proper language that is why folks are not getting it.
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Post by roughrider on Aug 16, 2010 21:35:05 GMT 3
Now Raila has come and addressed the very targeted issue that this thread was about. Mank; I think you and I can engage on more constructive stuff. As Adongo points out, you are beating yourself to a pulp. Let's meet somewhere else and discuss issues. All the best
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