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Post by johns on Aug 16, 2010 22:26:54 GMT 3
Mank,
I want to draw your attention to something small you seem to be mixing up throughout the discussion. I am sure you can easily draw a distinction between firing of the rutos and co. from cabinet for exercising their democratic rights, with the issue of their inclusion in the membership of the committees that are assigned to shepherd the implementation of the new constitution.
I am wondering which of these two issues were you finding dictatorial if the wishes of the people you have referred to as the Nassirs of the modern day were to have their ways? I have been very clear where my beef with the No people lies and being in the cabinet is none of them because that i would find dictatorial as well.
I will reiterate my earlier stance that there is no way in hell the No campaigners should be given slots within the implementing body for the new constitution. Even the PM supposedly accommodation does not imply that the No campaigners must be given slots. What he said is; they should be on board and that mean they can play roles in their capacities as members of parliament as long as it moves the process forward. I think there is nothing wrong with that statement.
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Post by johns on Aug 16, 2010 22:37:33 GMT 3
Mank,
What some of us have been saying as far as the Rutos being in cabinet and their plans to continue being in it is; it smack of complete hypocrisy. How can people take them seriously when they go ahead and swear to defend the constitution; the same one they dont believe in?
Some of us are trying very hard to help the Rutos of this world gain credibility by continuously pointing the things they dont seem to see and also appeal to their conscience if they still have any. As a matter of fact they should be thankful.
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Post by merlin on Aug 16, 2010 23:14:35 GMT 3
Mank, I agree with Adongo, you are recycling the same subject in various threads. It is all about party discipline in ODM and it started by the curious behaviour of Ruto and the statements by ODM party secretary general Anyang Nyongo addressing a media briefing after a parliamentary group meeting, August 12, 2010.
I presume you are inspired by the term “Dictatorship” and like to colour ODM as a dictatorial party which could be the reason why you re-started a new thread instead of commenting on the thread ODM and the road to democratic darkness
The statement by the PM that those who voted NO were exercising their democratic rights, and cannot be punished for it is without question. However I see a difference between a personal conviction voting NO and running a campaign against the objectives of the party of which Ruto himself is a leading member. I am amazed about the leniency by which Ruto and his rebels are treated.
Adongo I agree with your statement: Kenya is a multi-party state now those who do not feel ODM is the party they want to be in are free to their own party anytime they want. This is not the Moi era where anybody who could not exist in Kanu was politically dead. However it is difficult to define what parties stand for. Has ODM clearly defined objectives to achieve or is it all covered by the term Democratic? Does ODM stand for progressive or conservative, for liberal or social ideologies or stands Orange for the opinion of Raila? Maybe there is no ideology and is Orange defined by daily events and decisions by the parliamentary group or party NEC meeting? Therefore supporting a party is a matter of perception. I only can presume what ODM stand for and this brings with it the admiration for the PM who becomes the main/ (single?) source of information about the party’s objectives.
However the PM has also personal objectives and everything is fine as long as these go in line with the party objectives. Problems occur when there is conflict of interest. I presume by 2012 the PM likes to become president. Will he stand firm for the objectives of ODM or willing to ’trade’ these for votes from ‘vote owners’ like William Ruto?
Defining party ideology and a political program limits the political freedom of the party and its leaders. Other parties will also misuse and demagogue the manifest and political program as we have seen with the proposed constitution. Many voters will be cheated and lied to and will not vote for the party although it could be to their advantage to do so. However the party will attract a stronger and solidity membership. Looking to the results of the referendum, it is probably a good time to move forward and take the risk. The majority of people have looked through all the lies, threads and demagogy and voted Yes.
Should we go for a strong party or is it the presidency we aiming for?
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Post by mank on Aug 17, 2010 1:45:47 GMT 3
Again, let me put this issue in context, then you can all have the pleasure of pretending that we are discussing what is in your minds.
The title of the thread is in the form of a question asking: "Is ODM for Party Dictatorship"?
Why was the question asked? Because ODM secretary, along with others, said that those who had voted "NO" in the referendum would be punished. This is the stand I have been questioning on this thread ... nothing more, even as different people tried to pull me into other issues.
You have all come saying that party disciplinary actions and dictatorship are different issues. No they are not different if the disciplinary action is taken against people whose only offense is exercizing their democratic rights. Raila has come to state the same. If you say I do not make sense, then you must also say that Raila does not make sense. Do you say so?
So what am I recycling, and in what part do I not make sense?
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Post by mank on Aug 17, 2010 2:26:18 GMT 3
Mank,
I want to draw your attention to something small you seem to be mixing up throughout the discussion. I am sure you can easily draw a distinction between firing of the rutos and co. from cabinet for exercising their democratic rights, with the issue of their inclusion in the membership of the committees that are assigned to shepherd the implementation of the new constitution.
I am wondering which of these two issues were you finding dictatorial if the wishes of the people you have referred to as the Nassirs of the modern day were to have their ways? I have been very clear where my beef with the No people lies and being in the cabinet is none of them because that i would find dictatorial as well.
I will reiterate my earlier stance that there is no way in hell the No campaigners should be given slots within the implementing body for the new constitution. Even the PM supposedly accommodation does not imply that the No campaigners must be given slots. What he said is; they should be on board and that mean they can play roles in their capacities as members of parliament as long as it moves the process forward. I think there is nothing wrong with that statement. Johns, I think you are mixing two issues: firing Ruto from government because the rest of government cannot work with him under the circumstances, versus a party punishing those who voted one way at the referendum. Under this thread I have only addressed the latter. There is a disctinction between firing someone because of sour work relations, and punishing members of a party just because they expressed a minority opinion in a otherwise democratic referendum. I have nowhere indicated that Ruto should not be fired from his ministerial post. Infact, while I refused to indulge in discussing Ruto or anyone else on this thread, elsewhere I indicated that it is within the 2 executives' rights to send home anyone they cannot work well with. That was somewhere in a discussion with TNK. Nyongo and Namwamba did not speak for the government when they said that ODM would punish members who voted NO at the referendum. It is this prouncement that has been my target on this thread, and their pronouncement was clearly that those of ODM who voted on the RED side would face disciplinary actions. I cannot believe I have been this ununderstood despite my attempts to highlight my concerns aside from what multiple responders seemed to be misreading. Does this change your take of my argument? If it does not, another question I would like to ask you is, do you find Raila to be irresponsible in stating that those who voted "no" were exercising their democratic rights? If you do not find Raila to be irresponsible in that statement, how could you find me to be saying anything wrong yet all my I have been doing on this thread was expressing outrange to earlier statements by ODM indicating that such democratic rights would not be respected rather those who expressed them would be punished? Notice that this discussion was essentially over when Politicalmaniac said that Raila had indicated somewhere that those who voted "NO" would not be molested. The only reason it resumed is because people came back trying to trash the issue. ... strangely they continued the trashing exercise even after Raila took back the pronouncement that I, like many other Kenyans, were outranged by.
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Post by mank on Aug 17, 2010 2:49:46 GMT 3
Mank,. ..The statement by the PM that those who voted NO were exercising their democratic rights, and cannot be punished for it is without question. All I was arguing was against an earlier statement by the party secretary that those who voted "NO" would be punished. How do you find me to be incorrect, yet find Raila to be correct when he affirms the same position I was arguing?I do, likewise - so where do we see things different? Namwamba and Nyongo, per report by The Nation, said jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=general&thread=4388&post=51058
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Post by mank on Aug 17, 2010 2:57:21 GMT 3
Now Raila has come and addressed the very targeted issue that this thread was about. Mank; I think you and I can engage on more constructive stuff. As Adongo points out, you are beating yourself to a pulp. Let's meet somewhere else and discuss issues. All the best RR, If this is a matter of a little misunderstanding, I wish to resolve it first.
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Post by rifema on Aug 17, 2010 16:24:02 GMT 3
I do not think being told off is what this thread is about. It is the unfortunate threat of 'punishment' for exercising one's right to be clever or stupid (take your pick!) that forms the basis of the thread! Someone said that ODM have been handling Ruto with a kids glove. And I agree to that, basically referring to what one would put as a long series of constant and consistent sustained effort by one William Samoei Arap Ruto to oppose the party (ODM) at any given slight opportunity. Voting 'NO' at the referendum notwithstanding (since that is his democratice right), Ruto's consistent attack on the very party he claims to be belonging to, seems to indicate that he could be having other intentions - other than what someone consoles him/herself with as "Ruto's convictions". He probably wants to consolidate and build his own political vehicle that will propel him grow his political career to greater heights. That is perfectly okay. In my opinion, his problem is THE HOW. He lacks structure, is in a hurry, lacks ideologies, is unsteady in his own beliefs and moves without considering the consequences. He is like playing pinky ponky hoping the waves will land him in the right hole. Ruto should thank his gods that the Katiba sailed through, he would now be like humpty dumpty. Before I give ODM my % advice, I will conclude that Ruto picked Raila's line of "rebelling" but capsized along the way. Someone here mentioned parties Raila has changed so far. From my analysis, Raila really never rebelled. This was a person who had a Political Vision of what he wanted, with a laid down plan, working on assumptions but at the same time having clear expected outcomes with clear timelines. I.e. time was not on his side and he therefore could not waste time (complaining, querreling, fighting, disparaging) a party that he felt did not have the capacity to carry out his ideologies. He simply moved out and on. Bishop Oginde could not have captured this better in his response when he was interviewed by Beatrice Marshall on KTN live on his stand on Katiba. Beatrice asked him whether he did not fear that most of his flock will stop paying tithes and probably withdraw from the church altogether. His response was quite clear: There is always a time for separation. He quoted Moses when he came from the Mountain and found his flock dancing around a carved lamb, there was a separation. He also quoted Elija and Joshua who at one point, separated with the group members and moved on respectively. What Oginde was telling (and particularly leaders) - Moses, Elija and Joshua were leaders - is that there should never be fear for separation, particularly when some members stray away from the vision. This is a principle that is applicable to even political situations where numbers count. This is the same principle Hon. Mwai Kibaki applied when he moved out and formed DP. He separated from KANU. There is alway a time for separation. I am convinced that Kibaki would not have achieved his political ascension had he spent (nguvu zake zote and akili yake yote) in KANU insulting, attacking, disparaging etc. He moved out and on. Secondly, and why I said that Ruto derailed long time ago, and also why I said that he lacks in vision, is that Ruto has been spending time energy, time, effort (querraling, insulting, disparaging and demonising) his supposedly party ODM and the person of one Raila Odinga. On the other hand, when Raila was disatisfied with his then party(ies) operations, he wasted no time but moved out, always ensuring that His ideologies were constant. I have followed this man's views since he moved from those so called parties and what amazes me is that he never at one point changed his ideologies. He only changed parties. Ruto can do a lot of good to himself by demonstrating that he indeed is a leader and move out if he feels that: 1. ODM cannot carry his ideologies for his political progress. 2. He is dissatisfied by his parties method of operations. When he spends all of the time fighting anything and everything that comes up in his party, it leaves a lot of doubt as to whether he really knows where he is going to. The one question one would ask is, Why is ODM giving itself to political manipulation? Now my advice to ODM. Never Never Never would Ruto and his team of Rift Valley people give you any meaningful support. You either agree with the bitter fact that you have lost them or live in delusion.
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Post by Luol Deng on Aug 17, 2010 18:17:53 GMT 3
I will start with a simple question to mank, If ODM cannot discipline members like Ruto, when and on what basis is it ever going to discipline its members?
Communication is a process in which the context plays a very important role. If a person is punished for a dissenting opinion, it would be out of step. If on the other hand, a person persistently disobeys the party then disciplinary action is in order.
For mank to imply that those who voted no are going to be disciplined is patently false. No one ever talked of those who "voted NO", it was a secret ballot and no one can tell who voted which way. The bone of contention is with those who were campaigning against the draft. Let us now bring the context and the history into play. The ODM members that were agitating for the NO vote are well known and to pretend otherwise is to be insincere. The effort was being driven by the Ruto group.
We had a case of the Mau forest restoration. Ruto was a part of the cabinet that okayed the process, once things got into motion what happened? We had him and the Kuttunys etc going to mobilise and incite the masses against the effort. This was a cabinet position, there was no record of a dissent of any kind from Ruto, but he undermined it anyway.
Bring on the constitution, there was an ODM position at the negotiations in Naivasha. What happened? Ruto and his sidekicks went to bed with Uhuru to scuttle the ODM position. Ruto was caught on record declaring that all the hurdles have been dealt with and the constitution shall be passed. Again, there was no record of a dissent from Ruto in Naivasha, he was in fact for the New constitution!
Onto the campaign period. After being initially being for the new constitution, Ruto for some reason turned against it. If he had specific issues against the constitution then it would have been understandable. What happened? He and his cronies went around the country spreading disinformation, some of it could be termed as blatant incitement. Now, if the incitement would have been taken to its logical conclusion with people losing lives, the mank types would have come here to say that ODM is a party that cannot control its members.
The bottom line is that the people who were agitating for a NO vote have been involved in every major rebellion in the ODM party and their latest case was being taken in relation to their previous conduct. You don't have to say everything if the people you are addressing know the context of the issue, humans are smart enough to tell what is happening.
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Post by tactician on Aug 17, 2010 18:25:29 GMT 3
I will start with a simple question to mank, If ODM cannot discipline members like Ruto, when and on what basis is it ever going to discipline its members? Communication is a process in which the context plays a very important role. If a person is punished for a dissenting opinion, it would be out of step. If on the other hand, a person persistently disobeys the party then disciplinary action is in order. For mank to imply that those who voted no are going to be disciplined is patently false. No one ever talked of those who "voted NO", it was a secret ballot and no one can tell who voted which way. The bone of contention is with those who were campaigning against the draft. Let us now bring the context and the history into play. The ODM members that were agitating for the NO vote are well known and to pretend otherwise is to be insincere. The effort was being driven by the Ruto group. We had a case of the Mau forest restoration. Ruto was a part of the cabinet that okayed the process, once things got into motion what happened? We had him and the Kuttunys etc going to mobilise and incite the masses against the effort. This was a cabinet position, there was no record of a dissent of any kind from Ruto, but he undermined it anyway. Bring on the constitution, there was an ODM position at the negotiations in Naivasha. What happened? Ruto and his sidekicks went to bed with Uhuru to scuttle the ODM position. Ruto was caught on record declaring that all the hurdles have been dealt with and the constitution shall be passed. Again, there was no record of a dissent from Ruto in Naivasha, he was in fact for the New constitution! Onto the campaign period. After being initially being for the new constitution, Ruto for some reason turned against it. If he had specific issues against the constitution then it would have been understandable. What happened? He and his cronies went around the country spreading disinformation, some of it could be termed as blatant incitement. Now, if the incitement would have been taken to its logical conclusion with people losing lives, the mank types would have come here to say that ODM is a party that cannot control its members. The bottom line is that the people who were agitating for a NO vote have been involved in every major rebellion in the ODM party and their latest case was being taken in relation to their previous conduct. You don't have to say everything if the people you are addressing know the context of the issue, humans are smart enough to tell what is happening. Luoldeng, I agree with you especially on the bigger picture. Let's admit it - the coalition between Raila & Ruto is over. They want to take different paths. Retaining Ruto within ODM will just make him grow more rebellious and infect others (coast, western, NEP etc). Throwing him out makes him a hero. Of the two choices, I would chose the latter - Ruto is not about to agree with Raila - the sooner banish him, the better, otherwise he will eat the party from within. How to go about banishing him is the issue!
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Post by mank on Aug 18, 2010 0:10:42 GMT 3
We are arguing different things.
Too many times I have said I am not opposed to ODM punishing Ruto ... but punishing him for voting "NO" is problematic. I do not know where you all are reading what you seem to be reacting to, because it is not what I have written.
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Post by tnk on Aug 18, 2010 2:40:23 GMT 3
We are arguing different things. Too many times I have said I am not opposed to ODM punishing Ruto ... but punishing him for voting "NO" is problematic. I do not know where you all are reading what you seem to be reacting to, because it is not what I have written. mank i think you are over-reacting here to language propagated by the media, and which unfortunately is very rampant in kenya.
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Post by mank on Aug 18, 2010 3:13:44 GMT 3
We are arguing different things. Too many times I have said I am not opposed to ODM punishing Ruto ... but punishing him for voting "NO" is problematic. I do not know where you all are reading what you seem to be reacting to, because it is not what I have written. mank
i think you are over-reacting here to language propagated by the media, and which unfortunately is very rampant in kenya. TNK, I think I get your point. And I could probably agree that I am overeacting to the way of reporting. Unfortunately I am not privy to inside info, so I go with what the media reports. Those responsbile for the announcement I am reacting to have not refuted what was reported. Infact they now seem to have been on one path, Raila on a different one. Let me share something with you ... those days when they were introducing varsity fees and we who were students then were making noise, Kibaki made a surprising utterance " ... you are complaining about Ksh xyz fees, we did not complain when we paid A (many times greater than 1) times xyz when we studied abroad" (not an exact quotation). My respect, and hence expectation, of Kibaki was very high till that moment, but after I confirmed that the man had said exactly that, I doubt I could have taken a bubble of oxygen from him if he was the only peddler of the gas in the whole globe. (I have never recovered from that, with respect to him, but that is beside the point). Forward to today. I have extremely high expectations, with respect to democratic rights, from anyone who suffered personal harm of any form of abuse under past dictatorships. So, when a man like Anyan'g is reported to announce that a group of people will be punished by a party for voting one way or another at a referendum, I am hard pressed to find a benefit of the doubt for the man. Even as I mellow down on this issue, I am still looking forward to hearing what Nyongo and Orengo actually had in mind. I do not believe they were misquoted. Needless to say, while my perspective on individual right to "yes" or "no" cannot be compromised, I also distinguish between exercising democratic freedoms and being a spoiler. So I do not oppose much of what folks have been saying here. But the argument has been like one person saying "it is an elephant" then the other says "NO, it is big". Two parallel arguments.
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Post by rifema on Aug 18, 2010 11:52:18 GMT 3
Mank,I presume you are inspired by the term “Dictatorship” and like to colour ODM as a dictatorial party which could be the reason why you re-started a new thread instead of commenting on the thread ODM and the road to democratic darkness [glow=red,2,300][/glow][glow=red,2,300][/glow]Even then, after a forceful repeal of the infamous Section 2A of the immediate constitution, and the inevitable advent of multi-party system in Kenya, several people, it appeared, wanted out but had no idea how. Yet some people (indeed most) looked forward to some sort of 'deliverance' from the KANU oppressive regime. It took the astuteness of one Akinyi's brother to point out issues that were not right and those that were against the democratic process. These issues raised by Amollo turned out to be the very ones that had indeed affected majority of people. Many were liberated by this brave act of Raila. There then, LDP was birthed which then metamorphosised into NARC. Ruto became a beneficiary. Back to Ruto's consistent bickering. Let us assume that in his bravity, he has raised issues he thinks are not right within ODM that are against the practices of democracy; Why pray, does he not manifest his bravity like Amolo did? Is it that he is still a boy? If you go back to Ruto and his allies, they've been bickering, bickering, complaining, and complaining. It started with the appointment of Mudavadi as DPM (as a result son of mulembe being Raila's running mate); then followed those Ruto claimed were arrested due to post election violence; before people could breathe, the crying of appointment of his people into the cabinet; then followed reclamation of Mau forest; and now the new constitution. There is actually no single project that has come that Ruto and his allies have not negated. I have never seen a people full of negative energy without coming out with a solution. I pen off lest I be followed for hate speech. .
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 3, 2011 11:30:30 GMT 3
ODM to discipline members who opposed lawI have made comments about this shocking revelation of the ODM mindset under other threads, but I think this is a significant issue that deserves its own thread. Jukwaa has consistently been against dictatorship. So I presume it would be against the spirit that seems to be gripping ODM. We are in a very dangerous position when people like Nyongo openly declare that individuals should leave their liberties behind when they join a governing party. It is a very dangerous situation when people in senior posts of a governing party openly champion party dictatorship at a time when a new constitution is just being adopted. From the happenings going on i.e. Member Expulsions etc it is evident the ODM has become a one man dictatorship party .
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Post by einstein on Mar 3, 2011 17:32:55 GMT 3
ODM to discipline members who opposed lawI have made comments about this shocking revelation of the ODM mindset under other threads, but I think this is a significant issue that deserves its own thread. Jukwaa has consistently been against dictatorship. So I presume it would be against the spirit that seems to be gripping ODM. We are in a very dangerous position when people like Nyongo openly declare that individuals should leave their liberties behind when they join a governing party. It is a very dangerous situation when people in senior posts of a governing party openly champion party dictatorship at a time when a new constitution is just being adopted. From the happenings going on i.e. Member Expulsions etc it is evident the ODM has become a one man dictatorship party . Aha! So ODM has evolved from a two, three, four, five six,....., infinity man dictatorship party to now only a one man dictatorship party! That is a hell lot of improvement. We should be congratulating ODM. At the above rate ODM will be soon a zero man dictatorship party! But what exactly is the meaning of a zero man dictatorship party? Does a zero man dicatorship party equate to a democratic party? In other words can you please explain the meaning of the expression 'one man dictatorship party'? Is there an expression like that? Just asking.
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 4, 2011 10:25:40 GMT 3
From the happenings going on i.e. Member Expulsions etc it is evident the ODM has become a one man dictatorship party . Aha! So ODM has evolved from a two, three, four, five six,....., infinity man dictatorship party to now only a one man dictatorship party! That is a hell lot of improvement. We should be congratulating ODM. At the above rate ODM will be soon a zero man dictatorship party! But what exactly is the meaning of a zero man dictatorship party? Does a zero man dicatorship party equate to a democratic party? In other words can you please explain the meaning of the expression 'one man dictatorship party'? Is there an expression like that? Just asking. Your question has been answered by Mr MIDIWO www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/Kenyanews/ODM-rebels-rubbish-expulsion-threat-11919.htmlMr Midiwo said they would deal with all rebel MPs who are against Prime Minister Raila Odinga. Mr Midiwo added:" Let it be known, that whether you are councillor or an MP and you don't dance to our tune, you will go."
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