Is ODM for Party Dictatorship?

[mank]

ODM to discipline members who opposed law

I have made comments about this shocking revelation of the ODM mindset under other threads, but I think this is a significant issue that deserves its own thread.

Jukwaa has consistently been against dictatorship. So I presume it would be against the spirit that seems to be gripping ODM. We are in a very dangerous position when people like Nyongo openly declare that individuals should leave their liberties behind when they join a governing party. It is a very dangerous situation when people in senior posts of a governing party openly champion party dictatorship at a time when a new constitution is just being adopted.

[mkenyan]

Aug 14, 2010 2:18:46 GMT 3 mank said:

ODM to discipline members who opposed law

I have made comments about this shocking revelation of the ODM mindset under other threads, but I think this is a significant issue that deserves its own thread.

Jukwaa has consistently been against dictatorship. So I presume it would be against the spirit that seems to be gripping ODM. We are in a very dangerous position when people like Nyongo openly declare that individuals should leave their liberties behind when they join a governing party. It is a very dangerous situation when people in senior posts of a governing party openly champion party dictatorship at a time when a new constitution is just being adopted.

I was totally shocked when some elements in ODM including Anyang Nyongo began behaving badly forgetting that we are in a new republic....where democratic space is abundant.
shame on them.....this shows that Anyang Nyongo and his god father Raila Odinga have never been Honest all along even as they made noise since the 1980's.

Obviously ,Raila is behind the new streak of Dictatorship and Moi like behaviour in ODM. Kenyans are lucky that Raila never became president(and will never anyway) since it looks like he would be worse than Moi.

[mank]

The fact that Raila has not spoken against the backward-to-Moism in his party mates leaves him seeming to be with them. ODM needs to sort itself out. It is a total insult to Kenyans to pretend to be a party of reformers yet spearhead a move back to authoritarianism we left behind more than a decade ago. I am surprised it is people like Nyongo and Orengo who miss something in that kind of government. Disgusting green snakes in the grass!

[okhunyanye]

jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4383

[reporter911]

Aug 14, 2010 2:18:46 GMT 3 mank said:

ODM to discipline members who opposed law

I have made comments about this shocking revelation of the ODM mindset under other threads, but I think this is a significant issue that deserves its own thread.

Jukwaa has consistently been against dictatorship. So I presume it would be against the spirit that seems to be gripping ODM. We are in a very dangerous position when people like Nyongo openly declare that individuals should leave their liberties behind when they join a governing party. It is a very dangerous situation when people in senior posts of a governing party openly champion party dictatorship at a time when a new constitution is just being adopted.

Surprising comments NOPE! what happened to "disciplinary actions" by a political party according to its rules or home disciplinary action by parents according to the rules in place or work place disciplinary action by employers according to work policies? lets take that route? are we to believe that by your comments on here if and when any disciplinary action is taken on a party member or if it is at work by an employer or if it is at home by parents, you turn round and call it "DICTATORSHIP"? what nonsense, it is but a big shame to even try and twist and post lies on here, it ain't working.

or is it that you are trying to twist and turn propaganda that won't hold up in broad daylight? using the "word" dictatorship" instead of " disciplinary action" by party which is what has been said by the ODM party members and quoted loud and clear in all Kenya newspapers and news media! in regards to disciplinary action?

I bet this is where you picked your"Democratic slogan" not surprising ..

[reporter911]

Aug 14, 2010 6:41:12 GMT 3 mank said:

The fact that Raila has not spoken against the backward-to-Moism in his party mates leaves him seeming to be with them. ODM needs to sort itself out. It is a total insult to Kenyans to pretend to be a party of reformers yet spearhead a move back to authoritarianism we left behind more than a decade ago. I am surprised it is people like Nyongo and Orengo who miss something in that kind of government. Disgusting green snakes in the grass!

I think you should look at yourself in the mirror instead of name calling others you might just be starring at " a Disgusting green snake in the grass!

Trying to throw mud at others will not change the history that has just happened in Kenya - maybe you need a reminder ON 4TH AUGUST 2010 KENYANS overwhelmingly voted a big yes for a "NEW CONSTITUTION" and that is the news of the century. you are lagging behind.

[mank]

Reporter,

I do not share your philosophy of equating political parties with employers. To employers we sell our labour and it is not our duty to restructure the employer, nor our choice to differ with the employer while we are still employed.

In contrast, political parties are groups held together by political views as to how governance ought to be. What ODM is showing is that its governance views are dictatorial - you leave your brain at the door of the party if you are going in. I am not the one suggesting this ... they are.

Now, you challenge my label of ODMs outbust as a dictatorial tendency. Think about this: if it were parties (rather than individuals) to decide whether we adopt the constitution or not, would we have held a referendum? NOpe ... we would just have required each party to disclose its stand "YEAH or NEAH". Just think about that. It would have been less costly than than the referendum, but Kenyans preferred the referendum because they understand what freedom really means.

Now, you have told me about what happened on Aug 4th. Where did I suggest I did not know that? Why do you think that is valuable information under this topic?

I had not seen the clip you just presented above. I think you are the one who needs it. I already understand what individual freedoms mean, and how irrelevant party choices are in a referendum, when they differ with individual choice.

[reporter911]

Aug 14, 2010 6:04:21 GMT 3 @mkenyan said:

Aug 14, 2010 2:18:46 GMT 3 mank said:

ODM to discipline members who opposed law

I have made comments about this shocking revelation of the ODM mindset under other threads, but I think this is a significant issue that deserves its own thread.

Jukwaa has consistently been against dictatorship. So I presume it would be against the spirit that seems to be gripping ODM. We are in a very dangerous position when people like Nyongo openly declare that individuals should leave their liberties behind when they join a governing party. It is a very dangerous situation when people in senior posts of a governing party openly champion party dictatorship at a time when a new constitution is just being adopted.

I was totally shocked when some elements in ODM including Anyang Nyongo began behaving badly forgetting that we are in a new republic....where democratic space is abundant.
shame on them.....this shows that Anyang Nyongo and his god father Raila Odinga have never been Honest all along even as they made noise since the 1980's.

Obviously ,Raila is behind the new streak of Dictatorship and Moi like behaviour in ODM. Kenyans are lucky that Raila never became president(and will never anyway) since it looks like he would be worse than Moi.

are you a mashada come lately? you seem to have picked a script from 2007 at beginning of election campaigns posted on some blogs against Raila as an individual. I remember the blogs getting very personal. where do you get to call others dictators when you have already decided who can not become the president of Kenya?

[reporter911]

Aug 14, 2010 7:12:58 GMT 3 mank said:

Reporter,

I do not share your philosophy of equating political parties with employers. To employers we sell our labour and it is not our duty to restructure the employer, nor our choice to differ with the employer while we are still employed.

In contrast, political parties are groups held together by political views as to how governance ought to be. What ODM is showing is that its governance views are dictatorial - you leave your brain at the door of the party if you are going in. I am not the one suggesting this ... they are.

Now, you challenge my label of ODMs outbust as a dictatorial tendency. Think about this: if it were parties (rather than individuals) to decide whether we adopt the constitution or not, would we have held a referendum? NOpe ... we would just have required each party to disclose its stand "YEAH or NEAH". Just think about that. It would have been less costly than than the referendum, but Kenyans preferred the referendum because they understand what freedom really means.

Now, you have told me about what happened on Aug 4th. Where did I suggest I did not know that? Why do you think that is valuable information under this topic?

I had not seen the clip you just presented above. I think you are the one who needs it. I already understand what individual freedoms mean, and how irrelevant party choices are in a referendum, when they differ with individual freedoms.

Mank

Address the issue? dictatorship vs Disciplinary actions that is the issue here.. are you trying to imply parties should have no discipline? we vote in Members of parliament to represent us the people of Kenya. These members form a party or join a party usually before elections or are already in previous parties, These same party members draw a salary after being elected by voters. political Parties also receive allocated funds through the government of the people of Kenya to run party matters.

are you trying to imply or say all these political parties and their members voted in by the people of Kenya have no rules of engagement or rules laid out for discipline action when members misbehave?

Please post here ODM, PNU, NARC- KENYA and other parties manifests on how to govern their individual parties, I'm dying to see the disciplinary action sections. We the people of Kenya pay for these members salaries who belong to different political parties and when they misbehave we vote them out at election time ( when they are not rigged back in through back doors)

If you are going to comment on dictatorship then call a spade a spade and mention all Kenyan dictators previous and current starting from Kenyatta then Moi after which come Kibaki! these are the leaders most Kenyans view as dictators, lets keep it real.

[kamalet]

Reporter911

Let us try something very simple here. There are just under 200,000 voters in Langata constituency. Very many of them voted for a man who today is the Prime Minister of the Republic of Kenya. The man also happens to be the party leader of the ODM Party, which also happens to be the party that sponsored his candidature for parliament as well as his failed attempt at being president of Kenya. Now this this affiliation to a political party is a legal requirement and the man could have belonged to another party - you and I know that the man has represented Langata under several parties including Ford Kenya, NDP, KANU, LDP, NARC and now ODM. These are a handful of parties, but in every election that the man has contested, he has had an overwhelming majority of the vote.

Using simple logic, it is clear that it the MAN that the people of Langata identify with rather than the party he belonged to. If we would like to talk about discipline then it is the voter who should mete this out rather than some party honchos behaving as if we are back in 1988. That is why Nyongo sounds very much like Okiki Amayo or Peter Oloo Aringo.

Having a difference of opinion within party structures is no licence to start talking about discipline and denial of parliamentary responsibilities. ODM must be seen to respect the people who gave it a the majority it claims in parliament - there is every likelihood it could lose this leadership position behaving like this!

[sheyumbe]

PoliticAl party structure must be respeced by all. In this case Ruto as a democrate must resign as a deputy leader of ODM. If he is not comfortable with the party leadership , what will be the honorable thing to do? ReSign ! Or else he should seek fresh mandate from the party top national delegate. Is he man enough to call for election of the ODM leadership. Wacheni masighara. Bwana ruto asijipe au kujifanya kuwa amewaongoza kundi la LAA nakijishindie kura walizopata. Asili MIA sabini za kura za laa zilikuwa za kanisa.

[Onyango Oloo]

ODM has a Right to Discipline its Members

Christine Baraza <[e-mail]> Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:35 AM

Reply-To: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail], [e-mail]

ODM as a political party has a right to discipline its members when they break its values, its principles and its mission and vision. It is inconceivable that ODM stand and watch as William Rutto and his MP supporters go round the country campaigning against the party that sponsored them to parliament and at the same time refusing to attend any ODM meeting and paying their monthly fee as Members of Parliament sponsored by ODM.

This is NOT ABOUT DEMOCRACY but about party discipline. A political party is formed for one reason-to capture and wield political power in order to serve the country and the people. There is no way William Rutto and his MP supporters can be nominated by ODM to represent ODM in Committees of the House when they have said in broad-daylight that they left ODM long time ago and continue to do the same in their political rallies in Riftvalley province and elsewhere. They too have refused to attend any ODM meeting besides with-holding their monlthy payments. Its JUST absurd that ODM has not gone ahead and written to the Speaker of the National Assembly that they are no longer members of the party.

ODM was poorly represented at the Naivasha discussions about the Constitution because William Ruto and supporters in PSC decided to go along with all proposals by PNU. This means that they were NOT REPRESENTING the party that nominated them to that crucial Committee. ODM has also suffered in by-elections because the William Ruto wing has bene pulling in a different direction and even campaigned for UDM in Ainamoi constituency though ODM finally won the seat. The group went ahead and campained for Omingo Magara of PDP in North Mugirango despite calling themselves ODM MPs. There is NO WAY ODM can rebuild its lost ground in Riftvalley with William Rutto and the group after they have openly and publicly declared that in 2012, they wil NOT BE IN ODM.

ODM must accept the loss of William Rutto and his MP supporters and start developing a strategy to win back the Riftvalley rather than holding on to the group which obviously will dissappoint them in 2012 in a very abrupt way that they wont have any time to court Riftvalley.ODM must start thinking of 2012 without Rutto. Its becoming seemingly very DIFFICULT to reconcile the Rutto group with the rest of ODM members. There is no way the ODM executive can remain silent when some members are wrecking havoc on the party and even telling grassroots members not to belong to the party.




--- On Fri, 8/13/10, Lordvick Otieno <[e-mail]> wrote:


From: Lordvick Otieno <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [YP_Ke] ODM DEMOCRACY
To: [e-mail]
Date: Friday, August 13, 2010, 9:19 AM

Kiprop,
Lee could not have put it more better.
Didn't Ruto and Jirongo challenged Kibaki and Raila to resign if NO wins the
referendum and why isn't Ruto not leading by example by just resigning from the
same Government he challenged to resign during his NO campaigns.
Must they be part of a process they so hard fought against including cheating a
community that they'll pay taxes for their animals and now the damage is done as
the same community is killing the animals to avoid paying taxes, as the dawn of
a new law comes to a reality.

On ODM, For Ruto, he never attends meetings of ODM organs, as they stopped
paying monthly subscription to the party kitty as other ODM MPs do.

They go insulting their party leader in their rallies with Kutuny the lead
vocalist and then claim he never won the 2007 elections, then why was there
violence in RV if he never won.

Democracy must be guided and not abused the way Ruto and cohorts go to the
extent of campaigning against their party candidates in by election to build
alliances for 2012.
Better few commited members than moles who damage the party unity from within.

Let him be man enough and resign like Raila did in 1997 and seek fresh mandate
from the people in UDM or which ever party they so wish.




----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Makwiny <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 11:17:19 AM
Subject: Re: [YP_Ke] ODM DEMOCRACY

Kiprop Simion,

I want to state here categorically that Ruto and co left ODM longtime
ago! They have been accommodated for a long time. They have not joined
(officially) another party because of Martha Karua's political parties
bill. I want to show you why this people left ODM and ODM must move
with speed to consolidate its support base!
1. They refused to support ODM candidate in Bomachoge - The day ODM
were campaigning for their candidate, they were launching a political
party in the name of PDP (People’s Democratic Party). Democracy demand
that they leave ODM and commit to this party!

2. They supported ODM opponent in the concluded South Mugirango
elections. These in itself deserve punishment. Otherwise, there is no
need for internal party disciplinary mechanism.

3. In Matiga election, they never supported ODM candidate, they
sponsored a candidate!

4. In the ensuing civic election, they sponsored and supported their
own candidates in their stronghold, but lost to KANU.

Democracy demands that one man, one party!

Just watch this space, we as ODM members, will embark on getting rid
of people who are not committed to the party. 2012 is around the
corner, and we will not allow them to pull a fast one on us. You are
either a party member or not.

You cannot make people kill dogs and cats with lies and expect ODM
members to allow you to remain the deputy leader

Thank you!


On 8/13/10, Kiprop Simion <[e-mail]> wrote:
> I don't understand the kind of democracy ODM is putting in practice.
>
> Punishing MPs who Supported NO!....
>
> Voting for YES or NO in the referendum was not a party position...these
> dictatorial tendencies are a threat to democracy.
>

[Onyango Oloo]

ODM DISCIPLINE

George mboya <[e-mail]> Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 11:58 PM

Reply-To: [e-mail]

To: [e-mail]

Cc: Mlalahoi <[e-mail]>

It is funny how we easily get mixed up. Ruto's is not a case of democracy or lack of it. This is a case of a messenger, sent by his party to fight for a cause and got mixed up on the way and fought his party instead. Ruto is not being punished because he voted YES or NO. Remember that Ruto was and still is the ODM key representative in the Constitution making process and so democracy though we talk about, he is not just a normal voter. He was there to push ODM agenda, which he did very well till the document was agreed on and indeed after Naivasha, he reported back to ODM and Kenyans that this was a good document.

Whereas he was free to vote the way he wanted, i have my doubts as to if he was right to oppose his party position given the responsibility he was given as a party leader for this very function to push the constitution agenda.

I dare say here that what Ruto did here in Kenya can not survive in the USA nor even the UK and other developed democracies. He would have been chucked by his party long ago and lost all his party positions and priviledges that come with such positions. I also dare say that church positions are even harder to go against. They will ex-communicate you very fast and so whoever supports him on this is a champion of impunity. I am sure that even in PNU he would not survive with such behaviour and still expect people to embrace, cheer and promote him for being democratic! What a joke!

Poor Kenyans, why feed ourselves with such dishonesty! No one, I say none can trust Ruto again with serious responsibility like this, cos he will take his democratic rights too far. He was a servant of the party who sent him with a specific message. Democracy or not he was to deliver the message not to distort it to suit his own interests. If he knew this was a task he could not perform, he should have resigned as a party rep and let the party choose someone else. The moment he stuck to this duty, he was duty bound and he failed miserably, and so the punishment. The party however, has a choice to forgive. But having a blanket argument that it was his democratic right is being dishonest because he was not democtratically elected in this position, he was selected by his party.

Just my thoughts.


Only when it is dark enough can you see the stars!!


From: Jectone Ndunya <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Cc: Mlalahoi <[e-mail]>
Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 7:34:40 AM
Subject: Re: [YP_Ke] ODM DEMOCRACY

Mr Lee. The said constitution that is about to become law does allow for Independent Candidates and Mps etc. It is not something to turn your eyes away from the fact that ODM has lost majority of its support- RV and to smile and dance to pending, if at all it will, expulsion of Mps from the RV who supported NO Side is being just not neive but tooo neive. Those calling and or chairing meetings calling for their expulsion and "Discipline" are themselves not candidates come 2012 they are not sure of their comback to August house come 2012, for this reason i disagree with ODM as a party on their stand regarding this matter.

have you lost it what happened in the first referendum? we are talking of consolidating Kenya to be one Nation and this can only be a reality if we are ready to allow each one of us to have his or her own stand on matters such as this. Those who rejected the Katiba are not dwarfs neither are they illiterate, we know of Medics, lawyers etc who were against it so they did so because they read and understood then took a stand and that is what H.E. The President preached all through.... Read.... Understand .... Decide... that was the creed then.

Please give Hon Ruto & co a break.

[kamalet]

The stated ODM position was the facilitation of a new constitution for Kenya. That was in its manifesto without a doubt.

But then what was the party position on what the constitution provided for? Was it any constitution at any cost? Perhaps this was the position that Ruto stood for, we must have a good constitution. Now Good is relative and this may have led to his disagreeing with the draft as presented. In fact ODM presented a raft of what it wanted changed in the constitution in a rather long memorandum that was posted here in Jukwaa. So it does appear that the ODM position was never that this was a perfect constitution that must be passed.

What then we ask is why at this stage is ODM feeling that these refusniks should be chucked out of the party and not when they declared their official opposition!

[politicalmaniac]

Not we, we who? but YOU MUST ASK

KEEP on keeping asking who gives a damm?

The baby was born and the taka taka birth water thrown by the wayside.

Take hiyo msemo and chew on it.

[mank]

The issue here is not about Ruto. ODM faithfuls are deflecting the topic just to sugar coat a sprouting dictatorship not unlike the nostalgic one under Moi's KANU. The issue is about shining light to the direction ODM, a governing party, is attempting to steer the nation. Parties can have their rules, but a party that forms part of the government cannot proposed dictatorial rules without attracting attention outside the party. The referendum was a forum for individual expression, not party expression.

If anyone broke party rules just by campaigning and voting against the new constitution, both events that are consistent with a referendum, then the question is not whether ODM has a right to discipline that person: the question is whether ODM, enshrining such governance principles, is anything different from Moi's KANU.

The Nation reports thus,

The party’s Parliamentary Group’s Thursday meeting resolved to lock out the all their MPs who campaigned and voted against the new law from the Parliamentary Oversight Committee, critical to the implementation of the new constitution.

We cannot condemn something when done by an oppressive KANU and then praise it when another party starts doing it. People can conveniently defend what ODM is proposing to do, because they dislike those on the receiving end, but still claim to disclike dictatorships.

If Ruto has broken party rules, rules he should be conversant with since he is a party member, by all means ... ODM can do to him anything the rules say. But if the rules are dictatorial, then ODM faithfuls should admit to it. You all know the standard to be applied in judging this - you applied it to KANU. So drop the hypocrisy.

[mank]

Aug 14, 2010 7:51:10 GMT 3 @reporter911 said:

... If you are going to comment on dictatorship then call a spade a spade and mention all Kenyan dictators previous and current starting from Kenyatta then Moi after which come Kibaki! these are the leaders most Kenyans view as dictators, lets keep it real.

Ok, since I think I have done it already, let me call a spade and spade, this time just to please you: KANU was a dictatorship under Kenyatta and Moi. That is how I know ODM is becoming a dictatorship because it is prescribing the very medicine KANU prescribed to tame individual liberties. Are you ok with another dictator, as long as we call the past ones dictators?

[politicalmaniac]

Aug 14, 2010 18:31:00 GMT 3 mank said:

That is how I know ODM is becoming a dictatorship because it is prescribing the very medicine KANU prescribed to tame individual liberties.

You asked a question and answered it yourself.

You have stated that "you know" ODM "is becoming" blah blah blah

Well ODM has not gotten there YET, the point of being a "Party Dictatorship" as you put it. All this is hyperbole as you shall see how I destroy your weak thesis below

BTW, kina ruto who I would love to see get out of ODM may form "Red Democratic Party".

So your question may be moot soon.

Like any private organization, ODM has the right to "discipline" its errant members. ODM exists for one reason only, to provide the ideal form of governance to the Nation. Now if there are errant members sabotaging ODM then corrective action needs to be taken.

And by the way ruto himself NEVER campaigned for ODM candidates, so how come he should be allowed to stay in ODM when its obvious he is working against ODMs interests? Does that make sense to you or are you oblivious to penetrating logic?

Not only that, but ODMs KATIBA postion was enunciated by ruto himself during the 05 RUN UP, and ruto was for ugatuzi/devolution and a three tier legislative structure plus a Paliamentary system. Going into Naivasha he morphed to the PNU position and the reason he abandoned ODMs position was because he conspired with jomo jnr at the last minute and overwhelmed the ODM position. They both wanted to screw around with the Hon Prime Minister who they thought would fight to the death for the Parliamentary system and say NO to the Naivasha deal.

The Hon Prime Minister did not play their game, and both jomo jnr and ruto and the handsome boy from Tseikuru lost the gamble. jomo jnr became a watermelon, and so did the janus faced boy from Tseikuru. ruto became a hard NO.

Having sold his soul to jomo jnr, jomo jnr abandoned him and left him hanging alone.

So why would a man who time and again, goes against the interests of ODM STILL WANT TO BE IN THE PARTY?

And does the party have no right to get rid of the internal saboteur?

You answer these questions and let me see how you navigate them and still hold the premise that ODM is headed the KANU one party way.

ruto has a choice, he can form the Red Party or reinvigorate UDM or even go back to baba na mama KANU,

[mank]

Aug 14, 2010 18:53:57 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

Aug 14, 2010 18:31:00 GMT 3 mank said:

That is how I know ODM is becoming a dictatorship because it is prescribing the very medicine KANU prescribed to tame individual liberties.

You asked a question and answered it yourself.

You have stated that "you know" ODM "is becoming blah blah blah a dictatorship".

Well ODM has not gotten there YET, the point of being a "Party Dictatorship" as you out it.

Its getting there though. The time to speak is now.

[job]

It's easy to carelessly throw around words, terms and phrases without putting them into context.

The framing of this question (thread subject) is highly misleading.

The phrase 'party-dictatorship' refers to dictatorship of a country, not by an individual, but by a governing party.

That's nowhere near what the poster probably intended in the first place.

But I guess, it's sometimes politically expedient to brandy words like dictatorship next to ODM, either tacitly for cheap political points or more vividly as a scare tactic.

In case the issue intended was - IS ODM FOR PARTY DISCIPLINE? - then the automatic answer is YES.

In all democracies (including the US), party discipline is always present.

What is not commonly exhibited in mature democracies is outright intolerance to dissenting views.

But there are always reward and reprimand carrots and sticks within each party mechanism that enforce discipline.

Party discipline is an important tenent of parliamentary democracies especially. But even in non-parliamentary democracies, party discipline is always present.

For instance in the US, congressional committee memberships & leadership are always doled out based on adherence to party policies and platform.

Any rebelious party member not observing party discipline (voting based on party position) is often denied crucial membership into important committees. That's just standard practice that ODM must adopt.

You cannot reward ODM members not loyal to the party platform with crucial parliamentary committee memberships. That would not be pragmatic. You cannot pander to political opponents perched within your party - that's self defeatist.

The Republican Party recently threatened Sen. Olympia Snowe with being kicked out of an important senate committee specifically for her support of President Obama's signature intitiative in healthcare reform.

Former Democrat-turned-Independent Sen. Joe Liberman (still caucusing with Democrats) was similarly threatened with sanctions including removal from a key Security Committee if he didn't toe the Democratic Party's position. To retain that important Chairmanship, he quickly beat a retreat and slowed on his Obama bashing rhetoric. He has recently voted with Democrats as per script.

Are those signs of dictatorship? Be the judge for yourself.

There were folks who never lifted a finger when real dictatorship was exhibited but are quick to carelessly tag misleading terminiologies that neither have bearing nor context.

ODM has not advocated for KANU-style explusions, suspensions and such...but the party must ensure that detracors and opponents don't mislead it into suppressing its democratically availed party whipping mechanism.

Any democracy student understands that a party must whip its members into certain positions. There are acceptable ways of dealing with dissent in a manner that still exhibits tolerance of different views. Appointment to crucial committees is one place where whipping plays a big role.

Folks like William Ruto must not sit anywhere near the Parliamentary Oversight Committee on Implementation of the Constitution, period! And that's how democracy works.

[mank]

Aug 14, 2010 20:53:40 GMT 3 job said:

It's easy to carelessly throw around words, terms and phrases without putting them into context.

Ok, let me put it in context then.

The context is, Kenya went into a referendum expecting every individual to vote either "YES" or "NO". But a party that shares the government with another is working on a plan to punish its members who voted "NO". That to me means that the party had taken a "YES" position, and individual "NO" voters would not be tolerated. That is the context.

Aug 14, 2010 20:53:40 GMT 3 job said:

The framing of this question (thread subject) is highly misleading.

The phrase 'party-dictatorship' refers to dictatorship of a country, not by an individual, but by a governing party.

Well, since I am not a political scientist I am willing to concede that the language I used may not be perfect. However punching linguistic holes into the thread does not take away the materiality of the question.

By the way, the issue under this thread is not about any particular individual. It is about the direction ODM seems headed with respect to individual liberty to choose. I am not sure what you were refering to when you stated that dictatorship is not about an individual but a governing party. THis issue is about a governing party - the title of the thread derives from:

The Nation Posted HERE

[/url]

ODM party secretary general Anyang Nyong'o addresses a media briefing after a parliamentary group meeting, August 12, 2010.The party resolved that disciplinary action will be taken against members of the party who voted against the new Constitution contrary to the party's position. HEZRON NJOROGE | NATION
[/size][/quote]

Aug 14, 2010 20:53:40 GMT 3 job said:

... In case the issue intended was - IS ODM FOR PARTY DISCIPLINE? - then the automatic answer is YES.

No, that is not what I intended to ask. It is dictatorial for a party to deny its members the right to exercise their individual rights; as I have said before, if the referendum was at party level we would have saved lots of money. We would simply have needed to know party memberships and then associated the total membership of each party with the party choice ... so ODM is planning to torment people for exercising rights that were given to individuals by the state.

We were unanimous when we we discussed such matters with respect to Moi's KANU. So it is a bit of a surprise that we differ now.

[politicalmaniac]

The question still has NOT BEEN ANSWERED, with the author playing hide and seek games like a cornered animal smelling defeat.

The question to be asked is as Job put it, IS ODM A PARTY OF DISCIPLINE?

ruto is a serial ODM protagonist. What do you do about this man who CONSTANTLY defies THE ODM CREED?

-ruto campaigned against ODM candidates in MANY BY ELECTIONS, AND YET HE STILL IS IN ODM? doing WHAT?

-ruto went against the the ODM postiion on Mau

-ruto and the KATIBA.

In O5' ruto articulated the ODM ugatuzi position with eloquence. Not even the Hon Prime Minister could match him. Then he hatched a plot with jomo jnr (who is busy saving his a$$ paying homage to the Hon Prime Minister yesterday) to scuttle that form of Govt and adopt a pure Presidential system. Then ruto having gotten that deal, turns around, and makes a 180 degree about face, and OPPOSES what he drafted. Why? because the Hon Prime Minister and ODM agreed to support the final Presidential system of government.

- it seems when ODM goes right ruto want to head left.

Give a few examples (ok one example then) showing ruto conforming to an ODM postion.
Just one freaking example.

Again why should such a serial errant member NOT BE EXPELLED?

It seems to me that ODM hierarchy fears a possible hue and cry (why should it if it is done legally as per party procedure) after ousting ruto and that is why they are merely talking and hoping that time cures ODM of this cancer that is ruto.

[mank]

Aug 15, 2010 0:23:00 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

The question still has NOT BEEN ANSWERED, with the author playing hide and seek games like a cornered animal smelling defeat.

The question to be asked is as Job put it, IS ODM A PARTY OF DISCIPLINE?

ruto is a serial ODM protagonist. What do you do about this man who CONSTANTLY defies THE ODM CREED?

-ruto campaigned against ODM candidates in MANY BY ELECTIONS, AND YET HE STILL IS IN ODM? doing WHAT?

-ruto went against the the ODM postiion on Mau

-ruto and the KATIBA.

In O5' ruto articulated the ODM ugatuzi position with eloquence. Not even the Hon Prime Minister could match him. Then he hatched a plot with jomo jnr (who is busy saving his a$$ paying homage to the Hon Prime Minister yesterday) to scuttle that form of Govt and adopt a pure Presidential system. Then ruto having gotten that deal, turns around, and makes a 180 degree about face, and OPPOSES what he drafted. Why? because the Hon Prime Minister and ODM agreed to support the final Presidential system of government.

- it seems when ODM goes right ruto want to head left.

Give a few examples (ok one example then) showing ruto conforming to an ODM postion.
Just one freaking example.

Again why should such a serial errant member NOT BE EXPELLED?

It seems to me that ODM hierarchy fears a possible hue and cry (why should it if it is done legally as per party procedure) after ousting ruto and that is why they are merely talking and hoping that time cures ODM of this cancer that is ruto.

You can keep imagining competitions that do not exist but you will not succed in making this about Ruto. The party is planning actions against members who voted "NO". Ruto is just one of them, and even for him they are not citing the multiple "offenses" you allege. They are only citing his voting "NO".

The right of a party to decide what vote members should have casted in the referendum, and to punish those who differed, is what is the issue.

[politicalmaniac]

No mank
This is not about one egregious event but a littany of serial misadventures by ruto

That is just a fact.
The ODM membership have accommodated ruto time ang again in the name of 'diversity of views'.

You are unable to generate even one specific act that ruto may have done to mitigate his ill advised serial undercutting of ODM t its knees.

Its time for him to go.

Should ruto be rewarded with a seat at the ODM table for constantly and loudly going agaisnt the ODM grain?

You are not a member of ODM and as such have no right to tell what ODM can or should not do.
Yours is an illogical stand that even your best intellectual effort cannot honestly defend.

Tell me again why ODM should reward the litany of serial serious moves AGAINST IT by its one who claims to be its own member, i.e ruto? Try and some make sense please.

[mank]

Aug 15, 2010 1:21:57 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

No mank
This is not about one egregious event but a littany of serial misadventures by ruto

That is just a fact.
The ODM membership have accommodated ruto time ang again in the name of 'diversity of views'.

You are unable to generate even one specific act that ruto may have done to mitigate his ill advised serial undercutting of ODM t its knees.

Its time for him to go.

Should ruto be rewarded with a seat at the ODM table for constantly and loudly going agaisnt the ODM grain?

You are not a member of ODM and as such have no right to tell what ODM can or should not do.
Yours is an illogical stand that even your best intellectual effort cannot honestly defend.

Tell me again why ODM should reward the litany of serial serious moves AGAINST IT by its one who claims to be its own member, i.e ruto? Try and some make sense please.

PM, I will repeat something I have said severally already. I have absolutely no problem with ODM punishing Ruto if he has gone against the grain of his party. But if the grain of his party requires him or anyone else to vote against his conviction at a referendum, then I have a problem with that. You would have the same problem if we were talking of PNU or KANU or any party other than ODM.

You have warned me that I have no business saying what ODM ought not to do. Is there any chance that you are a member of the PNU, the ODM, as well as the US GOP and Dem parties, all which you have commented on quite frequently?