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Post by gemagema on Mar 24, 2011 12:38:16 GMT 3
Jukwaaists,
Does Anyone have the Original letter by PNU the Kenyan Government to the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) seeking deferral of the Ocampo6 cases?
I really need it for some work. If you cannot paste it on the public thread here, please inbox it to me. Will really appreciate
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Post by nereah on Mar 24, 2011 14:12:44 GMT 3
i will be reading agwambo's remarks regarding this icc issue in parliament's hansard before i issue a detailed input. however, as i stated before, odm and raila's handlers must, uphold only one ideology if they have to navigate the dicey stretch that kenya is in on reformation path: pragmatism.
i am saying that between now and until the time when a new government is constituted i.e after a next election and legislative reforms, odm leadership must abide by only one ideology:pragmatism. nothing less nothing more.
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Post by federa on Mar 24, 2011 16:36:07 GMT 3
At times one is bemused by the kind of advice that the Ocampo six are getting. First they thought it was a good idea to seek a deferral at the UNSC when even they themselves must have surely know the conditions under which such a deferral would be granted was certainly not met. That prosecuting these six individuals would pose a threat to regional peace? The idea is laughable. Then to make it worse they imagine their request for a deferral would be considered favourably if they are also fighting their coalition partners. Its like they never wanted their case to succeed. Now they are back with another hairbrained attempt to challenge the jurisdiction of the ICC and the admissibility of the cases at the worse possible time. On the question of the jurisdiction of the ICC, article 19 of the Rome Statute says:
1. The Court shall satisfy itself that it has jurisdiction in any case brought before it.
The court has already done this twice, as pointed out by another contributor, when it authorized investigations and when it issued the summonses against the six suspects. So asking the same court to rule for the third time on this issue of jurisdiction doesn't make sense when you know the result; you will lose 2-1.
That leaves as only with the issue of admissibilty as their only hope. On this issue of admissibility, article 17 says:
1. Having regard to paragraph 10 of the Preamble and article 1, the Court shall determine that a case is inadmissible where:
(a) The case is being investigated or prosecuted by a State which has jurisdiction over it, unless the State is unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the investigation or prosecution;
We need go no further. What we should ask ourselves is whether the state is in this case unwilling to investigate or prosecute. On this issue of unwillingness, the same article says:
2. In order to determine unwillingness in a particular case, the Court shall consider, having regard to the principles of due process recognized by international law, whether one or more of the following exist, as applicable:
(a) The proceedings were or are being undertaken or the national decision was made for the purpose of shielding the person concerned from criminal responsibility for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court referred to in article 5;
(b) There has been an unjustified delay in the proceedings which in the circumstances is inconsistent with an intent to bring the person concerned to justice;
(c) The proceedings were not or are not being conducted independently or impartially, and they were or are being conducted in a manner which, in the circumstances, is inconsistent with an intent to bring the person concerned to justice.
Let us then answer if a-c exist in the Kenyan situation. The answer if one is honest is a resounding yes! The only reason we are running around yelling about the need for a local judicial mechanism is because we want to save the skins of some of the Ocampo six. This explains why we were not talking about this local process before the six names were revealed. So (a) above exists.
What of (b)?. Well, the crimes in question were committed in 2007/8. We have had nothing, no proceedings to talk about in our courts since. So (b) also exists.
What of (c)? Well, now we hear that the police are rushing to Eldoret to collect evidence, the same police that is implicated in the very crimes they are purporting to be investigating, and a police that as of now is still answerable to one of the suspects they are supposed to be investigating, one Francis Kirimi Muthaura. Clearly, (c) also exists.
Only one of this these conditions is enough to have the admissibilty challenge thrown out. As it is, all three exist. So this challenge is also dead before it arrives, and the advisors to the Ocampo six must surely also know this. I am afraid the only option these suspects have if to have the government stop all cooperation with the ICC and for them to become international fugitives. That looks to me to be the option they intend to take.
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Post by gemagema on Mar 24, 2011 20:01:12 GMT 3
While there may be no difference fundamentally between a local tribunal and the Hague (ICC) process, trust me, a local tribunal stationed in Kenya is a way of making sure the Ocampo6 get off the hook. What am I saying? I am alleging that ODM’s new stand on referral is a very cheesy and lame one. I know they are playing softer politics now in order not to lose that rift valley significant vote. Their insistency on a ‘referral to a local process’ is just window dressing by ODM to excite the Rift Valley electorate. Actually, on a second thought, I would rather have a deferral – a postponent, which means we shall return to the Ocampo 6 cases, other than a referral, which will only conclude by shielding some of the Ocampo6 from criminal responsibility of PEV.
A local tribunal will not be like other ad hoc tribunals such as ICTR (Ruanda) or ICTY (Yugoslavia). Kenya has an ugly history with of political manipulation of court processes and rule of law. Of course they say the composition and operation of the local tribunal, whose establishment will also be guided by Waki recommendations, should be acceptable to Kenyans and ICC. However, even such a process can still be manipulated. For example, that one Kenyan judge, whether of credible status (like Samuel Kivuiti was), can be controlled and pulled by strings and ropes that one may not have envisaged. The situation is worsened if the other presiding judges from commonwealth countries are of African genetic, cultural and political making. They will be bribed.
In fact, it is not impossible to penetrate and influence most of the office holders of a local tribunal, let alone the process itself.
Now, regarding the issue of protection of witnesses, during the commission of Inquiry into the mysterious death of Ouko, which was anyways later disbanded by the Moi, then CJ, Evans Gicheru, complained of insecurity. He said he feared for his life, and revealed that his phones were tapped. Later after a year, some Kenyans who testified at the commission died under mysterious circumstances. The victims included police officers attached to the commission and former workers of Ouko. Moreover, even John Troon of Scotland Yard, who also investigated the Dr Ouko murder, expressed insecurity concerns and did not return. Already, we are hearing that the witness of the ICC cases are being accessed.
A local tribunal will also mean that the Ocampo6, will have home ground advantage; they will politicize, and polarize the proceedings, like they are already doing. You know, the success of the ICTR is partly attributed to the location of its offices in Arusha, Tanzania and not Rwanda. Waafrika ni wadeadly bwana!
That said, I wish to reiterate that Hague (ICC) is the ideal place for the prosecution of Ocampo6. And if, for whatever unfortunate circumstance the choice of a local tribunal carries the day, then I pray to my almighty God, that its location may be anywhere but Kenya (not that it will make the court more credible but more because a direct democracy, with a prominent role by individual citizens and civil society (socialized politics) other than representative politics through our always wavering political parties and their leaders, will have directed decision making.
Job,
Kweli kabisa you believe in this
And truth be said, even most Jukwaaist are manifesting double standards in regards to the positions they take either for Hague or for local tribunal. Why cant we be consistent. For how long shall we let the political class deicide for us? For how long shall we let the political class and the mainstream media set the national and political agendas?
We just seem satisfied taking the naive, unenlightened, rather clueless positions to satisfy and justify our own political affiliations and that of our political cum ethnic Lords that are close to our ‘belonging’ politics.
Ask yourself, why did our politicians initially reject the local tribunal option? The Kenyan government is only interested in a process it can control.
Anyways, I would have wished to take this debatet further and try to credibly corroborate my argument , unfortunately i have to rush and go watch my son’s presentation at the theatre.
Baadaye
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Post by gemagema on Mar 24, 2011 21:19:17 GMT 3
ODM TOTALLY COMPROMISED Wacheni kutuchezea siasa. The latest news: ODM to hire lawyers for Ruto, Kosgey over ICC cases
The Orange Democratic Movement has indicated that it will hire lawyers to represent its members named as post election violence suspects by the International Criminal Court. ODM also announced that it will sponsor a Bill to provide for the establishment of a credible judicial mechanism to try the cases facing the Ocampo Six. The lawyers will represent Eldoret North MP William Ruto, Henry Kosgey (Tinderet) and radio presenter Joshua Sang. Orange MPs led by parliamentary secretary Ababu Namwamba and deputy secretary-general Joseph Nkaissery said the lawyers will be asked to accompany the three suspects for their initial appearance at The Hague on April 7. “Whether it is at a court in Kibera or at The Hague every suspect has a right to a fair trial and justice,” said Mr Namwamba. The legislators said the decision was arrived at the National Executive Committee and Parliamentary Group meeting on Tuesday. They declined to name the lawyers, saying only that they would accompany the three and support them. “The party will hire legal experts to hold brief, accompany the members and support them,” said Gen Nkaissery. Mr Ruto, the Eldoret North MP and deputy leader, is a rebel within the party and does not see eye-to-eye with Mr Odinga. Relations between Mr Kosgey and the Odinga faction have been frosty since the announcement that he was one of the six people the ICC claims bear the greatest responsibility over the violence that claimed at least 1,133 people and displaced an estimated 650,000 from their homes. While Mr Sang is not principally an ODM member, ICC Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo listed him as a suspect under the party's banner when released his list. The others, Finance minister Uhuru Kenyatta, head of Civil Service Francis Muthaura and Postmaster General Hussein Ali were lumped under the PNU. The party also took a swipe at the efforts by coalition partner PNU to shield the Ocampo Six from prosecution by attempting to have the ICC defer the case for a year. “The shuttle diplomacy where the Vice President has been lobbying characters, some of who are candidates of international investigations has the brought the country ridicule and odium,” said Mr Namwamba. They said that by taking the position to have the cases referred to Kenya, the intention was to protect the dignity and sovereignty of the country. Mr Namwamba maintained that the party has consistently been for the creation of a local tribunal despite previous failed attempts. The bill for the establishment of a local tribunal will be brought to Parliament next week and will cover all details as provided for by the Rome Statute, Gen Nkaissery said. MPs at the press conference included ministers Franklin Bett, Mohamed Elmi and assistant ministers Margaret Kamar, Maalim Mohamed, Dhadho Godana and MPs Rachel Shebesh, Omar Zonga and Dr Joyce Laboso. The latest move marks a major climb down from the party position on the trials. In a hard hitting statement in Parliament on Wednesday, Prime Minister Raila Odinga said the Ocampo Six should be ready to prove their innocence at the ICC. “We cannot all the time be talking about the innocence of the six. More than 1,300 Kenyans were killed, some were burnt in a church and in Naivasha others were shot. Justice for them must also be done. That innocence of the six must be proved through a fair judicial process. If you are mentioned, go through the process,’’ Mr Odinga while responding to a question by Mutito MP Kiema Kilonzo during the Prime Minister’s time in Parliament Wednesday. “If you are a suspect do not tell us you are innocent. Go and clear your name there (at the Hague)." Mr Odinga, who is the ODM party leader, also called for an independent prosecutor and the involvement of foreign investigators such as the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) and the UK's Scotland Yard if the trials are to be handled locally. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/-/1064/1132406/-/7q6tp1/-/index.html |
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Post by kamalet on Mar 24, 2011 21:44:03 GMT 3
odm...flip...odm...flop!
That is why I keep saying that the good Lord loves this country that these charlatans never got to lead this country!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 24, 2011 21:46:02 GMT 3
ODM TOTALLY COMPROMISED Wacheni kutuchezea siasa. The latest news: ODM to hire lawyers for Ruto, Kosgey over ICC cases
The Orange Democratic Movement has indicated that it will hire lawyers to represent its members named as post election violence suspects by the International Criminal Court. ODM also announced that it will sponsor a Bill to provide for the establishment of a credible judicial mechanism to try the cases facing the Ocampo Six. The lawyers will represent Eldoret North MP William Ruto, Henry Kosgey (Tinderet) and radio presenter Joshua Sang. Orange MPs led by parliamentary secretary Ababu Namwamba and deputy secretary-general Joseph Nkaissery said the lawyers will be asked to accompany the three suspects for their initial appearance at The Hague on April 7. “Whether it is at a court in Kibera or at The Hague every suspect has a right to a fair trial and justice,” said Mr Namwamba. The legislators said the decision was arrived at the National Executive Committee and Parliamentary Group meeting on Tuesday. They declined to name the lawyers, saying only that they would accompany the three and support them. “The party will hire legal experts to hold brief, accompany the members and support them,” said Gen Nkaissery. Mr Ruto, the Eldoret North MP and deputy leader, is a rebel within the party and does not see eye-to-eye with Mr Odinga. Relations between Mr Kosgey and the Odinga faction have been frosty since the announcement that he was one of the six people the ICC claims bear the greatest responsibility over the violence that claimed at least 1,133 people and displaced an estimated 650,000 from their homes. While Mr Sang is not principally an ODM member, ICC Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo listed him as a suspect under the party's banner when released his list. The others, Finance minister Uhuru Kenyatta, head of Civil Service Francis Muthaura and Postmaster General Hussein Ali were lumped under the PNU. The party also took a swipe at the efforts by coalition partner PNU to shield the Ocampo Six from prosecution by attempting to have the ICC defer the case for a year. “The shuttle diplomacy where the Vice President has been lobbying characters, some of who are candidates of international investigations has the brought the country ridicule and odium,” said Mr Namwamba. They said that by taking the position to have the cases referred to Kenya, the intention was to protect the dignity and sovereignty of the country. Mr Namwamba maintained that the party has consistently been for the creation of a local tribunal despite previous failed attempts. The bill for the establishment of a local tribunal will be brought to Parliament next week and will cover all details as provided for by the Rome Statute, Gen Nkaissery said. MPs at the press conference included ministers Franklin Bett, Mohamed Elmi and assistant ministers Margaret Kamar, Maalim Mohamed, Dhadho Godana and MPs Rachel Shebesh, Omar Zonga and Dr Joyce Laboso. The latest move marks a major climb down from the party position on the trials. In a hard hitting statement in Parliament on Wednesday, Prime Minister Raila Odinga said the Ocampo Six should be ready to prove their innocence at the ICC. “We cannot all the time be talking about the innocence of the six. More than 1,300 Kenyans were killed, some were burnt in a church and in Naivasha others were shot. Justice for them must also be done. That innocence of the six must be proved through a fair judicial process. If you are mentioned, go through the process,’’ Mr Odinga while responding to a question by Mutito MP Kiema Kilonzo during the Prime Minister’s time in Parliament Wednesday. “If you are a suspect do not tell us you are innocent. Go and clear your name there (at the Hague)." Mr Odinga, who is the ODM party leader, also called for an independent prosecutor and the involvement of foreign investigators such as the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) and the UK's Scotland Yard if the trials are to be handled locally. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/-/1064/1132406/-/7q6tp1/-/index.htmlIt is very painful to be an ODM supporter my friend, they stand for everything and nothing. The greenhorn Namwamba seems to be running too fast, he needs to be careful lest he burns his hands very soon. |
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Post by gemagema on Mar 24, 2011 21:49:28 GMT 3
Latest: New twist as ODM Secretary General Anyang' Nyong'o now says reports of legal aides for three members of Ocampo Six not the official party position.
Kwendeni huko kabisa ODM
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Post by kamalet on Mar 24, 2011 21:56:16 GMT 3
Latest: New twist as ODM Secretary General Anyang' Nyong'o now says reports of legal aides for three members of Ocampo Six not the official party position. Kwendeni huko kabisa ODM ...flip...odm...flop...odm...flip....odm....flop....odm! |
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 24, 2011 22:19:53 GMT 3
hehehehehehe
Some people are trying too hard. Some people like useless drama. Let's face the simple truth. ODM cannot raise even 1% of what is needed to defend the Hague suspects. Hague trials could take up to a decade. This is not some chicken thief court appearence. In any event Kibaki seems to have his thieving hands stuck in taxpayer pocket anyway, ready to hand over loads of cash to the warlords, so why worry.
This is big money fellas and the warlords actually have enough cash to pay their way. If they have no money, ICC has a legal aid system. Ocampo is going to asses their assets and if it is true their asses are broke they will get legal aid.
For the rich ones, forget legal aid and who will pay for it, Ocampo is coming to freeze all your assets except what you need to feed yourselves and your family. Ask Charles Taylor. All his diamond money is gone, thanks to Moreno Ocampo.
These manenos of paying for the Hague trial is nothing compared to the earthquake we will see when Ocampo starts freezing the assets of the suspects. If they think they need money now, wait till Ocampo is done with them. They will borrow the neighbour's chicken for Christmas.
Very soon we are going to have real talk about real money and real assets. I am sure they are already trying to hide stuff, but Ocampo and his squad is another kettle of fish.
People forget that one of the reasons the big Ocampo boys are scared shitless about the Hague is that their money is on the line as from April 7, 2011, once they commit to the ICC process. That is the money talk I can't wait for.
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Post by Mobimba on Mar 24, 2011 23:38:12 GMT 3
I don’t know about you but I cant wait to hear Ruto's response to ODMs generous offer (if it still stands). I'm sure he'll have some choice words in trashing the whole idea.
The fact is that ODM cannot afford and will not spend a dime on defending anybody… esp. with elections next year.
It might well be that Namwamba is looking for a way out of ODM. His 'legal aid offer' will be revoked and he'll scream dictatorship as he dashes to join New Ford Kenya.
Still not quite sure why Nyongo reacted with such speed. That's toddler politics. Clearly, he needs to take a chill pill. We all know Ruto will trash the offer anyway… so why even comment on it… and in the process let the world know how dysfunctional the party is. He should have let it play out.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 24, 2011 23:57:56 GMT 3
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Post by merlin on Mar 25, 2011 0:12:30 GMT 3
Confusion reigned in ODMConfusion reigned in the Orange Democratic Party on Thursday evening over whether the party was offering to hire lawyers for its members accused of crimes against humanity. A group of MPs announced that the party would hire lawyers for its members accused of crimes against humanity by the International Criminal Court. They also announced that the party would sponsor a Bill seeking the establishment of a local tribunal to try cases relating to the post-election violence. The announcement was made by MPs led by ODM parliamentary secretary Ababu Namwamba and deputy secretary-general Joseph Nkaissery. The party lawyers, said the group, would be asked to accompany the three suspects, who include suspended Higher Education Minister William Ruto, suspended Industrialisation Minister and ODM chairman Henry Kosgey and Kass FM radio presenter Joshua Sang to The Hague. “Whether it is at a court in Kibera or at The Hague, every suspect has a right to a fair trial and justice,” Mr Namwamba said. Party secretary-general Anyang’ Nyong’o, however, denied that the party was giving legal aid to anyone. “The ODM party organs have not discussed nor agreed to any legal aid to any of the Ocamp Six. “Any statement attributed to the party in that regard is the personal view of the exponent and not the party,” Prof Nyong’o said in an SMS. Legal expertsThe party has been struggling to find a consistent position on The Hague question. It had strongly argued for The Hague trials, but last week called a press conference to say it was backing a local tribunal. (READ: ODM pushes for ICC-led local trials) At a press conference at Parliament on Thursday evening, the MPs allied to Mr Odinga said the decision to offer aid was taken by the National Executive Committee and the Parliamentary Group meeting on Tuesday. They declined to name the lawyers, saying only that they would accompany the three to the ICC at The Hague on April 7, and support them. “The party will hire legal experts to hold brief, accompany the members and support them,” Mr Nkaissery said. In its earlier petition to the United Nations Security Council, ODM had pointed at the previous failure to establish a local tribunal and the difficulty of having credible local trials as reasons why “the ongoing ICC process is the best and only means of securing justice to the innocent victims”. (READ: Reject Kenya plea, Orange asks UN) In what it termed 16 reasons why deferral should be rejected, ODM argued that Kenya was incapable of creating a credible judicial mechanism because local trials would be subject to “political manipulation by leaders pleading the ethnic card; threats to witnesses, their families and friends. Indeed, many witnesses have been hunted down and killed by State security agents and undue delays caused by frivolous and vexatious applications. On Wednesday, a straight-shooting Mr Odinga told the suspects to go and prove their innocence at The Hague, terming it sad that Kenyans who had been “killed like rats” had been ignored as the suspects filled the political space with protestations of innocence. Relations between Mr Ruto and the party leader have generally been bad while Mr Kosgey appeared to fall out with Mr Odinga after it was announced that the minister was among those to be tried in relation to the violence that claimed 1,133 lives and forced eviction of 650,000 others from their homes. On Thursday, ODM took a swipe at the Party of National Unity accusing it of trying to shield the Ocampo Six from justice by having their cases deferred. “The shuttle diplomacy where the Vice President has been lobbying characters, some of who are candidates of international investigations, have the brought the country ridicule and odium,” Mr Namwamba claimed. Source: www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Confusion+over+lawyers+hiring/-/1064/1132746/-/rn3ksuz/-/index.html
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Post by nalinali on Mar 25, 2011 0:40:22 GMT 3
It would be nice to dissect the discordance emanating from ODM first. Something is not right about Ababu-Nyongo contradictions. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 25, 2011 1:06:25 GMT 3
It would be nice to dissect the discordance emanating from ODM first. Something is not right about Ababu-Nyongo contradictions. I am leaving my work place to head home so I will only say a few things. Personally I think Nyong'o was just being silly and his usual arrogant self. Ababu and co on the other hand were selling snake oil, I don't know for what reason. Number one, it is just an outright lie that ODM has hired three lawyers for the Hague warlords. Unless they picked up some jua kali lawyer from River Road, it is not possible to just hire 3 lawyers in a case of this magnitude with a snap of a finger. Secondly if you are going to hire a lawyer for me, you should be talking to me and asking my preferences and then we decide who are the most appropriate lawyers. I do not know when Ababu and co met Ruto and his fellow accused to work out those deals. To the best of my knowledge the two sides have been sniping faster that the Gadhafi snipers on roof tops. It is therefore obvious that no lawyer has been hired unless ODM M.Ps or other volunteers who are lawyers are willing to donate their time to go to the Hague. On the basis of the above I see no reason for Nyong'o to project himself into the non existent issue. If I was Nyong'o and the media calls me to ask I would tell them I am not aware of that but the party has many organs and party leaders will meet to see where things stand. That will be the end of story. There is such a thing as discipline and professionalism in running political parties. Kenya is about 50 years away from that. I do not see that happening with this generation of leaders. Mercifully the Kenyan people are miles ahead of them. The problem for ODM here is that they are wasting their time and precious political capital on useless side shows. That is usually the domain of PNU and I think sensible people will tell some of these ODM leaders to shut up and focus on real issues even within the ICC debate. How these guys get lawyers is not an issue. Those with no money will get lawyers from the ICC. Those with money will pay huge sums for lawyers since the rest of the assets may end up with Ocampo anyway. So I see all these as a storm in a tea cup. that is my two cents. adongo |
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 25, 2011 3:45:23 GMT 3
nalinali,
I think the capital fm version which is below sheds more light on the matter. I didn't see it before.
From this version it seems this was a decision of the Parliamentary ODM crew and they decided to announce it. In fact their statement was more about setting up a credible STK in Kenya in accordance with the Waki recommendations. The hiring lawyers piece was an add on but that is all DN and Standard were interested in.
I think the ODM approach here is excellent and that re-enforces my view that Ayang' Nyong'o was totally wrong. I don't want to beat up on Nyong'o now but I must say he is a great liability to ODM in his capacity as the party SG.
Anyang' Nyong'o is a brilliant guy and a very brave patriot. When we were small boys in secondary schools it is people like Nyong'o whom we used to hear about who inspired us to work hard and make it to the university so we could meet them. By the time I got there, he was gone, pushed out of the country.
It was indeed not very smart for the ODM PG crew to sell a little snake oil (hiring lawyers) on the sides but they were right ON in terms of setting up a credible Local Tribunal which can meet the international standards. That is really the next battle.
If Kenya can set an independent STK, arrest the Ocampo six and others and prosecute them, there is no need for the ICC. If Kenya cannot do that, which is the most likely scenario, the Ocampo six are headed to The Hague without a doubt. That is really the next battle. This money for lawyers business is plain crap and the ODM does itself a great disservice by waddling into that issue. It is a none issue, really.
So on this one I think Ababu and co made a strategic move but got a little mixed up, while Nyong'o should have just called Ababu and others to find out what was happening or simply shut up.
I think the video of the event is very informative and it shows this is not about Ababu and Nyong'o. Many ODM M.Ps attended the press conference and it made a lot of sense.
I think that is my last take on the matter. Tomorrow, I will pay attention to the Kibaki game plan for The Hague scheduled for April 1, 2011.
Here is what I am talking about:
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Post by shifta on Mar 25, 2011 3:50:32 GMT 3
Befiore Phil tells us what is really happening to his favorite party, let me suggest that:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The ODM party of Kenya's act of supposed hiring of lawyers for the Ocampo 3:
a) is an acceptance of culpability in the organizing of teh PEV mayhem.
b) is cynical because ODM knows the Ruto cabal will dismiss it.
c) is brilliant politics, they can use it as mileage & tell the Kalenjin voters, even after (b): see we did not abandon them.
d) is a sign of an utterly confused lot, bila msimamo, busy chasing ghosts
e) all of the above.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 25, 2011 4:10:16 GMT 3
Befiore Phil tells us what is really happening to his favorite party, let me suggest that: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The ODM party of Kenya's act of supposed hiring of lawyers for the Ocampo 3: a) is an acceptance of culpability in the organizing of teh PEV mayhem. b) is cynical because ODM knows the Ruto cabal will dismiss it. c) is brilliant politics, they can use it as mileage & tell the Kalenjin voters, even after (b): see we did not abandon them. d) is a sign of an utterly confused lot, bila msimamo, busy chasing ghosts e) all of the above. So who are the lawyers ODM has hired? Do you know how much money they have been paid?. When do they go to work? In my view the issue of hiring lawyers for ICC suspects is an oxymoron. First of all most of the accused persons have more money than the political parties they belong to. Secondly ICC pays for defendants. Third, it is hard to buy your freedom from The Hague. This is not a Kenyan court where you buy clerks to destroy files and judges to postpone cases for ten years or prosecution witnesses to become literally defense witness on the stands. Last, ICC is more interested in the assets owned by the suspects than who pays their legal fees. I think once again here we have a fake debate on an irrelevant side show as opposed to focusing at what is really at stake here. Let me tell you what is at stake right now. Either Kenya establishes a credible independent local tribunal acceptable to the ICC arrest and start prosecuting the Ocampo six, or some butts will rot at The Hague for a long time. That to me is the issue at hand. But of course, where would Kenya be without endless political side shows. It is in the political DNA of the country. But right now the stakes are way higher than that. We will see. |
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Post by shifta on Mar 25, 2011 4:16:13 GMT 3
Adongo, all I am asking is consistency that is all, you are right about side shows - but why now when there is such a ground swell of opinion that the 6 need to go clear their names kule Hague and on top of that the PM's passionate answer on Wed. was spot on. Why would ODM introduce this circus at this time late in the game? Panic? Ploy? Ni nini?
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 25, 2011 4:52:55 GMT 3
Adongo, all I am asking is consistency that is all, you are right about side shows - but why now when there is such a ground swell of opinion that the 6 need to go clear their names kule Hague and on top of that the PM's passionate answer on Wed. was spot on. Why would ODM introduce this circus at this time late in the game? Panic? Ploy? Ni nini? In my view ODM did one good thing today and one stupid thing. The announcement by ODM M.Ps that they are ready to sponsor a bill for an independent tribunal was a brilliant move. It sets the limits within which they will be ready to work with their fellow M.Ps to actually make an independent tribunal a reality. On the PNU side they do not want even to hear about a tribunal. They want to go lie to the ICC that regular courts or a division within the High Court can handle the Ocampo six. That is nonsense, but that is what they are taking to the Hague next week. It will flop. So ODM making a public statement that they will table a bill for a an independent tribunal was of strategic brilliance. By that declaration they had set the limits within which they will work with their PNU partners to deal with the ICC issue. That is very well articulated by the ODM crew in the video from capital fm. I think that is where this battle is going in the next two weeks even before April 7, 2011 and beyond. Then due to the indiscipline within the ODM leadership they squandered their gains from yesterday and today by having this silly squabble about hiring lawyers whom they have not even hired or considered hiring. They don't have the godamn money to begin with. So I agree with you that ODM introduced a circus which hurts them and which they did not have to introduce at all. Kenyans want to talk about why tax payer money is being used to protect suspected killers. That is a pertinent debate. But if ODM also wants to fund their killers, the issue is, why should the government killers not be funded by the government to defend their murders and rape, after all they are supposed to have killed and raped on behalf of the government? I think at some point our country is going to look up to new bright lights to lead the country. PNU is telling us they need their suspected killers to run for the presidency or else they have no chance. Good riddance. ODM has refused to break with the ancient political template and be a new party with a vision for the masses of the nation looking for leadership. They can stay there. The masses will leave them. No problem. There is a reason we have seen what happened in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and elsewhere. It is not always the same everywhere. The Kenyan template in this great struggle for liberty for the nation has not been minted yet, but history has its prints on it. It has gone on since 1896 when the wakoloni set their feet and brought their guns and religion to our shores for conquest of our people. It sure will go on beyond the Ocampo six and wherever they meet justice, which they will. That is a long discussion. The nation will have it sooner than later. Of that I am sure. adongo |
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Post by b6k on Mar 25, 2011 8:10:07 GMT 3
"I think at some point our country is going
to look up to new bright lights to lead the
country. PNU is telling us they need their
suspected killers to run for the presidency
or else they have no chance. Good riddance.
ODM has refused to break with the ancient
political template and be a new party with a
vision for the masses of the nation looking
for leadership. They can stay there. The
masses will leave them. No problem."
Finally a hint of objectivity from the bleachers. ODM's 180 degree turn on ICC & the sudden need to back their wing of the Ocampo 3 has little to do with selling snake oil to the public. The 85% of Kenyans who back the ICC process are about to be monumentally betrayed. When the two sides of the coin start singing the same song (deferral/referral: we have hired UK lawyers/we will send lawyers) albeit at different octaves, then Kenyans need to be prepared to abandon the "ancient political template" & create a new order.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 25, 2011 8:20:44 GMT 3
Adongo
Let ODM not lie to Kenyans that they will table a bill for an independent tribunal. They should know that setting up any judicial structure outside of the present one envisaged in the constitution requires an amendment that should also be subjected to a referendum. ODM cannot even raise the numbers to pass a vote increasing the size of the PM's motorcade or voting for funds to get him a bigger red carpet.
End of day, either ODM settles for a local process under the present judicial set up or simply shut up.
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 25, 2011 9:37:04 GMT 3
The state of confusion in ODM is alarming and will result to further falling outs in the party Writing to U.N. Council why the I.C.C. cases should not be deferred or referred then doing a U-turn and running in the local media saying O.D.M. has always been advocating for a referral and now the lawyers issue . This just shows what kind of party it is coming at a time when also the media wakes up and call it as it is that their leader Raila falling short of threshold needed to win presidency without a runoff www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000031880&cid=4&If this is a plot to woo the ODM rebels back(Read Rutos Duales Balalas ) then it will fail miserably . These politicians and their political base have already made up their mind and come next elections will be running on their own regional parties and not ODM and the happenings just proves this From this link it is evident ODM now risk losing the muslim vote .Duale and Balala should go on and plot something about this but sugarcoat it as not a muslim party . www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000031879&cid=4& |
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Post by ebarasi on Mar 25, 2011 13:34:13 GMT 3
odm...flip...odm...flop! That is why I keep saying that the good Lord loves this country that these charlatans never got to lead this country!Kamalet, The good lord works in mysterious ways and I agree with you that he loves this country but I differ with you on the issue of your so called "charlatans" not leading Kenya. The skunk, stinking of corruption, impunity, murder, theft, insincerity etc, that has been passed down by inheritance since independence is firmly in the hands of those who nurtured and nourished it. Try as they will or want, the stench will not wash away as long as they continue to tightly embrace that skunk. So as the Hague, local tribunal, TJRC or whatever instance of exacting accountability call, the dice will fall in their rightful place. It would have been sad indeed if this skunk had been inherited by those who, at deep personal sacrifice, fought against it. |
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Post by phil on Mar 25, 2011 14:16:21 GMT 3
Befiore Phil tells us what is really happening to his favorite party, let me suggest that: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The ODM party of Kenya's act of supposed hiring of lawyers for the Ocampo 3: a) is an acceptance of culpability in the organizing of teh PEV mayhem. b) is cynical because ODM knows the Ruto cabal will dismiss it. c) is brilliant politics, they can use it as mileage & tell the Kalenjin voters, even after (b): see we did not abandon them. d) is a sign of an utterly confused lot, bila msimamo, busy chasing ghosts e) all of the above. |
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