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Post by nereah on Mar 25, 2011 15:11:15 GMT 3
at the risk of boring you, let me repeat what i have stated before. pragmatism must be the ideology of odm now henceforth. that's the only strategy to navigate this stretch that we are in.
call it climb down,call it whatever, odm has my confidence. thats the way it is.
my thoughts!
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 25, 2011 15:48:04 GMT 3
Confusion in ODM - Raila Contradicts Nyongo , Nyongo contradicts Namwamba www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/-/1064/1132864/-/7q6x04/-/index.htmlA section of ODM legislators allied to Eldoret North MP William Ruto have challenged the party’s top leadership to state its actual stand on the post election violence trials. Related Stories * ODM confusion over legal aid for ICC suspects Even though the MPs - Joshua Kutuny (Cherangany) and Benjamin Langat (Ainamoi)- welcomed the party’s ‘belated about turn’ to have the Ocampo six tried locally, they expressed concern over the mixed signals from the party’s leadership. “On Tuesday, ODM Secretary General Anyang' Nyong'o said the party had climbed down from having the six tried at the ICC in favour of a credible local judicial mechanism,” the duo said at a news conference in parliament. “But strangely on Wednesday, Prime Minister Raila Odinga stated that the six should go to the ICC and have their names cleared contradicting the party position which he was party to a day earlier,” they added. “On Thursday, ODM again contradicted itself as usual with the party’s leadership speaking from both sides of the mouth.” They said that while 10 MPs led by Deputy Secretary General Joseph Nkaiserry and parliamentary group secretary Ababu Namwamba said the party had resolved to hire lawyers to represent their members mentioned by the ICC, Mr Nyong’o strangely denounced this. The three are: party chairman Henry Kosgey, deputy party leader William Ruto and radio presenter Joshua arap Sang. “What then is the official party position on the ICC trials?” they posed. “Who in ODM should be trusted?” Meanwhile, Mr Sang has cautiously welcomed the move the ODM to hire lawyers to represent him. In a statement, the radio presenter said he hoped ODM was acting in good faith to retain legal experts for him and MPs Ruto and Kosgey. "I have already stated that I have limited resources. I welcome any assistance directed at me. I gratefully accept any help that is given to me in good faith and within reason," he said. He, however, maintained that he was not a member of the Orange party saying he wished to separate party loyalties and his vocation. "I have never said I am a member of ODM. The question of my party membership is personal. "As a journalist, I keep issues of my party loyalties personal and separate from my calling and vocation in media." Through the advise of his lawyers, Katwa Kigen, Joel Bosek and Philemon Koech, Mr Sang denied allegations of his involvement in the post election violence that left 1,133 people dead 650,000 uprooted from their homes. ICC prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo named the KASS FM presenter alongside Finance minister Uhuru Kenyatta, head of Civil Service Francis Muthaura, Postmaster General Hussein Ali and MPs Ruto and Kosgey as suspected masterminds of the chaos. "As is already in public knowledge the ICC Prosecutor has made allegations against me to the effect that I was in the year 2007 a member of ODM party, and I continue to be a member. Further that I incited people on post election violence for and on behalf of ODM. "I deny these allegations," he said.
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Post by gemagema on Mar 25, 2011 16:10:01 GMT 3
Wakenya, We may not agree on several issues, but at least let us agree on this one – that ICC should deal with the current ICC cases, read Ocampo6. Really, Do we really want justice for the victims of the PEV? Do we want to end impunity in our country? For how long are we going to stand by and watch the stupid political games being played by our so called political leaders on the issue of ICC, Ocampo6 and the fight against impunity? For how long shall we let the political class decide for us? For how long shall we let our wavering politicians set the national and political agendas? We just seem satisfied with taking naive, unenlightened and rather clueless positions to satisfy and justify our own political affiliations and that of our political cum ethnic Lords! How can we introduce a peoples Revolution, just like Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, etc? This is what we need to do. If Kenyan citizens take our leaders on, trust me they will succumb. Kibaki has succumbed before, and he can succumb again. Hence we need to execute our pressure in the exact manner it was done in this YouTube. Be attentive
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Post by mintos on Mar 25, 2011 16:11:28 GMT 3
I don't think Ruto will accept the ODM offer
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Post by commes on Mar 25, 2011 16:47:50 GMT 3
Wakenya, We may not agree on several issues, but at least let us agree on this one – that ICC should deal with the current ICC cases, read Ocampo6. Really, Do we really want justice for the victims of the PEV? Do we want to end impunity in our country? For how long are we going to stand by and watch the stupid political games being played by our so called political leaders on the issue of ICC, Ocampo6 and the fight against impunity? For how long shall we let the political class decide for us? For how long shall we let our wavering politicians set the national and political agendas? We just seem satisfied with taking naive, unenlightened and rather clueless positions to satisfy and justify our own political affiliations and that of our political cum ethnic Lords! How can we introduce a peoples Revolution, just like Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, etc? This is what we need to do. If Kenyan citizens take our leaders on, trust me they will succumb. Kibaki has succumbed before, and he can succumb again. Hence we need to execute our pressure in the exact manner it was done in this YouTube. Be attentive gemagemaAllow me to reproduced this article by Ngunjiri, Executive Director of Change Associates. It captured what I would have struggled to say here In the last few weeks our politics has deteriorated to a level that we did not reach even pre-2007. Since Luis Moreno Ocampo suggested that Uhuru Kenyatta, William Ruto, Hussein Ali, Henry Kosgey, Francis Muthaura and my friend Joshua Sang are the ones holding greatest responsibility for the 2007 violence, our politicians have literally lost all direction and focus. They spend all their time figuring out how to leverage the news into ammunition to fight their political rivals. They are not even trying to camouflage the political rallies over 15 months before the next election. Our leaders, most of who are young educated men have thrown caution to the wind and are willing to take Kenya beyond the precipice they kept telling us we got to in 2007/8, as they compete on who has more political clout, or followers, or influence, than the other. Tribal sentiments, ethnic stereotypes and vulgar insults never seen in the history of Kenyan politics are coming from people we thought knew better. Those not doing it are either funding those doing it, or sitting gleefully waiting for the country to burn up. What we are watching is tribal politics at its very worst, as 'tribal chieftains' pursue short-term supremacy agendas with an eye to 2012. The national agenda has been completely forgotten. I find myself battling with these questions (i) Why would Ruto and Uhuru offer to support Eugene's presidential bid, when they are also running for President? (ii) Why would Kalonzo insist that a deferral is possible despite all indications that his is a lost cause? (iii) Why would Raila keep insisting on speaking about KKK despite all attempts by everyone, to move away from this term? (iv) Why would some sections of government suggest to the international community, that keeping the ICC cases on could lead to tribal violence? (v) Why would Kibaki keep silent as all these is going on? Then the answer hits me right on the forehead .... because they can! We have allowed them the space to do it. Maybe we need to get into that political space that these 200 or so individuals believe exclusively belongs to them. Maybe men and women who love Kenya should step up and exchange words, in public rallies, in not-so-private spaces, and in private, with the Ocampo Six and their supporters, and with those using the ICC to fight the Ocampo Six. Maybe all this will provide an opportunity for a new set of men and women to step up and take responsibility, and take influence away from them, as we did in the Pre-Referendum Campaign, in the ICC Process, and in the nominations fiasco. The 1.4 million Kenyans who signed up in support of the ICC process did not do so so that Raila, Kalonzo, Uhuru and Ruto, or others sitting by the sidelines, can use it to fight their personal political battles with each other, in their bids for President. The ICC process cannot be cheapened to this level. We support this process because we need help to start the fight against impunity.' We Can Do It!' may be an overused cliche but these are four powerful words. A small idea grew into a powerful campaign against impunity, and ensured that the ICC Process stayed the course despite terrible resistance from sections of our political establishment. We even provoked some sections of government to try and raise their own signatures! We achieved ALL this without a single politician leading us. From zero to over 1.4 million in just over 60 days! It does not take much to get it done. From a campaign that started as a discussion between two individuals, we developed a process that reached millions of people locally and internationally. We could register on simple forms in tents or through volunteers in every part of the country, on sign up on online sites, or sign via SMS. We saw Facebook at work, tweets sent out, and emails circulated to make thousands of friends. We even tried out public demonstrations. Can we come together and move this campaign to the next level? Can these Kenyans positively affect the political space that is being polluted by our current members of Parliament? Do we have leaders amongst these individuals who can rally the rest of us, mobilize us into political rallies, get us to volunteer our time and resources, and unite us across our tribes, religions and economic structures, into a new constitution ideology? Do we have enough individuals who can stand as Independent Candidates in 2012 as our representatives rather than representatives of retrogressive, repressive, directionless political parties? My proposal is that we threaten the public/political space that they believe is their exclusive domain. Some of us who have never been politicians should go out and challenge them in their space. The agenda must be taken away from the Ocampo Six and/or their rivals because these guys will do everything they can get away with to achieve their ends. Has the time come for a Network of Independent Candidates (NIC) to step out and freshen up our politics, to compete with the current brood of politicians, for our nation's future? Could this be a good cause for our 1.4 million Kenyans to support? www.the-star.co.ke/opinions/ngunjiri-wambugu-/18509-do-we-need-to-create-network-of-independents
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Post by Mobimba on Mar 25, 2011 23:18:21 GMT 3
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Post by shifta on Mar 25, 2011 23:46:07 GMT 3
If I was ODM I would be thanking mama Lucy for the great diversion, while everyone is busy guessing and getting fascinated by the newest sexiest topic - I would get the house in order, meanwhile if any MP sees a media microphone - let it be what the cross is to dracula. I am with the PM's statement in parliament on this, "go clear your names hukop Hague", meanwhile set up a local mechanism to try the rest of the culprits.
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Post by shifta on Mar 25, 2011 23:51:05 GMT 3
If I was ODM I would be thanking mama Lucy for the great diversion, while everyone is busy guessing and getting fascinated by the newest sexiest topic - I would get the house in order, meanwhile if any MP sees a media microphone - let it be what the cross is to dracula. I am with the PM's statement in parliament on this, "go clear your names huko Hague", meanwhile set up a local mechanism to try the rest of the culprits.
One thing though I can always count on is the self defeating nature of our politics. Ati now PNU is organizing a mugithi train to Hague - what are the chances they will all get VISAs? One group of clown leaves the next gets right on the stage. Never a dull moment.
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Post by mzee on Mar 25, 2011 23:56:31 GMT 3
I think that the newspapers are blowing the hiring of lawyers out of proportion. Besides I did not think that Ruto and co were going to accept it. For one they are not poor people so they can afford their defense. Its only Sang who should be financially supported needs there be. The rest can carry their own crosses or steal from the government to pay their expensive lawyers.
The second reason why this would be unacceptable to Ruto and co even it were done in good faith is because it would portray ODM in good light and thats not so nice in their eyes.
Anyways, now that they have said no, they wont turn around and say that help was not. But as Phil stated above, this was just but a wishful thinking from a handful of MPs.
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Post by gemagema on Mar 26, 2011 0:03:48 GMT 3
Commes, Big Up Bro! At least someone else shares a common vision with the rest of the Kenyans. Unfortunately, most of them are unable to raise their opinions here, either because of the digital divide or the lack of knowledge in using this digital technologies and the platforms they provide. Jukwaa only has a selected few; those with new media technologies hence with the privilege to express their opinions on this virtual space. So, let us not, like our leaders, betray our fellow Kenyans, who have courageously and categorically stated that Hague is the only option, just because they cannot access such virtual platforms.
We must accept that our leaders have let us down. We gave them the opportunity to lead and guide us, but they have squandered that. We are now a lost sheep with no leaders. All of them are playing self-benefiting politics. Both PNU and ODM, and don't even mention the Kalonzos, Karuas and Eugenes! Tosha Gari
Guys, we must focus. What do we want? To be swayed hither and thither?
Now, even for the ODM apologetics, Ruto has rejected the legal aid. Did we think Ocampo3 were so stupid as to accept the crocodiled and window-dressed legal offer? Ruto understands that he is in this shit alone. Same with the rest of the Ocampo6. At the end of the day, all those shouting on top of their voices that they shall support the Ocampo6 either by paying their fees or accompanying them to the Hague, can do nothing valuable to saves their arses. Only Lip service is all they can provide, not even moral support. The rest is BS. When shit dawns, watakuwa missing. So ODM, just because you can bullshit Kenyans with your charlatanism (if I may borrow the word from Kamale), don't think Ruto and camp with easily buy it.
Somebody wrote somewhere in this thread that it is very frustrating supporting flip-flopping ODM. That is very true. Although not that PNU are any better.
You know, Nation TV didn't start their news jaba jioni with ICC and Ocampo6. Why? My good guess is they have also realized that this ICC debates are so confusing and unfocused and not progressive at all.. Kenyans don't need to here such unenlightened news all the time.
Politicians, Mushindwe kabisa!
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Post by commes on Mar 26, 2011 8:53:30 GMT 3
I think that the newspapers are blowing the hiring of lawyers out of proportion. Besides I did not think that Ruto and co were going to accept it. For one they are not poor people so they can afford their defense. Its only Sang who should be financially supported needs there be. The rest can carry their own crosses or steal from the government to pay their expensive lawyers. The second reason why this would be unacceptable to Ruto and co even it were done in good faith is because it would portray ODM in good light and thats not so nice in their eyes. Anyways, now that they have said no, they wont turn around and say that help was not. But as Phil stated above, this was just but a wishful thinking from a handful of MPs. The newspapers are grateful for this Hague saga. They are in the business of making money and will skew stories to make a sell. Anyways, even before Hon. Ruto responded, the issue of hiring lawyers was beautifully said here by AO.Personally, I would not let a friend of my enemy hire legal representation for me. Number one, it is just an outright lie that ODM has hired three lawyers for the Hague warlords. Unless they picked up some jua kali lawyer from River Road, it is not possible to just hire 3 lawyers in a case of this magnitude with a snap of a finger. Secondly if you are going to hire a lawyer for me, you should be talking to me and asking my preferences and then we decide who are the most appropriate lawyers. I do not know when Ababu and co met Ruto and his fellow accused to work out those deals. To the best of my knowledge the two sides have been sniping faster that the Gadhafi snipers on roof tops. It is therefore obvious that no lawyer has been hired unless ODM M.Ps or other volunteers who are lawyers are willing to donate their time to go to the Hague. The problem for ODM here is that they are wasting their time and precious political capital on useless side shows. That is usually the domain of PNU and I think sensible people will tell some of these ODM leaders to shut up and focus on real issues even within the ICC debate. adongo Unless, Sang is so desperate, he may decide to eat off the palm of the ODM mockery serving. Ruto is smart to be hoodwinked nor stoop that low!
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 26, 2011 11:52:55 GMT 3
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Post by commes on Mar 26, 2011 12:47:56 GMT 3
I shall be grateful if you could enlighten some of us on what your core message or point is on this one
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 26, 2011 13:18:16 GMT 3
I shall be grateful if you could enlighten some of us on what your core message or point is on this one 1.Confusion and Contradiction within ODM brought about by divisions in the party will cause further fallouts eroding the support of the party where it previously had massive following. 2.It is too late to try to woo back the ODM Rebels. Generally after it is all said and done ordinary wananchis can see the writings on the wall for ODM, but ODM-Railas supporters are turning a blind eye on the political events at their own peril.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 26, 2011 17:20:02 GMT 3
This is the issue I wanted to look at as people here drown in cut and paste garbage from some Railaphobic idiots. I think there are still issues that can be discussed in Jukwaa. I will give my take on the situation shortly. Here we go: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000031874&cid=4&ttl=How%20Kibaki%20team%20plans%20to%20stall%20ICC How Kibaki team plans to stall ICC
BY ALEX NDEGWA President Kibaki team’s new strategy to win over and if not possible manipulate International Criminal Court judges to drop cases against ‘Ocampo Six’ can on Friday be revealed. Following advice from two United Kingdom barristers retained by the State for expert opinion on how to win a referral of the ICC cases to a local tribunal, Kenya plans to file a special application at The Hague by April 1. It will seek that Kenya’s challenge of admissibility of ICC cases and jurisdiction of The Hague’s court be delayed for six-months from the filing date.The President’s side, emboldened by the advice of the two foreign counsels, one of whom was ICC deputy prosecutor during the trial of former Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic, hopes the appointment of a new Chief Justice, Director of Public Prosecutions, and completion of judicial and police reforms, would soften the judges to let Kenya try post-election violence cases. It is clear from the new strategy that the President side has dropped shuttle diplomacy option of courting the UN for a one-year deferral, which had hit the brick wall anyway, and decided to engage ICC directly.The Standard obtained copies of the expert opinion given by the two British lawyers, Sir Geoffrey Nice, who has a record of prosecuting ICC cases, and Rodney Dixon, to Attorney General Amos Wako. There are also in this bundle AG’s instructions to the barristers; complete with a directive they should not let Kenya "be pushed into a corner with our pants down". The lawyers also anticipate that sections of ruling coalition may file counter-applications at The Hague, but declare to AG, "we must be ready to defend the Government against such attack". They also acknowledge public reports of divisions in the coalition may "undermine the credibility of our application". They also intend to argue such political tensions should be acknowledged as a "sign of health in a modern, pluralistic, parliamentary democracy especially one that has a coalition government". Their argument They will argue also that Kenya has been a State party of the ICC and should be accorded the respect it merits, rather than treating the country as an unwilling non- co-operating State referred to the ICC by the UN Security Council. The lawyers will contend this would be the impression created of Kenya if, "with its house already being put in order" it is denied the opportunity to take over the cases to prosecute, including those at the top of political, military and administrative hierarchies who merit. They will also argue the handling of Kenya’s plea could affect the credibility of the ICC, which could be reference to displeasure with ICC by African Union member states The lawyers warn against delays saying an application made after April 7, has diminished prospects of success since judges won’t be eager to relinquish a case once they begin poring through the evidence prior to confirmation of charges. They also intend to argue national courts can try the crimes under the new Constitution. According to the opinion from the two Queen’s Counsel dated March 12, which has been accepted by the AG, Kenya is supposed to question the admissibility of the case by April 1 so that "it sets the agenda for April 7", when three of six Kenyans are supposed to appear at The Hague. The second lot of suspects appear on April 8. Filing the cases before April 7, the strategists anticipate, would stop the appearance of the six before the judges from grabbing the spotlight in a way that may endorse the view that the cases should be tried at The Hague. The six-month strategy is said to be a window to allow the Government, whose deferral option action is opposed by Orange Democratic Movement, to buy time within which the critical judicial reforms would be in place. "By that date — inevitably some months after the April 1 initial application date — reforms will be much further advanced and Kenya’s position vis-‡-vis the ICC’s will be much stronger," the lawyers said. "Making an application now is much to be preferred and will be seen as an act of strength. Announcing that an application will be made in the future date is a weakness that would be picked and used by the prosecutor, and even the court itself, to deny Kenya to exercise its sovereign right to try its citizens,’’ the counsel advise. In his correspondence, Wako seems to be telling the lawyers that they should give value for money and ensure that the application does not fail. In his letter of March 21, to which he alludes to previous detailed brief he gave the counsel, Wako asks them to be careful because Kenya has only one chance to stall or delay the cases — which is now in their hands. Pushed into a corner Wako instructs Nice: "As you act on our instructions kindly ensure that we are not pushed into a corner ‘with our pants down’ because the hearing of the admissibility challenge is taking place earlier than anticipated." In their advice, the lawyers describe the task as onerous, but insist the application to challenge the cases on grounds of admissibility stands a good chance if their advice to Kenya is followed to the letter. "In our judgement the fight will be hard but provided the principles identified above are respected, then this is an application that should be brought," the lawyers conclude in the document. They also caution success depends on the Government’s determination to complete judicial and willingness to prosecute the high and the mighty. This could explain why the police this month started investigating post-election violence cases afresh. According to their plan, the lawyers intend to argue too for the suspension of the consideration of the charges — even though the Rome Statute does not expressly provide for that — citing the Government’s support for the ICC despite a hostile resolution by Parliament urging it to renounce the Rome Statue. According to the five-page document compiled by Nice and Dixon, the lawyers suggest a step-by-step application in the hope the six to seven months before confirmation process, which begins next month, would be sufficient to complete reforms to shore up Kenya’s claim it meets what, in ICC parlance, is called ‘complementarity.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 26, 2011 18:06:11 GMT 3
This is my take. 1. At last the government has come to terms with reality. After wasting a lot of time and money with the deferral fantasy the government is now doing what we have been telling them for months, namely, deal directly with ICC. 2. The idea of the government paying a fortune to private lawyers to represent the "government" is scandalous. In any country in the world, it is the AG that represents the government. The first question Ocampo should ask these people is whether they are the ones who will prosecute the Ocampo six should the case be referred to Kenya. Ocampo should ask them where the Kenyan AG is and why he is not representing the government. Isn't that in itself proof positive that the Kenyan judicial system is dysfunctional? 3. There is an inherent contradiction in the application. On one hand the application questions the admissibility of the case and on the other hand they are saying they accept the admissibility but need to be given time to take over the case. The Kibaki mob need to decide which is which. The admissibility matter is dead on arrival. It has been ruled on twice so that is a waste of time. In terms of being given time (six months) my sense is that there is no provision in Rome Statutes for that so the judges have no powers to make such a move. All we know is that unless the Kenyan government is already actively prosecuting the cases in a credible court the ICC case goes on. 4. The one funny thing here is that the one person who could help the Kibaki mob and the Ocampo six is the one guy they have been insulting at every funeral. That man is Luis Moreno Ocampo. After a full year of insults, innuendos and utter nonsense that Ocampo is a mercenary hired by Raila to lock people now their fate rests with the same Ocampo. Oh dear. Ocampo has the power to actually postpone the case indefinitely without even giving any reason to the judges. If Ocampo had faith and confidence that the Kenya government is serious about dealing with the cases he will give them the chance, assist them with whatever evidence he has and wait and see what happens. That will not happen because even an idiot can see the government is being run by the same suspects and there is no chance in hell that they are about to prosecute themselves. Ocampo also has a responsibility to the victims and the witnesses. Ironically, I can see a situation where after 2012 elections if Kenyans indeed elect a government committed to the rule of law the case being referred back to Kenya after the necessary mechanisms are establishment. In a way the Kibaki is the worst enemy of the Ocampo six. His inability to institute real reforms is why nobody trusts the Kenyan government. I think any chance for deferral in these cases rests with the next government. At least that way, if convicted the Ocampo boys get to serve time in Kenya. But then again being familiar with our jails, I would advise the Ocampo six to stick with the Hague. Compared to Kenyan jails, being locked at The Hague is like being held in a hotel suite. 5. It appears to me that some of the suspects and their groupies even here in Jukwaa are under the illusion that once the application is submitted everything will be on hold. Nope. The April 7/8 date still stand and all the suspects have to show up as required and the process will then formally begin, or else! The judges will schedule a hearing of the application. I think if the application was made earlier it would have been heard before the April 7 date. Now it is too late. But here is the real dilemma. The case being heard now is sure to fail because nothing has been done. Now as the government goes through the gimmicks of pretending to do something the trial will be going on as scheduled. 6. I get a sense that some of the suspects do not want to set foot at The Hague. Muthaura for one does not want to be in a plane headed to the Hague. I am not sure Uhuru wants to go there. It is going to be interesting to see how these chaps will handle the matter. It is one thing to be talking rubbish and chest thumping in rallies, it is quite another stepping into the unknown in a court at The Hague. As for Muthaura and Uhuru let them be warned that since Kibaki has ignored Ocampo's request to remove them from any positions in government that would enable them to interfere with witnesses and other aspects of the investigations, Ocampo is going to ask for more strict bail conditions. Uhuru said it is Kibaki who is his boss and it is Kibaki he listens to. Guess what, when he arrives in the court room at the Hague, he will face a different boss. His name is Luis Moreno Ocampo. He does not joke around. 7. The big question in the long run if these cases are ever to be referred back to Kenya at some time in future is to set the standards on what a credible local mechanism should be. In the short run Ocampo will just show the judges the recommendations of the Waki commission on what a credible local tribunal should be and tell the judges that the recommendations were accepted by cabinet and by parliament years ago and up to now the same cabinet and parliament has rejected the recommendations. Ocampo will also show them the agreement he signed with the AG, the minister for justice, James Orengo and our friend Miguna on July 2009 in which the government promised to set up a local tribunal and then failed to do so. But in the long run the question is whether now that the rubber has hit the road a tribunal can actually be set. I think Ocampo will insist on seeing a tribunal along the lines of the waki recommendations. Under the circumstances that may not be possible. I was amused the other day reading some vitriol from Ruto rubbishing Raila's idea of involving the Scotland Yard and FBI. Ruto claimed if the Kenya police is good enough to be body guards for Raila then they are good enough to carry out the investigations. This is the problem with Kenya politicians. Ruto cannot see that Raila is trying to save his ass. Having a credible investigative process could go along way in convincing the judges and Ocampo that there is a genuine attempt to solve the problem. Ruto never learned anything from his mentor, Arap Moi. When Moi was faced with a disaster after killing Robert Ouko in cold blood, Moi conned everybody, first by arresting Biwott and then after releasing him by inviting the Scotland Yard investigators. That is how he duped Kenyans into believing that something was being done. In the meantime Moi and Biwott went around killing every witness and after things calmed down the killers were all safe. If this whole thing was under Moi's watch he would have invited Scotland Yard the day Ocampo announced the names and there would be a fake tribunal in place as we speak. But then again those tricks can't work that well right now, can they? Right now it is all systems go straight to The Hague. adongo
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 26, 2011 23:27:35 GMT 3
Still fumbling in the dark but at least some people are having a debate by adults on where this thing goes. The dumbos are still thinking politics will save them from spending the rest of their lives at jail cells at The Hague. Shauri zao.
Here we go. This is interesting.
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Post by enigma on Mar 26, 2011 23:52:28 GMT 3
Quite disappointed with the unfortunate turn of things in ODM. Its quite telling that when prof gumbe takes charge, things go well. Nyong'o needs to desist from making any public statememts. He's not cut for public engagement, despite his sojourn at IPPR.
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Post by commes on Mar 27, 2011 0:10:19 GMT 3
Still fumbling in the dark but at least some people are having a debate by adults on where this thing goes. The dumbos are still thinking politics will save them from spending the rest of their lives at jail cells at The Hague. Shauri zao. Here we go. This is interesting. The debate on the link is interesting. There must be a reward out for anyone who will crack the code that will lock out the Hague process. The constitution is being examined by high powered lenses. This is unnecessary yet necessary. Deferral is being pursued into its grave, over and over again. Soon, I shall be selling resuscitation equipment that is capable of reviving this deferral thing from its tomb. This idea is not farfetched going by the hordes of persons heading out to Loliondo (Tanzania) to have a cup of arrow root soup that treats all ailments. For now, I will leave that option to daydreamers. Let us not be vague, it is Hague. The Ocampo6 dared the ICC and they got it.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 27, 2011 8:10:50 GMT 3
Adongo
Without cheapening your thoughts, I think you are completely wrong with respect to the AG appointing advocates to represent Kenya at the ICC. The case is being filed by Kenya through its Attorney General, but that AG can appoint lawyers to lead its case there. Even in Kenya, the AG has appointed lawyers to prosecute for the government or defend the government.
My reading of the opinion by the QCs is that the government needs to make their application to the PTC before April 7 so that confirmation hearings are delayed until the Kenyan application is heard and decided.
The ICC cannot commit the six when this application is being heard as it would be prejudicing the case filed by Kenya as well as the suspects who could have uncontested evidence being made public and to their detriment.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 27, 2011 16:32:23 GMT 3
Adongo Without cheapening your thoughts, I think you are completely wrong with respect to the AG appointing advocates to represent Kenya at the ICC. The case is being filed by Kenya through its Attorney General, but that AG can appoint lawyers to lead its case there. Even in Kenya, the AG has appointed lawyers to prosecute for the government or defend the government. My reading of the opinion by the QCs is that the government needs to make their application to the PTC before April 7 so that confirmation hearings are delayed until the Kenyan application is heard and decided. The ICC cannot commit the six when this application is being heard as it would be prejudicing the case filed by Kenya as well as the suspects who could have uncontested evidence being made public and to their detriment. Kamale,The only time I have seen private lawyers representing the government are in inquiries or commissions not in criminal proceedings. I think it would make sense if the AG sent state prosecutors under his supervision or went himself. If I was Ocampo I would bring up the dysfunctional characteristics of the Kenyan judicial system as demonstrated by the fact that their AG who would be the person to prosecute the Ocampo six if they referred to Kenya is a no show and the government had to hire private lawyers from a foreign country. I would question the trust between the government and its own AG and the prosecutorial system. We know the real issue is that Kibaki and the Ocampo six do not trust Amos Wako. In fact Ruto wanted him fired after the nomination fiasco. By the way I wouldn't be surprised if the nomination fiasco in which the suspects tried to appoint their own personal lawyers to take over the leadership of the so called reformed judicial system features. I am sure Ocampo is already in possession of all those furious correspondence with the UNSC from all sides. In hindsight Kibaki must now really regret that whole circus around nominations. Imagine the difference it would have made if today Kenya had a new CJ, AG and DPP all accepted by the country and seen as a breath of fresh air. It is that new AG who would be headed to The Hague now, not some foreign lawyers hired more as Kibaki's private lawyers and disguised as representing Kenya. In terms of timing, I think there are a lot of problems. The first issue is whether the April 7/8 dates should be postponed until after the application is heard. I am going to try digging up in the ICC website to find out how such applications work. What we know already is that the applications Kenya is making can be heard at any point in the process. That would imply that the ICC process itself does not prejudice any applications to refer the case back to the country in question. This means whatever evidence the ICC hears regarding the suspects will not be a hindrance to any referral. It is the credibility and competence of the judicial system of the applicant member state that matters. I wouldn't mind the application being heard right away. It is a slum dunk at the moment. The government will lose. They have no feet to stand on. There is nothing on the ground. The politicians are busy shouting in rallies and insulting the ICC claiming it is a mercenary entity being used by politicians. Nobody is putting or even working to help set up an STK. People who make suggestions on what needs to be done to convince the ICC to refer the case to Kenya are routinely lambasted by the combustive Ocampo mob. The suggestion that a special division of the High Court working under the International Crimes Act could handle the case has been shot down. The International Crimes Act was passed in Dec 2008, long after the merchants of death had stopped their PEV project and were now honourable ministers etc. The Kenyan law does not work retroactively, so that route is dead. You can be sure Ocampo has that information, he is a smart lawyer. So with that path closed it is obvious parliament will have to form a credible STK and given the politics of the day, that is next to impossible. They have to amend the constitution. That will require they take a break from fighting everyday. I don't see that happening any time soon. The other weird piece is that the Kibaki crew want to be given six months to set up something, whatever it is. I think they are asking for that because they know they have nothing now. The problem here is that there is no such provision in the Rome Statute. Kenya here is trying to ask for a deferral through the back door. Only the UNSC can handle deferral matters. So I don't see the ICC judges buying that trick. So yeah, if they want the application now then let them go ahead and lose so we can have uninterrupted trial at The Hague. The more sensible thing to do would be to let the trials begin, get your house in order without trying endless tricks then six months or one year down the line apply for a referral when you stand a better chance. Kibaki and the Ocampo six do not want that option because it means they have to head to the Hague and Kenyans will then start getting the real evidence of the crimes these people are charged with. That will not only ruin them financially but it will make a mockery of their political mantra of Raila sending them to the Hague. Kenyans will see if Raila planted the evidence or if they are dealing with hard core criminals who tried to destroy the country. In the meantime I found this interesting. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/How+spy+agency+helped+to+nail+the+Ocampo+Six++/-/1064/1133724/-/9xeeypz/-/index.html
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Post by kamalet on Mar 28, 2011 10:27:45 GMT 3
Adongo I get more and more convinced that you crusade on the Hague is not driven by any feelings for justice, but the political outcomes that the Hague options presents to your hopes. If you take this bit about the ICC or Ocampo being convinced that the Kenyan government is not capable of prosecuting anything on account of its hiring of foreign lawyers - this is really your give away. I can count countless instances where the AG has used private lawyers both locally and abroad - and this has been driven most times by lack of qualified state prosecutors/counsels or the need to have an independent person away from government structures. Reading yesterday's papers I notice that Mutula Kilonzo has aked that the two QC's be supported by a panel of Kenyan advocates to help in managing the Kenyan intricate state that the two QC's may not know. A good plan...if you ask me! If you look at the title of this thread, you will note that we are digressing from the confusion that is presented by ODM. In fact Billow Kerrow seems to capture it well when he talks of the doublespeak by ODM www.standardmedia.co.ke/columnists/InsidePage.php?id=2000031994&cid=612&
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Post by commes on Mar 28, 2011 11:15:53 GMT 3
Adongo I get more and more convinced that you crusade on the Hague is not driven by any feelings for justice, but the political outcomes that the Hague options presents to your hopes. If you take this bit about the ICC or Ocampo being convinced that the Kenyan government is not capable of prosecuting anything on account of its hiring of foreign lawyers - this is really your give away. I can count countless instances where the AG has used private lawyers both locally and abroad - and this has been driven most times by lack of qualified state prosecutors/counsels or the need to have an independent person away from government structures. Reading yesterday's papers I notice that Mutula Kilonzo has aked that the two QC's be supported by a panel of Kenyan advocates to help in managing the Kenyan intricate state that the two QC's may not know. A good plan...if you ask me! If you look at the title of this thread, you will note that we are digressing from the confusion that is presented by ODM. In fact Billow Kerrow seems to capture it well when he talks of the doublespeak by ODM www.standardmedia.co.ke/columnists/InsidePage.php?id=2000031994&cid=612& KamaleWhat Adongo seems to be saying is that we must act to protect what is right. Here are two simple scenarios. Scenario one: A team goes ahead and hires two foreign lawyers. The AG, unaware of how or when the hiring process was done has no option but to work with the two foreign lawyers. There was a lack of transparency and accountability. The impression is that there are some dark forces in the background pushing and implementing decisions without scrutiny. Scenario Two: Another suggests and seeks consensus in parliament for a credible investigation team since our police cannot investigate themselves and are due for reform. This appears to be an an open and transparent request that is condemned. The current constitutions provides for equality before law. However, there is a group that wishes to pick and choose which laws and options are applicable to them and their situation. They have demonstrated a frightening erosion of our institutions and democratic principles. What AO is saying is that we cannot rely on this crop of people to best serve the interests and affairs of this nation.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 28, 2011 11:59:14 GMT 3
KamaleWhat Adongo seems to be saying is that we must act to protect what is right. Here are two simple scenarios. Scenario one: A team goes ahead and hires two foreign lawyers. The AG, unaware of how or when the hiring process was done has no option but to work with the two foreign lawyers. There was a lack of transparency and accountability. The impression is that there are some dark forces in the background pushing and implementing decisions without scrutiny. I doubt I trust what Wako is saying as he is only accountable to himself on litigation for and against government. In anycase if Wako has issues in how they were procured, he can refuse to use them....or you can petition your MP to get an explanation as to whether the procurement law was followed. Scenario Two: Another suggests and seeks consensus in parliament for a credible investigation team since our police cannot investigate themselves and are due for reform. This appears to be an an open and transparent request that is condemned. The introduction of the word CREDIBLE is the ODM way of confusing people. ODM either agrees to a local process or it does not!! Is ODM saying that Kenya is incapable of having credible institutions and that we must go out bowl in hand asking for assistance from foreign institutions? What has ODM done in parliament to make the police of judiciary credible by their standards? We passeda new constitution to provide for such institutions - why is ODM struggling to trust the new document that they campaigned for?
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 28, 2011 17:46:48 GMT 3
Kamale,
Let me answer your three issues here.
1. You claim that my interest in The Hague process is motivated by politics not justice. To be honest with you that is an irrelevant issue at the moment. In any event I do not know what separates justice from politics. In a place or country with good politics, justice for all should be a big part of that. The fact that you guys have interest in politics which must be devoid of justice speaks volumes about what kind of politics that is. I think the politics of impunity is what we should all be against.
2. I find it curious that you seem to think that if the Ocampo six are tried at The Hague then that will derail their political careers and yet you want them tried in Kenya. Are you suggesting that a trial in Kenya is somehow guaranteed not to derail their political careers? Can we therefore conclude that you are more interested in the political careers of some of the suspects as opposed to justice for Kenyans killed and raped by thugs and cops.
3. For the record my interest in justice predates the dilemma of the Ocampo six by decades. I volunteered my time, my energy and damn near my life to fight for justice when the Ocampo six were still suckling Moi's political cleavage. What do you think was my motivation then?
4. The Wako issue on the application is a minor issue. The elephant in the tent is the rest of the matter we talked about there. I notice you have not objected to most of the issues raised so I assume you accept the challenge is huge if not insurmountable.
5. As to having a credible court before any referrals from the ICC can be done, there is no need to fret about the ODM. Ocampo has in his possession the Waki commission which made very specific recommendations on an STK and why it was necessary. Ocampo will provide that to the ICC judges. Ocampo also has in his possession an agreement signed by Wako and Mutula with the ICC stipulating that Kenya will form the STK to handle the cases.
Ocampo will not have much difficulty explaining why it was necessary to establish this kind of "CREDIBLE" entities to try the cases. No need to blame ODM. In fact it is going to emerge that a lot of the evidence Ocampo has came from the government. So the question is what have they been waiting for all these three years? We know the answer; the inmates are running the asylum. That is why we are headed to The Hague.
adongo
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