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Post by merlin on Mar 22, 2011 22:02:08 GMT 3
NAIROBI, Kenya Mar 22 - The Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) has softened its stand on the trial of the Ocampo Six and is now backing a referral - where the International Criminal Court sends back cases to the state party - if a credible local Tribunal is set up. The decision was reached after a Parliamentary Group and National Executive Council meeting at Orange House chaired by Party Leader Raila Odinga. Parliamentary Group Secretary Ababu Namwamba told a media briefing that they had resolved to ensure that the new constitution is fully implemented as scheduled. "ODM reconfirms the party's often stated position that in the event of a credible local Tribunal, the ICC process should be referred. The party is prepared to sponsor a Bill to fast track this process," Mr Namwamba said. He claimed that despite the party pushing for the formation of the Tribunal, evidence from Parliament's Hansard showed very clearly that a number of MPs now fighting The Hague were opposed to the formation of the local Tribunal. Party Secretary General Prof Anyang' Nyong'o also echoed Mr Namwamba's sentiments saying they would ask for a referral of the cases if the country formed a credible local Tribunal. Prof Nyong'o defended the party's apparent change of heart claiming that the party had been supporting the Hague option because there was no local Tribunal adding that the police had not been able to gather credible evidence as they are also mentioned in the post election violence case. The party has been opposed to a deferral (12-month suspension) of the cases which the government through Vice President Kalonzo Musyoka has been lobbying for. Their stand comes hardly three weeks after the party through Prof Nyong'o wrote to the United Nations Security Council declaring their support for the ICC process and urged it not to allow the deferral of the cases. The council however in its informal session last week declined to grant Kenya's' request to defer the case for a year. About 65 MPs attending the ODM meeting expressed support for the Premier in his push on reforms and the implementation of the Constitution during this transition period. The party urged MPs to participate in debates before the House aimed at implementation of the Constitution to ensure that they are complete before the next general elections. Speaking elsewhere, ODM Deputy Leader William Ruto who did not attend the meeting said that the party should be consistent on its stand on the ICC trials. Mr Ruto who is among the Ocampo Six suspects said: "It is only unfortunate that they do have a clear understanding of where they want to be and it demonstrates to us, their position is not informed by any commitment but by shifting political considerations. Who knows what they are going to say tomorrow?" "I would like to give them a piece of advice that they should go and look themselves in the mirror and ask themselves what it is that they are doing." Read more: www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/Kenyanews/ODM-roots-for-ICC-referral-with-local-Tribunal-12147.html#ixzz1HM9ijyef
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Post by commes on Mar 22, 2011 22:08:37 GMT 3
As far back as I can recall, ODM has always been for referral, until one Kalooser sprung up with this deferral nonsense.
I hope I can access links where the ODM leadership state that cabinet talked about referral and not deferral and that they have been supportive o a referral
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Post by mank on Mar 22, 2011 22:19:31 GMT 3
ooh, yeah ya ... credible tribunal ... how feasible is something credible when there is no credible intention to institute it?
Now all are clowns like Kalonzo. Where Kalonzo has "shuttle diplomacy" the new comers have "credible" labels. Its all BS!
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Post by kipfirimbi on Mar 23, 2011 2:31:16 GMT 3
ooh, yeah ya ... credible tribunal ... how feasible is something credible when there is no credible intention to institute it? Now all are clowns like Kalonzo. Where Kalonzo has "shuttle diplomacy" the new comers have "credible" labels. Its all BS! Mank, I agree and I want to add that its a no brainer that this is ODM playing politics with this issue. And why now? Grapevine has it that the majority of the 65 Mp some alienated to RV base and other parts other than Nyanza have their minds on deferral. ODM being odm decided to take such a common ground to stay and play safe to avoid disintegration!And/Or is this an attempt to call on Kibaki/KKK bluff on a local tribunal and chess play them into a forming one with some teeth to cut and chew? Obviously well aware that the Ocampo six are all a goner?
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Post by b6k on Mar 23, 2011 3:12:23 GMT 3
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Post by shifta on Mar 23, 2011 4:36:04 GMT 3
ODM, PNU, NARC, this NARC that, zote are bankrupt parties with no msimamo. I think Ruto and Uhuru's campaigns are having traction on the ground and it is scaring the oft-times clue-less party of the PM.
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Post by reporter911 on Mar 23, 2011 5:23:52 GMT 3
Hey they Uhuru & Ruto and their cahoots can scare some Kenyans or bribe some, But Ocampo =ICC has them bagged.. Kenyans on the ground can tell them what they want to hear! but they are not the judges that they will be facing at the ICC.. NO TURNING BACK PALS .. HAGUE IS WAITING FOR THEM!! NA WATA ENDA WAPENDE WASIPENDE.. TIME OUT APRIL 7 IS AROUND THE CORNER, WHY ARE UHURU & RUTO SPEWING SPIT ALL OVER THE PLACE? ALAH!!! THEY SHOULD IRON THEIR SUITS FOR THEIR APPOINTMENT AT THE ICC
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Post by owuor on Mar 23, 2011 5:57:09 GMT 3
This is not suprising. Its all about 2012 presidential campaigns.
I pity those Kenyans who still have an iota of faith in these crooks that we call leaders. I have been called names here by saying raila is no better, he is just a crook, a hypocrite that has been able to ride on the gullibility of some section of Kenyans. Not only has he and his family engaged in sleaze (molasses, malindi squatters, maize...), the company of who is who in Kenyan corruption history forms his inner circle. On the other hand, Kibaki has perfected the art of stealing and looking innocent at the same time. Simply, these two are twins joined at the hip. Kenyans should demand better by sending these senior citizens and their servants to retirement next year and electing young Kenyans who are not tainted by post MOI ills.
Sadly, as evident in some comments in this post, some people have alreadly started humming the new referral song after shouting their voices hoarse with hague songs until yesterday. No wonder these politicians have little respect and regard for our intelligence.
Owuor
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 23, 2011 6:36:19 GMT 3
ODM, PNU, NARC, this NARC that, zote are bankrupt parties with no msimamo. I think Ruto and Uhuru's campaigns are having traction on the ground and it is scaring the oft-times clue-less party of the PM. Sure! I am afraid ODM is a little late on this one. The train has long left the station.
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Post by b6k on Mar 23, 2011 8:02:19 GMT 3
When William Ruto begins to make sense then you know KE is in trouble... I’m ready to surrender to ICC, says Kenya PM Raila Posted in November 9th, 2009 by Editor in Nairobi Kenya Prime Minister Raila Odinga answers questions during an interview in Nairobi. By Emeka-Mayaka Gekara, Citizen Correspondent, Nairobi Prime Minister Raila Odinga on Saturday declared he would surrender to the International Criminal Court (ICC) if prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo builds a strong case linking him to the post-election violence. “I will not wait to be arrested. I will volunteer information,” he said. Speaking to the Sunday Nation, Mr Odinga also backed the decision by the ICC to appoint a three-judge bench to assess the Kenyan case. He said the government would fully cooperate with Mr Ocampo in his efforts to bring the post-election violence suspects to account. “President Kibaki and I agreed that the prosecutor should proceed with his work and Kenya would cooperate. ” The Prime Minister said they could not make a formal referral of the Kenyan case to the ICC because they did not want Kenya to join the league of failed states. “We also didn?t want to show that our judicial system had failed,” he said. But the PM could not say if his party ODM would readily hand over any of its key members to the ICC if required. ?We have not reached that hurdle yet, ”he said. He defended the government?s record on reforms, accusing the media of failure to highlight any gains made. Among the achievements, Mr Odinga cited disbandment of the Kivuitu-led Electoral Commission of Kenya, ongoing drafting of the new constitution, the Kazi kwa Vijana (jobs for youth) scheme and establishment of Truth Justice and Reconciliation Commission as well as the boundaries review commission. He also pointed out part of the government ’s effort to reform the police force. “Kenyans forget that we also had to wait for the Kriegler and Waki commissions to give us reports before we could start the process of enacting certain reforms, ”he said. However, Mr Odinga stressed the need for more reforms in the Judiciary and at the State Law Office. On the mapping out of constituency boundaries, he said he believes that both population and geographical factors are important in the exercise. He said the performance of the State Law Office is an issue of major concern to him but defended the Attorney-General over allegations of failure. “We cannot entirely blame the Attorney-General on the failures of his office. We have noted a systematic blame game between the AG ’s office, the Kenya Anti Corruption Commission and even the Judiciary. “On one hand, KACC says it is handicapped as it lacks prosecutorial powers. On the other, the AG says he has not got comprehensive evidence to sustain cases. That is why we are keen on total reforms in these institutions, ” the PM said. On constitution review, the PM was optimistic that a consensus would be reached as the differences that led to the rejection of the draft law in 2005 ?have really narrowed ”. “We have set up a team from both sides of the coalition to harmonise our positions. We have a problem because some people have invented what they want to be seen as contentious issues. For instance, the kadhi courts were not contentious in 2005. We appeal to the stakeholders to avoid unnecessary antagonism so that we can a new constitution once and for all, ”he said. Speaking in Kibera later on, he said the government would present a draft constitution for a referendum vote only after everyone has agreed with its contents. The PM said the government had resolved to avoid a constitutional referendum where Kenyans will be asked to vote to either approve or reject the new laws like it happened in 2005. “This time round we have agreed that we will not go to a referendum before agreeing, so that we all vote in one accord,” he said. Source: www.thecitizen.co.tz/ newe.php?id=15442
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Post by merlin on Mar 23, 2011 10:59:02 GMT 3
Colours of MEDIAODM is insisting that trials of the suspects of post-election violence should only be done in Kenya if a credible local tribunal was put in place. The party clarified that it supported referral, and not deferral of the cases. "ODM reconfirms that the party’s often stated position that in the event of a credible local tribunal, the ICC process should be referred. The party is prepared to sponsor a Bill to fast track the process," the party said in a statement. Party Secretary General Anyang’ Nyong’o, however, said the Government had not yet established a credible tribunal and investigation by the Police Force could not be trusted. "What we are saying is that if there is credible local tribunal and investigation, we support the referral; but as matters stand today, there is no credible investigation. The Government is tittering and the police who were incriminated in the post-election crimes cannot be trusted to investigate themselves," said Prof Nyong’o. Efforts shot downBudalang’i MP Ababu Namwamba, who is the secretary of the party’s parliamentary group, said ODM had fought hard in Parliament for the setting up of a local tribunal, but the efforts were shot down by some MPs who were now calling for deferral. "It is to be noted that it is the ODM that pushed hardest on the floor of the House for the setting up of a local tribunal, but the effort was thwarted by MPs who are now engaging in political sideshows to lay blame on ODM," said Namwamba. The MP, who read the statement, said some of the MPs who are now opposed to The Hague process and were rooting for the formation of a local tribunal had earlier opposed it, noting their utterances are documented in the Hansard. Quoting from the Hansard, Namwamba said Government Chief Whip Johnstone Muthama, for instance, was opposed to the local tribunal and wondered what had changed following the naming of the Ocampo six. Muthama had said tribalism had entrenched itself in the country and it would be fair to take the suspects of murder to The Hague as the country does not have the capacity to try them locally. Expressed surpriseNamwamba explained that all the MPs said during the Motion on the formation of the local tribunal was on record and expressed surprise on change of heart among the leaders. He was reading a press statement following a joint National Executive Committee and Parliamentary Group meeting at Orange House attended by the party leader, Raila Odinga. Cabinet ministers Charity Ngilu, Fred Gumo, Mohammed Elmi, Paul Otuoma, Nyong’o and more than 65 MPs attended the meeting. www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000031740&cid=4&
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 23, 2011 11:42:45 GMT 3
The 85 % "Kenyans " prefer Hague Song by some Jukwaaist has changed . Hypocrisy at its best.
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Post by einstein on Mar 23, 2011 12:26:37 GMT 3
The 85 % "Kenyans " prefer Hague Song by some Jukwaaist has changed . Hypocrisy at its best. Nothing has changed on Jukwaa. Please stop childish heckling on this board. The 6 are going to The Hague in 14 days' time as scheduled and NO one can stop that. OO, please we could do with less heckling on this board!
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Post by b6k on Mar 23, 2011 13:29:16 GMT 3
The 85 % "Kenyans " prefer Hague Song by some Jukwaaist has changed . Hypocrisy at its best. Nothing has changed on Jukwaa. Please stop childish heckling on this board. The 6 are going to The Hague in 14 days' time as scheduled and NO one can stop that. OO, please we could do with less heckling on this board!Interesting exchange, this. It's akin to a punch drunk boxer, cornered on the ropes motioning to the referee for assistance so that he can have a much needed breather....
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Post by merlin on Mar 23, 2011 14:23:08 GMT 3
The 85 % "Kenyans " prefer Hague Song by some Jukwaaist has changed . Hypocrisy at its best. Nothing has changed on Jukwaa. Please stop childish heckling on this board. The 6 are going to The Hague in 14 days' time as scheduled and NO one can stop that. OO, please we could do with less heckling on this board! EinsteinHeckling? Things that hurt are our own doubts. I perceive a principal difference between the referral of ODM and the referral of PNU and this should be clear. The referral of PNU is focused on a few perpetrators and a means to escape Justice, getting away with murder. It is solely related to Uhuru Kenyatta and Muthaura and how to whitewash them in a local tribunal process. The referral of ODM is focused on Justice for everyone. It is a must for Kenya to upgrade their Justice system to international standards. However it will take some time to upgrade the system as Anyang’ Nyong’o pointed out. It will not be realistic to request for referral for the 6 suspected criminals of crimes against humanity. The request for referral is an academic discussion. There is no need for referral to upgrade the justice system in Kenya to international standards and bring any suspected perpetrator of POV before this court (except the current 6 before ICC). ODM does not need to discuss or made statements about referral. Maybe ODM could work together with Gitobu Imanyara to set-up a tribunal for POV emphasizing the difference between conservative and progressive forces.
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 23, 2011 15:13:08 GMT 3
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Post by einstein on Mar 23, 2011 15:57:22 GMT 3
Nothing has changed on Jukwaa. Please stop childish heckling on this board. The 6 are going to The Hague in 14 days' time as scheduled and NO one can stop that. OO, please we could do with less heckling on this board! EinsteinHeckling? Things that hurt are our own doubts. I perceive a principal difference between the referral of ODM and the referral of PNU and this should be clear. The referral of PNU is focused on a few perpetrators and a means to escape Justice, getting away with murder. It is solely related to Uhuru Kenyatta and Muthaura and how to whitewash them in a local tribunal process. The referral of ODM is focused on Justice for everyone. It is a must for Kenya to upgrade their Justice system to international standards. However it will take some time to upgrade the system as Anyang’ Nyong’o pointed out. It will not be realistic to request for referral for the 6 suspected criminals of crimes against humanity. The request for referral is an academic discussion. There is no need for referral to upgrade the justice system in Kenya to international standards and bring any suspected perpetrator of POV before this court (except the current 6 before ICC). ODM does not need to discuss or made statements about referral. Maybe ODM could work together with Gitobu Imanyara to set-up a tribunal for POV emphasizing the difference between conservative and progressive forces. Merlin, My position has always been and still is that the 6 suspects get tried in The Hague and the rest of the PEV suspects be tried in Kenya as soon as we've carried out the necessary reforms. So I fail to understand it when some claim here that Jukwaaists have changed their positions. Such absurd claims are what I refer to as heckling. And we have a few characters on this board who have specialised in such kind of heckling. If people have nothing to rebut, then they better keep off the board! And by the way, there is a whole difference between referral and deferral and ODM's position has not changed in either case.
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Post by commes on Mar 23, 2011 15:59:37 GMT 3
nowayhaha, I have not shifted ground, there was an earlier reference. I am digging for this evidence www.nation.co.ke/News/-/1056/1096104/-/11fd5h3z/-/index.htmlMusyoka and a few other ministers were not sanctioned by the Cabinet, and therefore did not reflect the government position. “I can tell you that we never talked about the issue of shuttle diplomacy,” said Mr Odinga. He added: “What we agreed on was referral and not deferral of the cases involving the post-election violence suspects.” The PM’s party, ODM has made it clear, through deputy party leader Musalia Mudavadi, that the shuttle diplomacy mission is not a decision of the Cabinet. In the meantime, I have seen Mutula is under pressure to submit a challenge to admissibility on or before April 01. Now this is what I call a practical joke. April 01 has long been associated with pranks and hoaxes. ICC matters are serious. We have never been faced with it. This thing is about who blinks first. Behind this entire charade, the ICC process churns on, deals are being cut, the population entertained or brainwashed. We have been told, and we are in the know, that the government can challenge admissibility of cases as per the provisions of the much hyped article 19 of the Rome Statutes. For this to happen, there must be actual on-going national proceedings. The prosecutions must be against the same persons and for the same crimes. A challenge on admissibility of cases based on future proceedings is a non starter. Question is, why are our brilliant lawyers the AG and Mutua Kilonzo pursuing a futile exercise? Could this be dubbed an advance April fool’s day prank? Is it that they are under firm instruction to do so when they know and we know that the conditions have not been met? Of course a deal must have been reached between PNU and ODM to push for a referral. Knowing PORK, this is not about the Ocampo6. It is about himself, to protect his legacy. The aim of this local process is to prevent evidence emerging that could taint him, and by extension protection to his allies John Githongo, the president's former anti-graft czar once said that “There is no precedent in the history of the president to protect anyone other than himself. He is not known to stick his neck out for anyone, except Kibaki" PORK’s legacy is on the line but it comes with a baggage to protect the Ocampo3.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 23, 2011 17:17:48 GMT 3
merlin, commes & others,
You are dealing with political warthogs. There are folks, some Jukwaa newbies included who take every statement and media release as an end in itself. They jump on one thing today and it is the end of the world. They have zero capacity and interest in putting stuff in context, looking at the totality of circumstances and then making logical conclusions or analysis.
So according to them ODM's statement yesterday that the party will support an a credible local tribunal to take up PEV cases including those of the Ocampo crew means the Ocampo six are now home dry and ODM has succumbed yada yada. Reading their rants one would be mistaken for believing that all that is needed now is for Raila and the ODM to write to the ICC and the killers are free and do not have to deal with Ocampo. Talk about manifest nonsense to borrow the words of the one the Ocampo boys.
But sometimes we tend to use the endless fatalistic and warthog politics of these fellas to actually help put things in their proper perspective. So they still play an important role here in Jukwaa. I think merlin and other have done a lot of that already, but I will say the following.
1. The deferral case is dead. That was the role of the UNSC to do and if they had done it the ICC would have no option but to accept that. It would be ridiculous for the ICC to take a hostile position against the UNSC. So even though we all knew that article 16 of the UN statutes that the Kibaki was leaning on to get the deferral does not apply in the Kenyan case, nobody took any chances.
Kenyans should be very proud of themselves that they made their voices heard by UNSC representatives in New York. The 1.4 million Kenyans who signed their petition against deferral, the civil society groups who mobilized a brilliant campaign, the political parties like ODM who made their stand known and all Kenyans should be very proud that you stopped the deferral move. It is now dead and gone. The UNSC member states did not even discuss it formally or informally. So people need to get their heads out of the deferral corner. It is history except for Kalonzo who is still waiting for a meeting.
2. The PNU hawks do not know what to do next. First they thought the Africa mass ICC pull out move that some of their quack advisors have been talking about could work. Nothing doing. If they want to out of the ICC they will have to do it themselves. That is an option loaded with a million land mines. They want to travel that route go ahead and the suspects become international fugitives.
3. The ODM statement yesterday was absolutely correct. In fact it is not up to the ODM to make that call. That is the right of every member state in good standing to file under article 19 of the Rome Statute to have any cases involving their citizens and jurisdiction tried by the country. If states were not given that option nobody would ever sign the Rome Statute without losing their sovereignty.
What the Rome statute provides for is to ensure that rogue states do not abuse the clause to take over cases they are unable and unwilling to handle fairly. Commes have explained that here.
In fact a few weeks ago went through the whole debate and job even posted the video link from the ICC folks who were even featured in Kenyan TV explaining that ICC does not defer cases the way the UNSC was supposed to. In fact it is more of inferral than anything.
For the ICC to even consider an application under Article 19, the Kenyan government has to show they have the right courts (Special Tribunal), proper investigative mechanism, witness protection and are actively prosecuting the same individuals for the same crimes.
Then government has to take all that to the ICC which will be going on with the cases starting April 7, 2011 and if at some time the ICC is satisfied that Kenya is able to handle the cases they can be transferred to Kenya and that can be at any stage. What the ICC cannot and will not do is to give Kenya any period of time to establish some mechanisms in future to try the suspects. That is what Kibaki and his Ocampo six wanted and they will never get that from the ICC. They could only get that from the UNSC.
4. The other option tied to 3 above is the admissibility issue. So far the AG and minister for justice want to go the admissibility route. Their argument so far is to try what the dissenting judge ruled which is to say that, yes crimes were committed but they are NOT crimes that fall under the ICC threshold. Mutula has demanded that the AG prepares the application by April 1, 2011.
It is a foolish move but these guys have been known to do worse. The admissibility argument has already been ruled on 2-1 twice. Taking the same argument before the same judges is insanity - doing the same thing and expecting different results. It usually doesn't work very well. If they want to argue the admissibility issue they are better off waiting until after the confirmation and take it to the next court however the ICC only allows that contest once except under very extreme circumstances.
5. In all these one thing that comes through is that Kibaki and the Ocampo six do not want to submit to the process because that triggers off a million other things including freezing of assets and bail conditions which are only going to get tighter. However to even have a remote chance of the ICC eventually handling the cases over to Kenya, the Ocampo six have to comply, go to the Hague and be good boys. There is no guarantee that the ICC will ever surrender the cases anyway, so you go there and you are at their mercy. That is what they do not want to do.
6. It is very important for Kenya to put pressure on politicians not to screw up. That includes ODM. We have to keep their feet on fire. For example the Kibaki hawks do not want to a Independent Tribunal, but instead want to claim that the courts have been reformed enough and there will be a new AG, CJ yada yada and then they will try to set up a division of the High to handle to go hoodwink the ICC.
That is where we want ODM to stand firm and make it clear they will not be party to any such nonsense and if needs be they will take their case directly to the ICC were the PNU chaps to try any such thing. The ODM has to insist on a Tribunal as stipulated by the Waki report. That is what is called fighting smart.
If the other side really wants a serious Tribunal, you can't just oppose it for the sake of opposition. But if they come up with the kind of fake stuff they have in the works then you have a perfect opportunity to explain to Kenyans where you stand and why. In any war you pick your battles. You don't just ran like a mad man to every scene. If your enemies need a little more rope to hang themselves, kindly give it to them. What they do with it is their problem.
My conclusion is that as the countdown to April 7 come down to weeks, there will be no shortage of theatre and drama. It might be nice though if people can tie things together before jumping around with their new discovered sliced bread which turns out to be a rotten ugali someone threw into the garbage ca.
adongo
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Post by job on Mar 23, 2011 19:03:27 GMT 3
Folks,I must agree with Einstein that there’s been a lot of heckling in this forum lately – some quality control is in order. The Administrator should guard against mashada-ization of JUKWAA into a childish blog. We need good analysis – from whichever position – just argue your points and keep vile language, foul tone and tribal rants out. Essentially referral (which is what the Prime Minister recommended before the shuttle diplomacy business started) will lead to formation of a local Tribunal. My take is – there’s fundamentally little difference between a local Tribunal and the ICC process. Why? Because if a credible and independent Tribunal (acceptable to both Kenyans and the International Community including the ICC) is to be formed, it would have to be modeled as per the Waki Commission Recommendations! Its location would be local, but composition, not very local!And that precisely means:(a) Judges – of the 3 Trial Chamber Judges, only 1 (Presiding Judge) is Kenyan with the other two Judges being non-Kenyan (foreigners within the commonwealth). Of the 3 Appeal Chamber Judges, only 1 (Presiding Judge) is Kenyan, with the other 2 being non-Kenyan (foreigners within the commonwealth). That ensures neutrality and credibility. The Presiding Kenyan Judges for either Chamber are recommended by the Chief Justice then appointed subject to NARA terms – consultation between President and Prime Minister. Any contestation from any party to the appointing process robs the credibility requirement. Parliament must also approve the appointment. The 4 non-Kenyan Judges (2 in Trial Chamber and 2 in Appeal Chamber) are picked by the Panel of Eminent African Personalities led by Kofi Annan from amongst persons qualified to be Judges within the Commonwealth.(b) Special Prosecutor – is a non-Kenyan (foreigner from the commonwealth), picked by the Panel of Eminent African Personalities led by Kofi Annan from amongst persons qualified to be Superior Court Judges within the Commonwealth. This could turn out to be a meaner and more competent ‘sheriff’ than the Argenitian Amigo at the ICC – Moreno Ocampo. This Special Prosecutor shall have authority to recruit and control his own prosecution staff to assist in prosecutions.(c) Chief Investigator - the head of investigations and not less than three other members of the investigation team shall be non-Kenyan so as to provide an independent approach to the investigation function of the Tribunal. Experienced investigators from the FBI, Scotland Yard, etc will be considered by the Panel of Eminent African Personalities led by Kofi Annan. The investigations team shall report to and work under the general direction of the non-Kenyan Prosecutor. The Chief Investigator ( AND NOT KENYA POLICE) shall take custody of all investigative material and witness statements and testimony PREVIOUSLY collected and recorded by the Waki Commission (materials which were passed to the ICC). The Kenya Police too will be investigated, remember! (d) Registry – to be manned by a non-Kenyan head (& team) appointed bythe Panel of Eminent African personalities led by Kofi Annan, to prevent victimization of potential witnesses and victims. It will receive a lot of donor support - you can bet!
And witness protection will have to be weaned off Uhuru Kenyatta's influence since he is currently the Minister of Finance who sits in the Board of the current Witness Protection Program. Either amendment of the Witness Protection Act or Uhuru stepping aside. Ditto for Francis Muthaura... he has to step aside for this Tribunal to work unencumbered . (e) Defense Office – set up locally with head appointed through recommendation of Judiciary & subject to NARA terms. (f) The Tribunal is to be insulated away from Jurisdiction & interference by local court orders.It is in view of this reality that the ODM is kosher with a Local Tribunal taking over Prosecution of the Ocampo six. It’s not a walk in the park, neither is it a similar court to Chief Magistrate Gilbert Mutembei’s court - that has just sanitized William Ruto over the land fraud case. I frankly think it might turn out to be a tougher and more focused court than the ICC. In the meantime, let’s also keep in mind that by the time such a credible Tribunal is formed, the ICC process would already be long underway. Here's the PM's take in Parliament over the same issue: www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/PM+says+local+trials+require+independent+bodies/-/1064/1131542/-/aryd4lz/-/index.htmlProve your innocence at Hague, Ocampo Six told Prime Minister Raila Odinga has said the Ocampo Six should not fear facing the International Criminal Court to absolve themselves “instead of shouting all over the place about their innocence".
In one of his hardest hitting statement on the ICC controversy in the recent past, Mr Odinga said it was sad that justice for the 1,133 Kenyans “who were killed like rats’’ in the election violence had been ignored as some leaders inundate the political scene with statements of support for the suspect and and their claim to innocence.
“We cannot all the time be talking about the innocence of the six. More than 1,300 Kenyans were killed, some were burnt in a church and in Naivasha others were shot. Justice for them must also be done.
"That innocence of the six and 10 others must be proved through a fair judicial process. If you are mentioned, go through the process,’’ Mr Odinga while responding to a question by Mutito MP Kiema Kilonzo during the Prime Minister’s time in Parliament Wednesday.
“If you are a suspect do not tell us you are innocent. Go and clear your name there (at the Hague),’’ he said in reference to the Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta, Head of the Civil Service Francis Muthaura, Postmaster General Hussein Ali, Tinderet MP Henry Kosgey, his Eldoret North counterpart William Ruto and radio presenter Joshua Sang.
He cited his own experience when he was arrested and detained at Kamiti Maximum Prison for six months over treason charges following the 1982 attempted coup.
“I went through the torture and difficulties and bad conditions at the prison for six months because my conscience was clear, I was innocent but did not have to shout about it,’’ he told the House.
He restated that ODM's position has been for a referral of the Kenyan case where the six and any other perpetrators would be tried through a credible judicial mechanism.
The local judicial mechanism he said, must be credible with investigations done by foreign investigators such as the FBI and Scotland Yard and prosecutors picked through a transparent process.
“As for now the Kenya police, cannot investigate because they also stand accused of perpetrating the criminality through shootings and killings,’’ he said.
He discounted reports that his party had changed its position on the ICC trials.
“ODM has never contradicted itself. This is the position we have always held."
He explained that the party is of the view that the country moves ahead to create a credible tribunal to try the suspects and then apply for referral.
“As far as we are concerned, a deferral will be of no use to the accused persons because it will be done for only one year leaving them with a stigma of charges hanging around their necks,’’ said Mr Odinga, the ODM party leader.
The PM also had some harsh words on those behind the shuttle diplomacy fronted by Vice President Kalonzo Musyoka, dismissing the effort as a total waste of public funds.
“That shuttle diplomacy that involved talking to leaders some here and there, some of whom are potential candidates for the ICC was totally uncalled for and a waste of resources,’’ he added. Mr Kilonzo had asked the PM to explain to the House the position of ODM on ICC saying the controversy over the trials had caused concern to the investors and threatened the country’s economy.
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Post by commes on Mar 23, 2011 20:41:00 GMT 3
Well said Gentlemen! Solid input. A participatory and consultative process would provide PNU with credible headways. Why do they find it so difficult to embrace ODM in these matters? Must everything be done in the dark in a thieving manner? For instance, on the admissibility issue neither the Prime Minister nor its representatives in the cabinet sub committee on ICC were consulted. All the people who attended the meeting that arrived at that decision were from PNU. Why is the government wasting precious taxpayers’ money to initiate a process that’s dead from the beginning? IDP would benefit immensely from such loose change it appears. An opinion on the Kenyan situation by Sir Nice and Rodney Dixon, lawyers engaged by Kenya, conclude in the letter that “statistical assessment of prospects of the success of filing the admissibility case will be difficult in the extreme. The government has been advised, reminded and told from the roof tops that Kenya could only succeed in challenging the case if it had established proper mechanisms to investigate the crimes committed during the post-election chaos. Police are suspects in the crimes committed and would not investigate themselves. It would be inappropriate for any section of Government to make unilateral decisions on this weighty matter The government’s failure to start investigations into the violence or prosecutions of those suspected to have perpetrated the violence give the application little chance of success at the ICC. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/ODM+disowns+efforts+to+challenge+ICC+cases/-/1064/1131608/-/70iqm1z/-/index.html
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 23, 2011 21:18:47 GMT 3
Commes,
That is exactly the thing I was talking about when it comes to Kibaki and his PNU fumblers and bumblers. For them everything has to be framed within the prism of fighting Raila and ODM.
Look the fiasco with the UNSC deferral. They spent a fortune roaming and visiting some thuggish African dictators talking about deferral and yet they had no time to hold any serious discussions and consultations with their own partners in government. It was easier for them to send envoys to Zimbabwe and Libya to ask ask for this deferral thing of theirs and yet too much for them to call their ODM counterparts and reason with each other. Even in Addis at the AU meeting their main feature was a video about Raila. How are you going to get anywhere as a government with such foolishness.
When the whole thing finally flopped in its face they then turned around to blame Raila as having wrote a letter to the UNSC which buried them.
Now they have another move to save the Ocampo toys and just as before they have started it by framing it within the parameters of fighting ODM. They will lose this again and blame ODM. These guys are real political ng'ombes. No plan, no thinking, just do dumb things as long as you are fighting Raila and the ODM.
In my heart I pray they apply for this admissibility crap of theirs. They will fail again rather badly and that will be the end of the story. ICC only accepts one application for admissibility and right now Kenya is at its worst possible position to win it. There is absolutely no local process, not even a fake one. Kibaki and his honchos cannot mint a bogus process on the run. It will bury their case further.
The Application will have to be heard in a few days and most likely before the April 7 date with Ocampo. The whole purpose of this is because the Ocampo six are bent on not showing up at the Hague. They are scared shitless.
Please ODM, let them go ahead and take your case to the ICC just like you did with the UNSC. The civil society folks will be there too as friends of the victims. Let's meet them at The Hague within two weeks and get this thing over with once and for all. I am going to church about this after all god only gets to see me in the church once in a long time. Now I am coming to ask God to grant Kibaki and his nut case friends the stupidity to apply on the admissibility angle. I am dead serious. I am heading to church tonight for major prayers
adongo
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Post by tnk on Mar 23, 2011 22:15:54 GMT 3
Commes,That is exactly the thing I was talking about when it comes to Kibaki and his PNU fumblers and bumblers. ....... In my heart I pray they apply for this admissibility crap of theirs. They will fail again rather badly and that will be the end of the story. ICC only accepts one appeal for admissibility and right now Kenya is at its worst possible position to win it. There is absolutely no local process, not even a fake one. Kibaki and his honchos cannot mint a bogus process on the run. It will bury their case further. The Appeal will have to be heard in a few days and most likely before the April 7 date with Ocampo. The whole purpose of this is because the Ocampo six are bent on not showing up at the Hague. ........ Now I am coming to ask him to give Kibaki and his nut case friends the stupidity to appeal on the admissibility angle. I am dead serious. adongo adongo i too have been sitting quietly on the sidelines hoping that they apply for inadmissibility and since its a one time only offer once it falls flat then the hague shuttle will be secure its a catch 22 or more precisely a perilous conundrum in order to be considered, as commes noted elsewhere and job, yourself and a few others have brilliantly penned, the six have to be charged with the exact same offenses plus more if they so wish. but hehehe if they are charged with these offenses, it assumes a totally different dimension. some of those offenses are not bailable. and once charged, the two or three have to step aside (which is one of the reasons they do not want to go to the hague in the first place and are forced to step aside or be detained) but then if they are charged, they are going to be glaring holes in the prosecution, why? first extra-judicial killings have malizad a few witnesses. the core prosecution witnesses have been airlifted to european cities and beyond so whats left though still credible are missing a big chunk. would the ICC risk sharing its evidence and witnesses with a system which one of the suspects controls the police/security forces is in charge of state house where some of the meetings took place, while yet another suspect controls the budgetary resources of the nation. i mean come-on lets be serious here, credible, incredible or incredulous there is no end of extra-judicial killings in the foreseeable future, would those witnesses currently in safe houses out of the country voluntarily come back to kenya to testify? i don't think so if kibaki wants to save these guys, he has to charge them and lock them up in kamiti for 2-10 years while awaiting outcome of cases- but he cant/wont do that hehehe PNU is attempting to chop a mugumo tree with a broken razor blade
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 23, 2011 23:31:22 GMT 3
Folks,I know job posted this already but I will do it again. This is exactly the position Raila and the ODM should take. Stop bemberezaring organizers of mass killings, rape and displacement. Take the side of their victims and for once speak for the victims and their families. Where is the justice for them? Why are suspected mass murderers running amok in the country wearing their crimes as a badge of honour for which they should be applauded rewarded with political offices. Uhuru actually has been going around claiming burning children in their homes in Naivasha was an act of saving "his people". Today Raila laid it on the table for them. The questioner, Kiema Kilonzo thought he was being cute asking what the position of ODM was on the matter and talking about investments. He got the PM's full attention and now he and others know exactly what the position is. You cannot commit heinous crimes against Kenyans including children and then turn around be crying that you are the victim. That nonsense should be addressed head on. Let them go to the Hague and prove their innocense and stop bothering Kenyans. This here was a good start by the PM. I bet you none of the Ocampo six rent an M.P will dare ask that question again in parliament. The PM told them the truth and they all shut up and listened carefully. That was a good start. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/PM+says+local+trials+require+independent+bodies/-/1064/1131542/-/aryd4lz/-/index.html
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Post by b6k on Mar 24, 2011 12:15:36 GMT 3
Mark Twain said, "a lie well told is immortal". Within 2 weeks Kenyans will appreciate the true nature of the synthesis between deferral & referral...
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