|
Post by adongo23456 on Mar 29, 2011 17:50:44 GMT 3
Kamale If Uhuru wanted to woe, and I use the word woe deliberately - not [... invitation to the people of Nyanza to follow his group ], he would humbly go to Nyanza, and speak with them, not go to Central province and talk at them. These warped methods of doing things reflect insincerity and commitment. Let Uhuru go to Nyanza, appeal to their pain and empathise with those who particularly got their kins driven out of Naivasha and Nakuru under swords. Plead his cause and clear his name. Let him explain to the Nyanza people, from Nyanza platform that his problem is not them "the wanjaruos" but with Raila. And now to answer what you insinuate that Adongo's reaction suggest. Attacking Raila while associating him with Nyanza people connotes a lot. rifemaKaribu Jukwaa......too many newbies for me to remember!! If Uhuru was seriously trying to "woo" the people of Nyanza, he I am sure would have been standing on some street around Kondele. But he was not. He was addressing those with small minds who think that attacking Raila is attacking a whole community. Where do you place yourself? Kamale,I have said this a million times. Uhuru has a big baggage with Luo folks. Don't tell me that when Uhuru mobilized for the roasting of children in Naivasha he was attacking Raila? Raila was in none of the burned homes. He as in Nairobi. That is what the ordinary fellow can relate with. The saw the horrific pictures. They know some of the families and now they are hearing even from mainstream media (not jukwaa) that Uhuru Kenyatta had a big role to play in that. It is important for them to understand Uhuru's attitude towards them particularly when that same Uhuru now wants to be the president. The Luo folks traumatized by what happened not just in Naivasha and elsewhere would want to know that Uhuru has no such plans for them in future. Instead Uhuru went to Gatundu sometime back and started talking about kihi.is, thereby insulting all Luos something you folks are desperately trying to ran away from by claiming Uhuru has only been attacking Raila. In Meru and Murang'a it seems Uhuru message was for the Luos to behave and follow him or else..... In any event even the very war Uhuru has declared on Raila is based on the fact that Raila has refused to embrace their demands for impunity and for those who killed people during the PEV to go scot free. What does that tell the victims? That they are nothing. That they deserved what was coming to them. From the volume of threats coming from the Ocampo six they are warning people to leave them untouched or tutakiona moto. On Uhuru anti Luo tirades he should learn from his Ocampo mate William Ruto. There is a reason you never catch Ruto dead antogonizing Kikuyus. He has a baggage to address with them after the PEV. He does not want to open those wounds and be warning Kikuyus to do this and that or else. Uhuru's immaturity bubbled on the surface for all to see. Everybody took notice. Good for him. Next week he can take all that to Ocampo. adongo
|
|
|
Post by job on Mar 29, 2011 17:53:13 GMT 3
Word on the street is that Ruto is pissed at Uhuru. Apparently, he didn't take it lightly when he was not also crowned village elder in Muranga. Instead, he was reduced to a cheer leader. You see, it's the norm that prominent 'leaders' be crowned together… case in point: the spears of Bungoma. It's a sign of acceptance. I guess Ruto forgot to do a situational analysis before (figuratively speaking) going to parade inside the Crocodile's mouth? He will be lunch when Croc snaps its jaws. Uhuru ain't stupid to crown a second-fiddle like Ruto a Gikuyu elder. Such is left for fellow second-fiddles like Eugene Wamalwa - willing to 'crown' his monied master (God father) as Bukusu elder. It is in fact Ruto who should copy Eugene by inviting Uhuru at Kapkatet and crowning him Kalenjin elder! That's respect for protocol. Besides, who says the Gikuyu holloi polloi (many victimized during PEV) will take such a gesture (Ruto's crowning) lightly? Uhuru ain't that stupid!
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 29, 2011 17:55:44 GMT 3
Job That list is shocking!! kwani the people who want and can do these jobs are only wana Gema?
It seems that they have entrenched themselves and embedded themselves into the Govt to such a degree that they will still run the bureaucracy come the next Govt hata kama ni ODM.
And when ODM wants to redistribute these posts they will cry foul, eti wanaonewa!
Man either way we are screwed!!
|
|
|
Post by mank on Mar 29, 2011 17:57:31 GMT 3
Mank, From what I can gather and from your loose translation and the other bit in the common medium, ALL THE GEMAs have to toe the LINE! If not the BETRAYERS WILL BE HUNTED DOWN?? And then what? Holed up in a building and torched? Short of thin veiled threats and blackmail. Besides being the last gaps of Kenyan air for UK this amounts to incitement and dictatorial mentality. Makes you wonder what awaits the motherland in 2012 and whether ICC gotta get involved in two years time again? ALL BECAUSE OF ONE RAILA AMOLO !!!!![/b] [/quote] Kifirimbi, Its a stretch to claim that Uhuru is going hunt down (hunting down was not his phrase even) all GEMAs who do not tow the line. There is what he was saying, and what is being made of it - not one and the same, and many people are intentionally misreporting with the intention to fix the son of Jomo. Fine, he too wants to fix Raila. He was talking to his people about the need to be of one mind in decisions. He did not advocate for torching anybody - in fact nothing was said directly or even remotely to give a sense that anyone will be subjected to any harassment for not going along. He just called people into endorsing what he thinks is a good political strategy for the people, and then went on to advocate for a way people can enforce that strategy - which is by sending non-conformists into political cold. I see nothing alarming. Its politics, and Kenya is always in the political mood - and now more than ever, there is nothing we do with as much vigor.
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 29, 2011 18:04:50 GMT 3
Waweru in the video above even when Uhuru speaks in kiswahili he is inciting and shoring up tribalism. our only problem is Raila blah blah blah. In kikuyu its all about we Kikuyus (i know he thinks all GEMA are Kikuyu). to paraphrase some of the stuff; ...only our people can help us right? the crowd responds right. ...we'll see who is out of line. we'll follow them home and say this is the one who is betraying us.... Those are threats to Karua, Imanyara or any other GEMA who doesn't toe the line. Uhuru should be telling kikuyus that we are all Kenyans and we should vote for people based on what they have to offer rather than their tribe. I can't wait to see that bravado come next week where nobody cares about his macho rants. Truly, there is the usual tribal chauvinism in which the GEMA melt into the Kikuyu brand whenever the Kikuyu need numbers. In this case however, I am not sure Uhuru was complaining about GEMA in general. The multiple references of Muranga seem to emphasize anger with members of the Kikuyu community specifically. It is clear that in him is a burning desire to fight Raila as long and as much as he can. For him, the battle to save himself is no longer distinguishable from the battle to deal Raila a blow. Clearly, he believes Raila should have been the first, if not the only one, on Ocampo's list. Apparently he is going to rally troupes even if it is with his last breath, so Raila does not get everything while he loses everything. It is not clear whether it is saving himself or punching Raila that matters more to him at this point. I would not blame Uhuru for anything he is doing or saying here. We have to understand the context ... he's a cornered man. He can only fight with what he has, and as far as he can see, all he has is his people. You and I would also be fighting if caught in his position for any reason. And to be fair, he does not really do really anything outrageous by standards of politics. All he does is rally his people against his enemy. Here is my best transcription of the speech (those who see errors should suggest corrections - I am not an authority). ============================================================================================ Thanking you very much, overwhelmingly, we have one illness. That illness is the illness of selfishness. .. tunaelewana?. ati leader by leader, none listens to the other. So that even as we vied for the 2007 elections, we did so through all sorts of parties ... party of the goat, of the sheep, of the dog, of what, we were in them all.
Because of leaders doing what? Loving themselves (selfishness)! That is why those we we were fighting against that time, were motivated to claim we had stolen the election. Reason, because when they were counted, there were no people in Kibaki's party . Because people had entered parties of types and kind ... and that is why I say that sickness we must rectify. We as the Kikuyus we say we have had enough. ... So we never come to be embarrassed to be called a Kikuyu. Even those others sit down and think. And we too should sit down and think and know where we are. And we ever talk in one voice.
Here is William Ruto here. When they sit down as the people of the RV, they make a single decision, and when they enter parliament, they cast the vote one way, so they represent their people. But we, and let's talk the truth, all the leaders here, from Mzee Michuki, even Uhuru wa Kenyatta, and those others that are here that were elected in 2007, there is none that would have been elected if s/he was not on Kibaki's ribs. True or False? If I had stood up at my place Gatudu S and said my candidate was Raila Odinga, would I have gotten votes? If Michuki had gone Kangema and said his candidate was Kalonzo Musyoka, would he have gotten votes? Would he?
But today if you go to parliament, everyone took him/her-self there. You here ... Everyone talks as they wish. Ati even when our leader, the leader of our nation Kibaki says let's go this way, the first to oppose him, is from this place of ours. The first person to sell us to other people, is from among us us. Let's talk the truth.
Me, I want us to reach a consensus here. The leaders that are here, ati that one who will not corporate with others, that one who will not stick with the plan to represent our people, let him or her know from that day that his politics are over in the nation of Kenya. Will you say that? Will you say that?
Ati if Mwai wa Kibaki stands up today and tells us to go left we shall go left. The same way Ruto tells his people to go right and they go what? .... (not catching a significant piece here) they hear that. Let them see for themselves ... so they know that one who thinks s/he took self there, this is the mass of Muranga, and it is mass of our heritage of Gikuyu, and it has said, we shall go back to thinking with how many (single implied) thoughts? How many (single implied) thoughts? ... (missing it) we should not be ...(unsure)... and we shall not be beaten again, because of ...(missing it)... our leaders.
We shall see who will not tow the line. we shall meet him/her up to their home and say "this one, this one, this is the one who sells us. This is the one who does what? Don't you want us to work being one? ... Raila bashing from there followed by the coronation of an elder. ============================================================================================ mank Aksante for the translation I can see that jomo jnr is try to herd votes one way, - HIS WAY, irrespective of the wishes or needs of his base. But isnt he being disingenuous? Havent the wana Gema voted as a block since time immemorial? Which election have they fractured their votes? Jama is full of bullsh!t So is this what an old PNU winger here calls the herd mentality or sheep mentality the jaluos are accused of with respect to the Rt Hon Prime Minister?
|
|
|
Post by mank on Mar 29, 2011 18:08:03 GMT 3
Here is William Ruto here. When they sit down as the people of the RV, they make a single decision, and when they enter parliament, they cast the vote one way, so they represent their people. But we, and let's talk the truth, all the leaders here, from Mzee Michuki, even Uhuru wa Kenyatta, and those others that are here that were elected in 2007, there is none that would have been elected if s/he was not on Kibaki's ribs. True or False? If I had stood up at my place Gatudu S and said my candidate was Raila Odinga, would I have gotten votes? If Michuki had gone Kangema and said his candidate was Kalonzo Musyoka, would he have gotten votes? Would he?
But today if you go to parliament, everyone took him/her-self there. You here ... Everyone talks as they wish. Ati even when our leader, the leader of our nation Kibaki says let's go this way, the first to oppose him, is from this place of ours. The first person to sell us to other people, is from among us us. Let's talk the truth.
Me, I want us to reach a consensus here. The leaders that are here, ati that one who will not corporate with others, that one who will not stick with the plan to represent our people, let him or her know from that day that his politics are over in the nation of Kenya. Will you say that? Will you say that?
Ati if Mwai wa Kibaki stands up today and tells us to go left we shall go left. The same way Ruto tells his people to go right and they go what? .... (not catching a significant piece here) they hear that. Let them see for themselves ... so they know that one who thinks s/he took self there, this is the mass of Muranga, and it is mass of our heritage of Gikuyu, and it has said, we shall go back to thinking with how many (single implied) thoughts? How many (single implied) thoughts? ... (missing it) we should not be ...(unsure)... and we shall not be beaten again, because of ...(missing it)... our leaders.
We shall see who will not tow the line. we shall meet him/her up to their home and say "this one, this one, this is the one who sells us. This is the one who does what? Don't you want us to work being one?[/i] ... Raila bashing from there followed by the coronation of an elder. ============================================================================================[/quote] With these kind of politics/politicians there is no need to have a democracy![/quote] Nok, I see your point. But these politics are quite predictable and unavoidable. All our politicians practice them. I remember when we had the post of PM in the draft constitution my argument against the draft was in part because this very kind of politics would fracture Kenya through the type of PMship that was packaged. What I am saying is that this is something we know we have - it does not start now, neither is limited to Uhuru. Uhuru is on the spotlight now, but what we see is much of what we would see in most politicians if we put them equally on spotlight.
|
|
|
Post by nowayhaha on Mar 29, 2011 18:08:09 GMT 3
Truly, there is the usual tribal chauvinism in which the GEMA melt into the Kikuyu brand whenever the Kikuyu need numbers. In this case however, I am not sure Uhuru was complaining about GEMA in general. The multiple references of Muranga seem to emphasize anger with members of the Kikuyu community specifically. It is clear that in him is a burning desire to fight Raila as long and as much as he can. For him, the battle to save himself is no longer distinguishable from the battle to deal Raila a blow. Clearly, he believes Raila should have been the first, if not the only one, on Ocampo's list. Apparently he is going to rally troupes even if it is with his last breath, so Raila does not get everything while he loses everything. It is not clear whether it is saving himself or punching Raila that matters more to him at this point. I would not blame Uhuru for anything he is doing or saying here. We have to understand the context ... he's a cornered man. He can only fight with what he has, and as far as he can see, all he has is his people. You and I would also be fighting if caught in his position for any reason. And to be fair, he does not really do really anything outrageous by standards of politics. All he does is rally his people against his enemy. Here is my best transcription of the speech (those who see errors should suggest corrections - I am not an authority). ============================================================================================ Thanking you very much, overwhelmingly, we have one illness. That illness is the illness of selfishness. .. tunaelewana?. ati leader by leader, none listens to the other. So that even as we vied for the 2007 elections, we did so through all sorts of parties ... party of the goat, of the sheep, of the dog, of what, we were in them all.
Because of leaders doing what? Loving themselves (selfishness)! That is why those we we were fighting against that time, were motivated to claim we had stolen the election. Reason, because when they were counted, there were no people in Kibaki's party . Because people had entered parties of types and kind ... and that is why I say that sickness we must rectify. We as the Kikuyus we say we have had enough. ... So we never come to be embarrassed to be called a Kikuyu. Even those others sit down and think. And we too should sit down and think and know where we are. And we ever talk in one voice.
Here is William Ruto here. When they sit down as the people of the RV, they make a single decision, and when they enter parliament, they cast the vote one way, so they represent their people. But we, and let's talk the truth, all the leaders here, from Mzee Michuki, even Uhuru wa Kenyatta, and those others that are here that were elected in 2007, there is none that would have been elected if s/he was not on Kibaki's ribs. True or False? If I had stood up at my place Gatudu S and said my candidate was Raila Odinga, would I have gotten votes? If Michuki had gone Kangema and said his candidate was Kalonzo Musyoka, would he have gotten votes? Would he?
But today if you go to parliament, everyone took him/her-self there. You here ... Everyone talks as they wish. Ati even when our leader, the leader of our nation Kibaki says let's go this way, the first to oppose him, is from this place of ours. The first person to sell us to other people, is from among us us. Let's talk the truth.
Me, I want us to reach a consensus here. The leaders that are here, ati that one who will not corporate with others, that one who will not stick with the plan to represent our people, let him or her know from that day that his politics are over in the nation of Kenya. Will you say that? Will you say that?
Ati if Mwai wa Kibaki stands up today and tells us to go left we shall go left. The same way Ruto tells his people to go right and they go what? .... (not catching a significant piece here) they hear that. Let them see for themselves ... so they know that one who thinks s/he took self there, this is the mass of Muranga, and it is mass of our heritage of Gikuyu, and it has said, we shall go back to thinking with how many (single implied) thoughts? How many (single implied) thoughts? ... (missing it) we should not be ...(unsure)... and we shall not be beaten again, because of ...(missing it)... our leaders.
We shall see who will not tow the line. we shall meet him/her up to their home and say "this one, this one, this is the one who sells us. This is the one who does what? Don't you want us to work being one? ... Raila bashing from there followed by the coronation of an elder. ============================================================================================ mank Aksante for the translation I can see that jomo jnr is try to herd votes one way, - HIS WAY, irrespective of the wishes or needs of his base. But isnt he being disingenuous? Havent the wana Gema voted as a block since time immemorial? Which election have they fractured their votes? Jama is full of bullsh!t So is this what an old PNU winger here calls the herd mentality or sheep mentality the jaluos are accused of with respect to the Rt Hon Prime Minister? Get your facts right in 1992 elections the Gema votes were divided btwn Matiba and Kibaki
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Mar 29, 2011 18:14:37 GMT 3
Adongo
First and foremost, I fail to realise why anyone considers the work kĩhĩĩ insulting whilst indeed it is descriptive rather than insolent. There are people who get sexist in their insults and will tell a man to stop behaving like a woman (which then is insulting) whilst the word itself being descriptive of a gender is not insulting! Kĩhĩĩ is only descriptive of one who is not circumcised and where I come from, it only becomes an insult if you called a circumcised person a kĩhĩĩ. So YES Raila is a kĩhĩĩ but it only is insulting if he is called this on account of his behaviour rather than his status.
As for Uhuru having a go at Raila, it is driven by nothing more but political competition rather than failing to get any support.
The death of a few in Naivasha does not come close to the national total and in all instances, it is regrettable as is the case of those who lost their property from thieves and looters. The revisionism that Uhuru funded the Naivasha killings as if Naivasha was the centre of the PEV is what tells why some people come from!
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Mar 29, 2011 18:19:03 GMT 3
It is easy to tell when people are in trouble or simply sense it. Job has recycled a list that did the rounds in Jukwaa in 2006 and did not even bother to change any name so he still has Allan Mburu as Ambassador to Japan whilst indeed it is a long life friend of mine, Ben Ouma who is the ambassador there!! I have insisted before that it is small minds that analyse tribes. Which brings me to sister Nereah who captures it well. None of these kikuyus benefit their lot in as much as I guess that Elkana shows little care for Job in Washington! Knowing Karangi or Uhuru adds no value in my life as long as I can fend myself and do not rely on handouts. Kamale,Nope! - as expected, you got it wrong - as usual!
Small minds discuss personalities like Job, Nereah etc! average minds discuss events in question, while intelligent minds discuss /analyse/ dissect/ issues (including tribalism).
You seriously mean all you could see/come up with from that long post is Job, Nereah etc, names which were'nt even in the substantive post? Try and show a bit of literacy Job. Do you just see your name and that of Nereah and start getting a fit? Read what I wrote bwana!
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 29, 2011 18:19:44 GMT 3
Get your facts right in 1992 elections the Gema votes were divided btwn Matiba and Kibaki And whose fault is that? ;D ;D ;D You are talking as if the votes went to Jaramogi!
|
|
|
Post by nowayhaha on Mar 29, 2011 18:29:32 GMT 3
Get your facts right in 1992 elections the Gema votes were divided btwn Matiba and Kibaki And whose fault is that? ;D ;D ;D You are talking as if the votes went to Jaramogi! This just debunks you allegation that Gema have always voted the "herd/Sheep mentality" since time memorial
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Mar 29, 2011 19:02:54 GMT 3
AdongoFirst and foremost, I fail to realise why anyone considers the work kĩhĩĩ insulting whilst indeed it is descriptive rather than insolent. There are people who get sexist in their insults and will tell a man to stop behaving like a woman (which then is insulting) whilst the word itself being descriptive of a gender is not insulting! Kĩhĩĩ is only descriptive of one who is not circumcised and where I come from, it only becomes an insult if you called a circumcised person a kĩhĩĩ. So YES Raila is a kĩhĩĩ but it only is insulting if he is called this on account of his behaviour rather than his status. As for Uhuru having a go at Raila, it is driven by nothing more but political competition rather than failing to get any support. The death of a few in Naivasha does not come close to the national total and in all instances, it is regrettable as is the case of those who lost their property from thieves and looters. The revisionism that Uhuru funded the Naivasha killings as if Naivasha was the centre of the PEV is what tells why some people come from! Kamale,You miss my point by a mile. I am not that concerned about the kih.ii business. It is an ethnic slur that has a long history in Kenyan politics. In the 2007 elections it was Nyachae's battle cry and we all know where that took him. So we understand what Uhuru meant. Kenyans are not fools. A leader has to be awfully bankrupt politically to find ethnic slurs as their main message to the country. It is despicable. In terms of the killings in Naivasha once again you miss the point. It is not the numbers. More people were killed in Kisumu, in Eldoret, in Nandi county, Nakuru, and Nairobi. My empasis on Naivasha is that it is a blemish between Uhuru and Luo folks as evidence now emerges. It is a wound Uhuru will have to address at some point with his victims and their communities. I think using ethnic slurs against the same communities is not part of the solution. But then again, what do I know. Ruto has been accused of involvement in the Kiambaa church burnings. So far no direct evidence has been provided the way Uhuru has been linked to the Naivasha tragedy. But Ruto would be dumb to say or do anything to antoginize the victims of the Kiambaa tragedy. It is not in his best interests politically even if he doesn't give a shit about the victims. The big picture really that we are three years late in addressing these problems. If our politicians were smart they would have started a long time ago to heal the wounds opened by these problems. There would be serious and genuine outreach to communities to bury the past. Instead what we see are the suspects even boasting of what they did. That is my problem with Uhuru's attitude of "I was heping my people" But you know what, I am done with Uhuru now, he has laid his bed, he will have to enjoy it. I will wait and see what happens next week. We will be right here.
|
|
|
Post by mangai on Mar 29, 2011 19:21:21 GMT 3
And whose fault is that? ;D ;D ;D You are talking as if the votes went to Jaramogi! This just debunks you allegation that Gema have always voted the "herd/Sheep mentality" since time memorial To the contrary, the Kikuyu have always voted in only one of their own. 1963, Jomo Kenyatta In 1992 it was Matiba or Kibaki. Muite could not muster any sizeable votes for Jaramogi despite being his running mate. 1997, it was Kibaki. A number of MPs got elected on Ngilu's SDP party but all presidential votes ended up in one basket, that of Mwai Kibaki. 2002, Kibaki or Uhuru. 2007, Kibaki 2012, Uhuru (most likely). The other community that was notorious for supporting 'one of their own', the Luo, have at least demonstrated they can support another. At independence, they supported Kenyatta while in 2002 they did for Kibaki (when Raila was then a Njamba)
|
|
|
Post by danielwaweru on Mar 29, 2011 21:03:02 GMT 3
This just debunks you allegation that Gema have always voted the "herd/Sheep mentality" since time memorial To the contrary, the Kikuyu have always voted in only one of their own. 1963, Jomo Kenyatta In 1992 it was Matiba or Kibaki. Muite could not muster any sizeable votes for Jaramogi despite being his running mate. 1997, it was Kibaki. A number of MPs got elected on Ngilu's SDP party but all presidential votes ended up in one basket, that of Mwai Kibaki. 2002, Kibaki or Uhuru. 2007, Kibaki 2012, Uhuru (most likely). The other community that was notorious for supporting 'one of their own', the Luo, have at least demonstrated they can support another. At independence, they supported Kenyatta while in 2002 they did for Kibaki (when Raila was then a Njamba) I would urge you to familiarise yourself with the facts. Jaramogi supported the release of Kenyatta because he wanted to split Mboya's vote. Mboya was the most popular politician at the time, and his base included large numbers of Gikuyu voters, so Odinga pere thought all he had to do was to insist on the release of Kenyatta, and wait for things to fall into his lap. He didn't expect Mboya and Kenyatta to form the partnership they did. The story is well told in Keith Kyle's The Politics of the Independence of Kenya. As for the rest of your nonsense about Gikuyu not voting for non-Gikuyu, it is just that, nonsense. Mboya won his Nairobi constituencies with vast majorities, even when he was running against Gikuyu --- and even when he was running against Munyua Waiyaki, a Gikuyu aristocrat if ever there was one. That's because his Gikuyu constituents never forgot that he had stood up for them during the emergency, whereas Jaramogi's Luo Union had denounced Mau Mau, and arranged to take over the jobs and houses vacated by those who were deported from Nairobi. (You can read a little about the Luo Union's shameful behaviour in Matthew Carotenuto's Riwruok E Teko.) Incidentally, Moi became president because Kibaki fixed the KANU votes in much of Gikuyuland. But that's a story for another day.
|
|
|
Post by mzee on Mar 29, 2011 21:15:50 GMT 3
To the contrary, the Kikuyu have always voted in only one of their own. 1963, Jomo Kenyatta In 1992 it was Matiba or Kibaki. Muite could not muster any sizeable votes for Jaramogi despite being his running mate. 1997, it was Kibaki. A number of MPs got elected on Ngilu's SDP party but all presidential votes ended up in one basket, that of Mwai Kibaki. 2002, Kibaki or Uhuru. 2007, Kibaki 2012, Uhuru (most likely). The other community that was notorious for supporting 'one of their own', the Luo, have at least demonstrated they can support another. At independence, they supported Kenyatta while in 2002 they did for Kibaki (when Raila was then a Njamba) I would urge you to familiarise yourself with the facts. Jaramogi supported the release of Kenyatta because he wanted to split Mboya's vote. Mboya was the most popular politician at the time, and his base included large numbers of Gikuyu voters, so Odinga pere thought all he had to do was to insist on the release of Kenyatta, and wait for things to fall into his lap. He didn't expect Mboya and Kenyatta to form the partnership they did. The story is well told in Keith Kyle's The Politics of the Independence of Kenya. As for the rest of your nonsense about Gikuyu not voting for non-Gikuyu, it is just that, nonsense. Mboya won his Nairobi constituencies with vast majorities, even when he was running against Gikuyu --- and even when he was running against Munyua Waiyaki, a Gikuyu aristocrat if ever there was one. That's because his Gikuyu constituents never forgot that he had stood up for them during the emergency, whereas Jaramogi's Luo Union had denounced Mau Mau, and arranged to take over the jobs and houses vacated by those who were deported from Nairobi. (You can read a little about the Luo Union's shameful behaviour in Matthew Carotenuto's Riwruok E Teko.) Incidentally, Moi became president because Kibaki fixed the KANU votes in much of Gikuyuland. But that's a story for another day. Waweru,SO why must we go all the way back to Mboyas time to find when a Kikuyu voted for persons of another tribe?? Why? And by the way, people from all walks of life voted for T Mboya then. So you cannot credit the kikuyu with his election. Sorry to disappoint you. And why is it that you think that you are an expert of luo history and politics even if what you are saying is upside down and out of touch with reality.
|
|
|
Post by danielwaweru on Mar 29, 2011 21:30:40 GMT 3
Kathure, this is just false. In neither video is there anything that looks even remotely like incitement to hatred against Luo. In the Meru video, there is no mention whatsoever of Luo. In the Muranga video, Uhuru very explicitly says that he would be willing to ally with people in Nyanza: his one and only problem is with Raila. Waweru in the video above even when Uhuru speaks in kiswahili he is inciting and shoring up tribalism. our only problem is Raila blah blah blah. In kikuyu its all about we Kikuyus (i know he thinks all GEMA are Kikuyu). to paraphrase some of the stuff; ...only our people can help us right? the crowd responds right. ...we'll see who is out of line. we'll follow them home and say this is the one who is betraying us.... Those are threats to Karua, Imanyara or any other GEMA who doesn't toe the line. Uhuru should be telling kikuyus that we are all Kenyans and we should vote for people based on what they have to offer rather than their tribe. I can't wait to see that bravado come next week where nobody cares about his macho rants. (1) The remarks are pretty explicitly at Gikuyu, so it's not true that he assumes that all GEMA are Gikuyu. (2) He says the exact opposite of what you claim. He doesn't say that only Gikuyu can help Gikuyu. In fact, he explicitly says that Gikuyu have a penchant for betraying each other if that's not too strong a word. (3) Yes, there is a threat at the end, and it's pretty ugly. But the threat is directed at those Gikuyu who don't toe the line. So I'm not seeing how it constitutes hate speech or incitement against Luo. Not every bad thing qualifies as tribalism. (4) If Uhuru had said what you wanted him to say --- that we should vote for any Kenyan --- during this conversation, then he would have been lying. At the time, the focus was on Raila, so if he had said that we should vote for any Kenyan, then, going by the maxim of relevance, he would have implied that it is OK to vote for Raila. That's just false. As Paul Collier ( Wars, Guns and Votes, p. 72) says: TheKenyan elections of December 2007 provided the opportunity for a new set of politicians to fan the flames of a fire that had been lit by their predecessors. By far the main culprit was the opposition leader, Raila Odinga. Recall that the incumbent has the advantage in respect of bribery and miscounting, so the opposition is indeed more likely to resort to the cheaper strategy of relying on ethnic identity. Odinga ran on a campaign that was tantamount to promising ethnic cleansing. It's not, actually, OK to vote for ethnic cleansers (which is why I won't be voting for either Raila or Uhuru). But it's perfectly OK to say that you have a problem with a guy, if the guy campaigned on a platform of ethnic cleansing of your co-ethnics.
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 29, 2011 21:34:07 GMT 3
Waweru,SO why must we go all the way back to Mboyas time to find when a Kikuyu voted for persons of another tribe?? Why? And by the way, people from all walks of life voted for T Mboya then. So you cannot credit the kikuyu with his election. Sorry to disappoint you. And why is it that you think that you are an expert of luo history and politics even if what you are saying is upside down and out of touch with reality. This guys seems to specialize in what is called "opposition research". He is on the look out of factoids and nuggets that go to portray the Luo and Rt Hon Prime Minsiter in a negative light. Thats fine. But yesterday I asked him why he has not yet asked the PNU hawks to comment on an article that claims that if ruto goes to the Hague, pre-planned violence will be unleashed in RV. Instead he was admonishing ODM leaders for being quiet. uh? Kumbe he had conveniently forgetten, that its the PNU prezzo, his UN Ambassador and various PNU blowhards who had been making the same, same claim!! It means the PNU folks, who happen to be in charge of the Security apparatus, know of some pre-planned violence. So why havent they taken some pre-emptive measures then!!
|
|
|
Post by danielwaweru on Mar 29, 2011 21:42:05 GMT 3
Kathure, this is just false. In neither video is there anything that looks even remotely like incitement to hatred against Luo. In the Meru video, there is no mention whatsoever of Luo. In the Muranga video, Uhuru very explicitly says that he would be willing to ally with people in Nyanza: his one and only problem is with Raila. Waweru,I have been reading your good writings over the last five years but I have to admit this is the most disappointing of them all. This confirms you certainly aint any better than the Michukis, Karumes and the Kenyattas of this world. Is Raila not Kenyan enough to run for the highest office in the land? Are Luos now being reduced to being political allies (aka voting machines) whose only job is to vote for others? That, my friend, will simply not wash. Not here in Jukwaa or anywhere else in this country. If indeed Uhuru has a problem with Raila, why personalise it at a public rally? Dont these two meet at cabinet meetings where they can sort themselves out away from the public glare? Is Uhuru not a deputy to Raila as prime minister, meaning they serve the same constitutional office and thus have ready made channels of communication? Why reduce the loft of your office (not to mention what you aspire to be) to these daily anti-Raila roadshows, how or what does this add value to Kenya as a nation? This is utter nonsense coming from you Waweru. Not any different from the garbage Uhuru and Ruto spew each day against Raila. I'm not sure what connection your contribution has to what I said. Kathure and PM, and others, accused Uhuru of tribalism and hate speech, specifically against Luo. Unfortunately, the accusations have turned out to be false, and in a pretty blatant way: all one has to do is to look and listen carefully at the video. Raila's eligibility for running for office is not in question. I certainly will not be voting for him, and I will urge everyone I know not to vote for him either. He bears serious responsibility for the mass murder which occurred after the election, and I fail to see any reason to vote for ethnic cleansers, especially not when the intended victims speak my language. So, to the extent that Uhuru says that he has a problem with Raila, then he and I can agree. Obviously, Uhuru himself bears responsibility for similar crimes, so I won't be voting for him.
|
|
|
Post by mzee on Mar 29, 2011 21:47:32 GMT 3
PM, Whoever plans the next violence will end up in a worse place than Ruto and Uhuru. At least we have let the two thugs run around shouting epithets at all and sundry. Next time kenyans might just do a mob justice on the PEV inciters.
Jomo junior thought that killing people and getting away with it would be a walk in the park. It now looks like swimming in a crocodile infested river. The croc called Ocampo is going to cut these thugs into shreds.
|
|
|
Post by tnk on Mar 29, 2011 21:55:40 GMT 3
ethnic discrimination
=== 3. (1) For purposes of this Act, a person discriminates against another person if-
(a) on ethnic grounds he treats that other person less favorably than he treats or would treat other persons; or
(b) he applies to that other person a requirement or condition which he applies or would apply equally to persons not of the same ethnic group as that other person but-
(i) which is such that the proportion of persons of the same ethnic group as that other person who can comply with it is considerably smaller than the proportion of persons not of that ethnic group who can comply with it; and
(ii) which he cannot show to be justifiable irrespective of the colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins of the person to whom it applied; and
(iii) which is to the detriment of that other person because he cannot comply with it.
(2) A person also discriminates against another person if, in any circumstances relevant for the purposes of any provision referred to in subsection (1) (b), he applies to that other person a provision, criterion or practice which he applies or would apply equally to persons not of the same race or ethnic or national origins as that other, but-
(a) which put or would put persons of the same race or ethnic or national origins as that other person at a particular disadvantage when compared with other persons,
(b) which puts that other person at that disadvantage; and
(c) which he cannot show to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(3) For the purposes of this Act, segregating a person from other persons on ethnic grounds is treating him less favourably than they are treated.
(4) Subsection (1) does not apply to treatment of a person by reason of any allegation made by him if it is proven in a court of law that the allegation was false and not made in good faith. ==
== 6. (1) A person subjects another to harassment on the basis of ethnicity for the purposes of any provision referred to in section 4 (d) where, on ethnic grounds, he engages in unwanted conduct which has the purpose or effect of-
(a) violating that other person’s dignity, or
(b) creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for him.
(2) Conduct shall be regarded as having the effect specified in subsection (1) (a) or (b) only if, having regard to all the circumstances, including in particular the perception of that other person, it should reasonably be considered as having that effect. ==
hate speech == 13. (1) A person who-
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material;
(b) publishes or distributes written material;
(c) presents or directs the performance the public performance of a play;
(d) distributes, shows or plays, a recording of visual images; or
(e) provides, produces or directs a programme;
which is threatening, abusive or insulting or involves the use of threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour commits an offence if such person intends thereby to stir up ethnic hatred, or having regard to all the circumstances, ethnic hatred is likely to be stirred up.
(2) Any person who commits an offence under this section shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one million shillings or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or to both.
(3) In this section, “ethnic hatred” means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. ==
[note: will start a new thread on this later]
anyone out there with links to materials from the moribund Kibunja's National Cohesion Commission ?
want to attack this mugumo tree, i already have a razor ready.
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Mar 29, 2011 22:02:29 GMT 3
Waweru,I have been reading your good writings over the last five years but I have to admit this is the most disappointing of them all. This confirms you certainly aint any better than the Michukis, Karumes and the Kenyattas of this world. Is Raila not Kenyan enough to run for the highest office in the land? Are Luos now being reduced to being political allies (aka voting machines) whose only job is to vote for others? That, my friend, will simply not wash. Not here in Jukwaa or anywhere else in this country. If indeed Uhuru has a problem with Raila, why personalise it at a public rally? Dont these two meet at cabinet meetings where they can sort themselves out away from the public glare? Is Uhuru not a deputy to Raila as prime minister, meaning they serve the same constitutional office and thus have ready made channels of communication? Why reduce the loft of your office (not to mention what you aspire to be) to these daily anti-Raila roadshows, how or what does this add value to Kenya as a nation? This is utter nonsense coming from you Waweru. Not any different from the garbage Uhuru and Ruto spew each day against Raila. I'm not sure what connection your contribution has to what I said. Kathure and PM, and others, accused Uhuru of tribalism and hate speech, specifically against Luo. Unfortunately, the accusations have turned out to be false, and in a pretty blatant way: all one has to do is to look and listen carefully at the video. Raila's eligibility for running for office is not in question. I certainly will not be voting for him, and I will urge everyone I know not to vote for him either. He bears serious responsibility for the mass murder which occurred after the election, and I fail to see any reason to vote for ethnic cleansers, especially not when the intended victims speak my language. So, to the extent that Uhuru says that he has a problem with Raila, then he and I can agree. Obviously, Uhuru himself bears responsibility for similar crimes, so I won't be voting for him. danielwaweru,Yesterday you claimed in response to Kathure's post that Uhuru's speech in kikuyu language in Meru and in Murang'a had no over tones of tribalism or ethnic hatred. Today after people who actually speak Kikuyu translated the speech it looked pretty loaded with overtures and threats against everybody who does not support Uhuru. In fact Uhuru even threatened to have any people in his own community who don't fuata his Nyayo followed to their homes. Very ominous stuff. Now today you say Raila attacked victims who speak your language. While we always encourage people to use pen names here in jukwaa, I find it hard to comprehend your motive for claiming to be a Kikuyu who understood Uhuru's kikuyu speech and who is pissed because Raila killed fellow Kikuyus. You know ndugu waweru that you are a well known jukwaa member who has gone by the name Alex since 2005 and who is a German national of Caucasian extraction and who now publishes a respetable on line magazine called Kenyaimagine under the same waweru name of course. Why on earth would you want to sell yourself here as Kikuyu? What is the motivation? Jukwaa welcomes and even cherishes your contribution by any name you choose and you are not the only foreigner and friend of Kenya in Jukwaa but I find it rather mischievous that you have metamorphosed now into a full fledged Kenyan of Gikuyu origin. I will let you explain that to Jukwaa folks yourself, if you so wish. Otherwise we just move on and we welcome your contributions like everybody else. I was going to let this pass yesterday but when you came back and repeated the same thing by talking about "people who speak my language", I thought a dose of reality is in order. I worry that when people wrap themselves falsely as this or that tribe, the propensity to use that as a tool for tribal innuendos multiplies by 100. Otherwise how is Kenyaimagine doing? I wish you the best of luck there and you are always welcome to jukwaa with your many talents. Let's just keep it real. still, adongo
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 29, 2011 22:04:54 GMT 3
Raila's eligibility for running for office is not in question. I certainly will not be voting for him, and I will urge everyone I know not to vote for him either. He bears serious responsibility for the mass murder which occurred after the election, . Again I dont see you apportioning blame to the person who rigged the ECK, to the person who sent the APs to Western and Nyanza, to the person who was in charge of the security apparatus DURING THE PEV. How come this person get no share of the blame according to you? Oh, so now you want to say you dont know whom I am referencing? I see. Well he is the lame duck currently sitting in SH, for your information. The keguoya who has never bothered to explain what happened that fateful night. Oh I see, now, are you saying he does not matter because he cant run again for P.O.R.K so he is irrelevant? Really? I will never get tired of debunking the myth of "moral equivalence" you guys try to draw between the theif (lame duck P.O.RK) and victim (Rt Hon Prime Minister). Its all very convenient for you, because it serves your ultimate purpose - keep The Rt Hon Prime Minister away from the Presidency. There is nothing the Rt Hon Prime Minister did, that is equivalent to the willful sabotage and abdication of duty manifest in the lame duck P.O.R.K. If I ask you to tell me what did the Rt Hon Prime Minister do pre and post election to make him culpable for the PEV you will start recycling dubious stuff, that cant even stand alone in the mafiya run courts in Nairobi. Even the lackeys charging Kajwang and I dont know who else are sane enough (I did not say smart, but sane), to stop there, and not venture towards charging the Rt Hon Prime Minister with anything.
|
|
|
Post by reporter911 on Mar 30, 2011 0:57:31 GMT 3
Job That list is shocking!! kwani the people who want and can do these jobs are only wana Gema? It seems that they have entrenched themselves and embedded themselves into the Govt to such a degree that they will still run the bureaucracy come the next Govt hata kama ni ODM. And when ODM wants to redistribute these posts they will cry foul, eti wanaonewa! Man either way we are screwed!! politicalmaniac hey they Kibaki/Gema removed all the Kalenjins who where place in most all those positions when Moi was in power ... most of all those positions if you check were headed by Kalejin's during Moi's Era ... so why should they cry foul when come 2012 they are kicked out of those jobs? Si they did it to all the Kalenjin's that Moi had put in all those positions during the Moi Era!!
2012 must and will be a clean clear broom sweep.. Jobs must represent all Kenyans not one tribe!! and trust me it will be done!!! no more foot ball from president to president.. "ati you employed your tribe and now it is my turn to employ my tribe !!bure kabisa hawa!!
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Mar 30, 2011 2:05:48 GMT 3
politicalmaniac hey they Kibaki/Gema removed all the Kalenjins who where place in most all those positions when Moi was in power ... most of all those positions if you check were headed by Kalejin's during Moi's Era ... so why should they cry foul when come 2012 they are kicked out of those jobs? Si they did it to all the Kalenjin's that Moi had put in all those positions during the Moi Era!!
2012 must and will be a clean clear broom sweep.. Jobs must represent all Kenyans not one tribe!! and trust me it will be done!!! no more foot ball from president to president.. "ati you employed your tribe and now it is my turn to employ my tribe !!bure kabisa hawa!!The brazeness of just how they can occupy all the top posts, is amazing. The in your face tribalism, Na Mta Do? is shocking. I know I shouldnt be shocked, with anything from these mafiyas but still, man, its shocking!
|
|
|
Post by Titchaz on Mar 30, 2011 4:55:46 GMT 3
Adongo saidYou know ndugu waweru that you are a well known jukwaa member who has gone by the name Alex since 2005 and who is a German national of Caucasian extraction and who now publishes a respetable on line magazine called Kenyaimagine under the same waweru name of course. Wow!!!!,,,, ;D ;D ;D Kweli Jukwaa ina wenyewe!!!
|
|