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Post by merkeju on Sept 14, 2013 20:49:23 GMT 3
Mank, you have made a two part response to two of my posts. As far as the first one goes, keep in mind Tuesday & Wednesday's preceedings were just opening statements allowing all parties to give a synopsis of the case they want to present. There was no right of reply expected or even granted except to the OTP because a defense team "mis-represented" the number of witnesses they intend to call forward. When Bensouda's side-kick tried to expand the right of reply to matters covered by Karim Khan, he was quickly corralled into discussing only matters around the number of victims by Justice Osuji. The back & forths will come later...once the OTP presents their witnesses in the actual court session... Good point! I have to confess that I listen to OTP with lots of impatience ... its impatience developed since the debate about OTP4 and the subsequent coming to the open that Muthaura was being framed (and in my view OTP was willing to go any route to keep him there, even knowing that he was being framed). Since then I have continued to wonder whether OTP turned any alleged "evidence" down as "clear garbage," or if anyone who volunteered a story against the accused got on the Hague ticket! My impatience hit new heights when I heard Bens' side-kick say "... this will show the attacks were not random events, rather, that they were organized events ..." That line was valuable at the pre-trial sessions, but by now I would expect it to be replaced everywhere by " it will show that the accused organized these events." I worry that OTP is hoodwinking Kenya that it has a case, and is just going to be making these teasy statements till the judge calls cases to a halt. This is not the movie I have been waiting for. ... That whisper ("PEACEFULL"! <mass action>) by WSR is a shot across Rayila's bows. If I were Rayila I would be a very worried man. WSR it seems is more than prepared to cast his former boss in a bad light at the ICC. I had chosen to stay on that one, but now that we are in it ... that's my read too. Further, I sense that Ruto wishes he was free to say some things about the chaotic times, but he's forced to stay zip rather than destroy himself in the process of destroying someone else. ... should it reach a point where Ruto starts to look guilty, hey, my bet is we start seeing new characters in the script, and just like that, we got some movie here! If you are familiar with computer programing languages you will therefore understand that I see Ruto as a macro character in the script ... at the right moment it will open up and write in new characters.... alas, you had already preempted me on that one, here: .... Ruto will sell out Rayila in a heartbeat! Expect Ruto's defense to pull out a lot of evidence that will incriminate Rayila while at the same time diminish Ruto's responsibility in all matters PEV. Rayila may find his name & person tarnished to the point he may even want to voluntarily present himself to the ICC to clear it lest he find his reputation is so tattered that 2017 will be nothing more than a pipe dream.... In the Uhuru case, on the other hand, the worst he may say is "I was not running for the presidency in 2007") which is a veiled hint that Kibs is their man. But UK will not directly cast aspersion on his former boss & godfather (in both the Catholic sense & the mafiosi one). The community which is infamous for oathing cannot gvie away one of its own due to strict omerta modus operandi. Having broken away from ODM & being from different communities now on opposite sides of the political divide, WSR isn't bound by any such omerta. For the Uhuru scene of this movie, I have set aside enough pop corn to take me through the Nguyai-driven part, however long it takes. Talk about Rayila having a reason to be afraid ... I hope His Excellency is relaxed and in good health ... there are sweating days ahead, if you recall the suspense left by Nguyai. After reading the conversation between mank and b6k am left to wonder what was it that did show Ruto was not guilty of the crimes, was it when he whispered the word PEACEFUL when Raila was calling for mass action, this proves nothing, because its important to follow the chronicles of events, and it should be noted Raila was not reading a script message, when he omitted the word peaceful did he meant it should be violent, we can go to many videos that shows Raila talking of peaceful mass action without Ruto being there and by now it should be noted that Ruto's words does not match his action, he will call for peace while at the same time a mob of thousand armed kalenjins are descending in burnt forest after burning kikuyus in Kiamba church. Its obvious that Ruto's lawyer is full of theatrical than the law, he was ready to through lies about the prosecutor, distorting the prosecutor's case just because that is what Ruto and Uhuru followers will like to hear, but when the prosecutor wants to challenge the lies, the defense lawyer gets scared because he knows he will be called out for his lies, that is why he could not let the prosecutor talk, if what he said was true why object. About bring up Raila's name, i will wait for that day. Its different from Uhuru, Muthaura and Kibaki connections, Ruto was after power for himself and not for Raila, he was consolidating his power, Uhuru was in quotes responding to the killings of Kikuyus in Rift Valley and at the same time protecting the presidency that was held by a Kikuyu, Raila lost the election and all he called say was mass action, which the police and Mungiki crashed with deadly force. In Kiswahili there is a saying that says debe tu haliachi kelele this reminds me of Ruto's lawyer, he will through words to impress the Kenyan mass but does not hold any weight because they are not evidence, all his videos were not evidence and the prosecutor said he should have played some of the videos in its entirely.
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Post by mank on Sept 15, 2013 0:41:30 GMT 3
you mean there's a part in that thread that says Ruto is not guilty of calling for mass action? i must have missed it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2013 3:02:23 GMT 3
DARKNESS AT NOON IN THE RIFT VALLEY Saturday, September 14, 2013 - 02:30 -- BY JOE ADAMA Among the real surprises that Deputy President William Ruto was confronted with when his trial at the International Criminal Court in The Hague started on Tuesday morning was his repeated description by the prosecution as “the anointed leader of the Kalenjin”. Also charged alongside the Deputy President was radio broadcaster Joshua arap Sang, formerly of KASS FM, a Kalenjin language radio station. Sang’s lawyer Katwa Kigen argued that “the Kalenjin way of life” was on trial at The Hague, not just two individuals. Kigen alleged a sustained attempt to criminalise Kalenjin circumcision, marriage, initiation and other blameless cultural rituals by depicting them as preparations for massive inter-ethnic violence, a remark that no doubt resonated back home in the Rift Valley grassroots. The prosecution, led by ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda of the Gambia, then proceeded to roll out a history of the land question in the Rift Valley and of Kikuyu-Kalenjin relations over the years, culminating in the post-election violence which the political elites of both communities would rather not contemplate just now and going forward. Bensouda told the court that the violence mainly targeted members of the Kikuyu community, who she said were viewed by Ruto’s Kalenjin community as “unwelcome settlers in Rift Valley”. Lead prosecutor in the case Anton Steynberg listed the violence hotspots as the Turbo, Kapsabet, Nandi Hills, Kiambaa, Langas, Kimumu, Huruma and Yamumbi areas in Nandi district and the greater Eldoret area. There was even a video exhibit of the ceremony at which Ruto was crowned as the Kalenjin leader, complete with footage of young men ferried to the ritual in trucks. Ruto was shown in suit, tie and animal skin in the footage, which clearly surprised a number of European members of the court. Epicentre of the post-election violence The prosecution’s focus on Rift Valley in the case of a crisis that rocked Kenya from seashore coast to lakeside beach and many other places in-between was because the region was the epicenter of the violence. It was also because the two men charged in court were from the region. In Uasin Gishu alone, the court was informed, 50,000 houses were razed, more than in any other single area during the violence. There was a moment of levity in court when Nigerian judge Chile Eboe-Osuji, presiding, sought to substitute the word “tribe” with the phrase “ethnic community”, pointing out that an “eminent dictionary” had not long ago defined “tribe” as being descriptive of a collection of people living together in the bush “under barbarous conditions”. Barbarous conditions also defined the details of the violence as rolled out in court and in attendant media coverage of the start of Ruto’s case. British Broadcasting Corporation radio, for instance, resorted to the device of rerunning live coverage of the early stages of the post-election violence beginning with automatic rifle fire, following with the breaking news that “tens of thousands of Kenyans have fled their homes after President Mwai Kibaki was controversially re-elected. About 250 are confirmed dead.” This was followed by a very truculent Dholuo-accented female voice shouting “This is to all Mungikis and to those who have sent them to Nyanza! They will burn the same way!” Immediately after this the BBC had breaking news of the Kiambaa church fire, “In Kenya, at least 30 people have been burnt inside a church…” And then came the BBC interview with one Antony Ng’ang’a Kimani, who had lost his wife in the church arson after she had passed their two-day-old son through a window in an effort to save the infant’s life. The BBC made their point as Kenyans awaited Ruto and Sang’s first appearance in court for their trial proper. Implications for power pact Whatever happens to the Deputy President at The Hague, the outcome of his case will have huge implications at the political level throughout the Rift Valley and particularly on the unprecedented power pact between the Kalenjin and the Kikuyu that is at the heart of the Jubilee Coalition Government that Ruto and President Uhuru Kenyatta now lead. And this is true in a way that is not the case in the President’s own trial scheduled to begin in November. The nature of the deal that Uhuru and Ruto struck and clearly took their communities with them into the Jubilee odyssey will be defined, perhaps even be redefined, and will definitely be sorely tested by the outcome of the latter’s case at The Hague. The Kikuyu-Kalenjin deal was struck under the long shadow of the ICC prosecutions. Now that Bensouda and her team seem to have brought to court cases that give every sign of collapsing and Kenya – thanks to the twin votes in the National Assembly – looks all set to quit the Rome Statute in a year’s time, what will the underpinnings of the Kenyatta-Ruto deal comprise of outside of their first-term incumbency? Almost paradoxically, the deal that gave rise to the Tyranny of Numbers narrative and the Jubilee Coalition will come to look increasingly like a power pact between two individuals rather than between two communities the more the ICC factor recedes. This will also be true if Bensouda recovers her poise after her early setbacks and presses a case that sometimes gives the distinct impression of blowing the Ruto/Sang defence clear out of the water. For Ruto to go down at the ICC just as Kenya is exiting the Rome Statute would impact even more severely on the power pact than any victory scenario. Suddenly, other combinations of the ethnic factor in Kenyan Presidential politicking would seek to partner with the Kalenjin to the disadvantage of the Kikuyu – and the door would be wide open to such schemes in a way it would never be given a victory scenario. William Samoei Ruto holds one of the most critically important political cards in Kenyan history – the Kalenjin side of the power deal with Uhuru Muigai Kenyatta and the Kikuyu. For the Kikuyu, it is crucial that the pact holds for the next several election cycles and not merely as a Tyranny of Numbers factor that puts a lock on State House. Indeed, for the good of all concerned, the pact should be seen to survive both a non-Kikuyu and a non-Kalenjin incumbency of State House. And this is particularly the case if the jurisprudential air cover of the ICC factor is indeed removed by next September. The long and the short of it is that Kikuyu and other non-Kalenjin settlement in the Rift Valley must soon cease to be tied to a ping-pong Mt Kenya/Rift Valley incumbency at State House. Does Power Pact Have a Sell-by Date? The UhuRuto power pact will sooner rather than later therefore have to demonstrate that it has a utility that goes beyond 2017 and which has nothing to do with the individual political, or other, fate of its principals. And then, at just about the time it should be clear how the President and Deputy President’s cases are going, Kenya is set to exit the Rome Statute by September 2014. Already, according to the Financial Times newspaper of London, behind the scenes, several senior diplomats based in Nairobi are quietly stressing the penalties for non-cooperation with the ICC – including “an escalating series of sanctions against the state and diplomatic isolation by the West”. It is important to point out that these quiet warnings concern the on-going cases, not the scheduled withdrawal from the statute timed for late 2014. Nonetheless that, too, has its risks, particularly if the African Union (AU) follows Kenya’s lead and begins setting aside the Rome Statute in large numbers. For the Kikuyu, the pact with the Kalenjin, which produced only the second ethnic-violence-free Presidential poll of the 21-year-long multiparty era earlier this year (the first one was the 2002 event), has existential imperatives. It is in the theatre of the Rift Valley that the notion Kenyans are free to live and thrive anywhere in this country will be tested in the long run. The fragility of this all-important pact was evident in the quiet hostility reserved for ICC victims’ lawyer Peter Nderitu among some Kenyans during the televised sessions in which he held forth at length against Ruto and Sang. Little thought was given to the fact that Nderitu will perform the same task in the same terms when President Kenyatta appears in court in November. Instead, the focus was on such rhetorical questions as “What is a Kikuyu doing prosecuting Ruto so thoroughly? There will be no Kalenjin voice raised against Kenyatta”. That, of course, remains to be seen. But such sentiments emphasize the delicate nature of the power pact that rose from the ashes of the post-election violence. www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-135741/darkness-noon-rift-valley
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Post by b6k on Sept 15, 2013 8:01:11 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, from one honorary gang-banger to another, the gist of the thread IS a gang-bang of Njakip! Just read the subject heading, mate. Count the numerous threads he has started RE ICC, the number of times he has denigrated indictees as if they were already convicted criminals, his "burning"of his KE passport & ID after the general elections to placate his mzungu wife, his freezing of his personal "aid" projects in KE because we are led by thugs (as if the US & the UK are not!) his snide tick tock of 90 years whizzing past in hyper-speed & then tell me why he doesn't deserve a bit of a can of whoop a$$ on his behind. Ok Kathure, I suppose I am gloating. Take me to The Hague! Indeed, it would appear bashing is exactly what our sadistic headteacher had in mind when he opened this pandora's box of a thread! But Njakip is a mean puncher, prepare to wear glasses after your encounters. The return jabs will be wicked. yes, otishotish, for selling the Kenyan passport to a Somali al-something, that one I owe you a rib-cracking punch! Umefanya fujo, lazima utaona! NB: I fault Ruto for completely abandoning Sang at the Hague! Jakaswanga, trust me... Njakip is a paper tiger. I have noted with amusement on several occasions (two or three times) that he has taken to making a hurried response to my posts, leaving them up for a few minutes and them pulling them down once he ponders the consequences of taking on B6k. My E-Tomahawks will cut him down to size as I take no prisoners! Njakip has opted to keep silent & forever hold his peace
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Post by b6k on Sept 15, 2013 8:25:01 GMT 3
Mank, you have made a two part response to two of my posts. As far as the first one goes, keep in mind Tuesday & Wednesday's preceedings were just opening statements allowing all parties to give a synopsis of the case they want to present. There was no right of reply expected or even granted except to the OTP because a defense team "mis-represented" the number of witnesses they intend to call forward. When Bensouda's side-kick tried to expand the right of reply to matters covered by Karim Khan, he was quickly corralled into discussing only matters around the number of victims by Justice Osuji. The back & forths will come later...once the OTP presents their witnesses in the actual court session... Good point! I have to confess that I listen to OTP with lots of impatience ... its impatience developed since the debate about OTP4 and the subsequent coming to the open that Muthaura was being framed (and in my view OTP was willing to go any route to keep him there, even knowing that he was being framed). Since then I have continued to wonder whether OTP turned any alleged "evidence" down as "clear garbage," or if anyone who volunteered a story against the accused got on the Hague ticket! My impatience hit new heights when I heard Bens' side-kick say "... this will show the attacks were not random events, rather, that they were organized events ..." That line was valuable at the pre-trial sessions, but by now I would expect it to be replaced everywhere by " it will show that the accused organized these events." I worry that OTP is hoodwinking Kenya that it has a case, and is just going to be making these teasy statements till the judge calls cases to a halt. This is not the movie I have been waiting for. ... That whisper ("PEACEFULL"! <mass action>) by WSR is a shot across Rayila's bows. If I were Rayila I would be a very worried man. WSR it seems is more than prepared to cast his former boss in a bad light at the ICC. I had chosen to stay on that one, but now that we are in it ... that's my read too. Further, I sense that Ruto wishes he was free to say some things about the chaotic times, but he's forced to stay zip rather than destroy himself in the process of destroying someone else. ... should it reach a point where Ruto starts to look guilty, hey, my bet is we start seeing new characters in the script, and just like that, we got some movie here! If you are familiar with computer programing languages you will therefore understand that I see Ruto as a macro character in the script ... at the right moment it will open up and write in new characters.... alas, you had already preempted me on that one, here: .... Ruto will sell out Rayila in a heartbeat! Expect Ruto's defense to pull out a lot of evidence that will incriminate Rayila while at the same time diminish Ruto's responsibility in all matters PEV. Rayila may find his name & person tarnished to the point he may even want to voluntarily present himself to the ICC to clear it lest he find his reputation is so tattered that 2017 will be nothing more than a pipe dream.... In the Uhuru case, on the other hand, the worst he may say is "I was not running for the presidency in 2007") which is a veiled hint that Kibs is their man. But UK will not directly cast aspersion on his former boss & godfather (in both the Catholic sense & the mafiosi one). The community which is infamous for oathing cannot gvie away one of its own due to strict omerta modus operandi. Having broken away from ODM & being from different communities now on opposite sides of the political divide, WSR isn't bound by any such omerta. For the Uhuru scene of this movie, I have set aside enough pop corn to take me through the Nguyai-driven part, however long it takes. Talk about Rayila having a reason to be afraid ... I hope His Excellency is relaxed and in good health ... there are sweating days ahead, if you recall the suspense left by Nguyai. Mank, indeed when Ocampo failed to table exculpatory evidence that would've helped Muthaura's case (& inversely destroyed Ocampo's) he was not only being disingenuous but was acting against the accepted traditions of the work of a prosecutor. Someday when the dust settles & these trials have run the full course to their logical conclusion(s) (either OTP drops the cases mid-stream or the defense secures acquittals) I will not be surprised if the ICC doesn't hunt down its former prosecutor from retirement & call him to account. The man was used to Africans running helter skelter once he said "Boo!" & never expected the Ocampo 6 to heed his summons & go to The Hague to confront him directly. It is very simple to tag one as guilty when they don't take the time to defend themselves. Just look up north at Omar al-Bashir. Some western commentators allege his case was "cooked up" by Ocampo but the fact that al-Bashir panicked & never took steps to clear his name leaves him looking guilty whether he likes it or not. The tag of "most wanted fugitive" who has to be careful which countries he visits (or even flies over) is very difficult to shake. Uhuru visited the UK without fear as he was fully co-operating with the ICC. No I am not familiar with macro characters but I do believe that Ruto's defense will lay the blame fully at Rayila's feet. If that defense flounders (which I doubt it will under the capable hands of Karim Kahn) then I would expect a cornered Ruto, one who sees that all is lost and he will be incarcerated in The Hague, unleashing the Samson Option on Rayila and tabling any and all evidence that will destroy both Ruto AND Rayila when it comes to all matters PEV... I am not as convinced that what Nguyayi said can be really considered a fatal blow to Uhuru's defense. There was an element of words being "lost in translation" during Lewis' testimony. For instance, when he said the Mungiki lads referred to Uhuru as "the boss" did he really mean that in the mafiosi sense of the godfather or in the KE sense. Don't you on occasion refer to your favorite bartender as "boss"? Kenyan English is a very peculiar thing. You just have to read our dailies to see how the English we speak or write really isn't quite English....or follow Philip Ochieng's posts on grammar et al...
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Post by b6k on Sept 15, 2013 8:34:55 GMT 3
This article by Joe Adama is all over the map! DARKNESS AT NOON IN THE RIFT VALLEY Saturday, September 14, 2013 - 02:30 -- BY JOE ADAMA Now that Bensouda and her team seem to have brought to court cases that give every sign of collapsing and Kenya – thanks to the twin votes in the National Assembly – looks all set to quit the Rome Statute in a year’s time, what will the underpinnings of the Kenyatta-Ruto deal comprise of outside of their first-term incumbency? This will also be true if Bensouda recovers her poise after her early setbacks and presses a case that sometimes gives the distinct impression of blowing the Ruto/Sang defence clear out of the water. What argument is he putting forward? Either the cases will collapse or Ruto will be blown "clear out of the water"! You can't have it both ways. I do agree with him though that the Jubilee coalition's survival/demise hangs in the balance on the outcome of these cases...one way or the other...
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 15, 2013 11:39:59 GMT 3
Indeed, it would appear bashing is exactly what our sadistic headteacher had in mind when he opened this pandora's box of a thread! But Njakip is a mean puncher, prepare to wear glasses after your encounters. The return jabs will be wicked. yes, otishotish, for selling the Kenyan passport to a Somali al-something, that one I owe you a rib-cracking punch! Umefanya fujo, lazima utaona! NB: I fault Ruto for completely abandoning Sang at the Hague! Jakaswanga, trust me... Njakip is a paper tiger. I have noted with amusement on several occasions (two or three times) that he has taken to making a hurried response to my posts, leaving them up for a few minutes and them pulling them down once he ponders the consequences of taking on B6k. My E-Tomahawks will cut him down to size as I take no prisoners! Njakip has opted to keep silent & forever hold his peace And some complain about my ever-flossing ego! next time I will refer them to the real deals like B6k and Njakip! I definitely can not compete in this league of yours! ---I do take prisoners, to amuse myself torturing them in psychopathological bliss! Demented should be the correct word I think!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Sept 15, 2013 16:26:07 GMT 3
... meanwhile Njakip's trial continues to unravel. Very reliable rumors early this afternoon indicate that upto four, yes 4 more witnesses have over the weekend withdrawn their statements and refused to further take part in these cases. Very interesting times.
~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by b6k on Sept 15, 2013 17:35:40 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, trust me... Njakip is a paper tiger. I have noted with amusement on several occasions (two or three times) that he has taken to making a hurried response to my posts, leaving them up for a few minutes and them pulling them down once he ponders the consequences of taking on B6k. My E-Tomahawks will cut him down to size as I take no prisoners! Njakip has opted to keep silent & forever hold his peace And some complain about my ever-flossing ego! next time I will refer them to the real deals like B6k and Njakip! I definitely can not compete in this league of yours! ---I do take prisoners, to amuse myself torturing them in psychopathological bliss! Demented should be the correct word I think! Oh no you don't!...take prisoners that is...
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Post by b6k on Sept 15, 2013 17:55:53 GMT 3
... meanwhile Njakip's trial continues to unravel. Very reliable rumors early this afternoon indicate that upto four, yes 4 more witnesses have over the weekend withdrawn their statements and refused to further take part in these cases. Very interesting times. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Sometimes events can roll in such a way that you get past the tipping point or point of no return. If indeed 4 more witnesses have pulled out, that will leave 16 victim witnesses & the 2 expert witnesses. One wonders at which point the OTP will throw in the towel, or the chamber judges will just pull the plug on the whole debacle. Keep in mind that according to press reports the first adjournment was brought about because the original witnesses from Kiambaa, who were to open the OTP's case "with a bang", pulled out which meant the witness order had to be changed. With that change of order one can imagine the OTP's case also has to be re-worked & amended. After a while it becomes a bit like watching a train wreck in slow motion or having to watch someone having their teeth being pulled out... ( NB: I did read somewhere that the OTP's new first witness arrived in The Hague on Thursday, so be prepared to dip into your popcorn reserves on Tuesday) Others may say we don't want justice at the ICC because we appear to be celebrating the cases collapsing. I say even a flawed case in its own way creates another injustice, which in turn can lead to future injustices. As I always used to try & tell, the now curiously mute Njakip, "fair is a place where they judge pigs". There's nothing fair about how the world really operates...
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 15, 2013 19:17:50 GMT 3
... meanwhile Njakip's trial continues to unravel. Very reliable rumors early this afternoon indicate that upto four, yes 4 more witnesses have over the weekend withdrawn their statements and refused to further take part in these cases. Very interesting times. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Sometimes events can roll in such a way that you get past the tipping point or point of no return. If indeed 4 more witnesses have pulled out, that will leave 16 victim witnesses & the 2 expert witnesses. One wonders at which point the OTP will throw in the towel, or the chamber judges will just pull the plug on the whole debacle. Keep in mind that according to press reports the first adjournment was brought about because the original witnesses from Kiambaa, who were to open the OTP's case "with a bang", pulled out which meant the witness order had to be changed. With that change of order one can imagine the OTP's case also has to be re-worked & amended. After a while it becomes a bit like watching a train wreck in slow motion or having to watch someone having their teeth being pulled out... ( NB: I did read somewhere that the OTP's new first witness arrived in The Hague on Thursday, so be prepared to dip into your popcorn reserves on Tuesday) Others may say we don't want justice at the ICC because we appear to be celebrating the cases collapsing. I say even a flawed case in its own way creates another injustice, which in turn can lead to future injustices. As I always used to try & tell, the now curiously mute Njakip, "fair is a place where they judge pigs". There's nothing fair about how the world really operates... A WORD OF CAUTION TO B6KSang's lawyer went like: Too elastic is the OTP --their case keeps mutating, due to unending investigations! Please put a stop to the OTP for-ever additional disclosures. Now they are 16,000 additional pages, and 980 documents new disclosure. We need time. [NB: remember Matsanga said: Bullshit! these lawyers only want time to feed some more! they can file for acquittal now and get it! so ramshackle are the cases!] 1. B6k, You think all these new documents are bullsh!t? mere scarecrows? The Malaysian looking lady for the OTP has some in-between the lines which are worth pondering. SECURITY SITUATION, which she let hung ominously in the courtroom ---may be for dramatic effect! This was apart from her PLANE reading of article 63 --the accused shall be physically present in court unless he is continuously disruptive, ie mentally off! ---This was as opposed to QC Khan who finds a leeway in the same article which, according to him, imperates the court to BALANCE the demands of Ruto's constitutional responsibilities [as duly elected VP Kenya], with his CIVIL responsibilities to the ICC-court [as an indictee]. Article 61: allows for non-continuous presence but expressly during the CONFIRMATION phase only, according to the OTP lady. Then she had this funny MOST IMPORTANT, is that victims and Kenyans seeing the accused in sitting in the court-room heightens the court's credibility! --Sounded like a warning to judges not to risk making a ridicule of themselves! SECURITY SITUATION: [witness intimidation?] I think the defence will at one time have to face the question of the recanting witnesses. There are of course reports, not necessarily true, that there is a going bounty rate out there in Kenya for recanting witnesses. 2-3M, give and take commissions for the FINDERS and the persuading relatives exerting a bit of pressure! Hell forbid were this to be proved true. 2. There is a known pattern in Kenya of disappearances of would be high-value witnesses. Those Mungiki guys like Diambo. Is the explanation that they died as a result of in-fighting within the ranks of their criminal organisations credible, also to ex top-cop Brigadier Hussein or intelligence boss Michael Gichangi, who may be summoned by Bensouda to go and shed light on the so-called extra-judicial killings regime of the Kenya police special units? [She will of course be impressing upon the court that there was a clean-up operation. Linked now to the mysteriously dying ex-kwekwe ace killers of then. Cleaning up the cleaners?] What will Gichangi or Ali answer to a straight question: How many people have the Kenyan police executed that are connected to Mungiki? ----None whatsoever! The Judges at the court are no fools, they too can infer. Khan and Ruto did sing Ruto's readiness to co-operate and submit voluntarily to the dictates of the ICC, and that this should weigh in granting Ruto a waiver for all sittings. But the weakness with this approach, is that the KENYAN STATE of which Ruto is so senior, can be proved to be dragging its feet [both Ocampo and successor Bensouda are on record on this], and CURRENTLY, the INSTITUTIONAL dragging of fEEt can be made clear by the motion receNtly passed in parliament, of which Ruto and Uhuru are not on record to have blasted an dissociated themselves from. There is even a case before CJ Mutunga to prevent Uhuru from attending. This motion could be granted. The assurances that Kenya and the culprits are dedicated to the ICC are false in practice. The constitutional duties of the two can DICTATE that they no longer COOPERATE with the court! [Kenya law CAN order them not to!] Take all these in your step as you gloat over the sadly silenced Njakip. But then, may be Njakip is lying in wait for you, collecting himself up, livinG to fight another day! ---i will be there to bandage your broken nose ---That is if Njakip takes prisoners ! watch this space. And you mwalimumkuu: these recanting witnesses? all these years their conscience was dormant? or they wanted to maximise the goodies on the OTP side, before turning to maximize the goodies from the other side? You have to give us a foolproof explanation sir!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Sept 15, 2013 20:05:51 GMT 3
... meanwhile Njakip's trial continues to unravel. Very reliable rumors early this afternoon indicate that upto four, yes 4 more witnesses have over the weekend withdrawn their statements and refused to further take part in these cases. Very interesting times. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ There you have it: www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2013/09/four-witnesses-pull-ruto-sang-case/Confirmed by mainstream media. According to Denis Itumbi, one of them is C6, if you rember the confirmation hearings. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by mank on Sept 15, 2013 20:56:00 GMT 3
....I am not as convinced that what Nguyayi said can be really considered a fatal blow to Uhuru's defense. There was an element of words being "lost in translation" during Lewis' testimony. For instance, when he said the Mungiki lads referred to Uhuru as "the boss" did he really mean that in the mafiosi sense of the godfather or in the KE sense. Don't you on occasion refer to your favorite bartender as "boss"? Kenyan English is a very peculiar thing. You just have to read our dailies to see how the English we speak or write really isn't quite English....or follow Philip Ochieng's posts on grammar et al... The challenge to the defense, relying largely on foreign lawyers, is to deliver exactly that point to the court, which on its part is largely European. The judge, with a wholly Nigerian name, lacks any Nigerian accent - which leaves me unsure that he is versed with African lingo in a way to be prepared to understand that calling someone "boss" is not necessarily a expression of a command relationship. On the other hand, I think Nguyai volunteered an easy package for the prosecution to use in asserting that "boss" in this case was indeed in the context of a command chain. Its a very tricky situation for Uhuru, because in most quarters it is a foregone conclusion that if Uhuru had any relationship with Mungiki, then he commanded the Mungiki; yet I would doubt that it can be the case that Uhuru never had any relationship with the Mungiki - the Mungiki was on-off asset and/or liability of politicians, for quite a while. Because Uhuru already took the stance that he had nothing to do with Mungiki, and then here comes Nguyai who makes it seem otherwise, would almost certainly be toast if someone come up with real evidence that the man had touchy relations with Mungiki at any time - from there the assumption that he commanded the Mungiki as alleged would just follow, and he would find it very difficult to flip the first position into ".... oh, yes, I once met with so and so but .... but .... you see, I have nothing to hide!" Ruto has his own Nguyai situation, in the clips of him being crowned tribal leader and youngsters being delivered in vehicles. But I think that's a fairly easy one to dismantle because even Europeans are aware that such public crowning of leaders is just part of our politics ... stories can be found where we even crowned Europeans our brothers or even heads of tribes ... shame!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Sept 15, 2013 22:01:23 GMT 3
And you mwalimumkuu: these recanting witnesses? all these years their conscience was dormant? or they wanted to maximise the goodies on the OTP side, before turning to maximize the goodies from the other side? You have to give us a foolproof explanation sir! Jakaswanga,There is really nothing that needs revealing, Matsanga has already explained it very well. That the 'witnesses' were on sale and went with the highest bidder (he describes it as procurement). If you remember the confirmation hearings esp of Uhuru, some of these guys had approached the defense teams with an intention of being recruited as their witnesses, when they failed to get what they wanted, they hawked themselves to the already very willing OTP which took them in without any due diligence. Some of them might never have thought that this thing would come this far, to them, it was an opportunity to eat the Kenyan way as Njakip would have it and a way of securing a future for their children in the cold west. But the truth is now here with them, what do they do other than bolt out. You must have noticed that the OTP is very 'helpless' with this situation. It speaks volumes that they have so far not pressed any charges against the witnesses. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by gemagema on Sept 16, 2013 0:26:09 GMT 3
Been a while since I was active on Jukwaa. Mmh! Guess I am over the mourning of the demise of Job, Adongo, etc
Anyways, Its all about eerieness!!! Eeriness is why i have come alive today, literary!
The eery feeling is refusing to let go!
In spite of keenly following ICC matters on Jukwaa all along, however without actively responding to the (PEV Victims-) callous and annoying Mwalimumkuu, B6K, Mank, etcetera, this eerie feeling has jolted me into jotting down something today...
As much as I would like to see Justice for the victims of the PEV, it is time we must be 'forced to surrender', before it gets embarrasing. Also, maybe some advise to Bensouda, unless she has something under the Belt, ...."Miss prosecutor Madam, Pls do throw in the towel!!"
WHY? The eery feeling that is refusing to go away...and like Ruto has put it.... "Tuesday is gonna present shockers for Kenyans' and the Red Cross would be better in vicinity, for those who have always wished that Uhuruto suffers away in the Hague" (I hope Njakip is listening)
COME TUESDAY.....It is likely that the scheduled witness will not show up! But in case she shows up, it wont be long before OTP yields to the clandestine powers of the Kenyan Executive.
HOW I PRAY, THE EERY FEELING IS JUST BUT AN ERROR!
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Post by mank on Sept 16, 2013 5:56:23 GMT 3
... In spite of keenly following ICC matters on Jukwaa all along, however without actively responding to the (PEV Victims-) callous and annoying Mwalimumkuu, B6K, Mank, etcetera... That's a serious mischaracterization of people. Are you suggesting that everyone who is sensitive to PEV Victims must be in the lynch-mob for Ruto, Sang and Uhuru? Why take them to court then if we are that confident in their guilt? No favor will be done to PEV victims by jailing 3 people on account of fabricated witness testimony. So if questioning whether witnesses are real or coached makes me callous and annoying in your eyes, I don't want to be anything else to you.
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Post by b6k on Sept 16, 2013 7:40:40 GMT 3
Sometimes events can roll in such a way that you get past the tipping point or point of no return. If indeed 4 more witnesses have pulled out, that will leave 16 victim witnesses & the 2 expert witnesses. One wonders at which point the OTP will throw in the towel, or the chamber judges will just pull the plug on the whole debacle. Keep in mind that according to press reports the first adjournment was brought about because the original witnesses from Kiambaa, who were to open the OTP's case "with a bang", pulled out which meant the witness order had to be changed. With that change of order one can imagine the OTP's case also has to be re-worked & amended. After a while it becomes a bit like watching a train wreck in slow motion or having to watch someone having their teeth being pulled out... ( NB: I did read somewhere that the OTP's new first witness arrived in The Hague on Thursday, so be prepared to dip into your popcorn reserves on Tuesday) Others may say we don't want justice at the ICC because we appear to be celebrating the cases collapsing. I say even a flawed case in its own way creates another injustice, which in turn can lead to future injustices. As I always used to try & tell, the now curiously mute Njakip, "fair is a place where they judge pigs". There's nothing fair about how the world really operates... A WORD OF CAUTION TO B6KSang's lawyer went like: Too elastic is the OTP --their case keeps mutating, due to unending investigations! Please put a stop to the OTP for-ever additional disclosures. Now they are 16,000 additional pages, and 980 documents new disclosure. We need time. [NB: remember Matsanga said: Bullshit! these lawyers only want time to feed some more! they can file for acquittal now and get it! so ramshackle are the cases!] 1. B6k, You think all these new documents are bullsh!t? mere scarecrows? The Malaysian looking lady for the OTP has some in-between the lines which are worth pondering. SECURITY SITUATION, which she let hung ominously in the courtroom ---may be for dramatic effect! This was apart from her PLANE reading of article 63 --the accused shall be physically present in court unless he is continuously disruptive, ie mentally off! ---This was as opposed to QC Khan who finds a leeway in the same article which, according to him, imperates the court to BALANCE the demands of Ruto's constitutional responsibilities [as duly elected VP Kenya], with his CIVIL responsibilities to the ICC-court [as an indictee]. Article 61: allows for non-continuous presence but expressly during the CONFIRMATION phase only, according to the OTP lady. Then she had this funny MOST IMPORTANT, is that victims and Kenyans seeing the accused in sitting in the court-room heightens the court's credibility! --Sounded like a warning to judges not to risk making a ridicule of themselves! SECURITY SITUATION: [witness intimidation?] I think the defence will at one time have to face the question of the recanting witnesses. There are of course reports, not necessarily true, that there is a going bounty rate out there in Kenya for recanting witnesses. 2-3M, give and take commissions for the FINDERS and the persuading relatives exerting a bit of pressure! Hell forbid were this to be proved true. 2. There is a known pattern in Kenya of disappearances of would be high-value witnesses. Those Mungiki guys like Diambo. Is the explanation that they died as a result of in-fighting within the ranks of their criminal organisations credible, also to ex top-cop Brigadier Hussein or intelligence boss Michael Gichangi, who may be summoned by Bensouda to go and shed light on the so-called extra-judicial killings regime of the Kenya police special units? [She will of course be impressing upon the court that there was a clean-up operation. Linked now to the mysteriously dying ex-kwekwe ace killers of then. Cleaning up the cleaners?] What will Gichangi or Ali answer to a straight question: How many people have the Kenyan police executed that are connected to Mungiki? ----None whatsoever! The Judges at the court are no fools, they too can infer. Khan and Ruto did sing Ruto's readiness to co-operate and submit voluntarily to the dictates of the ICC, and that this should weigh in granting Ruto a waiver for all sittings. But the weakness with this approach, is that the KENYAN STATE of which Ruto is so senior, can be proved to be dragging its feet [both Ocampo and successor Bensouda are on record on this], and CURRENTLY, the INSTITUTIONAL dragging of fEEt can be made clear by the motion receNtly passed in parliament, of which Ruto and Uhuru are not on record to have blasted an dissociated themselves from. There is even a case before CJ Mutunga to prevent Uhuru from attending. This motion could be granted. The assurances that Kenya and the culprits are dedicated to the ICC are false in practice. The constitutional duties of the two can DICTATE that they no longer COOPERATE with the court! [Kenya law CAN order them not to!] Take all these in your step as you gloat over the sadly silenced Njakip. But then, may be Njakip is lying in wait for you, collecting himself up, livinG to fight another day! ---i will be there to bandage your broken nose ---That is if Njakip takes prisoners ! watch this space. And you mwalimumkuu: these recanting witnesses? all these years their conscience was dormant? or they wanted to maximise the goodies on the OTP side, before turning to maximize the goodies from the other side? You have to give us a foolproof explanation sir! Jakaswanga, caution noted. However I will take my chances and still hold my ground that both cases are going nowhere in the long term. I think it was Sadik who started a thread on the opening statements "verbatim". Curiously, he only had transcripts for the OTP and Karim Khan's defense of Ruto. He skipped the victims advocate's (Nderitu) presentation of day 1 entirely & never followed up with an update of day 2's opening statements at all. The interesting thing about Nderitu is he doesn't appear to be as confident as Bensouda that presenting a case that has been dogged with witness withdrawals will not hamper his case in any way. A bit of background may be in order here. Nderitu is said to have had a witness list totaling 93 individuals. 33 of those are said to have written to him to withdraw from presenting any testimony. Of the balance 60 witness only 7 have been approved to take part in the trial after having met with Nderitu's team. Part of the victims "beef" with the ICC process is that they do NOT want to receive collective reparations (ie a school or hospital built on behalf of the community) because many of them still live near the perpetrators of the PEV crimes who will also stand to benefit from their suffering. In short, the majority want a reparation process that will go to them personally. Now for the interesting part. Nderitu made the following remarks in his opening statement last Tuesday: “At another level, your Honours, the withdrawals will make meaningless efforts by the Court to address the immunity — the impunity gap, and at yet another level I hasten to warn that the withdrawals may well spell the death knell for this Court and for international criminal justice as we perceive it today,” Nderitu said in his opening statement.
“Your Honours therefore have the noble, but equally difficult, task to take appropriate steps to ensure the effective investigation of both witness and victim withdrawal from the proceedings and to take appropriate consequential measures. The victims I represent are convinced that in this you will not disappoint” This before he went on to remind the judges that they need to be "angry" forgetting full well that judges, as he was reminded by Osuji, prefer to go into their deliberations in a "sober" & reflective frame of mind, sans emotion & baggage. Many here on Jukwaa still approach the cases with a lot of pent up anger & emotion against the accused, as though they are already guilty of the crimes they are charged merely due to the fact that they are in that court. Heck I have sang here on Jukwaa of how my family members suffered in the PEV resulting in one fatality, destruction of & loss of property, and several forceful evictions. But even I have had to look at the evidence thus far presented against Ruto/Sang, sans emotion & baggage, and admit that it most likely will not be enough to incarcerate them. I just wish other "victims rightists" on Jukwaa could equally step back and look at the ICC process without prejudice as well. They just might start seeing things in a different light... So I say to Otishotish, I hope his western justice system, represented by the OTP, which he lauded as a silver bullet against KE impunity will recover its footing and present better cases. My heart is with the OTP, but my "money" is with the defense coming out on top in these cases given what we all saw in Day 1...
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Post by b6k on Sept 16, 2013 7:52:44 GMT 3
....I am not as convinced that what Nguyayi said can be really considered a fatal blow to Uhuru's defense. There was an element of words being "lost in translation" during Lewis' testimony. For instance, when he said the Mungiki lads referred to Uhuru as "the boss" did he really mean that in the mafiosi sense of the godfather or in the KE sense. Don't you on occasion refer to your favorite bartender as "boss"? Kenyan English is a very peculiar thing. You just have to read our dailies to see how the English we speak or write really isn't quite English....or follow Philip Ochieng's posts on grammar et al... The challenge to the defense, relying largely on foreign lawyers, is to deliver exactly that point to the court, which on its part is largely European. The judge, with a wholly Nigerian name, lacks any Nigerian accent - which leaves me unsure that he is versed with African lingo in a way to be prepared to understand that calling someone "boss" is not necessarily a expression of a command relationship. On the other hand, I think Nguyai volunteered an easy package for the prosecution to use in asserting that "boss" in this case was indeed in the context of a command chain. Its a very tricky situation for Uhuru, because in most quarters it is a foregone conclusion that if Uhuru had any relationship with Mungiki, then he commanded the Mungiki; yet I would doubt that it can be the case that Uhuru never had any relationship with the Mungiki - the Mungiki was on-off asset and/or liability of politicians, for quite a while. Because Uhuru already took the stance that he had nothing to do with Mungiki, and then here comes Nguyai who makes it seem otherwise, would almost certainly be toast if someone come up with real evidence that the man had touchy relations with Mungiki at any time - from there the assumption that he commanded the Mungiki as alleged would just follow, and he would find it very difficult to flip the first position into ".... oh, yes, I once met with so and so but .... but .... you see, I have nothing to hide!" Ruto has his own Nguyai situation, in the clips of him being crowned tribal leader and youngsters being delivered in vehicles. But I think that's a fairly easy one to dismantle because even Europeans are aware that such public crowning of leaders is just part of our politics ... stories can be found where we even crowned Europeans our brothers or even heads of tribes ... shame! Mank, when you are dealing with foreign judges your best bet may just be to have foreign judges. Just compare the body language of the judges when Karim Kahn was making his presentation to that when Katwa Kigen read his: they were riveted with the former & looked somewhat disinterested with the latter. I look at Uhuru's problems somewhat differently. In the PTC we already saw his defense pushing the story that Mungiki was actually with ODM. Expect more of that. Uhuru finds himself as the only PNU accused sitting in that dock because he was a private citizen at the time he allegedly committed his crimes. The two government connected individuals (Ali & Muthaura) got away with it because the common plan story just couldn't stick. It will be interesting to see who Uhuru was commonly planning with without his co-aaccused...
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Post by b6k on Sept 16, 2013 7:58:57 GMT 3
... In spite of keenly following ICC matters on Jukwaa all along, however without actively responding to the (PEV Victims-) callous and annoying Mwalimumkuu, B6K, Mank, etcetera... That's a serious mischaracterization of people. Are you suggesting that everyone who is sensitive to PEV Victims must be in the lynch-mob for Ruto, Sang and Uhuru? Why take them to court then if we are that confident in their guilt? No favor will be done to PEV victims by jailing 3 people on account of fabricated witness testimony. So if questioning whether witnesses are real or coached makes me callous and annoying in your eyes, I don't want to be anything else to you. Mank, I second your response to Gemagema. As I said earlier, Kenyan English is a very peculiar animal. Evidently its peculiarities extend beyond the spoken and written parts I had discussed to even the reading (comprehension) end of the spectrum.
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Post by podp on Sept 16, 2013 10:13:58 GMT 3
how come that those in the Waki envelope, none has been found worthy of being tried locally even in the absence of a local tribunal. we have witnessed some lone killers and arsonists yet no rapists or trigger happy police other than the Kisumu rambo filmed cop. so somehow what was written this weekend rings a bell. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000093499&story_title=Kenya-kindiki-murkomen-have-sank-low-over-push-to-pull-kenya-out-of-iccThe court was established for people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC. They are tried at home. You don’t therefore see them in the ICC.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 16:37:13 GMT 3
SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 2013 Witnesses tell of cartel behind their move to quit case By ANDREW TEYIE Allegations of witness coaching, intimidation, coercion and cajoling have been the hallmarks of the Kenyan cases at The Hague. Interviews with people who have dropped out of the ICC witness list paint a dark picture of an operation that is replete with blackmail by crooked individuals out to derail the cases by all means. Claims of false witnesses coached by the civil society have also clouded the hearing, which started last week with Deputy President William Ruto and radio presenter Joshua Sang appearing before the judges. The Sunday Nation has established that the shadowy team hunting down witnesses includes lawyers and businessmen. The witnesses are identified through relatives and former allies, who lure them from their safe houses in the region. The witnesses who recant their testimonies are allegedly rewarded with between Sh2 and Sh3 million each, while those who resist are coerced through relatives, friends and family until they give up. Both the prosecution and defence have disputed claims of either coaching or bribing witnesses to strengthen or weaken the cases. Our sources also said that the gang of witness busters is tracking down about 10 individuals to make them stand down. Apart from top lawyers and businessmen, the network also includes community elders who use the extended family to intimidate witnesses into surrendering. One of the individuals we interviewed showed us telephone numbers (withheld) they claimed were used by former ICC witnesses to convince witnesses in Poland and Tanzania to stop working with ICC. Some of them are back in Kenya and are living extravagantly having bought parcels of land and cars. For instance, a man from Nandi County, who renounced his testimony in February, has since bought a seven-seater vehicle, land and a plot in a move that has left villagers wondering his sudden source of funding. Another claimed he quit the ICC train after he was told that his elderly mother was ailing and might die in his absence. The man from Uasin Gishu County returned to Kenya late last month. He was poor when he left the village but now he’s the talk of the village owing to his changed financial status. A man at the centre of the bribery claims is said to have bought land and several motor bikes for taxi business. EXIT PROGRAMME But a former witness dismissed claims that they were being lured to leave the ICC witness protection unit. Instead, he blames his ICC handlers and attempts by non-governmental organisations to influence the cases as a reason for his exit from the programme. He claimed that he was paid a monthly stipend of Sh100,000 for upkeep while his children were enrolled in international schools. As we were conducting the interview, he was informed that three Caucasian men were in his village trying to ascertain his whereabouts. The foreigners were believed to be detectives from ICC. On Tuesday, ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda said her office was investigating claims of witness bribery. Those found guilty, she warned, risked a five-year jail term. During the interviews, we also established that some of the witnesses were in the programme for money and had no intention of running the full course. “Some of them saw an opportunity for a better life elsewhere. And that is why some people are talking about witness coaching by human rights organisations,” said a source. Yesterday, Centre for Human Rights and Democracy chairman Ken Wafula, however, dismissed the claims as false in a statement to the Sunday Nation. FUNDS FROM MISSIONS “False allegations have been made repeatedly about human rights NGOs in the ongoing ICC trials. It is claimed that the Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, of which I am a top official, received funds from foreign missions to bribe and coach witnesses. This is political propaganda riddled with raw lies,” says Mr Wafula. Mombasa Senator Omar Hassan has also dismissed claims of witness coaching or writing a letter to President Uhuru Kenyatta and Deputy President William Ruto apologising over ICC cases. In a post on his Facebook page, Mr Hassan said: “I am cognisant of a post circulating in the social media alleging that I, Hassan Omar Hassan, wrote to President Uhuru Kenyatta and his Deputy William Ruto last week “apologising to the two saying he was misguided by the devil to incriminate them at the ICC” over my alleged role in witness coaching. Various allegations were also contained in the post with respect to the said letter I allegedly wrote to the President and his Deputy.”
www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Witnesses+tell+of+cartel+behind+their+move+to+quit+case+++/-/1064/1993016/-/w7iecr/-/index.html
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Sept 16, 2013 17:41:35 GMT 3
This is becoming a wreck of some kind as two more witnesses took a walk early today bringing the total of those who have quit the cases between Friday and today to SIX. Very bad for the OTP. At this rate, there could be another adjournment by end of the week if not total surrender by Bensouda.
~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Sept 16, 2013 17:53:08 GMT 3
how come that those in the Waki envelope, none has been found worthy of being tried locally even in the absence of a local tribunal. we have witnessed some lone killers and arsonists yet no rapists or trigger happy police other than the Kisumu rambo filmed cop. so somehow what was written this weekend rings a bell. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000093499&story_title=Kenya-kindiki-murkomen-have-sank-low-over-push-to-pull-kenya-out-of-iccThe court was established for people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC. They are tried at home. You don’t therefore see them in the ICC. This is a fallacy that has been peddled around over and over, yet informed only by what is written of the court at its inception and not what in reality, the court has been doing. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by podp on Sept 16, 2013 19:28:58 GMT 3
how come that those in the Waki envelope, none has been found worthy of being tried locally even in the absence of a local tribunal. we have witnessed some lone killers and arsonists yet no rapists or trigger happy police other than the Kisumu rambo filmed cop. so somehow what was written this weekend rings a bell. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000093499&story_title=Kenya-kindiki-murkomen-have-sank-low-over-push-to-pull-kenya-out-of-iccThe court was established for people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC. They are tried at home. You don’t therefore see them in the ICC. This is a fallacy that has been peddled around over and over, yet informed only by what is written of the court at its inception and not what in reality, the court has been doing. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ something separate just to understand the red high light above. “This means the common mwananchi will continue to be killed while the politicians, who have directly or indirectly caused the violence, remain protected,” said human rights activist Abdullahi Galgalo. He added, “The Inspector General of Police should stop being intimidated by these politicians, who hide behind the Executive arm of the government.” The activists called on Kimaiyo to provide a full list of names of people who have been interrogated up to now on the clashes in Mandera and Moyale, and also explain measures he has taken to contain the violence. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000093643&story_title=leaders-blocking-moyale-killings-probe-says-lobbyso if you have been following what is happening in Kenya recently and in particular Marsabit County two ethnic groups have been fighting. so hypothetically if the casualties top 1,000 and our security forces have no culprits in custody....no court cases against perpetrators etc. and ICC steps in would that also be a fallacy? ... people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC. They are tried at home.
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 16, 2013 19:35:40 GMT 3
Now for the interesting part. Nderitu made the following remarks in his opening statement last Tuesday: “At another level, your Honours, the withdrawals will make meaningless efforts by the Court to address the immunity — the impunity gap, and at yet another level I hasten to warn that the withdrawals may well spell the death knell for this Court and for international criminal justice as we perceive it today,” Nderitu said in his opening statement.“Your Honours therefore have the noble, but equally difficult, task to take appropriate steps to ensure the effective investigation of both witness and victim withdrawal from the proceedings and to take appropriate consequential measures. The victims I represent are convinced that in this you will not disappoint” This before he went on to remind the judges that they need to be "angry" forgetting full well that judges, as he was reminded by Osuji, prefer to go into their deliberations in a "sober" & reflective frame of mind, sans emotion & baggage. Many here on Jukwaa still approach the cases with a lot of pent up anger & emotion against the accused, as though they are already guilty of the crimes they are charged merely due to the fact that they are in that court. Heck I have sang here on Jukwaa of how my family members suffered in the PEV resulting in one fatality, destruction of & loss of property, and several forceful evictions. But even I have had to look at the evidence thus far presented against Ruto/Sang, sans emotion & baggage, and admit that it most likely will not be enough to incarcerate them. I just wish other "victims rightists" on Jukwaa could equally step back and look at the ICC process without prejudice as well. They just might start seeing things in a different light... B6k, Nderitu on witness withdrawal: I am with him on that one; there is need for a good explanation as to why witnesses are withdrawing. It could help us to know whether they have recanted the statements as LIES, or whether the statements are still true, but they no longer will be valid in a court of law because of the recantation. It is like in countries where a man can be proved a murderer but walks free because the police used unconstitutional methods to gain evidence, such evidence then struck off the courts records, and gone is the PROOF! [That is in jurisdictions where ILLEGALLY OBTAINED EVIDENCE, however decisive, is not acceptable in a due process in a court of law: --There are of course jurisdictions who do not care how evidence is obtained: TORTURE will be food enough for the Judge! Obama's model at Guantanao I think!] One weakness with this court, is precisely the INVESTIGATIONS which QC Khan so neatly identifies as the Achilles heel of the OTP. In the real world of crime fighting, highly trained investigators are the professionals doing the job. But these guys who collect even newspaper reports!? they are of such amateurish level that it is shame to even the worst detective book ever written! But it is a worthwhile attempt at civilisation in a dark period! But this I wont accept: People who run torture chambers like Obama reading Kenya the riot act on cooperation with this court!
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