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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 16, 2013 19:43:30 GMT 3
... In spite of keenly following ICC matters on Jukwaa all along, however without actively responding to the (PEV Victims-) callous and annoying Mwalimumkuu, B6K, Mank, etcetera... That's a serious mischaracterization of people. Are you suggesting that everyone who is sensitive to PEV Victims must be in the lynch-mob for Ruto, Sang and Uhuru? Why take them to court then if we are that confident in their guilt? No favor will be done to PEV victims by jailing 3 people on account of fabricated witness testimony. So if questioning whether witnesses are real or coached makes me callous and annoying in your eyes, I don't want to be anything else to you. Mank as annoying is a new one for me! b6k is of course a public executioner who takes no prisoners and therefore as annoying as a terrorist! And Mwalimumkuu is a sadist who has specifically launched a thread to have Njakip's head bashed and smashed! But Mank! even his sister Kathure has never described him as annoying!
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Post by mank on Sept 16, 2013 21:11:29 GMT 3
That's a serious mischaracterization of people. Are you suggesting that everyone who is sensitive to PEV Victims must be in the lynch-mob for Ruto, Sang and Uhuru? Why take them to court then if we are that confident in their guilt? No favor will be done to PEV victims by jailing 3 people on account of fabricated witness testimony. So if questioning whether witnesses are real or coached makes me callous and annoying in your eyes, I don't want to be anything else to you. Mank as annoying is a new one for me! b6k is of course a public executioner who takes no prisoners and therefore as annoying as a terrorist! And Mwalimumkuu is a sadist who has specifically launched a thread to have Njakip's head bashed and smashed! But Mank! even his sister Kathure has never described him as annoying! Amigo Jakaswanga, I think all Gemagema is saying is that Man K, among others, keep saying inconvenient things. Sister Kathure does express her disgust for the same in different ways .
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Post by b6k on Sept 16, 2013 23:01:55 GMT 3
how come that those in the Waki envelope, none has been found worthy of being tried locally even in the absence of a local tribunal. we have witnessed some lone killers and arsonists yet no rapists or trigger happy police other than the Kisumu rambo filmed cop. so somehow what was written this weekend rings a bell. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000093499&story_title=Kenya-kindiki-murkomen-have-sank-low-over-push-to-pull-kenya-out-of-iccThe court was established for people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC. They are tried at home. You don’t therefore see them in the ICC. Podp, assuming your premise is true, then why aren't the leaders of the great western powers (or power & poodle), namely the US & the UK, dragged before the ICC for their crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, & beyond? As I have argued before on Jukwaa, in ALL countries on the face of the planet, a form of privilege (private law) prevails where a certain class, extremely limited in number, IS above the law. Otherwise how do you get the 99% protests that we saw in the USA recently?...
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Post by b6k on Sept 16, 2013 23:04:27 GMT 3
This is a fallacy that has been peddled around over and over, yet informed only by what is written of the court at its inception and not what in reality, the court has been doing. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ something separate just to understand the red high light above. “This means the common mwananchi will continue to be killed while the politicians, who have directly or indirectly caused the violence, remain protected,” said human rights activist Abdullahi Galgalo. He added, “The Inspector General of Police should stop being intimidated by these politicians, who hide behind the Executive arm of the government.” The activists called on Kimaiyo to provide a full list of names of people who have been interrogated up to now on the clashes in Mandera and Moyale, and also explain measures he has taken to contain the violence. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000093643&story_title=leaders-blocking-moyale-killings-probe-says-lobbyso if you have been following what is happening in Kenya recently and in particular Marsabit County two ethnic groups have been fighting. so hypothetically if the casualties top 1,000 and our security forces have no culprits in custody....no court cases against perpetrators etc. and ICC steps in would that also be a fallacy? ... people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC. They are tried at home.I say they are not tried but hailed as heroes. Sound familiar?
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Post by b6k on Sept 16, 2013 23:08:16 GMT 3
Now for the interesting part. Nderitu made the following remarks in his opening statement last Tuesday: “At another level, your Honours, the withdrawals will make meaningless efforts by the Court to address the immunity — the impunity gap, and at yet another level I hasten to warn that the withdrawals may well spell the death knell for this Court and for international criminal justice as we perceive it today,” Nderitu said in his opening statement.“Your Honours therefore have the noble, but equally difficult, task to take appropriate steps to ensure the effective investigation of both witness and victim withdrawal from the proceedings and to take appropriate consequential measures. The victims I represent are convinced that in this you will not disappoint” This before he went on to remind the judges that they need to be "angry" forgetting full well that judges, as he was reminded by Osuji, prefer to go into their deliberations in a "sober" & reflective frame of mind, sans emotion & baggage. Many here on Jukwaa still approach the cases with a lot of pent up anger & emotion against the accused, as though they are already guilty of the crimes they are charged merely due to the fact that they are in that court. Heck I have sang here on Jukwaa of how my family members suffered in the PEV resulting in one fatality, destruction of & loss of property, and several forceful evictions. But even I have had to look at the evidence thus far presented against Ruto/Sang, sans emotion & baggage, and admit that it most likely will not be enough to incarcerate them. I just wish other "victims rightists" on Jukwaa could equally step back and look at the ICC process without prejudice as well. They just might start seeing things in a different light... B6k, Nderitu on witness withdrawal: I am with him on that one; there is need for a good explanation as to why witnesses are withdrawing. It could help us to know whether they have recanted the statements as LIES, or whether the statements are still true, but they no longer will be valid in a court of law because of the recantation. It is like in countries where a man can be proved a murderer but walks free because the police used unconstitutional methods to gain evidence, such evidence then struck off the courts records, and gone is the PROOF! [That is in jurisdictions where ILLEGALLY OBTAINED EVIDENCE, however decisive, is not acceptable in a due process in a court of law: --There are of course jurisdictions who do not care how evidence is obtained: TORTURE will be food enough for the Judge! Obama's model at Guantanao I think!] One weakness with this court, is precisely the INVESTIGATIONS which QC Khan so neatly identifies as the Achilles heel of the OTP. In the real world of crime fighting, highly trained investigators are the professionals doing the job. But these guys who collect even newspaper reports!? they are of such amateurish level that it is shame to even the worst detective book ever written! But it is a worthwhile attempt at civilisation in a dark period! But this I wont accept: People who run torture chambers like Obama reading Kenya the riot act on cooperation with this court! Indeed those pesky double standards. Obama the bomber can kill wantonly with his drones without so much as a peep from the international community. He can organize renditions that lead to suspects being held incommunicado at Guantanamo Bay with a whimper from the international community. It pays to wield a big stick in this world...
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Post by b6k on Sept 16, 2013 23:09:44 GMT 3
That's a serious mischaracterization of people. Are you suggesting that everyone who is sensitive to PEV Victims must be in the lynch-mob for Ruto, Sang and Uhuru? Why take them to court then if we are that confident in their guilt? No favor will be done to PEV victims by jailing 3 people on account of fabricated witness testimony. So if questioning whether witnesses are real or coached makes me callous and annoying in your eyes, I don't want to be anything else to you. Mank as annoying is a new one for me! b6k is of course a public executioner who takes no prisoners and therefore as annoying as a terrorist! And Mwalimumkuu is a sadist who has specifically launched a thread to have Njakip's head bashed and smashed! But Mank! even his sister Kathure has never described him as annoying! Ahem...Jukwaa records will reflect that even Mank has had a clash with his "sister" Kathure...
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Post by podp on Sept 17, 2013 22:53:46 GMT 3
Podp, assuming your premise is true, then why aren't the leaders of the great western powers (or power & poodle), namely the US & the UK, dragged before the ICC for their crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, & beyond? As I have argued before on Jukwaa, in ALL countries on the face of the planet, a form of privilege (private law) prevails where a certain class, extremely limited in number, IS above the law. Otherwise how do you get the 99% protests that we saw in the USA recently?... [/quote] the US, UK etc. have killed non US, UK etc. citizens and they told their voters that they are doing it for the 'security' of the home land, implying only US, UK etc. is a country made up of civilized people while Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. are ruled by barbaric despots who even their fellow 'citizens' do not vote for as they do not practice 'democracy'. let our indictees for example go to Somali, South Sudan etc. and kill the citizens of those countries before gloating to us how they are pursuing 'terrorists' in Somali, South Sudan etc. threatening our peaceful co-existant as Kenyans. or even let them say those PEV burnt in Eldoret, Naivasha etc. were a danger to our wellbeing as Kenyans and hence we should all say hail our PORK and Deputy PORK for nipping those local terrorists from our midst... The court was established for people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC.just curious would you compare the actions of any US, UK etc. president or prime minister with that of the suspected perpetrators of Kenya's 1992, 1997 and 2007/8 atrocities against their own citizens i.e. PORK or Deputy PORK going to ask our Parliament to vote to do what happened in Kenya in 1991/2, 1997 and 2007/8? and instead of hiding behind 'prayers' and 'their mothers skirts' going to remind our citizens how necessary it is to repeat 1991/2, 1997 and 2007/8 actions in future when 'terrorists' within our midst threaten our peaceful coexistence
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Post by podp on Sept 17, 2013 23:34:38 GMT 3
....no court cases against perpetrators etc. and ICC steps in would that also be a fallacy? ... people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC. They are tried at home.I say they are not tried but hailed as heroes. Sound familiar?[/quote] “Our advanced technological society is rapidly making objects of most of us and subtly programming us into conformity to the logic of its system. To the degree that this happens, we are also becoming submerged in a new ‘culture of silence.’” lordsofbotetourt.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/paulo-freires-critical-pedagogy-a-description-and-american-application/“When a word is deprived of its dimension of action, reflection automatically suffers as well; and the word is changed into idle chatter, into verbalism, into an alienated and alienating ‘blah.’ It becomes an empty word, one which cannot denounce the world, for denunciation is impossible without a commitment to transform, and there is no transformation without action.”
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Post by mank on Sept 18, 2013 3:38:55 GMT 3
Kenya VP trial witness sobs recalling church massacreFrom news.yahoo.com/kenya-vp-trial-witness-sobs-she-recalls-church-144220858.htmlThe first witness in Kenya Vice President William Ruto's crimes against humanity trial broke down Tuesday as she testified how a singing, machete-wielding mob trapped thousands inside a church and set it ablaze. The woman, whose identity is protected and referred to only as "Witness P0536", told the International Criminal Court that "around 3,000" youths surrounded the church where she had joined some 2,000 people in hiding. "They were painted with white clay... some had machetes, axes and sticks," she said, adding "they were singing." "We were all trying to find a way to escape. I was carrying my small child with me," the witness recalled on the opening day of the prosecution's case against Ruto. "The church was set alight," said the woman, whose face was pixellated on television screens and her voice disguised as she testified in Swahili, before she broke down sobbing. She described how the church roof was covered with fuel, allegedly "carried in a blue plastic jerrycan" by a local opposition leader.The witness said bicycles were used to block a main entrance of the church to stop people from escaping while youths laid in wait at another exit. "When somebody tried to leave the church, they would grab the person and push them back inside," she said. "I went mad," she told the judges. The prosecution alleges the massacre was part of a plan of ethnic violence orchestrated by Ruto to "satisfy his thirst for power" after disputed 2007 elections. More than 1,000 people died in the post-poll unrest. Presiding judge Chile Eboe-Osuji cut short proceedings before lunch to give the witness a chance to compose herself. -- 'It was the first time I saw a rape' -- Ruto, 46, and his co-defendant, Kenyan radio boss Joshua arap Sang, 38, stand accused of organising and stoking the worst violence in the east African country since independence in 1963. They are pleading not guilty. Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta, Ruto's former political foe turned ally, begins his own trial for crimes against humanity at the court on November 12. He has also proclaimed his innocence. The violence, which laid bare simmering ethnic tensions, was mainly directed at members of Kenya's largest Kikuyu tribe, who were perceived as supporters of then president Mwai Kibaki's Party of National Unity (PNU). Initial attacks quickly led to reprisals, with homes torched and more people hacked to death. Prosecutors opened their case against Ruto looking at the church massacre at Kiambaa village, about 11 kilometres (seven miles) south of the western Rift Valley town of Eldoret, on New Year's Day 2008. The prosecution alleges that between 17 to 35 people were burnt alive after supporters of Ruto's Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) locked ethnic Kikuyus in the church and set it on fire. "Those who attempted to flee were hacked to death," the prosecution said in court documents, without giving a number of victims. After the Kiambaa attack, the witness told how she witnessed a woman being raped, before her brother was struck in the neck with an arrow. He survived the ordeal. "It was the first time I saw a rape with my own eyes," the witness said. Prosecutors sought to hear large parts of her testimony in closed session, out of earshot of the public gallery. In the gallery itself, many of Ruto's supporters sneered at some of the witness's statements, which even the Swahili interpreters at times found difficult to follow. Ruto and Sang each face three charges of murder, deportation and persecution. The cases have been mired in accusations of witness intimidation, allegations dismissed by the defence even though several witnesses pulled out of giving testimony. ====================================================================================================================================== Reported elsewhere: ICC Kenya case: Witness says Stephen Chamalan, a local leader, was at the centre of the church attack. Attackers had painted their bodies with white clay. - www.nation.co.ke/Now there, that's a witness! So a man by the name Stephen Chamalan is supposed to be on trial ... and he's not! Better must come!
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Post by mank on Sept 18, 2013 5:24:35 GMT 3
ICC witness names Kiambaa church attackersNAIROBI, Kenya, Sept 17 – Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo and an unknown male identified as ‘Brown,’ on account of his light skin colour, were adversely mentioned when the ICC prosecution’s first witness took to the stand on Tuesday. The witness known only as P0536 to protect her identity was overcome with emotion as she recounted the roles the four individuals played in the torching and subsequent murder of those who had sought refuge at the Kenya Assemblies of God church in Kiambaa on January 1, 2008. She accused Chemalang’ of leading about 3,000 youths covered in white chalk to the church compound with machetes, bows and arrows in tow. “Chemelang’ himself was wearing khaki trousers and a bandana on his head, I saw him through a crack in the church window with a blue jerrycan in his hand. He poured the contents of the jerrycan, petrol, onto one of our mattresses and threw it onto the roof of the church in which we were hiding,” she recounted. The witness said she was one of 2,000, mainly mothers and children, who had sought safety in the confines of the modest church constructed using wood, mud and corrugated iron sheets. .... ============================================================== Now, does the prosecutor table a charge against Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo, or just continue to argue that because there is so much evidence of violence then Ruto and Sang are guilty?
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Post by b6k on Sept 18, 2013 6:32:46 GMT 3
Podp, assuming your premise is true, then why aren't the leaders of the great western powers (or power & poodle), namely the US & the UK, dragged before the ICC for their crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, & beyond? As I have argued before on Jukwaa, in ALL countries on the face of the planet, a form of privilege (private law) prevails where a certain class, extremely limited in number, IS above the law. Otherwise how do you get the 99% protests that we saw in the USA recently?... the US, UK etc. have killed non US, UK etc. citizens and they told their voters that they are doing it for the 'security' of the home land, implying only US, UK etc. is a country made up of civilized people while Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. are ruled by barbaric despots who even their fellow 'citizens' do not vote for as they do not practice 'democracy'. let our indictees for example go to Somali, South Sudan etc. and kill the citizens of those countries before gloating to us how they are pursuing 'terrorists' in Somali, South Sudan etc. threatening our peaceful co-existant as Kenyans. or even let them say those PEV burnt in Eldoret, Naivasha etc. were a danger to our wellbeing as Kenyans and hence we should all say hail our PORK and Deputy PORK for nipping those local terrorists from our midst... The court was established for people who are above the law in their countries. Although their laws do not expressly exempt them from punishment for doing things that would jail somebody else, their positions and influence are such that the law cannot touch them. Put differently, citizens of countries in which the law is blind to people’s status do not get dragged to the ICC.just curious would you compare the actions of any US, UK etc. president or prime minister with that of the suspected perpetrators of Kenya's 1992, 1997 and 2007/8 atrocities against their own citizens i.e. PORK or Deputy PORK going to ask our Parliament to vote to do what happened in Kenya in 1991/2, 1997 and 2007/8? and instead of hiding behind 'prayers' and 'their mothers skirts' going to remind our citizens how necessary it is to repeat 1991/2, 1997 and 2007/8 actions in future when 'terrorists' within our midst threaten our peaceful coexistence [/quote] Podp,so in your view past & present leaders of the US & UK have committed no crimes because they have not killed any citizen within their borders?!! The charges the three Kenyans face at the ICC are in a nutshell, crimes against humanity. To use the citizen/non-citizen argument gives the impression that you believe that humanity begins & ends within the borders of the US & the UK...until we come to the Kenya case then we suddenly have humans again to allow Uhuruto & Sang to be charged at the ICC... As for the multi-party clashes of '92 & '97, the perpetrator still walks amongst us a free man. We had hoped the ICC would get down to the bottom of the perpetrators of the 2007/8 PEV, as things look so far I doubt they will. And no, PEV cannot be compared to anything the US & UK leaders perpetrate. It is a gerrymandering exercise that is peculiar to the KE political situation which had been practiced pre-election in the nineties & then post election in '07/'08. The US & UK are a lot more "sophisticated" in the way they go about the business of mass murder. They do it with the full cooperation & involvement of the "international community"...they call it the coalition of the willing & the like. After all, if everybody has blood on their hands, then nobody is guilty, au sio?
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Post by b6k on Sept 18, 2013 6:51:41 GMT 3
ICC witness names Kiambaa church attackersNAIROBI, Kenya, Sept 17 – Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo and an unknown male identified as ‘Brown,’ on account of his light skin colour, were adversely mentioned when the ICC prosecution’s first witness took to the stand on Tuesday. The witness known only as P0536 to protect her identity was overcome with emotion as she recounted the roles the four individuals played in the torching and subsequent murder of those who had sought refuge at the Kenya Assemblies of God church in Kiambaa on January 1, 2008. She accused Chemalang’ of leading about 3,000 youths covered in white chalk to the church compound with machetes, bows and arrows in tow. “Chemelang’ himself was wearing khaki trousers and a bandana on his head, I saw him through a crack in the church window with a blue jerrycan in his hand. He poured the contents of the jerrycan, petrol, onto one of our mattresses and threw it onto the roof of the church in which we were hiding,” she recounted. The witness said she was one of 2,000, mainly mothers and children, who had sought safety in the confines of the modest church constructed using wood, mud and corrugated iron sheets. .... ============================================================== Now, does the prosecutor table a charge against Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo, or just continue to argue that because there is so much evidence of violence then Ruto and Sang are guilty? That, Mank, is the million dollar question. Does the OTP really have a link of the violence to Ruto & Sang? Karim Kahn is chomping at the bit to tear down this witness's testimony & given his insistence that the judge read the riot act (warning of dire consequences for giving false evidence) to her, an act Osuji didn't want to do at the opening of the proceedings but ended up doing after the first break (having thought better of it or having been advised by his fellow judges that it's the best course of action) one has to wonder just what he has on her. On a separate note, the translators at the ICC have proven to be rather horrible at their work. Being non Kenyan, quite a lot of the Swahili is being lost in the translation as it were. Nderitu was the first to complain followed by Katwa Kigen. How a jerry can became a calabash and a gourd while khaki shorts became leaves simply boggles the mind. Let's hope Kahn's insistence that any discrepancies in translation be brought up daily & shared amongst the various parties so that they can later be added to the official translation(s). So far the process, with the time lag in translations & numerous private sessions. has proved to be humdrum. It may take 90 years to go through all the witnesses at the rate they are proceeding...
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Post by mank on Sept 18, 2013 7:59:23 GMT 3
ICC witness names Kiambaa church attackersNAIROBI, Kenya, Sept 17 – Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo and an unknown male identified as ‘Brown,’ on account of his light skin colour, were adversely mentioned when the ICC prosecution’s first witness took to the stand on Tuesday. The witness known only as P0536 to protect her identity was overcome with emotion as she recounted the roles the four individuals played in the torching and subsequent murder of those who had sought refuge at the Kenya Assemblies of God church in Kiambaa on January 1, 2008. She accused Chemalang’ of leading about 3,000 youths covered in white chalk to the church compound with machetes, bows and arrows in tow. “Chemelang’ himself was wearing khaki trousers and a bandana on his head, I saw him through a crack in the church window with a blue jerrycan in his hand. He poured the contents of the jerrycan, petrol, onto one of our mattresses and threw it onto the roof of the church in which we were hiding,” she recounted. The witness said she was one of 2,000, mainly mothers and children, who had sought safety in the confines of the modest church constructed using wood, mud and corrugated iron sheets. .... ============================================================== Now, does the prosecutor table a charge against Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo, or just continue to argue that because there is so much evidence of violence then Ruto and Sang are guilty? That, Mank, is the million dollar question. Does the OTP really have a link of the violence to Ruto & Sang? Karim Kahn is chomping at the bit to tear down this witness's testimony & given his insistence that the judge read the riot act (warning of dire consequences for giving false evidence) to her, an act Osuji didn't want to do at the opening of the proceedings but ended up doing after the first break (having thought better of it or having been advised by his fellow judges that it's the best course of action) one has to wonder just what he has on her. On a separate note, the translators at the ICC have proven to be rather horrible at their work. Being non Kenyan, quite a lot of the Swahili is being lost in the translation as it were. Nderitu was the first to complain followed by Katwa Kigen. How a jerry can became a calabash and a gourd while khaki shorts became leaves simply boggles the mind. Let's hope Kahn's insistence that any discrepancies in translation be brought up daily & shared amongst the various parties so that they can later be added to the official translation(s). So far the process, with the time lag in translations & numerous private sessions. has proved to be humdrum. It may take 90 years to go through all the witnesses at the rate they are proceeding... B6K,Except for the things I have found in the papers, among them the very significant witness naming of the Kiambaa church arsonist leaders, I am in the dark with regard to what transpired at the court on Tuesday. I look forward to catching up; perhaps on Thursday. My thinking is that this is the time Kenya needs to get serious and try to deliver to the fullest ... since ICC does not really have ropes to pull against Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo and the rest of the bull, Kenya would be lighting a bulb here if she offered to start a parallel case against all those mentioned, starting with these 3 irritations - but not just to offer to start, but to start and prosecute thoroughly, with the victims of the violence in mind - especially those victims that are also witness and that know who did the torching! I think ICC would be impressed.
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Post by kamalet on Sept 18, 2013 9:43:41 GMT 3
Except for the things I have found in the papers, among them the very significant witness naming of the Kiambaa church arsonist leaders, I am in the dark with regard to what transpired at the court on Tuesday. I look forward to catching up; perhaps on Thursday. My thinking is that this is the time Kenya needs to get serious and try to deliver to the fullest ... since ICC does not really have ropes to pull against Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo and the rest of the bull, Kenya would be lighting a bulb here if she offered to start a parallel case against all those mentioned, starting with these 3 irritations - but not just to offer to start, but to start and prosecute thoroughly, with the victims of the violence in mind - especially those victims that are also witness and that know who did the torching! I think ICC would be impressed. MankWhen Khan was insisting on the witness to be reminded out the consequences of lying I wondered what he had up his sleeve. As you might be aware, the internet was awash with the name of the witness and one blog even had a photo alleging it was of the woman. The people she named were actually the Kiambaa 4 that were acquitted of the charge of burning the church with the judge saying that it was police incompetence that lost the case for the victims. In fact Chemalang' was confirmed by prosecution witnesses of having helped people that were being burnt. The key prosecution witnesss then PW4 is alleged to be the same witness 0536 at the Hague who lied to court in revenge for Chemalang having sacked her from his campaign team and refusing to help here relatives who were in distress. Now if it turns out that 0536 and PW4 in the Kiambaa 4 case is the same person, she should be preparing to cool her heels in jail for perjury. In the meantime a fifth witness due in the Hague this week withdrew from the case.
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jkm
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Post by jkm on Sept 18, 2013 14:46:54 GMT 3
Just copied below, in verbatim, from the star newspaper to remind the Jubilee propagandist, on Jukwaa and elsewhere, what the ICC case is all about.
She said the attackers doused the mattresses placed against the church walls with petrol before setting them alight. Leting then threw the empty jerrican on the roof of the church. "Everyone inside tried to get some way out there. It was very difficult," the witness said. At the church door Kalenjin youths blocked those who attempted to run out of the burning church. She said the youths were armed with clubs, big sticks, arrows and axes. She managed to escape but almost went mad when she heard fleeing children being thrown back to die in the blaze. As she ran, she saw an old man hacked to death with an axe. She saw another woman whom she knew being raped. "Its difficult to tell but I will tell because that's a woman I knew. She was struck by an axe. She was raped.... I lost it then," she told the court. The witness claimed she saw other people being axed and speared outside the church. She said she saw Brown strike a man she knew who was then speared and slashed. The witness presented a sketch of where the man was hiding before he was fished out by Brown and his accomplices. She said many people who took refuge in the church had used bicycles to ferry their families there. Photos of the burnt bicycles piled on one side of the church were also presented. "I removed all my clothes and was left entirely naked. I did this to scare off the youths. In Kalenjin culture it's a curse when a woman strips naked in front of young men. I wanted to save my brother's life," she told the court. The witness said Brown then threw the seriously injured man to her telling her to "take that trash." He had an arrow lodged in his head and he had been nearly decapitated. "He took a few steps and then fell to the ground," she said. She then dragged the man through forest trails to a nearby tarmac road.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 20:14:48 GMT 3
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Post by abdulmote on Sept 18, 2013 21:18:26 GMT 3
Watch a real 'Politician' speak! Have a look at Amina Mohamed (Kenya's FM) in the video clip within: Not Guilty!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Sept 19, 2013 1:08:20 GMT 3
Whomever characterized this court as a Kangaroo Court (must have been Mank) must have known exactly how it operates.
The prosecution after hitting a brick wall with its witnesses, it is now calling for blanket trials in total darkness. It has not escaped any keen observer that the OTP in a very desperate last minute effort is recruiting new witnesses whose evidence has not been scrutinized and measures made to protect their identity. This is how and why the first witness' identity could be told only a sentence into her testimony.
Instead of OTP owning up to its failings, it is trying to transfer blame to Kenya's parliament and Kenyans at large, and to a very large extend to the accused. Kenya's parliament is an independent institution which does not answer to any court. Its mandate is to make laws for the good of Kenya and its citizens. In so doing, it needs not make any reference to anyone To therefore drag it into the ICC proceedings is to simply buy time by an OTP that is obviously clueless.
Many who can remember the then prosecutor Moreno Ocampo's declaration that the Kenyan cases would serve as an example to the rest of the world may want to know what he exactly meant. Did he mean an example as in how to frame someone, try them in darkness and pass a verdict behind dark-drawn curtains or how not to be fair?
The truth is, the OTP has failed not only to independently investigate and identify credible witnesses, but to also protect those they already have so as to allow the court proceedings to be carried out in the manner prescribed by the law. Shifting blame will not wash. Njakip's trial continues.
~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 2:32:52 GMT 3
Are the MPs hanging @ the Hague, making ludicrous comments continually helping the Ruto and Sang cases? I didn't think so. And just like the proposed local tribunal, lots of people told them so. Told them that it wasn't a wise strategy. But did they listen? Hardly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 2:40:49 GMT 3
Watch a real 'Politician' speak! Have a look at Amina Mohamed (Kenya's FM) in the video clip within: Not Guilty!Can't open the video outside UK. Would have wanted to see Amina Mohamed carrying on about how she's sure that all in the Kenya Case are innocent. What happened to due process? That's what her boss is getting.
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Post by merkeju on Sept 19, 2013 6:04:16 GMT 3
Except for the things I have found in the papers, among them the very significant witness naming of the Kiambaa church arsonist leaders, I am in the dark with regard to what transpired at the court on Tuesday. I look forward to catching up; perhaps on Thursday. My thinking is that this is the time Kenya needs to get serious and try to deliver to the fullest ... since ICC does not really have ropes to pull against Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo and the rest of the bull, Kenya would be lighting a bulb here if she offered to start a parallel case against all those mentioned, starting with these 3 irritations - but not just to offer to start, but to start and prosecute thoroughly, with the victims of the violence in mind - especially those victims that are also witness and that know who did the torching! I think ICC would be impressed. MankWhen Khan was insisting on the witness to be reminded out the consequences of lying I wondered what he had up his sleeve. As you might be aware, the internet was awash with the name of the witness and one blog even had a photo alleging it was of the woman. The people she named were actually the Kiambaa 4 that were acquitted of the charge of burning the church with the judge saying that it was police incompetence that lost the case for the victims. In fact Chemalang' was confirmed by prosecution witnesses of having helped people that were being burnt. The key prosecution witnesss then PW4 is alleged to be the same witness 0536 at the Hague who lied to court in revenge for Chemalang having sacked her from his campaign team and refusing to help here relatives who were in distress.Now if it turns out that 0536 and PW4 in the Kiambaa 4 case is the same person, she should be preparing to cool her heels in jail for perjury. In the meantime a fifth witness due in the Hague this week withdrew from the case. Kamalet I can not believe how insensitive you are,if you are a kikuyu in particular and you hear the sad story of what happened that day, for sure i will be destroyed inside, it doesn't matter if you have decided all the witness that the prosecutor will produce are lying but one thing will remain true forever, over 35 kikuyus were burnt to death in a church of God, they had gone there for safety thinking that their attackers were christian enough not to harm them in the house of God, but those who attacked didn't care about God, they just wanted all of them dead, you were not in that church, you did not loose your brother, sister, child, uncle or anyone important in your life during that time to realize that, even if you call all the witness lairs the truth is the burning took place, there were survivors and there were those who burnt them. So give me a break and stop cheap talk, did it ever cross your mind that Ruto is really guilty?, and when you said Chemalang was confirmed by witnesses that he help those who were burning, at what time did he do that, when he had burned them already?, he also claims he was away that day, so which is true. In his defence, Mr Chamalan said a witness had framed him because she was bitter after he dismissed her from his campaign team. He vied for Ngeria Ward seat in the 2007 General Election. “Ngeria, which hosts Kiambaa church, is my political stronghold. How then could I burn the very people on whose doors I had been knocking in search of votes?” he asked the court. He said he heard of the Kiambaa fire, which consumed 35 lives, on radio while he was away. Mr Chamalan dismissed the evidence of the witness, saying, she wanted to get back at him because she had called him on December 31, 2007 asking him to go and rescue her parents in Kimuli, but he refused. He did not expound to the court why he refused to go rescue the witness’s parents. www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Man-named-by--witness-was-freed--on-murder-charge-/-/1064/1997166/-/13qat1y/-/index.html
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Post by mank on Sept 19, 2013 6:06:00 GMT 3
Except for the things I have found in the papers, among them the very significant witness naming of the Kiambaa church arsonist leaders, I am in the dark with regard to what transpired at the court on Tuesday. I look forward to catching up; perhaps on Thursday. My thinking is that this is the time Kenya needs to get serious and try to deliver to the fullest ... since ICC does not really have ropes to pull against Stephen Chemalang’, Emmanuel Bull, Kimepo and the rest of the bull, Kenya would be lighting a bulb here if she offered to start a parallel case against all those mentioned, starting with these 3 irritations - but not just to offer to start, but to start and prosecute thoroughly, with the victims of the violence in mind - especially those victims that are also witness and that know who did the torching! I think ICC would be impressed. MankWhen Khan was insisting on the witness to be reminded out the consequences of lying I wondered what he had up his sleeve. As you might be aware, the internet was awash with the name of the witness and one blog even had a photo alleging it was of the woman. The people she named were actually the Kiambaa 4 that were acquitted of the charge of burning the church with the judge saying that it was police incompetence that lost the case for the victims. In fact Chemalang' was confirmed by prosecution witnesses of having helped people that were being burnt. The key prosecution witnesss then PW4 is alleged to be the same witness 0536 at the Hague who lied to court in revenge for Chemalang having sacked her from his campaign team and refusing to help here relatives who were in distress. Now if it turns out that 0536 and PW4 in the Kiambaa 4 case is the same person, she should be preparing to cool her heels in jail for perjury. In the meantime a fifth witness due in the Hague this week withdrew from the case. Kamale, I was not aware of this PW4 - except for a mention in our discussions here, once, being possibly a character like that of OTP4. Anyway, that's a subject we better not discuss further not to risk contravening the court's warning. I have just read a story of the truck mechanic who claims that the fuel used to torch the church came from the truck he was repairing. Now, hopefully this court has a way of validating the allegations of the driver and of the woman, and determining whether the arsonists being identified by the two are the same. This seems necessary, if the mission is to dig out the truth. At the very least I would hope that the prosecution can demand that the court will require the adversely mentioned folks to present themselves before the court - this stuff is getting thick!
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Post by mank on Sept 19, 2013 6:21:35 GMT 3
Watch a real 'Politician' speak! Have a look at Amina Mohamed (Kenya's FM) in the video clip within: Not Guilty!Can't open the video outside UK. Would have wanted to see Amina Mohamed carrying on about how she's sure that all in the Kenya Case are innocent. What happened to due process? That's what her boss is getting. Find the clip here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24151392
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Post by mank on Sept 19, 2013 6:51:28 GMT 3
MankWhen Khan was insisting on the witness to be reminded out the consequences of lying I wondered what he had up his sleeve. ... Kamale, I am listening to a clip of the stink raised by Khan I think that's a lawyer earning his keep. Ruto should be sure he has a fighter on his side. ... oh my, the guy is persistent! Oh well, he probably knows something more than is apparent on the outset. We'll see.
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Post by mank on Sept 19, 2013 7:32:42 GMT 3
... On a separate note, the translators at the ICC have proven to be rather horrible at their work. ... Question: Where did the people who were there that morning spend the night before? Swahili response: Tulikuwa na wakongwe, kwa hivyo tuliwaachia wakongwe kanisa .... Translation: We had some courageous people .... Hawangepata mkalimani maarufu kweli? I must wonder if some things the translator said actually came from the witness ... like "I had gone to a feast before going to the church." Even the Nigerian judge independently picked on the indipendence of the translator from the speaker, noting that the translator started talking before the speaker was done.
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