|
Post by gemagema on Apr 6, 2011 22:39:39 GMT 3
I doubt the Uhuru park rally wil be fiery and inflammatory like the pre-Hague prayer rallies have been like. With the new gag, if granted by the judges, akina Uhuru and Ruto will actually have nothing to talk about. Ok, they can talk about RAO lakini bila mention of ICC. Actually I foresee a scenario whereby this uhuru park gig won't be a kicker. The Ocampo 6 will come back so deflated and confused, hawatakuwa na pumzi ya siasa.
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 6, 2011 22:49:35 GMT 3
I request the civil society lawyers - in their submision for the yet-to-be-convened admissibility challenge hearing - to catalogue to the ICC Judges, the rolling wheels of impunity, that intimidate and threaten potential witnesses through mass tribal rallies. Even before Ocampo's ink requesting tougher conditions has not dried, the suspects have unveiled a new public platform at Uhuru park on Sunday, where the coded and veiled sabre-rattling and intimidation of witnesses continues. Aren't some of these suspects (save for Ali and Kosgey) openly courting arrest warrants? Job & othersI didn't know you folks had posted the story on tighter conditions so I just posted it on another thread. But here are a few interesting things. So far the story in the nation only talked about the Muthaura, Uhuru, Ali, group. I am sure there will be additional conditions for all. Here are some things of note. 1. The suspects have now been asked to submit a complete list of assets and warned that any attempt to lie about the assets they own is a breach of the conditions of bail and will lead to arrest warrants. That is a very tough call particularly on Uhuru and Ruto. These guys lie about everything, it is their profession. They are also known to have in their possession tons of stolen wealth. Now what do they do? They do not know what Ocampo has already tracked down. Ocampo is now telling them, you tell me what you own and Ocampo has his own list as we speak. 2. The mass rallies of ethnic incitement and threats to anybody who does not follow the two big Ocampo two has definitely bothered Ocampo. He has understood it exactly for what it is. A threat to anybody and to the whole country that either we worship the kings of impunity or else..... 3. The suspects have now realized that is is one thing to yell obscenities and threats in rallies held to incite people and another thing to face Ocampo and the ICC. There are no cheering crowds. No rent a liar set of speakers, no line up of pastors profusely blessing suspected killers. No Raila to froth in the mouth about. It is just international law and you. It is pretty cold stuff. 4. Ocampo has very rightly understood that the obscene lies being generated by the suspects to the effect that the ICC is a political court and that Ocampo and the entire ICC process is an attempt against specific politicians by other Kenyan political figures is not only flagrant falsehood but is also an attempt to tell their supporters to help them stop the process or else if they fail deal with those responsible. 5. The one very scary thing going through the minds of the suspects and their lawyers who are not even allowed to open their mouths in the court at this stage is that all that madness in the last two weeks has really complicated things for them. Also the PTC II judges can opt for even tougher measures than Ocampo will ask for. Nobody knows what they will decide. 6. In terms of presentations to the ICC in view of the Admissibility challenge. The ruling yesterday by the PTC II judges was that they will accept written submissions from all parties including representatives of the victims and the statements have to be submitted by April 28, 2011. I will touch base with my civil society friends to see where things are. 7. In the Admissibility hearings I think civil society groups will apply for representation. SO FAR SO GOOD. That is all I can say.
|
|
|
Post by phil on Apr 6, 2011 22:59:08 GMT 3
|
|
|
Post by commes on Apr 6, 2011 23:00:47 GMT 3
I doubt the Uhuru park rally wil be fiery and inflammatory like the pre-Hague prayer rallies have been like. With the new gag, if granted by the judges, akina Uhuru and Ruto will actually have nothing to talk about. Ok, they can talk about RAO lakini bila mention of ICC. Actually I foresee a scenario whereby this uhuru park gig won't be a kicker. The Ocampo 6 will come back so deflated and confused, hawatakuwa na pumzi ya siasa. gemagema I almost laughed when I heard that Samoei Ruto has gone to the Hague to slay the ICC dragon. I bet when he is back there will be no more monsters to scare future criminals of crimes against humanity. www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/Kenyanews/Ruto%3A-I-will-slay-the-ICC-dragon-12311.htmlHowever, an outsider, with a fresh pair of eyes thinks otherwise. It is the masterminds of the post-election violence who must face justice to slay the dragon of impunity. “We cannot continue to flout the rule of law and accountability. If the culture of impunity is not acted upon, then it will ultimately bring down the whole society. It must be stopped,” Mr Kouassi, a senior legal adviser and spokesman for the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, said on Wednesday. “To prevent perpetrators of violence from coming back to commit other atrocities, they should not remain unpunished,” added Prof Czaplinski, who is in the country to lobby Kenya to support his candidature as a judge of the International Criminal Court. The Polish judge, however, said Kenya still had a window to establish a credible mechanism to try the suspects. “I could imagine that there is some possible solution to this issue. But for this to work out, it must be preceded by political will by the country’s leadership,” he said. The judge said the ICC process was not meant to punish Kenya, but “it is the only court that will guarantee a fair justice process for the accused.” The two legal experts however expressed disappointment over the fact that three years after the post-election violence, no credible mechanism had been set up to try suspects. Mr Czaplinski said pulling out of the Rome Statute was “the worst thing” Kenya could do. He said African states should play their part in ensuring that they strengthened the Rome Statute, which upholds respect for the rule of law. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Punishing+organisers+of+poll+chaos+will+curb+impunity+/-/1064/1140260/-/c4g3vb/-/index.html
|
|
|
Post by mzee on Apr 6, 2011 23:03:53 GMT 3
I think that the wild weekend rallies prior to the Hague was a blessing in disguise. Perhaps they convinced Ocampo that he was dealing with people without a conscience. He saw his witnesses overtly and covertly intimidated. He wants to make sure that the suspected criminals are put on notice. So they can have as many rallies as they wish but they Will never know what ocampo Will consider a threat which will lead to their arrest. I think that the big boys are in a pickle. Let the games begin.
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 6, 2011 23:16:20 GMT 3
phil,Yes I will. I know miguna is at The Hague. Miguna announced to the whole country he will go to The Hague. I don't know about Salim. In my view they are there in their personal capacities as Kenyans and also as people interested in the Hague process and justice for both victims and suspects in Kenya. I see nothing wrong with that. I know for a fact that no limousine was sent to receive Miguna from the airport. He is just a regular guy down there. Kina Livondo were received with limos from the embassy and whisked away. So after the two big days I will file Miguna's stories from The Hague. I already have one. Stay tuned.
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Apr 6, 2011 23:17:32 GMT 3
Ruto is a very daring spinner. Now he is wondering why if he is guilty, he is not being charged in the Kenyan courts of law. He conveniently forgets that he himself VOTED AGAINST a local STK tribunal and chanted Hague, Hague Hague. Well, the say, be careful what you ask for, you may just get it! Karma is so beautiful it comes back to bite them in the a$$ They will be required to go to the Hague every 6 months! kie kie kie, I am loving this!! With time their persona will be reduced to that of a "hague thug", they will carry very little sway so long as that sword of Damocles being wielded by Ocampo is swaying dangerously over their heads.
|
|
|
Post by akinyi2005 on Apr 6, 2011 23:31:52 GMT 3
jeez if livondo was received in a limo the king and his running mate and kina wako must be moving around in a private plane escorted by fighter jets. i think the joy riders will soon realize that limos aside, time is fast approaching to start jostling for the 50 seats in the public gallery with journalists, lawyers, etc. come to think of it will they keep up with the show every six months?
|
|
|
Post by politicalmaniac on Apr 6, 2011 23:43:23 GMT 3
come to think of it will they keep up with the show every six months? Isnt that something? that jomo jnr and ruto will be undergoing this dehumanizing charade every six months mpaka the process ends - hopefully with conviction for them? I personally dont see them adhering to that schedule and I am waiting for them to bail out. I hope they prove me wrong, but with the mafiya, expect the unexpected.
|
|
|
Post by shifta on Apr 7, 2011 0:55:25 GMT 3
...things are ndovu..we! Kosgey seesm to be the only cool head in the lot.
|
|
|
Post by commes on Apr 7, 2011 11:09:00 GMT 3
|
|
|
Post by wuorkiir on Apr 7, 2011 11:43:00 GMT 3
At this rate, I am afraid brother William Ruto is increasely becoming a train wreck in the making. As a Sudanese, and a Dinka in particular, I used to take pride in the courageous disposition of my Luo and Kalenjin cousins in Kenya, but it is beginning to appear like Bwana Ruto is taking "courage" to a different level. In today's appearance, Ruto came across as snobbish, arrogant and almost contemptuous. This is not going to be good for him if he keeps it up. WuorKiir
|
|
|
Post by kaburwo on Apr 7, 2011 11:45:22 GMT 3
No more hate speech. What does that mean for the Uhuru Park mock rally?
|
|
|
Post by nowayhaha on Apr 7, 2011 11:49:41 GMT 3
11: 40 The Judge thanks the parties for conducting themselves professionally and calls to a close the initial appearance of Ruto, Kosgey and Sang.
11: 38 Judge Trendafilova tells the registry to make arrangements for the status conference at 9am on April 18.
11:36 She says ten days will be enough to provide this information.
11: 34 Defence invited to indicate whether they intend to provide rebuttal documents and if they will call witnesses.
11: 33 At the conference, she says the prosecutor should make available an estimate of overall amount of documents he wants to use in the confirmation hearing, witnesses he intends to call and their statements.
11: 31 Judge Trendafilova says a status conference would be necessary on April 18 and the prosecutor, defence and registry are welcome but and informs the suspects they need not appear.
11: 30 Mr Hooper for Ruto says he has just been informed of the confirmation date and requests if it can be brought forward but the Judge tells him it is beneficial to his client.
11: 27 Prosecutor Moreno-Ocampo says he request full disclosure.
11:26 Judge says it has set September 1 as date of confirmation of charges hearing, but she says the date may be subject to change.
11: 24 She says if Chamber satisfied with evidence it will set a trial date.
11: 23 Judge: You will have adequate time to prepare your defence, no undue delay to be prosecuted if case goes to trial.
11: 22 Judge Trendafilova tells the suspects they are innocent until proven guilty , the right to access material incriminating them, right to rebut the charges.
11: 20 Mr Kosgey and Mr Sang say they have been informed of their rights, but Sang claims one has been broken.
11:19 Mr Ruto says his lawyers have had occasion to inform him of his rights and again protests his innocence.
11:17 The judge asks the suspects if they have been informed of their rights.
11: 15 Mr Sang says he had been informed of the charges.
11: 13 Mr Kosgey says that he has been "sufficiently informed" but the details of the crimes have not been provided to him.
11:10 The Judge tells Mr Ruto that he is represented by able lawyers and that he will have an opportunity to raise his arguments.
11: 08 Mr Ruto says the charges read like a movie script.
11: 06 Mr Ruto says he has been "sufficiently informed" of his alleged crimes and says that he has made a prior but unsuccessful move to rebut the charges at The Hague.
|
|
|
Post by phil on Apr 7, 2011 11:55:11 GMT 3
No more hate speech. What does that mean for the Uhuru Park mock rally? Kaburwo
That warning was very timely. To me, the continuous road shows by Ruto and Uhuru only serve to strengthen the case for the prosecution. Bad mistake, Ruto's mindset appears stuck in Kenya's politics and corrupt judiciary. He forgets that is the ICC platform. He was very contemptuous of the pre-trial judges. I have a feeling his charges will be confirmed. The calmness of Kosgey and Sang while the dock have made William Ruto look amateurish and extremely childish. ICC is not Raila. I wish brother Sadik would tell him that just as he seems to have advised Kosgey and Sang.
|
|
|
Post by wuorkiir on Apr 7, 2011 12:02:41 GMT 3
The number of time the Judge has had to ask Ruto to sit down is troubling, if you asked me. Don't you think so? I mean the other men were able to communicate their reservations without necessarily drawing the attention of the Judge. Me think so!
WuorKiir
|
|
|
Post by job on Apr 7, 2011 12:03:33 GMT 3
Few observations:
1) Ruto needs to tone down his belligerent attitude for his own benefit, mark these words. Testing the patience of Judges and the OTP isn't quite helpful. But then, may be Ruto is just being Ruto - that's who he is....check (4) below.
2) Mr Hooper, Ruto's lead counsel, requested if the Sept. 1st confirmation hearing can be brought forward but the Judge declined. Ruto will have to bear with the long psychological time-drag.
3) Judge Ekaterina Trendafilova, clearly in response to Ocampo, warned the suspects that some of their statements in public may be construed as carrying out crimes - & may substitute summonses with warrants of arrest. This is technically a gag-order on the suspects. They can't liberally continue with their ethnic incitement sprees - unless they want to get arrested.
4) As countdown to April 18th and September 1st starts, I sense we shall be seeing dramatic intrigues. Ocampo's request to hang onto evidence until after the admissibility challenge is dispensed with, was rejected by Judge Trendafilova. How will Ruto handle the knowledge of such information? Will he run to announce it to rallies (showing contempt of court)? Will his allies start talking about them publicly - hence endangering witnesses? And what will be the consequence. Watch this space.
5) I suspect the admissibility challenge will be thrown out, in as much as the Jurisdiction challenge on a 2-1 majority vote. This case will likely go on till confirmation where I suspect 1 or 2 may be exonerrated...leaving few behind the dock.
|
|
|
Post by dola121945 on Apr 7, 2011 12:53:19 GMT 3
It is not a joke, this morning session was clearly a cringing session. And watching the arrogance being exhibited by Ruto and Sang, mostly ruto was abit shocking. This is not a court that he has been to before, the session started by the Presiding judge telling them they need to keep time, a bit of a talking down it seemed. And just the fact that they were there to confirm their identity and to clarify that they are aware of the accusations agains them was interesting, their rights were also read to them and the process/procedure of the court.
I think that they should proceed cautiously and wisely, only Kosgey seemed to be level headed and aware of what is going on.
Mambo bado ... ICC is another kettle of fish. Let's wait and watch tomorrow's session it is going to be another show of really what is going on in their minds but hidden because of the sort of bravado they exhibited during those so called 'prayer rallies'.
Things are thick jameni, now we await tomorrow, April 18th and the biggie, September 1st, 2011.
And another thing, the ignorance, arrogance and stupidy being exhibited by the 'honourable members' after the hearings were done was totally unnecessary, using the National Anthem to show solidairy with the O-6, they maybe need to read word for word what our National Anthem stands for, just not for willy nilly type of shows ! I was abit offended.
Let's wait for tomorrow !
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Apr 7, 2011 13:12:20 GMT 3
What is all this fear about the ICC and warning about arrogance etc? Anyone who has seen transcripts of previous ICC hearings will show that the courts like any other will be demanding of respect, but do not necessarily instil fear in the people appearing before them.....neither is much respect shown to the OTP!
Am not condoning Ruto's or even Sang's behaviour.....
|
|
|
Post by okolowaka on Apr 7, 2011 15:55:57 GMT 3
The character exhibited by Ruto shows a man not used to observing rules and regulations, or observing order and decorum.
Everyone knew today was just a procedural check of ID and to check that the suspects are of sound mind, it seems everyone but Ruto knew this...
Today was just a preview of the Vioja Mahakamani show that this will turn out to be ;D ;D ;D...
Court: Mshatakiwa majina yako kamili? Ruto: Sikubali , sikubali, Oooh...hii ni senema, Oooh...uliza pentagon, Oooh...hii ni njama, Oooh..., Oooh....
Court: Mshtakiwa, leo sio siku ya kujibu mashtaka, utakuwa na nafasi siku itakayotengwa. Haya, jibu swali, umeelezewa haki zako na hakimu mkuu? Ruto : Kenya iko huru, oooh...sisi ni Kapenguria six, Oooh.... 2012, Oooh...
I bet in the near future we will witness Ruto giving the classical Vioja Mahakamani defense of being nowhere near anything regarding matters before the court... Ruto :"Naaani?...uliniona?...saa ngaaapi?...wewe nani wacha mchezo yako, uliniona?" ;D ;D ;D
How about them 40 clowns traveling 10,000 miles just to witness Ruto confirming that he is indeed Ruto ;D ;D ;D...
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Apr 7, 2011 16:04:06 GMT 3
The character exhibited by Ruto shows a man not used to observing rules and regulations, or observing order and decorum. Everyone knew today was just a procedural check of ID and to check that the suspects are of sound mind, it seems everyone but Ruto knew this... Today was just a preview of the Vioja Mahakamani show that this will turn out to be ;D ;D ;D... Court: Mshatakiwa majina yako kamili? Ruto: Sikubali , sikubali, Oooh...hii ni senema, Oooh...uliza pentagon, Oooh...hii ni njama, Oooh..., Oooh.... Court: Mshtakiwa, leo sio siku ya kujibu mashtaka, utakuwa na nafasi siku itakayotengwa. Haya, jibu swali, umeelezewa haki zako na hakimu mkuu? Ruto : Kenya iko huru, oooh...sisi ni Kapenguria six, Oooh.... 2012, Oooh... I bet in the near future we will witness Ruto giving the classical Vioja Mahakamani defense of being nowhere near anything regarding matters before the court... Ruto :"Naaani?...uliniona?...saa ngaaapi?...wewe nani wacha mchezo yako, uliniona?" ;D ;D ;D How about them 40 clowns traveling 10,000 miles just to witness Ruto confirming that he is indeed Ruto ;D ;D ;D... But for the humour here ;D ;D - Ruto will only speak in court again to answer a question. His lawyers will be speaking for him.
|
|
|
Post by mzee on Apr 7, 2011 16:39:51 GMT 3
End the hate apeeches or else... arrest warrant. As I said before, the hate speeches prior to the Hague were a blessing in disguise. It made the whole country and the ICC realise that they were dealing with complete lunatics. The ICC had to do something. Stop the hatemongers on their tracks. During the hearing, the Presiding Judge also stressed that: "It came to the knowledge of the Chamber by way of following some articles in the Kenyan newspapers that there are some movements towards retriggering the violence in the country by way of using some dangerous speeches. I would like to remind the suspects - and I'm not referring to anyone in particular but this is a general point to be made to all the suspects - that such type of action could be perceived as a sort of inducement which may constitute the breach of one of the conditions set out in the summonses to appear, namely, to continue committing crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court. Accordingly, this might prompt the Chamber to replace the summonses to appear with warrants of arrest (…).www.icc-cpi.int/NR/exeres/F5ADDE2B-A126-4A58-AA76-BC3F9F42A897.htmAnother important thing is that the ICC reserves the right to interpret what is hateful. So the suspects might go straight to Uhuru park from the airport but they wont know what part of their speech that might offend the ICC. The more rallies they hold the more likely they are to be arrested for hateful speeches. This also means that they dont have to actually say the hateful stuff themselves. Its enough for the anyone at the rallies to spew hate and kaboom they end up behind bars. Hate speech including insulting the PM and other tribes is now a dangerous territory. The gag order is a blanket as blanket can be.
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Apr 7, 2011 16:51:20 GMT 3
End of hate apeeches or else... arrest warrant. As I said before, the hatefull speeches prior to the Hague were a blessing in disguise. I like this:- During the hearing, the Presiding Judge also stressed that: "It came to the knowledge of the Chamber by way of following some articles in the Kenyan newspapers that there are some movements towards retriggering the violence in the country by way of using some dangerous speeches. I would like to remind the suspects - and I'm not referring to anyone in particular but this is a general point to be made to all the suspects - that such type of action could be perceived as a sort of inducement which may constitute the breach of one of the conditions set out in the summonses to appear, namely, to continue committing crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court. Accordingly, this might prompt the Chamber to replace the summonses to appear with warrants of arrest (…).Another important thing is that the ICC reserves the right to interprate what is hateful. So the suspects might go straight to Uhuru park from teh airport but they dont know what part of their speech might offend the ICC. The more rallies they hold the more likely they are to be arrested for hateful speeches. This also means that they dont have to actually say the hatefull stuff themselves. Its enough for the anyone in teh rally to spew hate and kaboom they end up behind bars. Hate speech including insulting the PM and other tribes. The gag order is a blanket as blanket can be. MzeeI like that. And here is the link anyway. www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/Kenyanews/ICC-judges-warn-Kenyan-suspects-12342.htmlThe party is over. And this is the judge speaking without any request from the Prosecutor. In the past those judges have even rejected Ocampo's request for summons and replaced them with arrest warrants. Now one more act of incitement and politicisation of the ICC process and lying to provoke public resentment and next time you appear at the Hague bring your own hand cuff. As for Ruto's childish outbursts, the ICC is used to that kind of nonsense. Milosevic abused the judges all day, refused to accept their authority over him, refused to take a plea and yelled and screamed all the time. In the end he was locked up and later found dead in his cell. All that bile may not have been good for his health. Taylor did the same. In fact Taylor's lawyer stormed out of the court claiming this was a politial trial. So the ICC is very much aware of these crude behaviours and they usually don't work very well for the accused. Ruto's lawyers are going to have to tell him to grow up and he has to do it fast. You can't bully your way out of The Hague. I know that is news for the likes of William Ruto but they need to learn very fast or they will face the trial while detained at the Hague. This is not some bogus Kenyans court. heheheheh. So much for that homecoming hate festival.
|
|
|
Post by commes on Apr 7, 2011 16:56:45 GMT 3
End the hate apeeches or else... arrest warrant. As I said before, the hate speeches prior to the Hague were a blessing in disguise. It made the whole country and the ICC realise that they were dealing with complete lunatics. The ICC had to do something. Stop the hatemongers on their tracks. During the hearing, the Presiding Judge also stressed that: "It came to the knowledge of the Chamber by way of following some articles in the Kenyan newspapers that there are some movements towards retriggering the violence in the country by way of using some dangerous speeches. I would like to remind the suspects - and I'm not referring to anyone in particular but this is a general point to be made to all the suspects - that such type of action could be perceived as a sort of inducement which may constitute the breach of one of the conditions set out in the summonses to appear, namely, to continue committing crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court. Accordingly, this might prompt the Chamber to replace the summonses to appear with warrants of arrest (…).Another important thing is that the ICC reserves the right to is to interprate what is hateful. So the suspects might go straight to Uhuru park from the airport but they wont know what part of their speech that might offend the ICC. The more rallies they hold the more likely they are to be arrested for hateful speeches. This also means that they dont have to actually say the hateful stuff themselves. Its enough for the anyone at the rallies to spew hate and kaboom they end up behind bars. Hate speech including insulting the PM and other tribes is now a dangerous terretory. The gag order is a blanket as blanket can be. Not that I am vouching for this man, but Henry Kosgey has publicly carried and conducted himself much better among these 3 ICC suspects. He resigned his position when other charges were brought against him by KACC. Made less noise in public and nuisance. That is how it is meant to be unless he has been operating like an underground mole to the detriment of witnesses. Some of us have access to shot video clips played by the media. ICC must have a dedicated resource that provides them with detailed clips of the on goings. in Kenya.
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Apr 7, 2011 17:06:00 GMT 3
Not that I am vouching for this man, but Henry Kosgey has publicly carried and conducted himself much better among these 3 ICC suspects. He resigned his position when other charges were brought against him by KACC. Made less noise in public and nuisance. That is how it is meant to be unless he has been operating like an underground mole to the detriment of witnesses. Some of us have access to shot video clips played by the media. ICC must have a dedicated resource that provides them with detailed clips of the on goings. in Kenya. The problems for Kosgey are perhaps as bad as those of Sang. Evidence shows a paper trail of money coming to him and leaving his hands to pay known perpetrators. He knows he is in deep ..Sh!t and is better quiet than noisy! Ruto will perhaps get away with it for reasons of lack of conclusive evidence against his person apart from the perception at the time of the violence.
|
|