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Post by b6k on Oct 2, 2011 15:11:38 GMT 3
Phil, I believe the term you are looking for is Independent, not partyless. PNU disappointed by over staying its welcome & ODM disappoints by preaching progressive ideals whilst practicing status quo.
Anyway time to tune in to the big match. Need to know whether Nyayo Stadium & its environs will be a no go zone.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 2, 2011 16:10:02 GMT 3
b6kPray - how does ODM come into this debate? You continue to sound like a broken record with you constant anti-ODM statements, a party which no one has been forced to be a member. What's this obsession you have with ODM? Its a free world and you are free to join any of the many other parties in the country or even start your own perfect party. Hell, you can even stay partyless if you so wish, but for crying out loud, let ODM be! I also wonder how you always want to brand bloggers as ODMers as if membership Jukwaa has a way of determining political affiliations. And why do you always want to make statements that undermine ODM and make it seem like its a capital offense to have any association with this party? Go ahead and start an anti-ODM thread if you may but let this thread discuss and debate the circumnstances sorrounding Mr. Ogolla's murder. As you can see absolutely nothing to do with ODM! Phil Perhaps you would like us to be cryptic when we all know what is being talked about! Do you recall media reporting that members of a community were being attacked by locals during the height of ethnic clashes? The media would not bring itself to say Kikuyus were being murdered by Kalenjins in Kamwaura and Burnt Forest! When B6K actually calls it as it is that people twisting the stories in this case are well known ODM supporters whose agenda is well know and that is to get the O-6 locked up in the Hague to allow the 'chosen one' a free ride! I much prefer the honesty of B6K in calling it as it is and not masking it. Calling prominent Jukwaa contributors ODMers does not mean that this forum is an ODM forum - it is just because the MAJORITY of its members have a love affair with ODM and the likes of yours truly are in the MINORITY!
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Post by mank on Oct 2, 2011 17:09:18 GMT 3
b6k
Pray - how does ODM come into this debate? You continue to sound like a broken record with you constant anti-ODM statements, a party which no one has been forced to be a member. What's this obsession you have with ODM? Its a free world and you are free to join any of the many other parties in the country or even start your own perfect party. Hell, you can even stay partyless if you so wish, but for crying out loud, let ODM be!
I also wonder how you always want to brand bloggers as ODMers as if membership Jukwaa has a way of determining political affiliations. And why do you always want to make statements that undermine ODM and make it seem like its a capital offense to have any association with this party?
Go ahead and start an anti-ODM thread if you may but let this thread discuss and debate the circumnstances sorrounding Mr. Ogolla's murder. As you can see absolutely nothing to do with ODM! Phil
Perhaps you would like us to be cryptic when we all know what is being talked about! Do you recall media reporting that members of a community were being attacked by locals during the height of ethnic clashes? The media would not bring itself to say Kikuyus were being murdered by Kalenjins in Kamwaura and Burnt Forest!
When B6K actually calls it as it is that people twisting the stories in this case are well known ODM supporters whose agenda is well know and that is to get the O-6 locked up in the Hague to allow the 'chosen one' a free ride!
I much prefer the honesty of B6K in calling it as it is and not masking it. Calling prominent Jukwaa contributors ODMers does not mean that this forum is an ODM forum - it is just because the MAJORITY of its members have a love affair with ODM and the likes of yours truly are in the MINORITY!I would even go further than B6K and say that from day one it was ODM preaching " no justice no peace", and this was while we were watching clips of people slashing others like the napier ... as far as I know, they flagged off the violence in all regions outside RV. Then with their propaganda machine (well described by B6K), someone else was interested in, (and responsible for) the violence they advocated for. As they always say, puleeese! Right here on Jukwaa we have the best library to reconstruct the anatomy of the post election violence ... but for now we look up to the dreamy views of the OTP.
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 19:26:22 GMT 3
Phil
Perhaps you would like us to be cryptic when we all know what is being talked about! Do you recall media reporting that members of a community were being attacked by locals during the height of ethnic clashes? The media would not bring itself to say Kikuyus were being murdered by Kalenjins in Kamwaura and Burnt Forest!
When B6K actually calls it as it is that people twisting the stories in this case are well known ODM supporters whose agenda is well know and that is to get the O-6 locked up in the Hague to allow the 'chosen one' a free ride!
I much prefer the honesty of B6K in calling it as it is and not masking it. Calling prominent Jukwaa contributors ODMers does not mean that this forum is an ODM forum - it is just because the MAJORITY of its members have a love affair with ODM and the likes of yours truly are in the MINORITY!I would even go further than B6K and say that from day one it was ODM preaching " no justice no peace", and this was while we were watching clips of people slashing others like the napier ... as far as I know, they flagged off the violence in all regions outside RV. Then with their propaganda machine (well described by B6K), someone else was interested in, (and responsible for) the violence they advocated for. As they always say, puleeese! Right here on Jukwaa we have the best library to reconstruct the anatomy of the post election violence ... but for now we look up to the dreamy views of the OTP. Mank saysFirst off.. mass action demonstrations are legal according to the previous constitution of Kenya, and if citizens were un happy with the rigged elections by Kibaki & Co they had a right to go on the streets to demonstrate.. What is illegal as you put it very clearly above was Kibaki & co giving the police the shoot to Kill order mowing down innocent Kenyans with bullets.. What is illegal is Nguyai & "Boss" using their foot soldiers "Mungiki" to slaughter, burn, behead, while using on some broken bottles to cut off their mmm..off.. and then go to ICC and lie that "I Nguyai did not have Uhuru Kenyatta's Cell Phone number.. Hey it is easy to check OCampo's team or the Judges should subpoena Vodafone/cells service provider all records of Nguyai & uhuru's cell phones from when 2007-2008 clashes started......
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 19:31:51 GMT 3
FACT: Ogolla was shot dead in April 2010. FACT: UK was charged in December 2010. FICTION: UK ordered Ogolla killed 8 months before he was charged because he had foreknowledge that he would be charged. Yikes! Sadly for you 911, UK isn't even at the ICC for Ogolla's death. Try sticking to the facts & comment on the evidence before the court, not the universe as seen through your selectively skewed monocle. FACT - The PT 2 authorised investigations into the Kenyan situation in March 2010 All these FACTS will be irrelevant if in fact Uhuru Kenyatta is the mungiki violence mastermind. He would not need to be charged at the ICC to start eliminating potential witnesses. Just as there was no charge at the ICC when hundreds of extra-judicial killings were sanctioned by the same coterie (another stubborn fact?). It is entirely plausible that this driver knew or saw something and was murdered for it.
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 19:39:01 GMT 3
I would even go further than B6K and say that from day one it was ODM preaching " no justice no peace" Not quite - ODM called for peaceful mass action. Please do your research. ODM called for peace. ODM called for justice. It is very easy for facts to get lost. Having said that peace itself is a multifaceted word and needs to be defined within a context. Not as flippantly as you seem to think of it.
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 19:44:48 GMT 3
Folks, temper your theories with a bit of reality. That way you will better manage your expectations & will be less likely to be disappointed when things at the ICC do not go according to the script as written by the doyens at Orange House.I should be glad to hear what this ICC script from Orange house is b6k? Are you implying the Orange house controls the ICC? Are there Jukwaa members who make policy at Orange house? Your statement is confusing: kindly enlighten us?
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Post by b6k on Oct 2, 2011 19:47:45 GMT 3
Oh RR but you overlook the other fact that came up in Muthaura 's defence. Whatever Ocampo was investigating in connection with the PNU side was done in an underhand manner. That's why Muthaura was so happy to co-operate & walk Ocampo to his car when he knew it was RAO's crowd bearing the brunt of investigations only to be hit with a shocker in December by the "devious" Argentine. Remember the MKM MP's raising hell a day or 2 before December 15th when it finally dawned on them that this Hague thing hit them as well...& pretty high up at that?
In short, these guys didn't know there was an ongoing investigation against them until the 11th hour. So why cover up what you feel you don't need to?
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Post by b6k on Oct 2, 2011 19:51:39 GMT 3
The Orange House ICC script according to the gospel of G7 was that the O6 would fizzle away into retirement as guests of the ICC cells.
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 19:53:41 GMT 3
When B6K actually calls it as it is that people twisting the stories in this case are well known ODM supporters whose agenda is well know and that is to get the O-6 locked up in the Hague to allow the 'chosen one' a free ride! Another thoughtless statement. Not accurate, the info i have is that for all practical purposes ODM is trying to get off some of the Ocampo six. However, clear and recent history that evades the likes of Kamale suggests that some of the Ocampo 6 did the most to send their cases to Europe even in the face of vigorous effort by ODM among others to have a local tribunal. Incidentally, I would argue that it is in the interests of ODM for the presidential contenders among the 'O-6' to come back and 'spilt the votes'. As far as elections go, it is better to have them here; as far as impunity goes it is better to have them there (ssuming guilt, of course)
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 20:01:41 GMT 3
Oh RR but you overlook the other fact that came up in Muthaura 's defence. Whatever Ocampo was investigating in connection with the PNU side was done in an underhand manner. That's why Muthaura was so happy to co-operate & walk Ocampo to his car when he knew it was RAO's crowd bearing the brunt of investigations only to be hit with a shocker in December by the "devious" Argentine. Remember the MKM MP's raising hell a day or 2 before December 15th when it finally dawned on them that this Hague thing hit them as well...& pretty high up at that? In short, these guys didn't know there was an ongoing investigation against them until the 11th hour. So why cover up what you feel you don't need to? I don't overlook it. In fact, I think they assumed that they had eliminated all evidence and that other more obvious 'smaller' suspects would be sacrificed. They must have thought: he dare not! But he did. Way before these cases Uhuru and Ruto were defending themselves in public sphere claiming that the Hague cases will take 99 years. Nobody had even accused them! Even up to the last minute criminals usually believe they will not be nabbed. Its criminal psychology. As you know that has been the history of impunity in Kenya. When JM, Mboya, Ouko and others were murdered, it was always the smaller fish who were targeted and investigated and often there were eliminations of those who connected
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 20:04:04 GMT 3
The Orange House ICC script according to the gospel of G7 was that the O6 would fizzle away into retirement as guests of the ICC cells. Now you clarify, thanks. According to G7.... I thought you were talking of a real Orange house script.
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 20:05:11 GMT 3
Oh RR but you overlook the other fact that came up in Muthaura 's defence. Whatever Ocampo was investigating in connection with the PNU side was done in an underhand manner. That's why Muthaura was so happy to co-operate & walk Ocampo to his car when he knew it was RAO's crowd bearing the brunt of investigations only to be hit with a shocker in December by the "devious" Argentine. Remember the MKM MP's raising hell a day or 2 before December 15th when it finally dawned on them that this Hague thing hit them as well...& pretty high up at that? In short, these guys didn't know there was an ongoing investigation against them until the 11th hour. So why cover up what you feel you don't need to? he he!!he!! and that is why they slaughtered many Mungiki members after they finished their jobs for them in Naivasha & Nakuru " Nguyai statement.. they the mungiki were asking for their money 3million for the job well done from their "boss" Uhuru" Muthaura looking at his record thought he was untouchable " he knows he gave orders for the Mungiki to be allowed to pass through to Naivasha & Nakuru.. and with all the powers vested on him by Kibaki &Co.. he thought he was protected.. and now the truth shall come out.. IT was not about not knowing that some people were to be investigated and would be charged at the ICC, they were arrogant enough and very sure of their cover-up and thought Ocampo would go for their "foot Soldiers the Mungiki" it is like the Mafia chain.. foot soldiers are always caught.. Ocampo was not looking for the foot soldiers! he was looking for the bosses who funded them..
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Post by kamalet on Oct 2, 2011 20:09:31 GMT 3
When B6K actually calls it as it is that people twisting the stories in this case are well known ODM supporters whose agenda is well know and that is to get the O-6 locked up in the Hague to allow the 'chosen one' a free ride! Another thoughtless statement. Not accurate, the info i have is that for all practical purposes ODM is trying to get off some of the Ocampo six. However, clear and recent history that evades the likes of Kamale suggests that some of the Ocampo 6 did the most to send their cases to Europe even in the face of vigorous effort by ODM among others to have a local tribunal. Incidentally, I would argue that it is in the interests of ODM for the presidential contenders among the 'O-6' to come back and 'spilt the votes'. As far as elections go, it is better to have them here; as far as impunity goes it is better to have them there (ssuming guilt, of course) ....I do recall the vigorous efforts of ODM leadership to ensure the O-6 are not arraigned at the Hague. I am sure you recall the letter of support to the UN security council to the Kibaki appeal for the matter to be suspended, as well as the support of ODM to the Wako admissibility challenge! That is how wrong I was
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 20:15:27 GMT 3
I wonder why it is now being said here that is a party Issue? Uhuru Kenyatta, Ruto, Muthaura & Co were charged as individuals for crimes against Humanity at the HAGUE.. They in their individual capacity organized and funded death squads and unleashed them on Innocent Kenyans..
It is not ODM or PNU parties being charged at the HAGUE.. the charges are against the 6 individuals!!period!!
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 20:18:35 GMT 3
Another thoughtless statement. Not accurate, the info i have is that for all practical purposes ODM is trying to get off some of the Ocampo six. However, clear and recent history that evades the likes of Kamale suggests that some of the Ocampo 6 did the most to send their cases to Europe even in the face of vigorous effort by ODM among others to have a local tribunal. Incidentally, I would argue that it is in the interests of ODM for the presidential contenders among the 'O-6' to come back and 'spilt the votes'. As far as elections go, it is better to have them here; as far as impunity goes it is better to have them there (ssuming guilt, of course) ....I do recall the vigorous efforts of ODM leadership to ensure the O-6 are not arraigned at the Hague. I am sure you recall the letter of support to the UN security council to the Kibaki appeal for the matter to be suspended, as well as the support of ODM to the Wako admissibility challenge! That is how wrong I was Let me clear your confusion. ODM was against impunity. They wanted a local but credible process. It was brought to parliament and rejected by Uhuru and Ruto. This was an effort to save the 06 from going to Europe. Faced with the failure to secure a local system, we had to go to the Hague for a credible process. The letter of support came after the local efforts by ODM failed. PNU and its adherents on the other hand wanted neither the ICC not the local process.
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Post by Fahari on Oct 2, 2011 20:32:37 GMT 3
I would even go further than B6K and say that from day one it was ODM preaching " no justice no peace" Not quite - ODM called for peaceful mass action. Please do your research. ODM called for peace. ODM called for justice. It is very easy for facts to get lost. Having said that peace itself is a multifaceted word and needs to be defined within a context. Not as flippantly as you seem to think of it. Im tired of this lopsided debate on whether the mass action called by ODM was peaceful or not. Now, pray do tell what was peaceful about this? I must admit ithis video clearly shows a very peaceful protester waving what could pass for a twig, that closely resembles a machete or is it a white flag? If you notice in this particular video 0.42 someone actually “peacefully” shoots at the police and the police were suppose to stand idly by as a peaceful protester took pot shots at them!! It would be nice if we tried being a little bit more honest with ourselves that's what true reform is all about!
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 20:48:53 GMT 3
Lets stick to the Issue here!! why was Nguyai's driver Ogallo Killed? was it becuase of the Ocampo/ICC investigation that started In MARCH 2010? HE WAS SHOT IN APRIL 2010? Ogolla had just dropped off Nguyai at his home..
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Post by roughrider on Oct 2, 2011 20:52:12 GMT 3
Not quite - ODM called for peaceful mass action. Please do your research. ODM called for peace. ODM called for justice. It is very easy for facts to get lost. Having said that peace itself is a multifaceted word and needs to be defined within a context. Not as flippantly as you seem to think of it. Im tired of this lopsided debate on whether the mass action called by ODM was peaceful or not. Now, pray do tell what was peaceful about this? I must admit ithis video clearly shows a very peaceful protester waving what could pass for a twig, that closely resembles a machete or is it a white flag? It would be nice if we tried being a little bit more honest with ourselves that's what true reform is all about! Please don't eat me alive Ms Fahari. I don't have time to check out your videos right now. I am only stating things as i know and saw them. You can hold your views, however different. FYI - it is mass action that brought democracy to Kenya, it is impunity that caused PEV. As we prepare to bury the heroine Wangari Maathai, let us recall her efforts, usually with mass protest, to bring this country to the next level.
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Post by tactician on Oct 2, 2011 20:54:53 GMT 3
one thing that's guaranteed from this mess:
the 2012 elections will be about pev & ICC.
If Uhuru/Ruto come back - they come back stronger like Jomo from Kapenguria & will return to haunt Raila.
On the other hand, if they are jailed, GEMA & Kamatusa will lay political responsibility on Raila's door.
Either way, Raila is fried.
Little wonder we are hearing of the crisis meetings & the loud silence from his camp.
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Post by nok on Oct 2, 2011 21:03:32 GMT 3
one thing that's guaranteed from this mess: the 2012 elections will be about pev & ICC. If Uhuru/Ruto come back - they come back stronger like Jomo from Kapenguria & will return to haunt Raila. On the other hand, if they are jailed, GEMA & Kamatusa will lay political responsibility on Raila's door. Either way, Raila is fried. Little wonder we are hearing of the crisis meetings & the loud silence from his camp. Good evening Tactician. Do you mind transfering this to the thread handling the consequences of the hearings. That is where it belongs. Thanks in advance.
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Post by tactician on Oct 2, 2011 21:03:52 GMT 3
about this crappy argument that ODM called for peaceful mass action - can anyone please show me WHERE & WHEN there was peaceful mass protests in January/Feb of 2008?
Peaceful mass protest in Nairobi??? All i saw were people invading other peoples houses, looting, raping them, killing them, displacing them.
Peaceful mass protests in Mombasa??? All i saw were break-ins, looting, killings etc
Peaceful mass protests in Eldoret??? All we saw was people shooting others with arrows, burning others in churches, burning houses etc
Peaceful mass protests in Kisumu??? All i saw was looting, burning of property, mass displacement of people etc.
Where is the peaceful mass protests that Raila called for?
I say - someone show me!
Otherwise, we all know that mass protests was just a code word for kill PNU supporters.
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Post by nok on Oct 2, 2011 21:08:54 GMT 3
about this crappy argument that ODM called for peaceful mass action - can anyone please show me WHERE & WHEN there was peaceful mass protests in January/Feb of 2008? Peaceful mass protest in Nairobi??? All i saw were people invading other peoples houses, looting, raping them, killing them, displacing them. Peaceful mass protests in Mombasa??? All i saw were break-ins, looting, killings etc Peaceful mass protests in Eldoret??? All we saw was people shooting others with arrows, burning others in churches, burning houses etc Peaceful mass protests in Kisumu??? All i saw was looting, burning of property, mass displacement of people etc. Where is the peaceful mass protests that Raila called for? I say - someone show me! Otherwise, we all know that mass protests was just a code word for kill PNU supporters. To much aggression in you words. The strength of an argument lies in it's humbleness. That is why I want the trials so badly, so that some form of Truth Justice and maybe Reconciliation can have it's place in this very rotten soceity to which you and I have contributed to.
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 21:17:02 GMT 3
one thing that's guaranteed from this mess: the 2012 elections will be about pev & ICC. If Uhuru/Ruto come back - they come back stronger like Jomo from Kapenguria & will return to haunt Raila. On the other hand, if they are jailed, GEMA & Kamatusa will lay political responsibility on Raila's door. Either way, Raila is fried. Little wonder we are hearing of the crisis meetings & the loud silence from his camp. Now the tribal element has reared its head? why can't people understand it is not about Raila, ODM, PNU e.t.c, it about individuals who made decisions by themselves to unleash killings squads on innocent Kenyans, saying Raila is fried? are the Gema now openly threatening his life? do tell us more!!
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Post by furaha on Oct 2, 2011 21:20:55 GMT 3
about this crappy argument that ODM called for peaceful mass action - can anyone please show me WHERE & WHEN there was peaceful mass protests in January/Feb of 2008? Peaceful mass protest in Nairobi??? All i saw were people invading other peoples houses, looting, raping them, killing them, displacing them. Peaceful mass protests in Mombasa??? All i saw were break-ins, looting, killings etc Peaceful mass protests in Eldoret??? All we saw was people shooting others with arrows, burning others in churches, burning houses etc Peaceful mass protests in Kisumu??? All i saw was looting, burning of property, mass displacement of people etc. Where is the peaceful mass protests that Raila called for? I say - someone show me! Otherwise, we all know that mass protests was just a code word for kill PNU supporters. Tactician, you forget one very important fact: during PEV more than 400 people died as a result of bullet wounds inflicted by the police. This is the documented number quoted in the Waki report. The actual number is probably higher. Yes, mass peaceful protests were called for and they were intended to be peaceful. But the threat of further use of lethal force by the police against peaceful protesters was such that few heeded the call.. The risk to life and limb was simply too high. I remember discussions around this issue in January and February. Furaha
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