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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 21:23:35 GMT 3
about this crappy argument that ODM called for peaceful mass action - can anyone please show me WHERE & WHEN there was peaceful mass protests in January/Feb of 2008? Peaceful mass protest in Nairobi??? All i saw were people invading other peoples houses, looting, raping them, killing them, displacing them. Peaceful mass protests in Mombasa??? All i saw were break-ins, looting, killings etc Peaceful mass protests in Eldoret??? All we saw was people shooting others with arrows, burning others in churches, burning houses etc Peaceful mass protests in Kisumu??? All i saw was looting, burning of property, mass displacement of people etc. Where is the peaceful mass protests that Raila called for? I say - someone show me! Otherwise, we all know that mass protests was just a code word for kill PNU supporters. Maybe the Kenya you saw was on T.V but even so it was police shooting kenyans dead on.. The whole world watched kenyans go to the streets to demonstration the rigged elections, maybe some people wore tinted glasses and only saw what they wanted to see.. Kibaki installed at Statehouse WHO KILLED HIS DRIVER ?AND WHY?Ogallo Nguyai's Driver was gunned down in April 2010after dropping him off.. The investigations called on by ICC/OCampo started in March 2010 is there a connection? me thinks a big connection.. that Ocampo team should follow.. Nguyai's driver having driven him everywhere even to the mungiki fellows at the Jacaranda Hotel, that is the only place Nguyai admitted meeting the Mungiki's. I wonder where else Ogolla the Driver drove him to meet this Mungiki fellow's? and it shall be known.. the truth will come out and Justice shall be served for OGolla!!
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Post by tactician on Oct 2, 2011 21:36:04 GMT 3
about this crappy argument that ODM called for peaceful mass action - can anyone please show me WHERE & WHEN there was peaceful mass protests in January/Feb of 2008? Peaceful mass protest in Nairobi??? All i saw were people invading other peoples houses, looting, raping them, killing them, displacing them. Peaceful mass protests in Mombasa??? All i saw were break-ins, looting, killings etc Peaceful mass protests in Eldoret??? All we saw was people shooting others with arrows, burning others in churches, burning houses etc Peaceful mass protests in Kisumu??? All i saw was looting, burning of property, mass displacement of people etc. Where is the peaceful mass protests that Raila called for? I say - someone show me! Otherwise, we all know that mass protests was just a code word for kill PNU supporters. Tactician, you forget one very important fact: during PEV more than 400 people died as a result of bullet wounds inflicted by the police. This is the documented number quoted in the Waki report. The actual number is probably higher. Yes, mass peaceful protests were called for and they were intended to be peaceful. But the threat of further use of lethal force by the police against peaceful protesters was such that few heeded the call.. The risk to life and limb was simply too high. I remember discussions around this issue in January and February. Furaha agreed, Furaha. So... 1) ODM calls for mass action. 2) ODM followers try mass protests. 3) Police stop the mass action. 4) ODM followers start killing PNU supporters. And we loop back to 1 above. In short, by calling for mass action which ODM knew the repercussions, they knew 4 would happen. agreed, Furaha. So... 1) ODM calls for mass action. 2) ODM followers try mass protests. 3) Police stop the mass action. 4) ODM followers start killing PNU supporters. And we loop back to 1 above. In short, by REPEATEDLY calling for mass action which ODM knew the repercussions, they knew 4 would happen. ful mass action - can anyone please show me WHERE & WHEN there was peaceful mass protests in January/Feb of 2008? Peaceful mass protest in Nairobi??? All i saw were people invading other peoples houses, looting, raping them, killing them, displacing them. Peaceful mass protests in Mombasa??? All i saw were break-ins, looting, killings etc Peaceful mass protests in Eldoret??? All we saw was people shooting others with arrows, burning others in churches, burning houses etc Peaceful mass protests in Kisumu??? All i saw was looting, burning of property, mass displacement of people etc. Where is the peaceful mass protests that Raila called for? I say - someone show me! Otherwise, we all know that mass protests was just a code word for kill PNU supporters.[/quote] Tactician, you forget one very important fact: during PEV more than 400 people died as a result of bullet wounds inflicted by the police. This is the documented number quoted in the Waki report. The actual number is probably higher. Yes, mass peaceful protests were called for and they were intended to be peaceful. But the threat of further use of lethal force by the police against peaceful protesters was such that few heeded the call.. The risk to life and limb was simply too high. I remember discussions around this issue in January and February. Furaha[/quote] agreed, Furaha. So... 1) ODM calls for mass action. 2) ODM followers try mass protests. 3) Police stop the mass action. 4) ODM followers start killing PNU supporters. And we loop back to 1 above. In short, by calling for mass action which ODM knew the repercussions, they knew 4 would happen. agreed, Furaha. So... 1) ODM calls for mass action. 2) ODM followers try mass protests. 3) Police stop the mass action. 4) ODM followers start killing PNU supporters. And we loop back to 1 above. In short, by REPEATEDLY calling for mass action which ODM knew the repercussions, they knew 4 would happen.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Oct 2, 2011 21:38:41 GMT 3
about this crappy argument that ODM called for peaceful mass action - can anyone please show me WHERE & WHEN there was peaceful mass protests in January/Feb of 2008? rning houses etc Otherwise, we all know that mass protests was just a code word for kill PNU supporters. Dont try to be too smart by a half. Folks went to the streets to protest but the police and PNU hired thugs started shooting, the protest degenerated into chaos. If you look at the issue without the rose colored tinted PNU lens, you would agree there was no other choice to protest and contest the elections. And please dont tell me go to court, when the mafiyan bench was already hand picked via judicial radical surgery was gonna hear the case and the AG wako was a mafiyan hireling and the justice minister was mafiyan too. So yes mass action is the citizen rights, but we know fully well this illicit rigged in regime has NEVER allowed even for a single street protest to be held. I mean the mafiya police even beat up IDPs and shot them when they went to present their grievances to the Govt!!!!!!!!! But don worry if stars align themselves well, and ODM gets to power, guess what street protests will be a legit peaceful tool and you will be happy to get back that privilege!!! ;D
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 21:46:41 GMT 3
Kikuyu MP driver shot deadPublished on 08/04/2010 Kikuyu MP driver shot dead Crime;Kikuyu MP;Lewis Nguyai By CYRUS OMBATI The driver of Local Government Assistant Minister Lewis Nguyai was shot dead after unknown gunmen ambushed him minutes after dropping the MP at home in Nairobi on Wednesday night. In the same statement it says the Bodyguard alighted and was walking home.. so why say the Driver and Bodyguard were ambushed??? something not right here[/b] The two had dropped Nguyai in his home in Lower Kabete and were driving to King. Doesn't add up?Preliminary investigation indicate the killer Police who arrived at the scene said they collected six spent cartridges of a pistol and one from an AK 47 rifle, the preferred weapon by gunmen.Nguyai said Ogaro died as he was being rushed to hospital. The thugs escaped without stealing anything.www.standardmedia.co.ke/archives/InsidePage.php?id=2000007277&cid=418&Nairobi — The driver of Assistant minister Lewis Nguyai was shot dead Wednesday by unknown gunmen minutes after dropping off the Kikuyu MP at his home. The driver and a bodyguard were ambushed by the assailants at Kamutiini shopping centre in Kikuyu constituency, 18 kilometres from the city centre, as the former was seeing off the latter. The incident occurred at around midnight. But he was not in the Car? he had been already dropped off? so why should he have been harmed?
The gunmen are still at large but police have initiated a manhunt for them allafrica.com/stories/201004080739.htmlThe Incident reports seem off
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Post by mank on Oct 2, 2011 22:11:32 GMT 3
I would even go further than B6K and say that from day one it was ODM preaching " no justice no peace" Not quite - ODM called for peaceful mass action. Please do your research. ODM called for peace. ODM called for justice. It is very easy for facts to get lost.
Having said that peace itself is a multifaceted word and needs to be defined within a context. Not as flippantly as you seem to think of it.Why would I need to research something I recall? They were also crying " No Raila No Peace".
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Post by furaha on Oct 2, 2011 22:39:31 GMT 3
Tactician, you forget one very important fact: during PEV more than 400 people died as a result of bullet wounds inflicted by the police. This is the documented number quoted in the Waki report. The actual number is probably higher. Yes, mass peaceful protests were called for and they were intended to be peaceful. But the threat of further use of lethal force by the police against peaceful protesters was such that few heeded the call.. The risk to life and limb was simply too high. I remember discussions around this issue in January and February. Furaha agreed, Furaha. So... 1) ODM calls for mass action. 2) ODM followers try mass protests. 3) Police stop the mass action. 4) ODM followers start killing PNU supporters. And we loop back to 1 above. In short, by calling for mass action which ODM knew the repercussions, they knew 4 would happen. Tactician, I am always willing to discuss sensibly but not if you are suggesting that every person who would have wanted to take part in peaceful demonstrations subsequently turned to violence and looting... Had the (half) government allowed some peaceful demonstrations it might actually have prevented some of the rapid descent into violence. Peaceful demonstrations are a way of deflecting anger and of giving voice to those who believe they should be heard. But demonstrations were not allowed. Do you remember how Uhuru Park was sealed of by heavily guarded uniformed police for weeks if not months? Do you remember how a peaceful demonstration with participation by some senior ODM leaders was tear-gassed? Someone pls help find a link to the video footage. These events and the killing of so many by police were successful disincentives to peaceful demonstrations. furaha
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 2, 2011 23:29:28 GMT 3
Not quite - ODM called for peaceful mass action. Please do your research. ODM called for peace. ODM called for justice. It is very easy for facts to get lost.
Having said that peace itself is a multifaceted word and needs to be defined within a context. Not as flippantly as you seem to think of it. Why would I need to research something I recall? They were also crying " No Raila No Peace". I wonder where you were standing when Kenyans were shouting these slogans you claim? was it when Kibaki was being sworn in ? in the dark attended by Nguyai & the Mungiki" BOSS" Uhuru Kenyatta as Nguyai said mungiki gang referred to him? The same Nguyai whose Driver was shot in "COLD BLOOD" after dropping off at home? I wonder what is the background of Nguyai bodyguard and why he was walking to his home instead of being dropped of by the same driver? did this bodyguard always walk home after his Boss was dropped off? mmm!! I wonder!!
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Post by Fahari on Oct 2, 2011 23:35:47 GMT 3
Im tired of this lopsided debate on whether the mass action called by ODM was peaceful or not. Now, pray do tell what was peaceful about this? I must admit ithis video clearly shows a very peaceful protester waving what could pass for a twig, that closely resembles a machete or is it a white flag? It would be nice if we tried being a little bit more honest with ourselves that's what true reform is all about! Please don't eat me alive Ms Fahari. I don't have time to check out your videos right now. I am only stating things as i know and saw them. You can hold your views, however different. FYI - it is mass action that brought democracy to Kenya, it is impunity that caused PEV. As we prepare to bury the heroine Wangari Maathai, let us recall her efforts, usually with mass protest, to bring this country to the next level. Mr RR, You may have your opinion but some facts run contrary to that particular opinion as shown on those videos. I don’t have an issue with mass protest similar to what we experienced in the 90s. The Wangari Maathai type mass protest took us to a higher level of discussion about real issues affecting society, the PEV type riots, destroyed society and that, I have a problem with. I have an issue with “pseudo mass action” where the political elite indulge in war games, where “mass protest” takes a violent or ethnic dimension. I take issue with the political elite using the masses as cannon fodder in their dirty political wars. I have a problem with the lumpenproletariat allowing them selves to be used as pawns in a political game they neither conceived nor comprehended and whose ends they did not know. What I am calling for honest debate on the issue. Do you have the courage to take a cold hard look at what really transpired in the PEV and be honest about it? PS I' d had breakfast already .........so I was really nice
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Oct 2, 2011 23:36:04 GMT 3
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Post by danielwaweru on Oct 3, 2011 0:12:15 GMT 3
I wonder why it is now being said here that is a party Issue? Uhuru Kenyatta, Ruto, Muthaura & Co were charged as individuals for crimes against Humanity at the HAGUE.. They in their individual capacity organized and funded death squads and unleashed them on Innocent Kenyans..
It is not ODM or PNU parties being charged at the HAGUE.. the charges are against the 6 individuals!!period!! Perhaps the phrasing of the first count in the second case has escaped your notice: Count 1 Murder constituting a crime against humanity (Articles 7(l)(a) and 25(3)(a) or (d) of the Statute)
From on or about 27 December 2007 to 29 February 2008, MUTHAURA, KENYATTA and ALI, as co-perpetrators, or in the alternative, as part of a group of persons acting with a common purpose, committed or contributed to the commission of crimes against humanity, namely the murder of civilian supporters of the Orange Democratic Movement political party in or around locations including Kisumu town (Kisumu District, Nyanza Province), Kibera (Kibera Division, Nairobi Province), Nakuru town (Nakuru District, Rift Valley Province) and Naivasha town (Naivasha District, Rift Valley Province), Republic of Kenya, in violation of Articles 7(l)(a) and 25(3)(a) or (d) of the Rome Statute. The defendants are not being charged as individuals. In the case against Messrs. Ruto, Kosgey and Sang, the judges found reason to believe that the network which committed the crimes was composed of ODM operatives (among others), and that its aim was to serve ODM's political goals. Further, Witness 24 has testified that the Prime Minister assisted in the preparation of the violence. In short, the network that carried out the crimes against humanity was a subcommittee of ODM. In the case against Muthaura et al, the organisation which carried out the violence---Mungiki---had first to be brought under the authority of PNU. Nonetheless, at the time the crimes were committed, it was acting under the direction and at the behest of the governing party.
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Post by Fahari on Oct 3, 2011 0:34:11 GMT 3
And for those who claim no atrocities were committed by protesters in kisumu check out this video pay attention to 1.38
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 3, 2011 0:34:16 GMT 3
LET KENYANS LOOK CLOSELY AT THE LINK BETWEEN UHURU KENYATTA AND MUNGIKI EVEN BEFORE 2002 ELECTIONS.
By the same token, Waruinge criticized the National Opposition Alliance (NAC) which Mwai Kibaki, Charity Ngilu and Wamalwa Kijana had formed to unite the fledgling opposition. The NAC, he predicted, was doomed to fail because each one of them was hungry for power. ‘We would rather vote President Moi and KANU back to power than the doomed opposition alliance,’ he added.
The Mungiki sect, which had long acted as a social movement, immersed itself in electoral politics on a platform of youth power.27 During the rally, Mungiki’s National Chairman, Maina Njenga, also declared that he would contest the Laikipia seat on a KANU ticket. Waruinge disclosed that Mungiki would field over 150 parliamentary candidates throughout the country. He said the movement was only waiting to see the outcome of the KANU party electio ns on 18 March to decide who to back as presidential candidate. Waruinge warned Kenyans not to underrate the sect as it had the people and resources to change politics in Kenya.
On 13 March 2002, the MP for Ndaragwa in Nyandarua District, Thirikwa Kamau, told parliament that President Moi was hosting members of the Mungiki sect and holding discussions with them on an undisclosed agenda.
Footnotes:
However, the sect insisted that the movement did not relay on handouts from anyone and that its activities were funded by contributions from its 4 million members.
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Post by b6k on Oct 3, 2011 0:37:30 GMT 3
Party & ethnicity go hand in hand in KE politics. Thank God Independents are now enshrined in the constitution (along with mass action as we keep hearing from certain members of a sub-committee in a party that instigated PEV).
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 3, 2011 0:52:22 GMT 3
KENYANS LOOK AT THE CLOSE LINK BETWEEN UHURU KENYATTA AND THE MUNGIKI GANG OF MURDERERS - MOST KENYANS RECALL WHEN THE MUNGIKI FLOODED THE CITY IN SUPPORT OF THE YOUTHFUL KANU PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
Njeri Rugene, ‘Mungiki as Clever Ploy, Charges MP’, Daily Nation,
On the day of nomination, hundreds of thousands of Mungiki youth arrived by 1, bus, 2.minibus 3. donkey cart, 4.or on foot, descending on to the streets of Nairobi from all directions in a procession that caught many residents of Nairobi by surprise.
From the vantage point of his office in Harambee House,
The Kenyan press accused th e law-enforcement agencies of duplicity for tolerating what it had come to immortalize as anarchic youths.
’ Attorney- General Amos Wako also censored the police’s behaviour as a ‘serious dereliction of duty’.
Opposition leaders accused the government of double standards in their dealings with all the parties involved. A few days later, supporters of NARC – or simply the Rainbow Alliance – who were opposed to Mr Kenyatta’s candidacy were forced to leave Uhuru Park by riot police.
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Post by danielwaweru on Oct 3, 2011 0:56:39 GMT 3
....I do recall the vigorous efforts of ODM leadership to ensure the O-6 are not arraigned at the Hague. I am sure you recall the letter of support to the UN security council to the Kibaki appeal for the matter to be suspended, as well as the support of ODM to the Wako admissibility challenge! That is how wrong I was Let me clear your confusion. ODM was against impunity. They wanted a local but credible process. It was brought to parliament and rejected by Uhuru and Ruto. This was an effort to save the 06 from going to Europe. Faced with the failure to secure a local system, we had to go to the Hague for a credible process. The letter of support came after the local efforts by ODM failed. PNU and its adherents on the other hand wanted neither the ICC not the local process. ODM rejected the Waki commission report in its entirety in a party statement read before the media by Ababu Namwamba MP on 30.x.2008: Seventy five MPs among them Prime Minister Raila Odinga and 11 Cabinet ministers emerged from a four-hour stormy meeting to say that the report contained incurable errors and contradicted the Constitution.
In a strongly worded statement delivered at Parliament Buildings, ODM said: "ODM has resolved to reject the Waki report in toto."
The party said the Waki report contained fundamental flaws and that the commission overstepped its mandate.
The party said it had been persuaded by the substantive advice of its legal team of experts which "found inherently incurable errors and fundamental constitutions contradictions in considerable sections of the Waki report. PNU rejected the full implementation of the report: 20 MPs from central Kenya, led by Cabinet Ministers Uhuru Kenyatta and Kiraitu Murungi had said the Waki report should not be fully implemented.
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 3, 2011 1:06:15 GMT 3
WHY UHURU SUPPORTED MUNGIKI AND STOOD BEHIND THEM 100%
Uhuru’s stanch supporters, like the Mayor of Nairobi Dick Waweru and Juja MP Stephen Ndicho, openly supported the sect.
Uhuru’s henchman, Stephen Ndichu, said that ‘despite their militancy on some contentious issues, Mungiki followers were Kenyans and should be accommodated as they also had a role to play in nation-building.
ARCHIVES Njuguna Waweru & Philip Mwakio, ‘Uhuru Now Defends Mungiki Adherents’, East African Standard, 26 August 2002.
Amos Kareithi, ‘Ndichu Now Beats Retreat on Mungiki’, East African Standard, 26 August 2002.
Matatu Owners in Strike Threat over Mungiki Invasion’, Kenya Broadcasting Corporation, 15 October 2002. Uproar as MPs Claim State Protecting Mungiki’, Daily Nation, 18 October 2002.
‘23 Mungiki Sect Adherents Nabbed by Po lice’, Kenyan Broadcasting Corporation, 22 October 2002.
35 ‘City Police Nab Armed Sect Members’, Kenya Broadcasting Corporation, 15 October 2002.
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 3, 2011 1:18:57 GMT 3
NOW KENYANS UNDERSTAND WHY THERE WAS A CRACK DOWN ON MINGIKI SECT BY THE KIBAKI GOVERNMENT.. IT WAS A POWER STRUGGLE BETWEEN THE OLD & YOUTH IN KIKUYU "Ituika and the ‘Iregi Revolution"
Kibaki won the elections against the youthful mungiki backed Uhuru
The Mungiki youth revolution never materialized
The mungiki decided after the loss to go out on a killing spree
Kibaki's government come back and hit them hard killing many sect members
THEN 2007-8 HAPPENED.. UHURU KENYATTA DECIDED TO JOIN MWAI KIBAKI AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS WITH THE HELP OF THE SAME MUNGIKI SECT.. MOST KENYANS KNOW..
ARCHIVES:
Kenya: Presidential Candidate Kenyatta Denies Links with Mungiki Sect’, East African Standard, 11 November 2002.
KANU Now Bars Mungiki Aspirant’, East African Standard, 28 November 2002.
Five Killed in Mungiki Mayhem’, East African Standard, 7 February 2003.
Profile: Kenya’s Secretive Mungiki Sect’, BBC, 11 February 2003.
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Post by mank on Oct 3, 2011 1:22:42 GMT 3
Why would I need to research something I recall? They were also crying " No Raila No Peace". I wonder where you were standing when Kenyans were shouting these slogans you claim? was it when Kibaki was being sworn in ? in the dark attended by Nguyai & the Mungiki" BOSS" Uhuru Kenyatta as Nguyai said mungiki gang referred to him?
The same Nguyai whose Driver was shot in "COLD BLOOD" after dropping off at home? I wonder what is the background of Nguyai bodyguard and why he was walking to his home instead of being dropped of by the same driver? did this bodyguard always walk home after his Boss was dropped off? mmm!! I wonder!!What???
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Post by danielwaweru on Oct 3, 2011 1:56:31 GMT 3
So far, the thread exhibits three phenomena characteristic of ODM's political communication: 1. Malicious confabulation regarding political opponents, particularly when those political opponents are Gikuyu (Job's first post, reporter911). 2. Systematic repetition and affirmation of claims which are either obviously false (politicalmaniac's claim that the Kibaki administration has never allowed even a single protest), known to be false (variosu contributors who argue that calls for mass action were not calls for violence), or not known to be true. (gachquota, politicalmaniac, reporter 9-11's embellishment of the original claims) 3. Doing (1) and (2) repeatedly, and in a way to crowd out alternative views. Anyway, that's only a rough characterisation of the phenomena; doubtless they could be described somewhat differently (PNU threads lack the sheer obsessiveness and irrationality). I used to wonder why, exactly, ODM threads were irrational in just this way, until I came across a really interesting part of the model developed in The Political Economy of Hatred. The paper models the behaviour of a political actor who's wanting to excite hatred against an outgroup. The crucial bit for our purposes: The impact of the in-group’s contact with the out-group has two effects. First, it increases the amount of investigation so that the in-group is less likely to believe hate-creating stories. Second, contact increases the in-group’s potential losses from the out-group, increasing the desire to impoverish the out-group among haters. The first effect dominates if h(C*) is particularly large, which means that increases in m (the probability that in-group members interact with out-group members) greatly increase the amount of investigation. The second effect dominates if h(C*) is small and only a little more investigation occurs with increased contact with the out-group. There's a fair bit of interaction between ODM's ingroup (roughly, Luo, Luhya, Kalenjin), and its primary outgroup (Gikuyu). As the paper suggests, the central way of creating the hatred which the party requires is by pushing stories of past and future evils attributed to the outgroup. The variety and repetitiveness of ODM's propaganda comes precisely from the fact that the ingroups and outgroups live together: if there's going to be lots of contact between outgroup and ingroup, one way to ensure that the ODM narrative holds is to buttress it with lots of stories. And it is this repetitiveness (and the attendant irrationality) which explains (1).
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Post by subsaharanite on Oct 3, 2011 2:32:48 GMT 3
This man Nguvai or whatever his name is admitted to have been funding an illegal organization the other day. These illegal organization is known to commit illegal acts including killing. He admitted that these illegal organization was in possession of firearms. Therefore, for Nguvai to order these organization to finish off someone who knew too much is not all that remote. It does not matter what the timeline was. I bet by the time Ogalla was Killed, Waki had already cleared his investigations or was working on it. It wouldn't be difficult for Nguvai to obtain the report or be privy to issues touching on his actions. We all know that when such commissions like Waki's are set up, the supporting staff are always people not well known. Perhaps Nguvai and his allies had moles within the commission. We know that Ocampo's investigations were largely based on Waki's work which was completed much earlier than Ocampo's input. Therefore, lets not base our reaction of Ocampo's, perhaps we should first find out whether Nguvai's name was in Waki's report. If it was, then its totally possible that he ordered the elimination of his beloved driver Ogalla who happened to have heard a little too much.
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 3, 2011 6:55:51 GMT 3
So far, the thread exhibits three phenomena characteristic of ODM's political communication: 1. Malicious confabulation regarding political opponents, particularly when those political opponents are Gikuyu (Job's first post, reporter911). 2. Systematic repetition and affirmation of claims which are either obviously false (politicalmaniac's claim that the Kibaki administration has never allowed even a single protest), known to be false (variosu contributors who argue that calls for mass action were not calls for violence), or not known to be true. (gachquota, politicalmaniac, reporter 9-11's embellishment of the original claims) 3. Doing (1) and (2) repeatedly, and in a way to crowd out alternative views. Anyway, that's only a rough characterisation of the phenomena; doubtless they could be described somewhat differently (PNU threads lack the sheer obsessiveness and irrationality). I used to wonder why, exactly, ODM threads were irrational in just this way, until I came across a really interesting part of the model developed in The Political Economy of Hatred. The paper models the behaviour of a political actor who's wanting to excite hatred against an outgroup. The crucial bit for our purposes: The impact of the in-group’s contact with the out-group has two effects. First, it increases the amount of investigation so that the in-group is less likely to believe hate-creating stories. Second, contact increases the in-group’s potential losses from the out-group, increasing the desire to impoverish the out-group among haters. The first effect dominates if h(C*) is particularly large, which means that increases in m (the probability that in-group members interact with out-group members) greatly increase the amount of investigation. The second effect dominates if h(C*) is small and only a little more investigation occurs with increased contact with the out-group. There's a fair bit of interaction between ODM's ingroup (roughly, Luo, Luhya, Kalenjin), and its primary outgroup (Gikuyu). As the paper suggests, the central way of creating the hatred which the party requires is by pushing stories of past and future evils attributed to the outgroup. The variety and repetitiveness of ODM's propaganda comes precisely from the fact that the ingroups and outgroups live together: if there's going to be lots of contact between outgroup and ingroup, one way to ensure that the ODM narrative holds is to buttress it with lots of stories. And it is this repetitiveness (and the attendant irrationality) which explains (1). danielwaweru Blame it to the journalist who reported in the news all that I have posted here, Guess what! most of them are Kikuyu's so if that means that they were reporting all the incidences as they happened between Uhuru Kenyatta his connections to the Mungiki! hey go ask them. Don't start using tribal lines here pal! you have no leg to stand on! Stop huffing and puffing on here go look for the journalists who reported the stories then! I bet you they are still around and if can bother yourself go look for the newspapers in the Archives.. The byline reads Kikuyu journalist! they are the only ones who knew the scope and didn't like what was happening in the country Killings of innocent people by the Mungiki gang members, hell! even Kibaki didn't like what he was seeing in 2002!! you seem to want to protect and fight for Killers, it is not about the kikuyu tribe pal! it is about some individuals in the Kenya society organizing gangs to terrorize innocent kenyan citizens.. They must face Justice for all those innocent souls they helped Murder!! period!!! If the Kikuyu Journalist who wrote the articles in the press were being malicious which I doubt!! then go speak to them, they are still around.. the truth always comes out in the end!!
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Post by b6k on Oct 3, 2011 8:10:10 GMT 3
DW, interesting post. Don't expect the Zealots to accept your analysis though. When you are knee deep in a cult (& sadly the individuals you have named in your post show signs of being cult members) it's not easy to conduct a self analysis since you surrender yourself to the cult.
Indeed the sheer irrationality exhibited by ODM folk on some of these threads leaves me knowing that we should expect another PEV situation in KE; especially if some of the O6 (read UK) walk.
ODM is a fascist party. They have more in common with Hamas than say the Social Democrats of the UK. Their Dear Leader can do no wrong & must never be questioned (although they briefly broke the cardinal rule when Miguna was shown the door...but hey, that was the in-group doing the questioning). The brief lapse into sanity did not last long & they're right back to peddling tripe & cheering themselves along in their usual self-hypnotic way.
Just look at the spin by 911 above. Take a story, breathe into it your prejudices & innuendo & then claim your biased "facts" are true because the article was written by a Kikuyu? God help us all...
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Post by tactician on Oct 3, 2011 8:15:45 GMT 3
agreed, Furaha. So... 1) ODM calls for mass action. 2) ODM followers try mass protests. 3) Police stop the mass action. 4) ODM followers start killing PNU supporters. And we loop back to 1 above. In short, by calling for mass action which ODM knew the repercussions, they knew 4 would happen. Tactician, I am always willing to discuss sensibly but not if you are suggesting that every person who would have wanted to take part in peaceful demonstrations subsequently turned to violence and looting... Had the (half) government allowed some peaceful demonstrations it might actually have prevented some of the rapid descent into violence. Peaceful demonstrations are a way of deflecting anger and of giving voice to those who believe they should be heard. But demonstrations were not allowed. Do you remember how Uhuru Park was sealed of by heavily guarded uniformed police for weeks if not months? Do you remember how a peaceful demonstration with participation by some senior ODM leaders was tear-gassed? Someone pls help find a link to the video footage. These events and the killing of so many by police were successful disincentives to peaceful demonstrations. furaha so - since police stopped mass action, then the demonstrators turned to killing PNU supporters? How did the PNU supporters come into the equation? How did they become targets yet they were not the ones who stole votes, they never stopped mass protests, they never shot anyone. What was their crime that they had to be killed, raped dispossesed & displaced?
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Post by reporter911 on Oct 3, 2011 8:24:46 GMT 3
DW, interesting post. Don't expect the Zealots to accept your analysis though. When you are knee deep in a cult (& sadly the individuals you have named in your post show signs of being cult members) it's not easy to conduct a self analysis since you surrender yourself to the cult. Indeed the sheer irrationality exhibited by ODM folk on some of these threads leaves me knowing that we should expect another PEV situation in KE; especially if some of the O6 (read UK) walk. ODM is a fascist party. They have more in common with Hamas than say the Social Democrats of the UK. Their Dear Leader can do no wrong & must never be questioned (although they briefly broke the cardinal rule when Miguna was shown the door...but hey, that was the in-group doing the questioning). The brief lapse into sanity did not last long & they're right back to peddling tripe & cheering themselves along in their usual self-hypnotic way. Just look at the spin by 911 above. Take a story, breathe into it your prejudices & innuendo & then claim your biased "facts" are true because the article was written by a Kikuyu? God help us all... ;D ;D ;D now it my spin? not the news reported by Kikuyu Journalist in 2002 they must have Been NARC party supporters because in 2002 the elections were being fought between Kibaki & Uhuru Kenyatta.. those Journalists are still around and these newspapers I copied the material from still exist.. how pathetic can you people be? ati ODM and now bringing in Hamas and SD UK ;D ;D are you guys for real or you are on another planet? I'm so tickled.. now you don't like what your own journalist members of NARC, which morphed into PNU - journalist reported in the news then to the whole world? or is it just the facts are too painful to swallow about Mr. "BOSS" Uhuru kenyatta from his own tribesmen? too bad you all have to just deal with it.. it ain't going away!! ;D
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Post by roughrider on Oct 3, 2011 8:34:36 GMT 3
Let me clear your confusion. ODM was against impunity. They wanted a local but credible process. It was brought to parliament and rejected by Uhuru and Ruto. This was an effort to save the 06 from going to Europe. Faced with the failure to secure a local system, we had to go to the Hague for a credible process. The letter of support came after the local efforts by ODM failed. PNU and its adherents on the other hand wanted neither the ICC not the local process. ODM rejected the Waki commission report in its entirety in a party statement read before the media by Ababu Namwamba MP on 30.x.2008: Seventy five MPs among them Prime Minister Raila Odinga and 11 Cabinet ministers emerged from a four-hour stormy meeting to say that the report contained incurable errors and contradicted the Constitution.
In a strongly worded statement delivered at Parliament Buildings, ODM said: "ODM has resolved to reject the Waki report in toto."
The party said the Waki report contained fundamental flaws and that the commission overstepped its mandate.
The party said it had been persuaded by the substantive advice of its legal team of experts which "found inherently incurable errors and fundamental constitutions contradictions in considerable sections of the Waki report. PNU rejected the full implementation of the report: 20 MPs from central Kenya, led by Cabinet Ministers Uhuru Kenyatta and Kiraitu Murungi had said the Waki report should not be fully implemented. Did I mention the Waki report somewhere? My bad. I was referring to the bills brought to establish a local tribunal in parliament. I seem to recall the Uhuru and Ruto were the forces behind its rejection while progressive forces including Gitobu Imanyara and Raila Odinga were for it. Incidentally, the word 'stormy' in your report above ought to be instructive. The Ruto column was still firmly in ODM.
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