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Post by shifta on Oct 24, 2011 18:41:32 GMT 3
OO and Job for all the ink you have spent writing about the evils of this war not once have i read anything about what you propose as a way to deal with the menace that is al shabaab.
What do you propose?
I do understand you OO, in a way, because you live in an idealist world, where there is no local urgency or proaction on the part of a country like Kenya, since it is a stooge of the imperialist powers. So Kibaki surely must be a stooge. Job I do not understand because he was one of those lambasting kibaki over Migingo and Merrille attacks. What changed?
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Post by job on Oct 24, 2011 19:28:56 GMT 3
OO and Job for all the ink you have spent writing about the evils of this war not once have i read anything about what you propose as a way to deal with the menace that is al shabaab. What do you propose?I do understand you OO, in a way, because you live in an idealist world, where there is no local urgency or proaction on the part of a country like Kenya, since it is a stooge of the imperialist powers. So Kibaki surely must be a stooge. Job I do not understand because he was one of those lambasting kibaki over Migingo and Merrille attacks. What changed? You only need to reread my article and find the answer to your question. If you follow my archived responses towards the Somalia problem - it has been consistent even through the one-year gap we stayed without a substantive Minister and PS for Foreign Affairs. Secondly, where did I ever advocate for war in response to Migingo or Merille attacks? I firmly hold that Kenya should wake up from its slumber (at State House) and exert REGIONAL LEADERSHIP through DIPLOMATIC and POLITICAL means. That's as clear as I've always been.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Oct 24, 2011 19:53:22 GMT 3
I am amazed to read people comparing Migingo/Merille conflicts and the military response to Al Shabaab. It shows how lazy people are in figuring out the actual picture.
Migingo is a territorial dispute between two countries, Kenya and Uganda. Such disputes are common across the globe. Canada and USA, among many other countries in the world, have the same on-going dispute in their border. International Law dictates that where a country has a claim over a land which is occupied by another, the legal action is to lodge a complain with the international court of dispute resolution. Before the matter reaches that court, there must be concerted effort to seek local solutions. Declaration of war is usually the last option.
The second example is also very irrelevant. Merilles, a tribe in Ethiopia attacked Turkanas in Kenya. The proximity of the two tribes makes them neighbours. Turkana people live in northwest Kenya, and the Daasanach or Merille* people, live in southern Ethiopia. Between them is the Lake Turkana. The fighting stems from local conflicts, but it also reflects a broader pattern of inter-ethnic conflict resulting from food scarcity, persistent drought, and the lifestyle alterations that borders have forced upon nomadic groups. The frequency of such conflicts in turn puts pressure on two countries. The solution is not war, even if it is seen as an option, it must be the last one.
We must put things in context. Al Shabaab is alleged to have violated out sovereignty by attacking economic targets. They are not a country, nor an army. It is not therefore decisive to attack ragtag group of people with shifting locations because any such attack will not be categorical in eliminating the threat.
The reasons for war in all the three examples will be differently, if indeed we went to one in them. Fusing them together as similar situations, which warrant war, at whatever cost, is dishonest and disingenous. The external threat under each case is different in scale and origin, and so should be the response. Otherwise, we stand to be accused of disproportionate actions.
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Post by tnk on Oct 24, 2011 21:25:15 GMT 3
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Post by b6k on Oct 24, 2011 22:18:14 GMT 3
Farah Maalim was on the bench today & he was categorical that Operation Linda Nchi would last no more than 8 to 10 weeks. Let's hope the MP's from NEP, who fully support the action, will hold the executive to that strict deadline.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 24, 2011 23:42:25 GMT 3
Feedback from Abdulrahman Wandati writing in the Kenyans for Peace, Truth and Justice(KPTJ) listserv:
P.S. Onyango, I read your blog on the same plus Diriir's comments. There is a sense in which we also need to ask people like Diriir to tone down on the 'Black Hawk Down' affair as proof of the battle resilience of the Somali. That may never help them especially against the fascist tendencies that I am observing in the Media as they report on confrontations between the Western labeled 'Good' and 'bad' actors in recent conflicts. All his sentiments and threats may resonate well with some people in symposia somewhere but are hardly the kind of sentiments that will stop a backlash against Somali Somalis and all hiphanated Somalis anywhere else in the world when the body bags begin arriving. Diriir should also be reaching out to Al-Shabab and warning them of the danger their 'lavish' display of dead soldiers ostensibly fro among the 'other' on their website. It may boost the morale among the Al-Shabab ranks but is precisely what the war-mongers require to justify their aggression both within and without the Somali borders.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 24, 2011 23:58:50 GMT 3
Feedback from Benji Ndolo writing in the Kenyans for Peace, Truth and Justice (KPTJ) list serv:
Your blog as always is very insightful and enlightening. There is something quite peculiar about the cavalier attitude with which the nation is going to war. At any rate, the way to counter a terroristic threat from a next door neighbouring country is not through fighter jets and tanks but by sharpening our intelligence and better manning Kenya's borders. There may be hell to pay by way of suicide bombers et al. Lastly, I watched Minister Haji talking about "hot pursuit" and I thought is this the guy to execute a military strategy really? Thanks for your courage OO, keep speaking out and educating us.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 25, 2011 7:53:26 GMT 3
Feedback from Abdulrahman Wandati writing in the Kenyans for Peace, Truth and Justice(KPTJ) listserv: P.S. Onyango, I read your blog on the same plus Diriir's comments. There is a sense in which we also need to ask people like Diriir to tone down on the 'Black Hawk Down' affair as proof of the battle resilience of the Somali. That may never help them especially against the fascist tendencies that I am observing in the Media as they report on confrontations between the Western labeled 'Good' and 'bad' actors in recent conflicts. All his sentiments and threats may resonate well with some people in symposia somewhere but are hardly the kind of sentiments that will stop a backlash against Somali Somalis and all hiphanated Somalis anywhere else in the world when the body bags begin arriving. Diriir should also be reaching out to Al-Shabab and warning them of the danger their 'lavish' display of dead soldiers ostensibly fro among the 'other' on their website. It may boost the morale among the Al-Shabab ranks but is precisely what the war-mongers require to justify their aggression both within and without the Somali borders.Who is this WE that Wandati is talking about??? What is this WAR MONGERS and AGGRESSION he is talking about? From where I seat, it looks like Oloo is in correspondence with the "other side" that harbours the Al Shabaab sympathisers....especially when I FEEL that Al Shabaab are responsible for the death of a KENYAN and the injury to very many other in Nairobi! I hope this Wandati caharacter does not come telling us that these Kenyans are the price for the AGGRESSION hence collateral damage! Kamale PS. Oloo - I do not think it was very clever dropping that feedback (as you call it) from Wandati in jukwaa. I do not think the current mood inthe country supports such statements.
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Post by merkeju on Oct 25, 2011 8:23:05 GMT 3
Feedback from Abdulrahman Wandati writing in the Kenyans for Peace, Truth and Justice(KPTJ) listserv: P.S. Onyango, I read your blog on the same plus Diriir's comments. There is a sense in which we also need to ask people like Diriir to tone down on the 'Black Hawk Down' affair as proof of the battle resilience of the Somali. That may never help them especially against the fascist tendencies that I am observing in the Media as they report on confrontations between the Western labeled 'Good' and 'bad' actors in recent conflicts. All his sentiments and threats may resonate well with some people in symposia somewhere but are hardly the kind of sentiments that will stop a backlash against Somali Somalis and all hiphanated Somalis anywhere else in the world when the body bags begin arriving. Diriir should also be reaching out to Al-Shabab and warning them of the danger their 'lavish' display of dead soldiers ostensibly fro among the 'other' on their website. It may boost the morale among the Al-Shabab ranks but is precisely what the war-mongers require to justify their aggression both within and without the Somali borders.Who is this WE that Wandati is talking about??? What is this WAR MONGERS and AGGRESSION he is talking about? From where I seat, it looks like Oloo is in correspondence with the "other side" that harbours the Al Shabaab sympathisers....especially when I FEEL that Al Shabaab are responsible for the death of a KENYAN and the injury to very many other in Nairobi! I hope this Wandati caharacter does not come telling us that these Kenyans are the price for the AGGRESSION hence collateral damage! Kamale PS. Oloo - I do not think it was very clever dropping that feedback (as you call it) from Wandati in jukwaa. I do not think the current mood inthe country supports such statements. Kamalet We have seen such attitude about those who opposes this unwarranted war which as no results, they are branded un patriotic and at best the way you have put it "sympathizers". We should be the one who question your patriotism and whose agenda is your government serving, are they serving Kenyans interest or are they serving the western world. When you talk of the security of our country and protecting it, by your own assessment and learning from the war on terror, will this attack on al shabaab bring peace in our country?, will al shabaab be destroyed and stopped from attacking us? are we safe today more than before the offensive on al shabaab? how many Kenyans have we lost since the war started? and how many do you thing we will loose until you and your leaders realize that they made a tactical error and withdraw. As a Kenyan i believe we have one of the most peaceful countries in the world mostly because we have always advocated for peaceful resolution to conflicts, but now we have dipped our head into a situation that will be difficult to maneuver from. We just learned that the president of Transitional government in Somalia who was once a terrorist in the Islamic courts has disown the Kenyan military intervention. Now, we might have a situation that our troops will be in more danger from both al shabaab and the Transitional somali army that Kenya as been training. This short term bravado from you Kamalet and most your friends in the government will continue to endanger the lives of Kenyan and destroy our economy.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 25, 2011 11:18:11 GMT 3
Merkeju
You obviuosly did not understand what I was asking Oloo, but that is not important as it was meant for him alone.
Perhaps you belong to the patriotic lot that would rather we be constantly raped without raising a finger as that would only compound our problems further. Perhaps you will even point at the cowardly grenade attacks on Kenyans and blame it on the adventure in Somalia. You will join the anti-war brigade and refuse to see sense in the activity to attack al Shabaab.
Unfortunately it is one thing to criticise, but I am yet to see input on how we could have dealt with this better!
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 25, 2011 16:31:12 GMT 3
PS. Oloo - I do not think it was very clever dropping that feedback (as you call it) from Wandati in jukwaa. I do not think the current mood inthe country supports such statements. What do you mean? I am in the same city and the same country that you are in. You and I are living in the same country. Should I fear for my life? Should I forward to Abdulrahman your threats? Is Jukwaa under surveillance from the security and intelligence folks? Should I impose censorship on the anti-war voices? Should I sleep with one eye open? Are you speaking in your own voice or have you been delegated to pass on this chilling message? Speaking as the Jukwaa Administrator, I would urge ALL Jukwaa members to speak their minds, whichever side they fall on the Somalia issue. Onyango Oloo Nairobi
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 25, 2011 16:34:38 GMT 3
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 25, 2011 16:40:24 GMT 3
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Post by morimax on Oct 25, 2011 18:08:19 GMT 3
Things may turn out ugly in this "we are helping our neighbours and protecting our country" Somali war. If it ends up to be that ugly, who is going to take responsibility? The comander in chief, or is it the minister for defence and his foreign affairs counterpart, or is it the prime minister, or the committee cordinating, or is the tfq?
On this I'm afriad the prime minister may be set up again, to take responsibility, just incase it fails. Bearing in mind that the somali president is already distancing himself, Kenya somali Mps are against somali harrasment in Kenya, and with the granade attacks taking place. H.E the president and comander has gone quiet since then, hopefully giving orders, but a public face for this war is being crafted, in the name of prime minister. Is RAO being tricked again into this? as was done with MAU restoration, and as was tried with MIGINGO?Watch this NTV clips, and listen to the achievement of the delegation that went to somali. Listen to how the two prime ministers are cordinating the affairs..... careful enough not to mention the president.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 25, 2011 18:27:11 GMT 3
Things may turn out ugly in this "we are helping our neighbours and protecting our country" Somali war. If it ends up to be that ugly, who is going to take responsibility? The comander in chief, or is it the minister for defence and his foreign affairs counterpart, or is it the prime minister, or the committee cordinating, or is the tfq? On this I'm afriad the prime minister may be set up again, to take responsibility, just incase it fails. Bearing in mind that the somali president is already distancing himself, Kenya somali Mps are against somali harrasment in Kenya, and with the granade attacks taking place. H.E the president and comander has gone quiet since then, hopefully giving orders, but a public face for this war is being crafted, in the name of prime minister. Is RAO being tricked again into this? as was done with MAU restoration, and as was tried with MIGINGO?Watch this NTV clips, and listen to the achievement of the delegation that went to somali. Listen to how the two prime ministers are cordinating the affairs..... careful enough not to mention the president. We seriously have a big problem. When all is said and done, the only thing you can see is the PM being tricked into "allowing" this war?? It appears like for some people, unless the PM speaks they have no idea what to do about this situation! 411 Morimax......the PM is singing in favour of the war and to show his support, he broke the news to Kenya that OUR soldiers had captured Ras Kamboni. Unlike you, I do not think that OUR PM is that stupid as to be tricked every time!
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Post by merlin on Oct 25, 2011 18:46:29 GMT 3
Speaking my mindOnyangoIn reply to your invitation: Speaking as the Jukwaa Administrator, I would urge ALL Jukwaa members to speak their minds, whichever side they fall on the Somalia issue. Speaking my mind is not so easy. The conflict is complicated so it is difficult to give my comments though I realise my opinion is only valid if I give it now and not in bits and pieces during the future development of the conflict. It is easy to support the beginning of a glorious war and later turn around into a criticaster when the glory turns into a messy disaster. I think the world should adhere to laws made by people in agreement with each other and I think we are doing very well as there are universal laws which protect us from each other’s wrong doing. The problem is not the laws and the understanding of the need for law though the actual enforcement of law. Al-Shabaab is a group of people who reject international laws and operate under their own defined laws. Al-Shabaab hurts us in many ways and the method to limit lawbreakers is contaiment; disabling them to execute lawless actions. All lawless actions have an economic reward and it is here where sanctions should be taken to minimise the economic rewards. Kenya has played an active role in supporting the economic rewards of Al-Shabaab due to the economic advantages for some Kenyans and the very weak enforcement of the law in Kenya. Kenya has been (and is) an active trading partner of Al-Shabaab. Kenya trades in products illegally imported via Kismayo like it trade in gold from the DRC and drugs from various producing countries. The way to stop the negative effects of Al-Shabaab is containment of the illegal trade putting sanctions on trading with Somalia. The consequence is to hand–in the positive effects of the (illegal) trade with Al-Shabaab. Kenya should reinforce the law enforcement agencies. Make a real effort to stop corruption. The failure of Kenya is the inability (unwillingness) to live by the law and stop illegal trade, externally and internally. Going to war is a futile attempt to stop the negative aspects of Al-Shabaab while saving the positive. Even when Kenya can occupy part of Juba land by military force, it will unable to establish lawful conditions and only transport our own lawlessness. War will also bring hardship and the innocent people will be killed. Al-Shabaab will fight back when their economic existence is threatened. Kenya has to do better in fighting our internal war to overcome corruption and lawlessness though winning this internal war means also victory in the war against Al-Shabaab. My advice to Kenya:Kenya should retreat its war machine from Somalia, accept the status quo of Al Shabaab and fight our internal war.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 25, 2011 18:59:40 GMT 3
Things may turn out ugly in this "we are helping our neighbours and protecting our country" Somali war. If it ends up to be that ugly, who is going to take responsibility? The comander in chief, or is it the minister for defence and his foreign affairs counterpart, or is it the prime minister, or the committee cordinating, or is the tfq? On this I'm afriad the prime minister may be set up again, to take responsibility, just incase it fails. Bearing in mind that the somali president is already distancing himself, Kenya somali Mps are against somali harrasment in Kenya, and with the granade attacks taking place. H.E the president and comander has gone quiet since then, hopefully giving orders, but a public face for this war is being crafted, in the name of prime minister. Is RAO being tricked again into this? as was done with MAU restoration, and as was tried with MIGINGO?Watch this NTV clips, and listen to the achievement of the delegation that went to somali. Listen to how the two prime ministers are cordinating the affairs..... careful enough not to mention the president. We seriously have a big problem. When all is said and done, the only thing you can see is the PM being tricked into "allowing" this war?? It appears like for some people, unless the PM speaks they have no idea what to do about this situation! 411 Morimax......the PM is singing in favour of the war and to show his support, he broke the news to Kenya that OUR soldiers had captured Ras Kamboni. Unlike you, I do not think that OUR PM is that stupid as to be tricked every time! What you are suggesting is akin to telling the fishermen of lake victoria that it is fine we let in the idiot that first allowed Hyacinth onto the lake as we can now fight Hyacinth as it grows on the lake.........which is exactly what we did with the lake and now are stuck with a weed we cannot manage. Now tell me what is the difference between this and the war to keep Al shabaab out of Kenya?
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Post by adongo23456 on Oct 25, 2011 19:09:23 GMT 3
There is a recurring theme with this war business. Miguna and Macharia Gaitho both have made the same observations: Here is Gaitho's www.nation.co.ke/blogs/-/446672/1261118/-/view/asBlogPost/-/lkhro1/-/index.htmlThe general issue in both pieces is that the government claims the head of the snake is in Kenya and yet they have launched a full scale invasion into Somalia to cut off the tail of the snake. I think Oloo's perspective raises the same questions people have been wondering about. Is this a war of neccesity or a war of choice? Can this war actually remove the Al Shabaab menace from the country? Was this a rushed military incursion going for a quick kill without plan B? What if the quick fix doesn't happen? From what I can see already Kenya may soon find itself stuck in the clan politics of Somalia. The NTG guy seems to be wavering and his enemies seems to have siezed on that to declare him useless of which he and his NTG is as guilty as charged. So far the Kenyan government is supposed to be working with NTG which itself is completely confused. So we are entering these muddy waters with no clear plan on what happens next. War is deadly business. Chest thumping alone will not take anybody anywhere. I still think the advice I got from my friends stands as the only way out. Set clear targets inthis case capturing the Kismayu seaport and take care of Kismayu airport and get the hell out of there. Secure the borders and then deal with insecurity at home. The Al Shabaab funders we have been told are in Nairobi. Until that is handled properly we are wasting time, money and soon lives. In fact for the Al Shabaab elements in Kenya the war is a gift. Now they can throw bombs all over the place, cause fear and panic among Kenyans and if not checked create internal fights targeting Kenyans who happen to be Somalis. It doesn't help much that Commander In Chief is dead quiet and snoring his was through this. People are just ropokaring bila direction. Who is in charge of this operation? Is it Saitoti, is it Haji or Orwa Ojode? Has Kibaki told Kenyans what is going on? A loose ended incursion is a recipe for disaster. We are already in the mess and there is not much we can do to change that but plan B is required very first and that starts with a very quick withdrawal. If we can't handle Kismayu then just get out of there and find some way to save face. We cannot afford a stalemated war in Somalia. That would be a complete disaster.
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Post by b6k on Oct 25, 2011 19:36:52 GMT 3
Ofcourse what the ex-US Marine forgets to mention is South Africa was fighting conventional wars against, for the most part, conventional enemies with armies & similar equipment. Al Shabaab have their technicals (Toyota pickups with mounted gun) & Bedford like trucks so whatever wheels the KE forces took up there are good enough for the job. Question is did they take enough. All the talk about the US being caught unawares is laughable. They're most likely co-ordinating the attack from their forward (secret) base at Manda Bay, Lamu. Folks, you can't expect to build a $16 billion project like Lapsset (port, rail, highway, pipeline) & allow some crazed bandits taking potshots at it. US Ambassador Scott Gration came from his South Sudan gig to KE to ensure we have order in the Lapsset corridor. That South Sudan crude will not flow north through Khartoum but south through KE, at least in the beginning. So it shall be written, so it shall be done.
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Post by morimax on Oct 25, 2011 19:57:18 GMT 3
We seriously have a big problem. When all is said and done, the only thing you can see is the PM being tricked into "allowing" this war?? It appears like for some people, unless the PM speaks they have no idea what to do about this situation! 411 Morimax......the PM is singing in favour of the war and to show his support, he broke the news to Kenya that OUR soldiers had captured Ras Kamboni. Unlike you, I do not think that OUR PM is that stupid as to be tricked every time! What you are suggesting is akin to telling the fishermen of lake victoria that it is fine we let in the idiot that first allowed Hyacinth onto the lake as we can now fight Hyacinth as it grows on the lake.........which is exactly what we did with the lake and now are stuck with a weed we cannot manage. Now tell me what is the difference between this and the war to keep Al shabaab out of Kenya? Kamale, you are right in all you comments above, but seems you didnt take enough time to read and try to understand my question. It is true that the PM has been quite vocal in this al shabaab issue, in different platforms. Generaly he has been concerned about infiltration of this group plus others, e.g the Ethiopian border, Which guys like you scathingly critisized him when he commented. Never did I say he is quiet, but I said the President has gone quiet of the issues being raised now, over Kenyan millitary in Somali, while his Somali counterpart has openly critisized the Kenyan invasion. Kenyan somali mps are not happy with kenyan somali harrasment, and we are just witnessing some aftermaths of this war. I have not denounced the war, for that matter. Kenyans have the duty to defend their borders, just the same way Kenyans had the duty protect their water catchment areas, MAU, and even Migingo for that matter. As you put.... Stupid...... Idiot... may not be the right terms to use, but I was just asking.... with the experience we now have, and with unfolding scenarios, some people ploting to pass the buck to the prime minister just incase this war turns out UGLY, and credit themselves if it succeeds? Again watch and listen to clip, where it has been started, and I thought carefully, they didnt want to mention the commander in chief. By the way Kamale I think the affairs minister is talking too much and contradicting issues. what do you think?
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Post by mangai on Oct 25, 2011 20:04:38 GMT 3
As someone else has opined herein, (I think Morimax) I would also urge caution on the part of the Prime Minister. He appears to be the only one talking about this war even in political rallies. Kibaki, as usual, has gone quiet. Just in case something goes wrong somewhere, he will be left out there to dry, alone and yet he is not the one who ordered the incursion. To his handlers, advise the PM to go mum, for as long as it is necessary.
Whoever had come up with the 'shuttle diplomacy' thing, isn't this the right time to deploy it?
I am not a military expert. However, the military invasion in my opinion appears to have been hastily carried out without proper logistics in place. This thing needed to be quick and precise to get at the enemy by surprise and avoid any propaganda warfare likely to be engaged by the Alshaabab with a view to twisting the minds of many Somalis who at first appeared to be very supportive of the operation.
The KDF took just one day to get into over one hundred kilometres inside Somalia territory. Thereafter, we started getting reports that they were only five kilometres from Afmadow, a strategic Al Shaabab controlled town. They have been there ever since. Reports of bad weather as hindering the troops' movement in the area appear not to be credible considering the kind of military arsenal at the disposal of KDF some of which are very good at navigating any kind of terrain. It appears they were waiting for reinforcements if reports of recent troop movement from Isiolo to the Somalia border are anything to go by. The tragedy with this is that they have given the enemy ample time to regroup and even forcefully recruit more fighters into their rag tag militia. I think this was a miscalculation.
Those conversant with the Kenya Somalia border will tell you that we have military bases at Kiunga, Hulugho and Liboi not forgetting the navy at Lamu and Kiunga. If the battalions had been deployed at the same time, the KDF would have overrun the militia and by now be at the outskirts of Kismayu. Ras Kamboni that the PM announced had been captured much later is barely twenty kilometres from Kiunga military base same as Kolbio another twenty kilometres from Hulugho military base.
We also need to be careful at what kind of military support Kenya gets from her friends. Any help from western powers, especially America, has to be covert. Al Shaabab can easily rally Somalis behind them if America was to be directly involved in the conflict and the outcome of such a rallying cry is anybody’s guess. It doesn’t do any good when the Nation Newspaper screams in its headline of America ‘joining’ Kenya in bombarding the enemy strongholds.
Maadam maji tushayavulia, lazima tuyaoge. We are already in the conflict and pulling back at this stage is out of question. To the patriotic Kenyans, we need to give our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters out there in the battle front all the moral support they need during this time of defending our territorial integrity from a rag tag militia and their supporters whose asante ya punda ni mateke.
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Post by amunra on Oct 25, 2011 20:08:49 GMT 3
I tend to agree with one Francis Atwoli, that the govt makes decisions casually lol. atwoli at 5:28 ://www.youtube.com/user/NTVKenya#p/c/626E5CA3143C96C1/1/ID_Oe2AQohw
Going to war At the moment ni ushenzi.That border with somalia is going no where and alshabab will morph into somethng else If kenya was vulnerable before, now it gives more impetus to the al shabbab, some random grouping to attack nairobi
My opinons
1. The government would have secured the porus border by infact setting a military zone from within our borders,if that means putting up a buffer zone with the refugee camp moved into it too. Strategically this would even enable assistance from un peacekeeping and amisom in maintianing a buffer zone
at the very extreme a wall or perimeter a la mexico/us border.It doesnt come cheap but the same money being used now,would cater for it
2. Incursions, attacks and securing vital intallements would have been better handled by special elite units army and police and the intelligence.. and ofcourse drones from allied forces
3. As much as i am patroticm if kenya was to learn from war mongers in the Hegemony of the day, their leader anounces the war at the backdrop of high diplomatic offensive with its allies,congress..how does kenya attack and then go for diplomacy, approval from parliment, really after?.. ..this would have been the best moment for vp to have done shuttle diplomacyfor funds and support,lack of strategic foresight..as atwoli says evrything in kenya is done casually.
Gaitho,Miguna have a point on the head of the snake..Eastleigh and the money supply? unfortunately you will find the same leadership and those calling for war are in bed with the snake..
Never too late to retreat and restrategise. No need for young career soldiers to die for casual decisions
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Post by morimax on Oct 25, 2011 20:12:20 GMT 3
It doesn't help much that Commander In Chief is dead quiet and snoring his was through this. People are just ropokaring bila direction. Who is in charge of this operation? Is it Saitoti, is it Haji or Orwa Ojode? Has Kibaki told Kenyans what is going on? Read more: jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=5999&page=3#ixzz1boX6ngPtAdongo,Listen to who is cordinating this operation now. Very interesting. I'm also concerned that the commander in chief has goone quiet. But I'm afraid that if things turn Elephant then he has somebody for the public to blame, as usual. I hope and pray that this operation succeeds. Remember, He was mentioned in court that he was responsible for 2007/2008 issues.
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Post by adongo23456 on Oct 25, 2011 20:31:59 GMT 3
It doesn't help much that Commander In Chief is dead quiet and snoring his was through this. People are just ropokaring bila direction. Who is in charge of this operation? Is it Saitoti, is it Haji or Orwa Ojode? Has Kibaki told Kenyans what is going on? Read more: jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=5999&page=3#ixzz1boX6ngPtAdongo,Listen to who is cordinating this operation now. Very interesting. I'm also concerned that the commander in chief has goone quiet. But I'm afraid that if things turn Elephant then he has somebody for the public to blame, as usual. I hope and pray that this operation succeeds. Remember, He was mentioned in court that he was responsible for 2007/2008 issues. It looks like they are making up things as they go along. Mara they were invited to help. Mara they are defending the country as a matter of national right and responsibility. This is like Hillary Clinton running America's wars. That is the job of the president. He has to tell Kenyans what Kenyan troops are doing in Somalia, what their mission is and then ask the country to stand with the soldiers and the mission. That way the president takes full responsibility for the operation and leaves less room for mischief and propaganda from the other side. You cannot sleep walk through a war the way Kibaki is trying to do by outsourcing his duties to Haji, Wetangula etc. Those are guys who should go on their missions and report to the president not hold press conferences at the Airport to try to justify the war. You do not justify wars after you start. You do that before and prepare the country for whatever comes down the pipe. The armed forces of Kenya is not a private army of the president. He is given the powers by the Kenya people to be the CIC and the CIC has a duty to the soldiers and to the citizens to approach something like this with absolute caution.
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Post by job on Oct 25, 2011 23:04:07 GMT 3
Things may turn out ugly in this "we are helping our neighbours and protecting our country" Somali war. If it ends up to be that ugly, who is going to take responsibility? The comander in chief, or is it the minister for defence and his foreign affairs counterpart, or is it the prime minister, or the committee cordinating, or is the tfq?
On this I'm afriad the prime minister may be set up again, to take responsibility, just incase it fails. Bearing in mind that the somali president is already distancing himself, Kenya somali Mps are against somali harrasment in Kenya, and with the granade attacks taking place. H.E the president and comander has gone quiet since then, hopefully giving orders, but a public face for this war is being crafted, in the name of prime minister. Is RAO being tricked again into this? as was done with MAU restoration, and as was tried with MIGINGO?Watch this NTV clips, and listen to the achievement of the delegation that went to somali. Listen to how the two prime ministers are cordinating the affairs..... careful enough not to mention the president. That is how Kibaki (aka Gen. Kaguoya) has operated throughout his entire public life...sitting at the fence and waiting to see where the chips fall. The FACT is - both principals have fully endorsed and embraced this misguided war. They are falling over each other to impress the US, Britons and French. I can bet you they're both doing so for quite different reasons. Meanwhile as the WAR proceeds, one principal is conspicuously silent, the other is vocal. Someone guessed that the silent one may soon be pricked into issuing a statement through mounting public comments.
I can speculate that the silence may not just be part of the usual trademark of fence sitting...but for more serious reasons (see below). Independent reports (such as Peter Gastrow's report posted by tnk; Jeremy Scahill's report "Blowback in Somalia"; or the UN Monitoring group report on Somalia; or the two Africa Confidential reports) all indicate that TOP al Shabab and other Somalia based militia are using Kenya (Nairobi & Mombasa especially) as a sanctuary haven for family residence , investments and coordination. There is no way al Shabab and Somali-Pirate leadership can find safe haven in Kenya unless they are in bed with top Kenyan security honchos and State House handlers around the same commander in chief leading the current Kenyan incursion. All these contradictions (doing business with militias and pirates at night - while fighting them by day-time) calls for a heavy dose of silence from the C.i.C. So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Kaguoya's statement. Many Kenyans have asked why Kaguoya can't lobby Parliament to authorize freezing of assets of these al Shabab, pirates and other militia leaders holding vast commercial enterprises and real estate empires in Kenya. That's the more relevant 'fight' for many Kenyans. Conspicuous silence has been the answer. We all know it takes two to Tango. Peter Gastrow's Termite report posted above indicates that al Shabab is also doing profiteering Tango with the drug traffickers in Kenya (probably including the well known flamboyant one with filial links to State House). The report explicitly states that the al-Shabaab-controlled-port of Kismaayo,whose capture is the main objective of the Kenya military incursion, is now the major entry point for drugs smuggled into Kenya. Cocaine from South America and heroin from Asia’s Golden Crescent and Golden Triangle are smuggled into Somalia through Kismaayo and transported as sugar or rice aboard trucks into Kenya.
Peter Gastrow's 2011 report It has been noted that the US (Drug Enforcement Agency) - DEA has now set up a big office in Nairobi. When we repeatedly urge for an interrogation of the symbiotic relationship between al Shabab's leadership and Kenya's own security establishment, there's cause. The decision to set up the DEA office was informed by (per same report): The US acknowledges that the decision was informed by the fact that drugs passing through Kenya are consumed in the US. In addition to countering drug trafficking, the DEA’s presence in the country was also intended to limit drugs-driven corruption prevalent in Kenya’s “law enforcement, judiciary and political institutions.” Probably the Prime Minister knows it's almost impossible to succesfully interrogate our corrupt & sophisticated security institution...thus his support for the military incursion...to kill these shadowy networks that even influence Kenya's politics. Granted, I want these networks killed....by asset freezes on properties of the bad guys...not by war! My problem with this war approach is the anticipated collateral damage...(influx of millions more Somali immigrants, arms, etc; import of al Shabab terrorism; a protracted expensive war etc)... There are more reasons why the deadly networks should be killed. In fact, the Gastrow report states that Kenya is also losing tens if not hundreds of billions of shillings (unpaid taxes & duty) through the smuggling of counterfeit goods (imported from India and China through al-Shabaab controlled Kismaayo port then into Kenya across the Kenya-Somalia border). This illegal trade bifurcation is denying Mombasa Port business and our tax collectors revenue. The counterfeit goods are also bypassing the Kenya Bureau of Standards testing for quality. In the end, we are ending up with cheap counterfeit medicines, batteries, biro pens, auto parts, electronics, cell phones, cosmetics, etc flooding our market across the Somalia border and directly benefiting al Shabaab. Eastleigh, Isiolo, Garissa and Wajir are ground-zero markets for these cheap products that sell like hot cakes but can't last expected durability.. About 80 percent of all malaria drugs in the Kenyan market are counterfeits and therefore harmful to users,22 and counterfeit drugs account for $130 million in sales annually.23
Approximately 25 percent of cigarettes smoked in the East African region are smuggled and illicit, causing governments to lose $100 million in taxes.24Networks of cross-border smugglers target fast moving and highly profitable goods to import into Kenya illegally, including sugar, motor vehicles, electronics, pharmaceuticals, batteries, ballpoint pens, and cosmetics. Thousands of bags of sugar are smuggled into Kenya from Somalia every day, enriching Somali warlords.25
Well-connected businesspeople and top politicians have exacted a strong authority over business and smuggling activities at the port. They constitute a close network that includes Chinese, Somalis, and Pakistanis, as well as a Kenyan woman linked in the past to a top politician, an assistant minister, three members of Parliament, several political activists with connections to senior politicians, and two former members of Parliament...
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