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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 28, 2011 16:33:07 GMT 3
Kamale and Destiny:
Please take care, lest you smash your chests in with all that strenous and vigorous jongoistic thumping.
Jukwaa is a democratic forum encouraging and promoting all views including the lunatic outpourings of those who want to convince us that what millions of unemployed, famine ravished and underprivileged Kenyans need right now is an expensive, illegal and unnecessary military misadventure in Somalia.
Why don't you marshal your troops, to use a martial term, instead of all this accumulated slime and spittle you are throwing in our direction.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi
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Post by mank on Oct 28, 2011 16:52:43 GMT 3
Kamale and Destiny:Please take care, lest you smash your chests in with all that strenous and vigorous jongoistic thumping.
Jukwaa is a democratic forum encouraging and promoting all views including the lunatic outpourings of those who want to convince us that what millions of unemployed, famine ravished and underprivileged Kenyans need right now is an expensive, illegal and unnecessary military misadventure in Somalia.
Why don't you marshal your troops, to use a martial term, instead of all this accumulated slime and spittle you are throwing in our direction.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi As for me, I am anti-war. However I am not fanatically anti-war. I recognize the fact that going to war is not a simple decision to make. A war entails a big price for peace. I can only hope that enough assessment was made, of what we stood to lose in terms of peace by not going to war, versus what we lose and gain in the same objective when we go to war. In such a calculus what is at stake in the status quo is what rules more, since the outcome of war is not known with certainty - so there must be sufficient danger in not going to war, to make it reasonable to go to war. I think an accounting of the factors considered in going to war is what we need. Black and white judgements over war decisions are either pretentious or naive.
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Post by adongo23456 on Oct 28, 2011 16:55:01 GMT 3
I guess unless one is in Somalia fighting he or she should not be supporting the war - at least according to Adongo. BTW one of the individuals here who was shouting loudest, "Our space has been invaded where is Kibaki?" (in regrads to "mijinjo") It is a such a predictable lot, now they have changed tune, pulling out all kinds of sorry conspiracy theories, waving the katiba to suit them, wanting to be given the war plan; just plain pathetic!! I am still waiting for him to tell us what the alternative is to deal with al crappo. And stating that an act is not a solution, is not providing actionable alternative. But then again after reading their posts I doubt it. I also think we have a USA vs. Iraq situation, but 1991. Shifta,If there is one thing I hold in complete contempt, it is those who engage their mouths or keyboards and refuse to engage anything above their shoulders. Now you are busy here asking adongo what his suggestions are about what is turning out to be a fiasco in Somalia and go on with the usual pathetic stereotypes. If you read my post in between firing all those rounds of rockets at al shabaab, you probably noticed that adongo ogony about seven days ago today actually gave his opinion and views on what needed to be done. I actually based my 2 cents on a very serious discussion I had with a friend Prof. Yusuf, a Somali academic visiting Canada and headed back to Somalia in a month. Below is what I posted based on that discussion. Here we go: This was first posted Friday 22, 2011. I found this chilling and a grim reminder that we are dealing with some very scary group of completely ruthless characters. www.hiiraan.com/news2/2011/Oct/somali_militia_claims_slaughter_of_african_union_soldiers.aspxSo far it seems the hubris of the Kenyan army has died down. They understand this is a tough mission. I had an interesting discussion with three friends of mine who are of Somali background. One guy Prof. Yusuf is a well known figure in the academic world and a leading researcher in Somalia where he taught at the Mogadishu University for more than twenty five years. He is also well known within the political circles including the current PM of TFG whom he told me was a lecturer at New York University before he joined politics. Prof. Yusuf is headed to Somalia in a week. These are the things they told me. 1. On the whole most people are OK with Kenya coming in to help deal with the AL Shabaab menace. 2. Many people are also worried that Kenya may not have a full understanding of what they are walking into. But they hope Kenya working with TFG will help TFG subdue Al Shabaab forces mainly in Kismayu and in the so called Jubbaland. 3. Kenya must not in any way shape or form appear to have any territorial ambitions in Somalia. They said it does not matter how many times the Kenyan government says that. They said all that matters is for any respected Somali leader to denounce the "invasion" and declare war and 10 million Somalis will be ready to defend their country whether there is any real territorial ambition or NOT. Nobody will care for the details and apparently that is what doomed the Ethiopians and Americans. 4. To avoid any doubts the Prof. particularly emphasized that Kenya need to set a clear time line and clear targets militarily and in working with the TNG. I told them it is hard to set time lines in war. They said it is up to Kenyans but a loose ended war can easily be manupilated into an invasion by local leaders and once the tap of Somali nationalism is opened even the clans will close ranks and fight the enemy. According Prof. Yusuf taking over Kismayu seaport and airport and handing them over to the TFG should be the primary military target. 5. The folks told me Al Shahaab never fights in the open fields. In fact they said Al Shabaab is an idea a concept and not some standing militias. Al Shabaab militias will typically melt into thin air, remove the head gear and be drinking tea at the markets. They will be the first to welcome the Kenyan soldiers and thank them for kicking out those bad Al Shabaabs from the area. Once they melt into an urban area like Kismayu those same people who were greeting the incoming soldiers are the ones who will blow them up. Basically it is trecherous messing with Al Shabaab in the urban centres. That is a job for the TFG to do with their own Somali militias. Just take the seaport away from the pirates and the funders of chaos and take the airport and get out of there and hold your border. That is their advice. I am sure the Kenyan authorities get better advice and intelligence reports. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Note:With the benefit of the events of the last week I would like to draw people's attention to point 3, 4 and 5. In terms of point three we are already facing that problem. The Prof. warned me that calling press conferences every day to deny any idea that this is an invasion with territorial ambitions will not help. It is what happens on the ground that matters. As of now the US involvement is already a thorny issue and furious denials from Kenya and the US just fuels more confusion since soldiers on the ground have already admitted US involvement and Somali folks are not all blind. The trouble here is that if the Somali population comes to the conclusion that they are under an invasion that includes Americans and Kenyans this war could turn very nasty and all the chest thumping I see here will look just plain silly. We are on the verge of that major turn in the conflict. Pay very close attention to that. Bumbling on this is not an option. Point 4 in the Prof's free advice is to have clear military mission and target and make it clear once that is achieved you are out. So far we are all over the map from chasing Al shabaab to negotiating with them to capturing Kismayu etc. The whole thing is as clear as mud. Well war is never clear but your mission has to be. Point 5 from my buddies there was take the seaport and the airport in Kismayu hand it over to the TFG and get the hell out of their and protect your borders. Remember my Somali friends who gave those ideas (instructions is a better word) are very much proKenya, they hate Al Shabaab for ruining their country, they can tolerate TFG but told me they are utterly useless and are hoping with some help from Kenya the TFG can get some muscle and at least start crawling before they can walk. But there still remains a big question. Even if Kenya grabbed Kismayu seaport and airport and handed it over to the TFG, how long can they hold it? The real hope according to these guys is that Al shabaab may lose their cash cows which they told me is piracy, drug smuggling, imports of cars sugar etc (all with no duties at Kismayu sea port) and apparently charcoal. Al shabaab controls the entire charcoal business and have cleared almost all of Juba Forest. They get an estimated $ 60 milliona year from charcoal alone. Al shabaabs money from Arab countries including Libya is already gone thanks to the Arab Spring. So Al is not in that great shape and that is why Kenya's main enemy is likely to be Somali nationalism which could turn Al Shabaab fighters into national heroes with everybody joining for their own reasons. Those are the ideas from those buddies of mine. So you tell me what your sense of solutions are apart from firing rockets from your keyboard and mouthing off tribal innuendoes. I am all ears.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 28, 2011 16:59:13 GMT 3
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Post by b6k on Oct 28, 2011 17:16:55 GMT 3
Mr Thorpe is right. Lapsset must be protected. Also, planning of Al Shabaab policing exercise probably goes back to 2009 when Al Shabaab declared a holy war on Kenya. Nothing wrong in planning ahead & striking when a plausible reason to attack is provided on a silver platter. Kismayo or bust!
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Post by kamalet on Oct 28, 2011 17:42:05 GMT 3
Kamale and Destiny:Please take care, lest you smash your chests in with all that strenous and vigorous jongoistic thumping. Jukwaa is a democratic forum encouraging and promoting all views including the lunatic outpourings of those who want to convince us that what millions of unemployed, famine ravished and underprivileged Kenyans need right now is an expensive, illegal and unnecessary military misadventure in Somalia. Why don't you marshal your troops, to use a martial term, instead of all this accumulated slime and spittle you are throwing in our direction. Onyango Oloo Nairobi Oloo We do not agree with your views, but still respect them and you without suggesting that all you are spewing is silly fecal matter. I would appreciate if you reciprocated by respecting our (Destiny and mine) without referring to our views as slime and spittle. All I can say there are many ways of trying to silence people and this is certainly one of them! So let the war mongers and pacifists (etc) of Jukwaa be! Kamale(Briefly in) Nairobi
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emali
Full Member
Posts: 219
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Post by emali on Oct 28, 2011 19:36:00 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on Oct 28, 2011 20:31:38 GMT 3
Folks,
Before I go there is one interesting thing my Somali friends I was talking about in the previous post told me which makes a lot of sense. They told me there are 9,000 or so AMASON soldiers. All they do is guard the airport and the compound of the TFG leader. They get paid $ 1,000.00 a month. The Somali soldiers working for TFG are lucky to get $ 20.00 a month because the TFG has an annual budget of $ 1 million which is about Kshs 100 million. That is not enough even for one Kenyan minister's piggy bank or state robbery account.
There has been suggestion that if the huge budget for AMASON soldiers paid for doing nothing was handed over to the TFG they could easily pay 20,000 soldiers with a bout $ 500.00 amonth and they will show Al Shabaab dust in a matter of months. But any mention of handing over the AMASON money to TFG to deploy its own troops will send you in the cooler if Museveni and other AU top honchos ever hear that. Museveni chased a TFG rep out of Kampala when he made such a suggestion. The AU and African leaders are happy with this useless arrangement and it is part of the real problem in Somalia. Think about that. In fact even Kenya would spend less than 1/10 of what they are spending in this war to nowhere if they just armed soldiers of TFG.
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Post by shifta on Oct 29, 2011 1:32:12 GMT 3
AO so why in the heck are you against the Kenyan incursion to flush out the bastards? You come across as conflicted. One moment waving the katiba, ati parliament was not consulted, next moment laying out long treatise why and how to do it. Take a stand and stick with it; this is like trying to nail jello to the wall.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 29, 2011 10:22:34 GMT 3
Folks, Before I go there is one interesting thing my Somali friends I was talking about in the previous post told me which makes a lot of sense. They told me there are 9,000 or so AMASON soldiers. All they do is guard the airport and the compound of the TFG leader. They get paid $ 1,000.00 a month. The Somali soldiers working for TFG are lucky to get $ 20.00 a month because the TFG has an annual budget of $ 1 million which is about Kshs 100 million. That is not enough even for one Kenyan minister's piggy bank or state robbery account. There has been suggestion that if the huge budget for AMASON soldiers paid for doing nothing was handed over to the TFG they could easily pay 20,000 soldiers with a bout $ 500.00 amonth and they will show Al Shabaab dust in a matter of months. But any mention of handing over the AMASON money to TFG to deploy its own troops will send you in the cooler if Museveni and other AU top honchos ever hear that. Museveni chased a TFG rep out of Kampala when he made such a suggestion. The AU and African leaders are happy with this useless arrangement and it is part of the real problem in Somalia. Think about that. In fact even Kenya would spend less than 1/10 of what they are spending in this war to nowhere if they just armed soldiers of TFG. Me thinks you are getting too much of a o sided story and you seem to be believing everything you hear!
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Post by merlin on Oct 29, 2011 10:26:52 GMT 3
WarmongerAnother town falls to Kenyan military By NATION REPORTERS Posted Friday, October 28 2011 at 22:24An Al-Shabaab training centre in Burgabo, a village deep within southern Somalia, was bombed and captured by Kenya’s and Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government forces. Burgabo has an estimated population of 300 people. Military spokesman, Maj Emmanuel Chirchir, told the Nation that the troops cleared Burgabo without any contact with the Al-Shabaab. Source: www.nation.co.ke/News/Another+town+falls+to+Kenyan+military+/-/1056/1263666/-/s2bb91z/-/index.html
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Post by merlin on Oct 29, 2011 11:32:36 GMT 3
Warriors and Problem solvers
We are now discussing the qualities of war (is it legal, how to strategise, beating the bastards, standing with our man and woman out there, what to do with the bear’s skin – Kismayo -) however the real question we should answer is how to provide security and protect Kenya’s soil and economic / cultural interest. Maybe this war adventure is risky and will not deliver any improved security either protection. It could bring the opposite at a very high cost.
War is for warriors to prove their braveness. War is not for solution seekers as war rarely is a tool that leads to change, improvement and victory. Almost all change for the better comes from within (toppling the Berlin wall, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt,) and Somalia is not ready for internal change.
Somalia is our neighbour and should be supported in their positive development and contained at their negative aspects. Kenya fails in containing the negative aspects and trades intensive with Al-Shabaab for illegal imports from Kismayo, plays a role in the transfer of Pirate’s ransom money and is probably involved in drugs deals.
This is a Kenyan problem which Kenya has to deal with. The excuse of a long stretched porous border between Somalia and Kenya is not valid. There are not many useable road structures between Kismayo and Kenyan and aerial survey could easily detect transports. It is our wish not to see the balk in our eye, make some quick money corrupting ourselves and when tourist stay away point fingers to someone else. Kenya needs less warriors, more problem solvers, and has to shore-up its integrity.
Shifta
Adongo has already given an answer with many valid arguments on your question: AO so why in the heck are you against the Kenyan incursion to flush out the bastards?
I think he will give you more valid arguments as he is a problem solver like many other contributors on JUKWAA.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 29, 2011 11:41:09 GMT 3
Like priests preaching Jesus Christ in some evangelical church, here comes another one wearing the same cloth and saying the same thing.....illegal...illegal, oh and by the way it is not that we do not support our men and women....we actually do though their actions are illegal! Now tell me if this is not hypocrisy of the highest order? www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Let+us+not+allow+our+rights+to+be+degraded+/-/440808/1263372/-/i1enhv/-/index.htmlMaina Kiai joins that other group that thinks that if you do not criticise, then you are on the wrong side! If indeed the action is illegal, then our men and women must be withdrawn immediately for their actions would be tantamount to obeying a illegal order from their commanders. Mu considered view is that this opposition to the action against Alshabaaboons is driven by fear of losing than any concern for the law. I firmly believe if the main consideration was the constitutionality of the action we would have had these activists running to court to have the action declared illegal - but they also know such views do not resonate with the majority of Kenyans. We have had some ridiculous applications to court for interpretation of the constitution, so perhaps Maina Kiai as a lawyer will run to court and complain rather than whine to Kenyans and do nothing!
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Post by b6k on Oct 29, 2011 15:12:46 GMT 3
Let's face it constitutional or not the war is on & is enjoying public support of the majority by a wide margin. Kenya Somalis support it. Southern Somalis support it. Even the master of illegal wars, the USA, have our back on this so what's the fuss? For those who can only accept what RAO says, even he has backed this action & is asking the international community to step up to the plate. www.rnw.nl/africa/article/odinga-calls-international-support-troops-advanceThis action was long overdue. It should've been done in 2009 but we've been too busy following the PNU-ODM kabuki theater to have bothered with matters that really affect the nation.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 30, 2011 11:43:43 GMT 3
Let's face it constitutional or not the war is on & is enjoying public support of the majority by a wide margin. Kenya Somalis support it. Southern Somalis support it. Even the master of illegal wars, the USA, have our back on this so what's the fuss? Strange argument indeed. There was a time when a majority of White Americans supported slavery. There was a time when a majority of White South Africans supported apartheid. In 1982, hundreds of thousands of Kenyans were marching to the drumbeat of politicians supporting the insane calls that ex-airforce soldiers and university students " wachomwe na ndege zao". In 1989, there was no public opposition to the Kenya government edict announcing that Kenyans of Somali extraction should be discriminated against through "special screening". Some people live by the saying that " bendera hufuata upepo" (the flag follows the wind) and would therefore gladly slaughter and cook their own parents and children for dinner if the state ordered them to do so. Fortunately, the ones that history remembers are those courageous ones who, despite their paltry numbers, insist on the truth, insist on principle, on justice, on morality, on dignity, on doing things right. In Kenya we know that not everyone spoke out against Kenyatta and Moi. Not everyone denounced repression, detention without trial, corruption, tribalism and so on. The majority were content and are still content with being the flag that follows the wind. That conformist majority is well represented here in Jukwaa. Some of us choose to be different. We opt to be the obnoxious party poopers and the pesky sh*t disturbers, loudly pointing out, like that kid in folklore, that the King is prancing around in his birthday suit. Onyango Oloo Nairobi
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 30, 2011 12:13:54 GMT 3
Mr Thorpe is right. Lapsset must be protected. Also, planning of Al Shabaab policing exercise probably goes back to 2009 when Al Shabaab declared a holy war on Kenya. Nothing wrong in planning ahead & striking when a plausible reason to attack is provided on a silver platter. Kismayo or bust! B6K:What do you think of the news report below: Kenya's decision to get involved with one of Africa's most intractable war zones, a failed state that hasn't had a government for two decades, was a "spur of the moment" one, Karangi said Saturday.
Speaking at a news conference in Nairobi, the Kenyan capital, he said the decision was made in early October. Twelve days later, troops were in Somalia, he said.
"Some people mentioned that this entire operation was preplanned, [that] it had been on the table for many, many months and years, and the answer is no. We acted as a country on the spur of the moment," he said.www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-kenya-somalia-20111030,0,4326630.story
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Post by jakaswanga on Oct 30, 2011 12:48:40 GMT 3
Let's face it constitutional or not the war is on & is enjoying public support of the majority by a wide margin. Kenya Somalis support it. Southern Somalis support it. Even the master of illegal wars, the USA, have our back on this so what's the fuss? Strange argument indeed. Onyango Oloo Nairobi [/b][/quote] Oloo, That comment is far below Jukwaa's b6k's punching power! The man is obviously having a mental day off! Go slow on him. I was waiting for him to delete it and apologise for coming drunk on Jukwaa! b6k man, what are you really talking about? not seeing what the fuss about is about?
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Post by jakaswanga on Oct 30, 2011 12:53:40 GMT 3
Looking at a youtube rendition, honestly Karangi looked to me too fat and lazy! too lazy to even stand up and display his pregnant belly during the briefing! He said we will be there until our border is secure, which is not definate. Kibaki on the other hand seemed at pains in Australia to say the objectives are nearly all met and the army will coming home.
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Post by b6k on Oct 30, 2011 16:49:38 GMT 3
Let's face it constitutional or not the war is on & is enjoying public support of the majority by a wide margin. Kenya Somalis support it. Southern Somalis support it. Even the master of illegal wars, the USA, have our back on this so what's the fuss? Strange argument indeed. There was a time when a majority of White Americans supported slavery. There was a time when a majority of White South Africans supported apartheid. In 1982, hundreds of thousands of Kenyans were marching to the drumbeat of politicians supporting the insane calls that ex-airforce soldiers and university students " wachomwe na ndege zao". In 1989, there was no public opposition to the Kenya government edict announcing that Kenyans of Somali extraction should be discriminated against through "special screening". Some people live by the saying that " bendera hufuata upepo" (the flag follows the wind) and would therefore gladly slaughter and cook their own parents and children for dinner if the state ordered them to do so. Fortunately, the ones that history remembers are those courageous ones who, despite their paltry numbers, insist on the truth, insist on principle, on justice, on morality, on dignity, on doing things right. In Kenya we know that not everyone spoke out against Kenyatta and Moi. Not everyone denounced repression, detention without trial, corruption, tribalism and so on. The majority were content and are still content with being the flag that follows the wind. That conformist majority is well represented here in Jukwaa. Some of us choose to be different. We opt to be the obnoxious party poopers and the pesky sh*t disturbers, loudly pointing out, like that kid in folklore, that the King is prancing around in his birthday suit. Onyango Oloo NairobiOO, you're absolutely right on all counts. That said, my take on the Al Shabaab action remains it was long overdue. Kibaki may not be working but like a broken clock, he can still give you the correct time twice a day. If we consider his roads investment as the first thing he's done accurately (save for over investing on Thika Road) then the Somali action is the second.
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Post by b6k on Oct 30, 2011 16:55:00 GMT 3
Mr Thorpe is right. Lapsset must be protected. Also, planning of Al Shabaab policing exercise probably goes back to 2009 when Al Shabaab declared a holy war on Kenya. Nothing wrong in planning ahead & striking when a plausible reason to attack is provided on a silver platter. Kismayo or bust! B6K:What do you think of the news report below: Kenya's decision to get involved with one of Africa's most intractable war zones, a failed state that hasn't had a government for two decades, was a "spur of the moment" one, Karangi said Saturday.
Speaking at a news conference in Nairobi, the Kenyan capital, he said the decision was made in early October. Twelve days later, troops were in Somalia, he said.
"Some people mentioned that this entire operation was preplanned, [that] it had been on the table for many, many months and years, and the answer is no. We acted as a country on the spur of the moment," he said.www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-kenya-somalia-20111030,0,4326630.story OO, you advised me against being gullible & accepting government propaganda a while ago. Do you honestly believe the good general when he makes such a statement? Consider this the equivalent of a poker face when the cards (troops) have been dealt (committed to the war theater).
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Post by b6k on Oct 30, 2011 17:02:21 GMT 3
Strange argument indeed. Onyango Oloo Nairobi [/b][/quote] Oloo, That comment is far below Jukwaa's b6k's punching power! The man is obviously having a mental day off! Go slow on him. I was waiting for him to delete it and apologise for coming drunk on Jukwaa! b6k man, what are you really talking about? not seeing what the fuss about is about?[/quote] Jakaswanga no such luck. I'm also saddened by the fact that I support this illegal war that has been fully sanctioned by our imperialist "ally". Incidentally just as you once abandoned your waragi I haven't imbibed for ages
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Post by roughrider on Oct 31, 2011 9:41:44 GMT 3
I notice a lot of hypocrisy and recklessness in this thread. Perhaps it is because Kenya has never been involved in 'wars' like this. Perhaps it is ignorance.
I prefer to offer my unreserved support to the troops. We are already committed to battle and our patriotic duty is to support the troops and boost morale. That is where we are. Questioning the battle and its basis post ipso facto is futile and defeatist.
The mission is to get rid of the Al Shabaab menace and create a safe corridor of at least 100 miles at the border. Multiple provocations that undermined our economy led directly to this 'war'. It is therefore justified under the law and the TFG allowed Kenyan troops. In fact the battles are being prosecuted jointly with TFG soldiers leading on.
As with any good defence force, the Kenyans have always prepared simulated battle scenarios in the even that they had to intervene in Somalia, Uganda etc... these plans are always ready. So to that extent there is always a plan of some sort. So arguments that this cannot be a response to provocation because there was prior planning is ignorant. We expect the army to be always ready at a moments notice.
Even if it is necessary to annex parts of Somalia, or set up Azania, Jubaland or whatever it takes to guarantee safety and peace of at our common borders, then so be it.
I am quite amazed at online pundits who now claim know more about military manoeuvre and legal technicality than the army itself. I am equally bemused to see extremist propaganda peddled by the likes of Oloo as some sort of scare tactic.
Ati the Al Shabaab fight a guerilla war and so nobody can win. Ati the Al Shabaab slaughtered Americans and so we should be scared... blah blah blah.
And you did not think the military knew that already? And you think you are so clever that you are the only one, who, in the space of a blog can synthesise all the important issues and questions in the only way they can be interpreted? Let us learn to appreciate our limits.
Terrorism is about fear. We are supposed to meekly hide under our beds and cower in fear, knowing that our cities and neighbourhoods are not safe... that is what the terrorists want.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 31, 2011 10:55:23 GMT 3
I notice a lot of hypocrisy and recklessness in this thread. Perhaps it is because Kenya has never been involved in 'wars' like this. Perhaps it is ignorance..... Even if it is necessary to annex parts of Somalia, or set up Azania, Jubaland or whatever it takes to guarantee safety and peace of at our common borders, then so be it. I am quite amazed at online pundits who now claim know more about military manoeuvre and legal technicality than the army itself. I am equally bemused to see extremist propaganda peddled by the likes of Oloo as some sort of scare tactic. Ati the Al Shabaab fight a guerilla war and so nobody can win. Ati the Al Shabaab slaughtered Americans and so we should be scared... blah blah blah. Roughrider:I am glad I inspired you to make the outlandish remarks above. On Jukwaa, we discuss everything-from aadvarks to zoroastrianism. There is no requirement that you must have a doctorate in earth science in order to expound on climate change. You do not have to be a neurosurgeon in order to give your views on the survival rates of Kenyan cancer survivors. You do not have to be a Jesuit monk in order to react to the Pope's latest pronouncement. You do not have to be a biological female in order to talk about the feminization of poverty. And it is not a must that you have to slaughter human beings in the military butchery for you to talk about the pros and cons of going to war. For your information, most of the books on military strategy have been written by civilians. Your attempt to foreclose debate on the misguided Kenyan military misadventure in Somalia is therefore destined to be a futile and dismal stab at gagging dissenting voices who happen to share the same passionate love for our mother Kenya with you and all those raucous flag waving war mongers. What is "extremist propaganda"? "Extreme" from who? Who is Onyango Oloo trying to scare?I was only telling the truth.The only people who are scared of the truth are LIARS. Who is Onyango Oloo trying to scare?I was only upholding the constitution.The only people who want to trash the constitution are people who are against the sovereignty of the Kenyan people. Who is Onyango Oloo trying to scare?I was only propagating justice and the rule of law.The only people who are against justice and the rule of law are dictators and criminals. Who is Onyango Oloo trying to scare?I was only pushing for Africans to be wary of foreign imperialist machinations in Africa.The only people who find this uncomfortable are imperialists and their local neo-colonial collaborators. It is interesting to see you, Roughrider, to clamber aboard this platform called Jukwaa to trash it, even as you simultaneously use it to propagate your outlandish views. Are you not the real hypocrite?As for the resilience of the Kenyan military and the nuisance value of Al-Shabaab, well, those are PRACTICAL questions which will be decided on the ground.I challenge you to revisit this very discussion in the next eight months so we can talk on the basis of actual outcomes not mere conjecture. Onyango Oloo Nairobi
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Post by merlin on Oct 31, 2011 11:47:35 GMT 3
When stuck in a hole; keep digging.
It seems to be a common reaction of average people to overcome challenges. We set our mind on going to war and as roughrider state: I prefer to offer my unreserved support to the troops. We are already committed to battle and our patriotic duty is to support the troops and boost morale. That is where we are. Questioning the battle and its basis post ipso facto is futile and defeatist. So we keep on digging till the end whatever this ‘end’ means.
Achieving safety and security is the motive for this war exercise. It is a fallacy; safety and security cannot be achieved with this war exercise. We may occupy Jubaland expand the Kenyan border a bit though intrusion on our safety and security does not recognises any geographical borders. Safety and security has to do how we as a society deal with lawlessness. People will be killed by criminal elements in our society - even by our state machinery - and by our extended cross boarder influence.
Well everyone is free to keep digging deeper their hole of fear. However bringing increased safety and security is up to brave people who dare to stick out their heads above the hole and discover the real source of danger and insecurity.
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Post by b6k on Oct 31, 2011 14:31:13 GMT 3
From Agwambo during press conference with Somali TFG PM when discussing Al Shabaab's effects on our economy & why we went to war:
"The cost of inaction is higher than the cost of action..." ~ RAO
That sums it up quite well...
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