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Post by einstein on Jun 11, 2012 3:49:10 GMT 3
......meanwhile, this is what Jah The Most High and The Most Compassionate says about THE WICKED for those who care to listen.......
NO WOMAN NO CRY RIDDIM (TWALA MIX)
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Jun 11, 2012 7:38:14 GMT 3
You could be right. Who knows for sure! Saitoti (& Ojode) held a very crucial docket at this season of political succession; one that deals directly with - peri-electoral security, provincial administration, and ICC cooperation (enforcement of any asset freeze &/or arrest orders)...If Saitoti wasn't drinking enough Koolaid to flow along; or if in fact his personal interests were in direct competition with the big plot; angling instead to benefit from his backyard competitor's ( Muthamaki's) woes...who knows. Nevertheless, the Mars Group write-up is a very sober & significant piece to pay attention to...if Kenyans are indeed committed to fighting impunity. Rumors doing rounds in Nairobi is that Saitoti was silenced because of his political ambition. Its said that he was bent on dividing the central province vote, that's why he was eliminated by...you know who. Ojode is said to be collateral damage. Mzee,These rumors yawa, they actually turn everything on its head. Actually in my village since yesterday evening, fingers had started pointing the exact opposite direction to what you have here. The talk is that, Jakom has been fearing that Saitoti's candidacy was taking away the Maa thus effectively locking him out of all RV counties given that UhuRuto have run away with the other non-Maa counties. The conspiracy theorists also have it that Orwa had to be take out for his independence and perceived collaboration with the enemy (read PNU). Interestingly, all these are given credence by our own discussion here some time ago. Remember these words? ----- There is information leaking from the corridors of power that President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga have held consultations and agreed on a mini-cabinet reshuffle that will be announced in the next few days, possibly while Raila is away on a visit to the USA.
One major casualty of this mini re-shuffle will be none other than Joshua Orwa Ojode, the fiercely independent ODM MP for Ndhiwa and loyal assistant minister for Assistant Minister for Internal Security.
Ojode has been deemed by most Kenyans as the defacto minister for internal security given that he has been answering most if not all questions of this sensitive docket in parliament for as long as the grand coalition has been in power. Ojode has done a good job of being loyal to his work in parliament and steering clear of deadly ODM politics in Luo Nyanza.
But recent events, more particularly the alleged assasination attempt of Prime Minister Raila Odinga and the alleged abduction of Gitobu Imanyara may have forced PM Odinga to consider effecting a change-of-guard in this sensitive docket. The PM has been asked to consider replacing Ojode as ODM's minister in this high profile docket that has raised Ojode's political and personal premium amongst his colleagues. President Kibaki, PM Odinga and most of senior cabinet ministers were in Ndhiwa to attend the funeral of Ojode's father but the President and most of his ministers totally snubbed President Museveni's visit to Kisumu in the same region.
[/u] jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6881#ixzz1xSJZQZZy
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Post by mzee on Jun 11, 2012 7:45:42 GMT 3
Ha
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man
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by man on Jun 11, 2012 9:38:46 GMT 3
I have really strange feelings about this chopper accident. This chopper was acquired I think this year and is reasonably new...so just wtf happened that it just falls off the sky 8 minutes after leaving Wilson? There is a strange feeling to this tragedy.These two gentlemen were tight and had an excellent working relationship, in fact the best partnership in the whole coalition. It may sound strange but its kinda befitting that these two buddies perished together. Going back to the strange feeling, who might want to eliminate these guys? Could it be the ongoing police reforms? Artur's saga and the related drug dealing? Extra judicial killings of youths? Etc etc. These men were privy to too much info. Im just speculating. My condolences goes to their loved ones.
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Post by destiny on Jun 11, 2012 9:43:23 GMT 3
I was watching NTV this morning where they were discussing about this crash. Some questions posed by Retired Captain Simiyu Werunga were:
1. Why were Saitoti allowed to fly in the same craft yet they headed the same crucial docket and with their deaths comes 'institutional loss' that very up to date information concerning internal ministry? Just like protocol dictates president and VP can't fly together sort of thing...
2. How experienced were these pilots? The senior the officials who are flying, the senior and experienced must be the pilots, that's the norm.
3. Just how old was the chopper despite being "new" in Govt terms. What's exactly the year of manufacture?
4. What's the distress call on the blackbox saying?
5. How was the weather when the crash happened, what does their flight log say? (log flight?)
6. We are told maintenance was carried out on that chopper a few months ago. What sort of maintenance was it according to the records?
7. What caused the loud explosion that was heard according to several witness accounts before the pilots lost control?
8. It's not very common for a chopper to crash and go up in flames, why didn't the pilots attempt to crash-land?
9. Why was the chopper flying so low yet from Wilson to Ngong it should have soared high up by then?
Those are some questions that investigators will be trying to unravel.
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Post by kamalet on Jun 11, 2012 10:42:05 GMT 3
I was watching NTV this morning where they were discussing about this crash. Some questions posed by Retired Captain Simiyu Werunga were: 1. Why were Saitoti allowed to fly in the same craft yet they headed the same crucial docket and with their deaths comes 'institutional loss' that very up to date information concerning internal ministry? Just like protocol dictates president and VP can't fly together sort of thing... 2. How experienced were these pilots? The senior the officials who are flying, the senior and experienced must be the pilots, that's the norm. 3. Just how old was the chopper despite being "new" in Govt terms. What's exactly the year of manufacture? 4. What's the distress call on the blackbox saying? 5. How was the weather when the crash happened, what does their flight log say? (log flight?) 6. We are told maintenance was carried out on that chopper a few months ago. What sort of maintenance was it according to the records? 7. What caused the loud explosion that was heard according to several witness accounts before the pilots lost control? 8. It's not very common for a chopper to crash and go up in flames, why didn't the pilots attempt to crash-land? 9. Why was the chopper flying so low yet from Wilson to Ngong it should have soared high up by then? Those are some questions that investigators will be trying to unravel. This Werunga guy is overrated by the media. He may have served in the military but he just cannot know everything hence the dumb questions above. If he wants to go the media as an expert, he should go to the media with the answers not questions! Many here in Jukwaa have already provided details of the chopper from its acquisition to the training of the pilots. So asking a question like "how old the chopper was...even though purchased this year" reeks of intellectual laziness for one claiming to be an expert! Our media owes us better than this mediocrity!
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Post by nereah on Jun 11, 2012 10:45:18 GMT 3
phil & all, i cant verify the authenticity of the photo in question but the star, yes, the star, has similar pictorial on its cover. meanwhile mzee kibaki and agwambo are due to preside over a special mps meeting at kicc ----a development that now warrants a new thread.
as kenyan morning talkshows notably ntv(currently on) are analysing the consequences of the tragedy on kenyan body politics, so should jukwaa. i have my own musings which i will share once we are done with this thread and start a new one. if time allows i will among other things sensationally reveal how saitoti never became the ldp's flagbearer in the high season that agwambo stayed out of the presidential race. note:did you know for instances that in many luo villages, you would find a bull named after saitoti? i speak for bondo where i am cooking and in gem where i was born. again,my heartfelt condolences to the loved ones of joshua and george.
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Post by destiny on Jun 11, 2012 11:24:30 GMT 3
"If he wants to go the media as an expert, he should go to the media with the answers not questions!"
@ KAMALE
Let's be fair to Werunga for heaven's sake! How on earth do you expect him to go to the media with ANSWERS to an accident that happened just yesterday yet he's not even involved in investigations unless he's an angel? He didn't simply pose those questions and left for tea, he talked a great length trying to demystify the aviation industry.
What he was doing was giving possible scenarios of what would cause such an accident since he's a trained pilot. I don't see why he should not be allowed to give his OWN views, which we do daily here in Jukwaa, furthermore these choppers are crashing from skies at an alarming rate costing lives!
About the chopper being "new" in Kenyan context, well don't we see "new" cars in latest number plates yet they are simply mitumba imports from Japan? Knowing how crazy and corrupt this govt is and how they bend rules to suit themselves, I don't see anything wrong with posing that question!
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Post by kamalet on Jun 11, 2012 11:40:31 GMT 3
"If he wants to go the media as an expert, he should go to the media with the answers not questions!"@ KAMALE Let's be fair to Werunga for heaven's sake! How on earth do you expect him to go to the media with ANSWERS to an accident that happened just yesterday yet he's not even involved in investigations unless he's an angel? He didn't simply pose those questions and left for tea, he talked a great length trying to demystify the aviation industry. What he was doing was giving possible scenarios of what would cause such an accident since he's a trained pilot. I don't see why he should not be allowed to give his OWN views, which we do daily here in Jukwaa, furthermore these choppers are crashing from skies at an alarming rate costing lives! About the chopper being "new" in Kenyan context, well don't we see "new" cars in latest number plates yet they are simply mitumba imports from Japan? Knowing how crazy and corrupt this govt is and how they bend rules to suit themselves, I don't see anything wrong with posing that question! Destiny This was an attack on Werunga and not you. The information he is asking questions on was available to me by 9 p.m. last night with a little effort on the internet. We knew that the chopper had not logged more than 300 hours which makes it brand new. The captain (and really sad that we have lost such an enterprising lady!!) had more than 1000 hours of chopper flying and had 100 hours on this particular chopper following training on the chopper in SA. There is little to defend Werunga for...if you are going in as an expert, if you do not have information, then ask for more time. The questions he was looking answers for really should have come from the journalists which also points at all round laziness on the media and its alleged experts.
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Post by afrigun on Jun 11, 2012 11:51:14 GMT 3
"If he wants to go the media as an expert, he should go to the media with the answers not questions!"@ KAMALE Let's be fair to Werunga for heaven's sake! How on earth do you expect him to go to the media with ANSWERS to an accident that happened just yesterday yet he's not even involved in investigations unless he's an angel? He didn't simply pose those questions and left for tea, he talked a great length trying to demystify the aviation industry. What he was doing was giving possible scenarios of what would cause such an accident since he's a trained pilot. I don't see why he should not be allowed to give his OWN views, which we do daily here in Jukwaa, furthermore these choppers are crashing from skies at an alarming rate costing lives! About the chopper being "new" in Kenyan context, well don't we see "new" cars in latest number plates yet they are simply mitumba imports from Japan? Knowing how crazy and corrupt this govt is and how they bend rules to suit themselves, I don't see anything wrong with posing that question! Destiny This was an attack on Werunga and not you. The information he is asking questions on was available to me by 9 p.m. last night with a little effort on the internet. We knew that the chopper had not logged more than 300 hours which makes it brand new. The captain (and really sad that we have lost such an enterprising lady!!) had more than 1000 hours of chopper flying and had 100 hours on this particular chopper following training on the chopper in SA. There is little to defend Werunga for...if you are going in as an expert, if you do not have information, then ask for more time. The questions he was looking answers for really should have come from the journalists which also points at all round laziness on the media and its alleged experts. one thing i note from the eyewitness account in the Nation is that the passengers apparently knew the chopper had developed a problem and that they were turning back to the airport, and the chopper was seen flying low for some distance before it crashed. why would a pilot continue flying a defective plane, especially a chopper which can land anywhere, any longer instead of landing it?
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Post by mzee on Jun 11, 2012 12:03:16 GMT 3
I think that Kenyans have a right to be skeptical about helicopters bought by GOK. Our government has on many occasions corruptly bought junk from Eastern Europe and tries to pass them as new stuff. We have then spent millions of dollars trying to resurrect the already dead copters. Remember the one that nearly killed Moody Awori? ”. www.marsgroupkenya.org/publications/pubs/junk_helicopter_full_report.pdfKenya air force has even bought junk jet fighters nairobichronicle.wordpress.com/2008/07/15/kenya-airforce-buys-junk-fighter-jets/We have even bought fishing boats and tries passing them for navy ships. It’s not we don’t have money to spend on quality stuff. We just like stuffing majority of the money meant to buy good stuff in our pockets. As soon as our junk kills some of us we start making excuses.
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Post by destiny on Jun 11, 2012 12:03:26 GMT 3
Now this is quite fascinating: From the same NTV show this morning, a certain caller who described himself as Hon. Nakitare (possibly former Trans Nzoia MP who is a frequent caller to morning shows) said he saw the chopper bellowing smoke from his home which is near Nakumatt Junction and immediately knew something was amiss. He even said he heard a bang from the low flying chopper. The caller also described himself as having 30 years experience in aviation industry. Old wives tales?
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Post by Omwenga on Jun 11, 2012 12:52:47 GMT 3
Rumors doing rounds in Nairobi is that Saitoti was silenced because of his political ambition. Its said that he was bent on dividing the central province vote, that's why he was eliminated by...you know who. Ojode is said to be collateral damage. Mzee,These rumors yawa, they actually turn everything on its head. Actually in my village since yesterday evening, fingers had started pointing the exact opposite direction to what you have here. The talk is that, Jakom has been fearing that Saitoti's candidacy was taking away the Maa thus effectively locking him out of all RV counties given that UhuRuto have run away with the other non-Maa counties. The conspiracy theorists also have it that Orwa had to be take out for his independence and perceived collaboration with the enemy (read PNU). Interestingly, all these are given credence by our own discussion here some time ago. Remember these words? ----- There is information leaking from the corridors of power that President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga have held consultations and agreed on a mini-cabinet reshuffle that will be announced in the next few days, possibly while Raila is away on a visit to the USA.
One major casualty of this mini re-shuffle will be none other than Joshua Orwa Ojode, the fiercely independent ODM MP for Ndhiwa and loyal assistant minister for Assistant Minister for Internal Security.
Ojode has been deemed by most Kenyans as the defacto minister for internal security given that he has been answering most if not all questions of this sensitive docket in parliament for as long as the grand coalition has been in power. Ojode has done a good job of being loyal to his work in parliament and steering clear of deadly ODM politics in Luo Nyanza.
But recent events, more particularly the alleged assasination attempt of Prime Minister Raila Odinga and the alleged abduction of Gitobu Imanyara may have forced PM Odinga to consider effecting a change-of-guard in this sensitive docket. The PM has been asked to consider replacing Ojode as ODM's minister in this high profile docket that has raised Ojode's political and personal premium amongst his colleagues. President Kibaki, PM Odinga and most of senior cabinet ministers were in Ndhiwa to attend the funeral of Ojode's father but the President and most of his ministers totally snubbed President Museveni's visit to Kisumu in the same region.
[/u] jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6881#ixzz1xSJZQZZy [/quote] Mwalimumkuu,, In other words this is your conspiracy theory you are laughably trying to pass on as coming from from your villagers who I can bet you 100 bob if I were I betting man that none of your villagers or anyone else but you has even remotely had such a thought. BTW, in your mind, a desire to replace Ojode or anyone in the cabinet for the sake of the sponsoring party equates to murder? You need to go to conspiracy theorism school and learn what passes the laughter test as a conspiracy theory. This one is too outlandish and laughable even conspiracy theorists and practitioners who hate Raila will only give you an F even for trying if they were to be honest.
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Post by Omwenga on Jun 11, 2012 12:58:52 GMT 3
I would want to agree with you,but the reality is that you are talking of an ideal situation,which can never happen under the current leadership. The replacement more especially the late George will definitely come from the PNU wing,why do I say so? The contempt with which PNU wing have treated ODM since the arranged marriage was consummated cannot be overlooked. It has always been the belief of PNU that ODM are mere outsiders & have nothing good to offer to Kenyans. So it is my prayer that politics aside lets mourn our departed Kenyan brothers as we hope that good judgement will prevail on the part of Baba Jim to do what is right for Kenya as a whole. Bob,I hear you but the optimist in me tells me let's keep pounding the message of hope and maybe it may find its way to some of these characters. If more Kenyans spoke loudly to many of these progressive ideals, they shall come to pass as they have in the past. So, let's keep at it brother and hope the rest will follow.
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Post by nereah on Jun 11, 2012 13:49:09 GMT 3
Now this is quite fascinating: From the same NTV show this morning, a certain caller who described himself as Hon. Nakitare (possibly former Trans Nzoia MP who is a frequent caller to morning shows) said he saw the chopper bellowing smoke from his home which is near Nakumatt Junction and immediately knew something was amiss. He even said he heard a bang from the low flying chopper. The caller also described himself as having 30 years experience in aviation industry. Old wives tales? some of the latest development: 1.kalonzo to chair the funeral committee. 2.public inquest on the death3.re-opening of the refurbished bunge postponed untill burial 4.mps to visit families of the politicians,pilots and security guards to condole. 5.county funeral committee set up to manage the funeral program of the pilots and security guards.
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Post by mank on Jun 11, 2012 15:51:44 GMT 3
This situation was avoidable or at least manageable on multiple fronts.
We put a minister and his assistant into motorized metal and send them into the sky, and while people on the ground can spot the metal billowing smoke, there is no sure mechanism of alerting the pilot as to the urgency of the situation. Choppers do not need airports for landing. So, clearly the pilot was not clear as to the gravity of the fault. He or she could have landed this junk before it came down on its own.
I am opposed to those who oppose a suggestion that the 2 officials should not have been in the same chopper. I think it is rather absurd that a whole government can disregard simple risk management approaches to this extent ... and now we see what can happen when we play bull-headed against risk!
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Post by einstein on Jun 11, 2012 16:17:35 GMT 3
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Post by destiny on Jun 11, 2012 16:30:28 GMT 3
Looks like after the last 24 hours of mourning, the ever resilient Kenyans have started to lighten up and even crack a few "jokes" if you would call them that. Just got this in my inbox:
How To survive In Kenya:
1. Watch how you drive before a speeding matatu bangs you.
2. Look up in case a chopper comes crashing.
3. Look where you pass in case a grenade explodes nearby.
4. Walk Zigzag to avoid stray bullets.
5. Careful where you sleep in case the building collapses.
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Post by mank on Jun 11, 2012 16:33:00 GMT 3
That would explain the event ... but scaring! You would wonder whether the past several chopper crashes have led to any twick of machine check up and security clearlance routine. There is a good chance that we are paying the cost of refusing to learn, in an environment where man is man's hunter.
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Post by phil on Jun 11, 2012 20:02:21 GMT 3
phil & all, i cant verify the authenticity of the photo in question but the star, yes, the star, has similar pictorial on its cover. That fake image is already causing problems for the star newspaper. thejackalnews.com/index.php?dll=1049&readmore=1
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Post by akinyi2005 on Jun 11, 2012 20:55:23 GMT 3
going by past experience it seems a little outside help is what we need to clear any suspicions. good to know that french investigators are already assisting plus the US has also offered to help(if requested) through NTSB and the FBI.
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Post by job on Jun 11, 2012 21:29:32 GMT 3
Condolences to the families of the bereaved the thought of their loved ones meeting such a horrific death must be very traumatic... I won’t pretend that the nation lost a ‘great anything’ in Saitoti he would have served the nation better had he stayed at the UON.He perfected the art of sycophancy & was the true definition of an ‘experienced’ Kenyan politician, a palatable Oloo Aringo.I’m not sure even his own constituents will miss him...death was kinder and welcomed him in the same constituency where he had been rejected and reinstated by the government of the day for the last two decades...how ironic As others have noted it the accident looks suspicious...there is a long list of people who would want him out...will it be a surprise if Lewis Nguyai becomes the new minister of internal security? Or Maybe Biwott is finishing the job with the Ouko issue & many Moi era secrets...time will tell if there is anything to the conspiracy theories... With Lewis Nguyai as new Internal Security minister, you can bet a few things: 1) The new Internal Security Minister won't be competing with BOSS for the Presidency; hence no constant looking over back or wishing for PNU's demise. PNU is now officially dead! One problem solved - easier succession.
2) Cooperation with ICC (asset freezes or enforcement of arrest warrants) will be guaranteed blocked by this loyal servant of the BOSS.
3) Internal Security bureaucrats can conduct their meetings at Jacaranda Hotel, from where Mungiki can snoop in.
4) Election matters via the provincial administration (stationed at GSU training school) can now be directly overseen by the loyal side-kick of the BOSS.
5) The BOSS is finally in-charge of formal and informal security apparatuses of the nation.
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Post by kasuku on Jun 11, 2012 21:56:47 GMT 3
I pray Raila is all ears and eyes and won't fly in the near future...that is as long as the Boss is still free and seeing bunking tables whenever he doesn't get his way.
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Post by Mobimba on Jun 11, 2012 22:05:17 GMT 3
My condolences to the bereaved. May the souls of the departed rest in peace. This article raises more questions. Suspicious internet failure, last minute change of pilots, bodyguards left behind due to weight issues, Saitoti being an Ocampo star witness etc. Ojode having been a stealthily ODM mole in matters Internal Security (which may or may not include leakage of the Raila assassination planning), the beneficiaries are obvious. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000059697&story_title=Sabotage,-failure-or-human-error?
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Post by raiswakesho on Jun 11, 2012 22:41:14 GMT 3
I have never trusted Kenyan investigators whether they're serving under NSIS, CID , Commission of Inquiries e.t.c
Did I just read somewhere that Internet was down at Wilson airport at the time of the crash? We've got real issues to deal with in Kenya but most importantly, it's high time we became serious with how we do business!
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